Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

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Originally Posted by Boofaceing

I dont play Scholar. I see that the most fighting on this boards happens over these type of things from War hating on Samurai and back and forth. My opinion is that they are advanced classes. An Advanced Samurai should not have a warrior holding a candle to them. A black Mage studies the White magics and he is then a Scholar and he should be able to well hold a candle to any of the other 2 magic groups. He is an advanced class, a scholar of magics, which if I recall not only from lore but just from a university, a scholar beats out a single mage skilled in one art anyways. Scholars possess great knowledge of magical powers, more so then a simple mage reading scrolls to learn his incantations as the game puts it.

Just my 2 cents, I am in for supporting advanced jobs being advanced. (Have seen you guys in action, it was pretty bad compared to others. My impulses were screaming 'Why didn't this guy just go BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM at the least?'. That was at lower level though, maybe it changes drastically at higher and the people argueing still have a point?)

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I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

The question now is if it is enough to help Scholars (considering on a ton of the Abyssea content you don't need a White Mage anymore, it might be for that at least baring procs).

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And the answer imho is "no".
Too early to tell, but it's not enough.
Still, it's a very very very welcome addition which will only make things better compared to the past.
We're not quite where we wanted to be yet, but we're definitely in a better position than we were before imho.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

As others have said, you are incorrect. It was specifically addressed in one of the Q&As that these changes would be for SCH main.

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I remember that, but atm they give a slight bonus to /SCH as well, Foldypaws tried it with me the other day as WHM/SCH on the test server, and he was getting a small bonus to the potency and to the lenghttime of the buff.

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

No. It wouldn't. People will always go with the least amount of jobs needed. A WHM is always going to be included in that group. SCH and RDM are vastly inferior to BLM when it comes to procs. You are *always* going to have a BLM in your group if you are smart. That makes the added nuking utility from RDM useless. (And if you are main healing on anything remotely difficult you are not going to be nuking.) The edge in preventing physical damage is also debatable given cureskin.
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We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

I gave the example of voidwatch, in which most of us still go with large groups. I said we always take a scholar to voidwatch. I was then told by Sotek I basically was a gimp who needed 18 people to do things with. I gave the example of old content in which people still screw around and lowman, like dyna. Then I was told lololdcontent. So what situations are you all talking about?

If we talking about Abyssea, there are probably 12 jobs left behind. Why is scholar a special unique snowflake that needs a niche carved out in abyssea. What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche? Are you not a support mage? Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer? Can you not main heal lower content? Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations? Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines? Trying to figure out the buffs that would make scholars happy.

Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche. Not sure at this point that can be fixed. In a low man environment a lot of jobs don't have niches. So those are some of my issues and questions.

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So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist,

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Asking to be capable is not the same as saying to be better than or to replace outright. It does, to an extent, mean replace but not in the "well we have a sch and a whm, lets go with the sch cause whm sucks" sense but in the "well we don't have a whm, but the sch can handle it" sense.

Yes some "lololdcontent" can be main healed by a sch, but most people want better general usability not "well its so easy anyone could do it".

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Why is scholar a special unique snowflake

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Because we're sch's? Its not like people don't petition the adjustments of their own favorite jobs. Yes sch isn't the only job behind in the race, especially in abyssea, that doesn't negate the need for adjustments.

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What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

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I don't usually do pugs, but with the people and friends that I run stuff with its never "sch sucks don't bring it" but instead "well what can we do with the jobs and people that are available right now" and by extension for me personally its "will I be useful on sch, or should I just switch to mnk and ask to borrow my friends character again whose whm I leveled myself just so I could cure with her instead of on sch." (I love both mnk and sch equally, so its not a matter of which job I prefer to be on)

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Would you like more procs than black mage

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You mentioned VW earlier, part of the issue is that yes you bring sch to void watch but soon sch won't have any procs that blm or whm can't have. This was always my concern in abyssea, not that I had so few procs, but the procs that I had were completely covered by another job. Like I said its not always a matter of "more than" or "better than".

I have no interest in replacing a whm if we have one, I'd like to replace one when we don't and I just don't really feel that capable when I've tried.

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Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche.

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Its true in a six man it can be hard to justify your slot, but as far as niches are concerned it feels like se tries but only half heartedly. Regain, enmity spells, libra, 12 minute haste two hour, these are all potentially niches that have all been given limited scope and utility. It really doesn't have to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Ank

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch

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Oh, that's good news then, I was slightly disappointed when he told me that :)

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We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

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Because it's impossible for Scholar to be equal to White Mage and Black Mage, right? Totally a ridiculous thought to want to see shouts for "White Mage or Scholar (or Red Mage)" rather than what we currently get which I (hope) don't even need to explain. One job should not be given sole monopoly over a position in a party, look no further than Abyssea White Mages for proof.

Granted the Stagger system has far more to do with that than anything else, but then again the majority of what people here want adjusted are no where near the level of adjustment you seem to think they are. The number one suggestion here is for Modus to actually land. The second is for Adloquium to do 2TP/tic, third Animus spells to not be worthless (+VE/tic and -CE/tic, just hire me already SE). Even something like Cure V has almost always been advocated as a high enmity spell, which would pretty much make a worthless spell which is only used in an "ohshi-" moment like Cure VI.

It's really not a hard concept for the game to involve inviting a Scholar (Dark Arts) and a White Mage or a Scholar (Light Arts) and a Black Mage, or any other variation on that; including inviting a Black Mage and a White Mage. I'm holding out on Lv.99 to seriously judge the state of balance between Scholar and White/Black Mage, but right now I'd certainly say it's something that's needed some adjustment (which we've possibly got for Light Arts now). Certainly other jobs need more attention, but this isn't the Dark Knight forum, so I'm going to stick to telling people who come here complaining about Scholar updates to shut up and continue posting suggestions for Scholar.

Sotek and others have dealt with most of your post, but I'll add a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche?

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If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Are you not a support mage?

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If we are, we're not a good one. Outside of Embrava, which was *just* added, what other useful support abilities do we have? WHM and RDM can now use Accession for their buffs and BLMs can give themselves weather and Klimaform, save for thunderstorm and voidstorm. And so help me if you mention Aldoquium or the Animus spells, things will get ugly.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer?

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Of course they can, but why would they want to? WHM can heal perfectly fine alone. There is no need for a secondary healer and if your group cares about efficiency, then having SCH in that role is a waste. You'd be better off with a BRD/WHM, who can add more support (as they rightfully should) and cover any additional healing that you could possibly need.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can you not main heal lower content?

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So can a PUP or a SMN. What is your point?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations?

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Excluding procs? Yea, nice try. On the majority of content that has procs, people are inviting BLM not for their nuking ability but for their proc'ing ability. SCH could nuke better than BLM and it still would not change anything. And if you're been paying attention to the comments in this thread, I'm pretty sure no one is unhappy with our nuking capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines?

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Would you like to not try and paint everything as black and white and overly simplistic as this? How do you go from reading complaints about SCH's only unique spell procs being removed and then ask if we want more procs than BLM so we can put them aside? Asking to be an effective healer on more content does not mean that it will obsolete WHM.

Your group always took a SCH to Voidwatch because 1) you go with 18 people and have everything you *need* covered 2) SCH actually had unique procs that would warrant bringing the job along 3)your LS leader isn't obsessed with being optimal.

Boost Aldoquium to 2tp/tic, fix the animus spells, implement tier II helices and make them procs (or just return to the pre-adjustment levels for tier I), have Modus Veritas actually land, and give us lower cast time on Regen spells and grant some type of bonus to them. That's what I want. Yes, it's a lot, but none of it will effect your jobs in the way you seem to think.

Oh, and SCH post incoming. They explain their intentions behind lowering the levels of the helices. I have to say, I don't get it. They wanted to give SCH more of a "scholar-like" role earlier on and at higher levels they can become better. . . Let's hope I am lost in translation. They do acknowledge the VW proc issue and admit that it has been discussed by the team.

Camate-san, we'll wait for your official translation of course! I was scratching my head on this one :)