So long as its not a static 1 absolute single upgrade? Yup. I've admitted less random = better, which is why i much prefer Synergy Augments over say, Trophies, or FoV failure. I never once implied or asked for a 100% complete random bumf*ck wth upgrade system. Nor did i expect them to implement one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
If they released Static upgrades with split paths and multiple rewards/outcomes like Magian trials, I would not complain, it gives me a choice, and i can pick my poison, so to speak. however if its just 1 absolute static upgrade, Its where I'm turned off. 1 Absolute static no choice upgrade might condemn the pieces, where as multiple options/varieties might actually help the useless armor be less useless.
However i really feel like you're not even bothering to read or understand my post, and instead just look for something to pick apart and ignore everything else...
Artifact Armor 4 idea
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08-16-2011, 01:01 PMKarbuncle
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08-16-2011, 01:05 PMSpankWustlerFor me, this would be like some watching a movie in which some dude discovers the Statue of Liberty or the Eiffel Tower on an "alien" planet. It's certainly not the first time a plot has twisted like this, and I probably saw it coming, but it would still be a little depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Also, it's kind of nuts that they didn't give any numerical examples. This basically just leaves the decision to guess-work and emotional reactions based on bad random augment systems used in the past.
It's like a circular room with the lights out. I'm running one way thinking I might reach the exit, Krabknuckle is running the other because it might be that way. Every fifteen minutes or so, we run into each other in a fashion that would make the Three Stooges proud.
Of course, it will turn out that there is no exit. Only Water Resistance +6. -
08-16-2011, 01:10 PMRakshaI'll admit I skimmed the last ~8 pages that were posted today, but I think I got the gist (also I generally only respond to the parts I disagree with). Anyway I don't see much point in doing it the sky/synergy way because it's basically static but with "fuck you" random pool augments thrown in to drive people crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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08-16-2011, 01:14 PMKarbuncleI agree, the system would need fine-tunning. But again, i think a better alternative would be Multiple Possible endings via Magian trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
Static people will enjoy it, and people who would want random... while it wouldn't give them exactly what they want, they would have the illusion of choice, i could settle with that.
However, I think if they improved on the Synergy Augment system (less Random pools? Idk) then maybe It could yield some headway on both sides of the debate... -
08-16-2011, 01:22 PMSpankWustlerI think this could be accomplished by just making synergy itself skill up faster, so more people would try and could understand the base system. It would also result in more people able to glue parts of pants to their own pants using a synergy furnace, which seems to be a sticking point in all of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
It mostly mystifies me that people keep mentioning synergy over and over after the SE post that basically said, "Hey, it might not be synergy either way, so stop talking about synergy." I'd think some of these folks' parents were crushed by a synergy furnace, leading them to dress up as bats and...uh...post about how they hate synergy, I guess. -
08-16-2011, 02:08 PMBabekeke
Static all the way please^^
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08-16-2011, 02:18 PMArcon
Yellow font on my items sucks, end of story.
As was mentioned before, immutable vs. influenced randomness. Pretty much every current "random" drop (that isn't augmented) you can influence somehow, and increase your chances to get it. There's tactical ways to approach the situation. The same can't be said for augments (at least not all kinds of augments, new synergy ones are different, but it's still limited). I'm not saying randomness in itself is bad, but how it is employed.
Another personal issue of mine that shows what I mean is this: I'm a perfectionist. I want the absolute best, always. If a NM drops a rare item with 5% probability and is heavily overcamped, I will camp it, day in day out, to obtain it. That's how I got Peacock Amulet, Trotter Boots, Velocious Belt, etc. and might have gotten Defending Ring if SE didn't botch that up. However, I know that some day, I will get that reward.
I do not know this with random augments. In probability theory it's the difference between a continuous random variable and a discrete one. For a discrete one, with a limited number of results, you can predict how long it will take you to get a certain result, since each has a probability (5% in the case of Velocious Belt for example). However, same does not hold true for continuous variables. Since there's infinitely many possibilities the probability for each one is zero, which means you'll never get what you desire. I know it's not quite as bad in this case, since there aren't actually infinitely many results, but the situation is similar. There's not "like 20 results you can be happy with". For me, there's only one possible result and everything else is a failure. And the probability to get that result is near zero, so the expected time I have to invest into it (and I'm fairly certain money as well) will approach infinity. That's not what I consider fun in this game. -
08-16-2011, 02:28 PMKarbuncleThe thing is, You don't know you'll get a reward some day. That 5% Drop rate could screw you time and time over, same as Random Augments. You just assume the random-number-generator will eventually favor you.Quote:
Another personal issue of mine that shows what I mean is this: I'm a perfectionist. I want the absolute best, always. If a NM drops a rare item with 5% probability and is heavily overcamped, I will camp it, day in day out, to obtain it. That's how I got Peacock Amulet, Trotter Boots, Velocious Belt, etc. and might have gotten Defending Ring if SE didn't botch that up. However, I know that some day, I will get that reward.
(I'm aware your final paragraph addresses most of this)
Think of it this way. The best Blade:hi Augments for Byakko's Haidate are AGI+6 Crit Dmg+4% yes?
Well, Whats the difference between getting tatters day in day out until you get the best augment? Vs as you put it "Camping the NM Day in day out til i get the drop".
Each one employs a random variable to get what you want, and with Synergy augments, You know the above combination is a possible.
I believe the difference between synthing an Augment, and not getting what you want, and Killing a mob, and not getting what you want, is very small.
The end result, You just come back and try again another day. I doubt this will change your mind, But i think you'll see i'm correct here. You know your goal because you want too, If my goal is "I want a AGI+6 Byakkos Haidate" and yours is "I want a Peacock Charm", We're both at the mercy of random number generators, and we both know eventually the numbers will favor us and we'll get what we want, and we both know the end result of what we'll get.
I know i wont stop until i get the AGI+6 Haidate, because its possible, Just like you won't stop til you get your drop, because you know its possible. Either situation we're both at the direct mercy of a Random number generator.
Do you see where Im coming from arc :\? whats the difference between setting the goal "I want a perfect Hecatomb Mittens" vs "I want to get xxx drop!", Both are goals you know are possible, and you know the outcome too, and both take time and are at the mercy of random number generators. With the augments I wouldn't say there is an infinite number of variables, The Synergy augments are very tame and it is rather easy to get what you want, as each has about ~5 "HQ" Augments to chose from, and you're getting 3 of those each HQ3 synth, if not a random pool one.
Also with proc's, If we're going to assume that every drop you want can be influenced by procs, We'll assume that Relic Armor upgrades would be via synergy, with a narrow list of Augments, and you can influence your luck greatly with HQ1/2/3 like the Sky/abjr armors.
Thank you for reading this :)
Edit: Edited for Clarity/Fixing some errors. -
08-16-2011, 03:20 PMArconActually I do know. It's a Markov chain with the following transition matrix:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
0.95 0.05
0.00 1.00
The probability of reaching state B from state A is 1. Although that's more philosophical as well, I do know what you mean. As I said, it's a game of chances, and with random augments, the chances are just plain worse.
See, that's another thing. Is it the best? We simply do not know. What if there's a 0.0001% chance to get AGI+7, only it's so rare no one's ever gotten it, or even if someone got it, didn't report it? That's another major gripe about this, we simply don't know what the best results are. Sure, after a while we'll have a rather decent idea, but it's still no way to know for certain. And getting that isn't easy as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Aside from the chances being a lot lower, as I said above, I can't even be sure it's the best. For a perfectionist like me that's a major flaw. I don't dislike randomness, I dislike the lack of clarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
And it's not just the chances or the uncertainty that bothers me, it's that there's no real progression. I hate the Mog Bonanza in the same way. You're not "working" towards anything. You're just standing there and taking your chances, time and again. With empyrean armor you get to do stuff, you get to work towards your goal and you see a progression. As someone said it before:
"With a static system, I know that after 25 NMs, I have 25 more NMs left. With a random system, after 25 NMs I'm still right where I started."
I don't feel like I'm actually working towards something, but instead just rolling the dice, hoping to win the lottery. It was why I hated the Bonanza too, it doesn't feel like I'm working towards anything, just standing around and hoping for the best. As I said before, it's just not fun to me, it's not what I look for in a game. It's a gamble, and I can see how some people are attracted to it (for that matter, I absolutely see where you're coming from, this is a disagreement of opinion), but I'm just not one of them. I could never follow that emotion myself.
I believe achievements should be based on effort instead of luck. For that matter, this is something I dislike about certain NMs as well, yet it's still different, because people do the effort just by camping it, waiting for hours and competing with three other parties, stuff like that, you first must be willing to put up with that in the first place. Besides, I don't know anyone who just got to KA, got claim in 5min and drop right away. However, I do know someone who got a rank 1, rank 2 and two rank 3 wins from Mog Bonanza. It's the same for augments, buying tatters and paying someone to synergize it I hardly count as effort, and it's easy to get "good" augments, but very hard to get the one augment I'm after, the best one. Whatever that may be. -
08-16-2011, 04:05 PMPyrobunny
they really need to make the af worth using...
"hey lets upgrade my af armor even tho it is shit and there are a million better peices out there"
only way thf af1+2 would be any good is if they added another TH peice.
as for relic+2 th+2 on hands maybe?
they really need to redo all the old af and maybe the relic to fit the jobs as they are used now....
just looking at the smn af1 hands make me die a bit on the inside and u guys want to upgrade it... failsauce