[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

People still arguing w/Dallas? He's clearly delusional.

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Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

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ITT: Melee Summoners have been beating relics for years now.

I have a parse of a BP/release Smn beating a V Bhuj War clearly this means your argument is invalid.

Korpg, you still pretending you know how to read?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Korpg, you still pretending you know how to read?

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Dallas, you still pretending you know how to DD?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I have a parse of a BP/release Smn beating a V Bhuj War clearly this means your argument is invalid.

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You have failed to produce it, so my point stands.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You have failed to produce it, so my point stands.

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You have also failed to produce your parse stating you have beaten a Ukon WAR. So your point still fails.

Korpg, I'm not maintaining 2 threads for you to play fanboy. This thread will die without me, so have fun.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Korpg, I'm not maintaining 2 threads for you to play fanboy. This thread will die without me, so have fun.

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You promise?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

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A SMN buffing the party will cause the party to do more damage and take less. Not to mention the support the the SMN gives will just generall help the party run smoother. Sure your SMN would parse higher but the overall differnce would be negligible if any at all. This of course is assuming we're fighting a monster that is weak enough to allow a SMN to melee safely on.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

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Obviously BP/release SMN won't produce parses since they are obviously dealing less damage than Melee SMNs. However damage output isn't the real draw of SMN in the first place.

There are way too many problems with Melee SMN for them to be applicable outside of Abyssea at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Obviously BP/release SMN won't produce parses since they are obviously dealing less damage than Melee SMNs. However damage output isn't the real draw of SMN in the first place.

There are way too many problems with Melee SMN for them to be applicable outside of Abyssea at the moment.

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No one ever said BP/release SMN can out DD SMN melee but it out supports it.

Why would any SMN just BP/release in Abyssea anyway, since that is what we are talking about.

Outside of Abyssea, only well geared SMNs can keep their avatars out indefinably.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Why would any SMN just BP/release in Abyssea anyway, since that is what we are talking about.

Outside of Abyssea, only well geared SMNs can keep their avatars out indefinably.

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I tend to cycle buffs if I'm in a party, although I don't spend that much time in abyssea other than soloing merits.

well, if you want to cycle buffs, who's to stop you?

My avatars are strong enough to take quite a few hits (with or without atmas) to just send one buff, BP about twice (more depending on what I'm fighting and if I'm in a party or not) and leave it like that.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

well, if you want to cycle buffs, who's to stop you?

My avatars are strong enough to take quite a few hits (with or without atmas) to just send one buff, BP about twice (more depending on what I'm fighting and if I'm in a party or not) and leave it like that.

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No one except the guys in the relic staff thread lol. It's just a way I've come to feel maximizes my contribution. This of course is outside abyssea/solo. If I'm solo it's assault BP resummon repeat til monster death

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Originally Posted by Razushu

No one except the guys in the relic staff thread lol. It's just a way I've come to feel maximizes my contribution. This of course is outside abyssea/solo. If I'm solo it's assault BP resummon repeat til monster death

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Actually, I think Al wouldn't mind having to cycle thru buffs.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Actually, I think Al wouldn't mind having to cycle thru buffs.

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Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

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I wouldn't think of the other people as anti-SMN, but more of broadly anti-melee-SMN and specifically anti-Dallas-ideaology brigade.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I wouldn't think of the other people as anti-SMN, but more of broadly anti-melee-SMN and specifically anti-Dallas-ideaology brigade.

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Nah I mean the ones that say I can't support a party lol

I've yet to meet someone thats pro-Dallas but himself, except the person that kept insisting SMN was like DRK or DRG(but even then there was less arrogance by far)

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Nah I mean the ones that say I can't support a party lol

I've yet to meet someone thats pro-Dallas but himself, except the person that kept insisting SMN was like DRK or DRG(but even then there was less arrogance by far)

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He probably meant broken jobs.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

He probably meant broken jobs.

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Nope said SMN was designed as a melee with MP like DRK and SE forgot to add the traits/abilities and goofed by not putting it on the same gear as DRK, DRG etc.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

DRGs are mediocre at best, the recent DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them, and rangers get absolutely 0 love.

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Drakesbane is still the strongest non Empyrean WS in the game and their AF3 is one of the strongest sets 5% haste feet and 6% haste head both with huge ACC/ATT bonuses)

Yeah Ukon WAR is better, but Ukon WAR is hax and is better than everything.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Drakesbane is still the strongest non Empyrean WS in the game and their AF3 is one of the strongest sets 5% haste feet and 6% haste head both with huge ACC/ATT bonuses)

Yeah Ukon WAR is better, but Ukon WAR is hax and is better than everything.

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I thought that math people decided that it comes down to buffs and situation regarding who wins in a contest between a perfectly-geared Ukon WAR and a perfectly-geared Ryunohige DRG?

(In any case, it doesn't really disprove your point, just thought I'd bring it up in case I'm mistaken)

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Nope said SMN was designed as a melee with MP like DRK and SE forgot to add the traits/abilities and goofed by not putting it on the same gear as DRK, DRG etc.

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I love how just skip mentioning that you yourself claimed it was like a WHM or BLM, forgetting to add the spells/abilities. (But I'll give you a gold star for being so smart that you can say that if SMN and WHM wears the same armors, they are the same job. Good job!)

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I love how just skip mentioning that you yourself claimed it was like a WHM or BLM, forgetting to add the spells/abilities. (But I'll give you a gold star for being so smart that you can say that if SMN and WHM wears the same armors, they are the same job. Good job!)

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I never claimed it was like a BLM or WHM don't put words in my mouth. SMN was designed as a PET JOB this is all I said. It is however far closer in concept to a WHM or BLM than a DRK. Take your vision of SMN to the DRK forums,see how many laughs you get before thread lock

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

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First off I never said that you can't gear a SMN to melee(every job in this game can be geared to melee). If the mob is safe to melee go ahead.

1)SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user

so is WHM, SCH and BLM

2)SMN has MP = DRK has MP

MP is not a melee trait see SAM, NIN and WAR

3)SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)

In a party SMN is probably cycling avatar's to give buffs unless the target is so weak the buffs are superflous(in which case go nuts lol). Solo unless the target is of kitten level danger the avatar will stay out til fight ends. If the monster is tough chances are you will need a recast, in which case hate=death if your avatar can't pull hate off you with a single BP chances are you are about to die.

4)SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

Except in this case BPs are pet commands, and are more akin to spells in fact are designed that way (Hastega= spell haste)

5)The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

what game are you playing? honestly

6)That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

again SMN=/=DRK

lets break it down

FF Canon* SMN=Backline mage DRK= HEAVY DD

physical toughness SMN=weakest in the game DRK= up there with the top tier

Gear SMN= CLoth armor DRK= heavy armor

Weapons SMN= mainly stat boosting DRK= DD mostly

Highest weapon skills SMN= B DRK=A+

access to weapon skills SMN= missing several DRK= gets all natively

Job traits SMN=non offensive DRK= pretty offensive

Job abilities SMN= supportive DRK = mostly offense based

*I know in this game it's not always the case, but for the most part it seems to remain true

I don't think I missed anything but a comparison side to side points out the flaws in your theory. For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

First off DRK can get a max of 18% cure potency(if the waste ASA and MKD rewards on it) have a tiny MP pool and not much in the way of MP management gear, Then add in the fact they have no native way of buffing/curing a party your and your argument has more holes than a fishing net. I can't decide whether your trolling or not and I kinda hope you are

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Originally Posted by Razushu

SMN=Backline mage

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For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.

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The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.

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Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.

The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play.

You mean like how monks can do lots of damage, but can't tank?

One problem right now is that everybody looks at the horribly broken jobs and wants to be equally broken. This is probably because they know that SE is afraid to nerf even the worst balance problems, so the broken uberjobs will stay that way.

Another is that nobody invites damage dealers to deal damage, so jobs like DRG and SCH which can do plenty of damage are still passed over because people only care about procs and those jobs don't have them. Once you have your procs covered you have enough DDs to kill whatever, so why bother inviting more people to split up the loot?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.

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Which kind of failed in the context of parties because of how the trends developed when it came to summoner.

Granted, the job is not an easy one to adapt to an MMO context. The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support. Then you could have your damage dealing avatars (probably Ifrit, Leviathan, Garuda, Ramuh), your defensive/healing avatars (Carbuncle, Shiva), and your tanking/utility avatars (Titan, Fenrir). Spirits could have been more like "aspects" that act as that second school of magic that I mentioned Summoners prior to XI were known to have. That might have created a better basis of what the job could/should be capable of instead of being so reliant on its subjob to fill in the gaps between blood pacts (this refers to back when it was a universal 1-minute timer, not the rage/ward split that came much later).

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The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support.

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No they wouldn't. The job is pretty much perfect as is, except for the penalties applied. It should be a moderate DD and moderate support, but it is a slightly below moderate DD and useless support. Less global timers, slightly less MP costs, more ward potency and viola, perfection.

Well, you'd have to tweak avatars favors too if you want to count it as useful, and same with spirits. But Summoners have all tools they'd ever need... if they worked.