The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

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Originally Posted by Anewie

Apologies, I worded it in the wrong place. Makes it look like im assuming those aren't your priorities. Also akuji, u should report whatever loser put that tag up. It's getting really immature. One things for sure, players still have no respect for eachother.

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It's ok, it's bound to happen, but I'll leave the tags up. I'm not the type of person who gets offended easily or reports others so quickly. If anything, it is just proof of their immaturity, so it's kind of like they're insulting themselves lol.

PS. I love you too, and I don't think your posts are that harsh. But people are generally afraid of someone with strength of character^^<3

And...

@Karbuncle. Please take a look at my post before this one. Don't you think that would be a good idea?

Well, Kinda. The idea of Balanced Casual and Hardcore content is truly ideal. But the problem is, if Casual content is met with equal rewards, The hardcore will complain the "hard way" should have better rewards.

If the Hardcore Rewards are better than Casual contents, Casuals will complain they're stuck with mediocre crap because they don't have the time/etc to do Hardcore Content.

Even though, in theory, more effort should = More Reward.

Its a tough call labeling something Hard-core. I personally thought Einherjar was "hardcore" due to its difficulty, not many "noob groups" Could tackle it, it took decent people. While some people only consider 21-24hr Kings "Hard-core".

The problem is, what would be labeled as "Hardcore", if its an Event like Einherjar, Thats actually great, because even though its difficult, its Available to everyone, any time of the day.

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Casual players don't have full +2 sets often, nor Empyreans, nor multiple full +2 sets ... etc.

Hardcore players are still allowed to excel, just not in having special "I botted this" drops like Ridill. You just end up further along a line of progression that everyone is on.

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Yep.

The better/harcore players on my server are definitely ahead of me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I accomplish what I can given real life constraints. What I *** love about Abyssea is that the best gear is accessible to everyone who wishes to pursue it. Very strong gear is very available.

I don't have an Empyrean, and I doubt I'll have one before 2012 rolls around. That's fine. I have the WoE Empyrean dagger along with about 10-12 other Magian daggers and staves, each one of them being a powerful weapon in their own right.

I don't have a single full set of AF3+2 gear. That's fine. I complete what I can, and as of this post, that I have 12 pieces of +2 gear: 4/5 DNC, 3/5 THF, 3/5 RDM, and 2/5 BLM. This is not impressive at all to hardcore players, but still a sizable number of players would love to be in my shoes.

I have lots of assorted r/ex drops from Abyssea ranging from an Atheling Mantle to a Hecate's Earring. I don't have all of the best gear, but I do have some of it.

I'll never have the best-equipped or best-played job on Asura. Ever. But I do aim to play and gear my jobs well, and that I can accomplish. They're all above average, solidly geared, and always improving. I'm happy with my progression thus far.

I greatly hope that, in the future, the vast majority of the game's content will be as accessible as Abyssea for players like me.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, Kinda. The idea of Balanced Casual and Hardcore content is truly ideal. But the problem is, if Casual content is met with equal rewards, The hardcore will complain the "hard way" should have better rewards.

If the Hardcore Rewards are better than Casual contents, Casuals will complain they're stuck with mediocre crap because they don't have the time/etc to do Hardcore Content.

Even though, in theory, more effort should = More Reward.

Its a tough call labeling something Hard-core. I personally thought Einherjar was "hardcore" due to its difficulty, not many "noob groups" Could tackle it, it took decent people. While some people only consider 21-24hr Kings "Hard-core".

The problem is, what would be labeled as "Hardcore", if its an Event like Einherjar, Thats actually great, because even though its difficult, its Available to everyone, any time of the day.

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

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agreed. Einherjar was hardcore but it was also casual too. I liked how quick it went. I remember dynamis gather/entry/stay time could get very boring. Einherjwas very quick-and-easy type stuff even if you timed out. Most people timed out as sopposed to wiping.
I miss einherjar and salvage more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Yep.

The better/harcore players on my server are definitely ahead of me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I accomplish what I can given real life constraints. What I *** love about Abyssea is that the best gear is accessible to everyone who wishes to pursue it. Very strong gear is very available.

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This is exactly how I feel. I have no problem with people who have played longer/who play more having better gear than I do. They always have and always will be better geared than I am.

I do have a problem with not being able to pursue the best gear in the game at all.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

I miss einherjar and salvage more than anything.

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They haven't gone anywhere...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

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Ok I agree with this as well. Claiming probably was annoying after doing it for years and years. But it still doesn't mean that there can't be SOME claiming type battles going on (for whoever liked going AFK to watch a movie between fights, or whatnot). I don't really consider botters, because cheating isn't in my vocabulary. But making the drops rare/ex was a smart move from SE to stop RMT, eventually lowering the amount of bots as well.

The gear issue would be solved by tipping the scale VERY slightly and offering something different. Something like WoW PvP Gear sets. There was an equally good set designed for Player Vs Player combat, but it had "PvP Stats" that made it more useful to players who wanted to PvP often. And then there was a Raiding Gear Set, that was designed for PvE combat.

But the same is possible for FFXI. You give the Casuals gear that works well while solo'ing/duo'ing/trio'ing in their casual content areas, but is not so crappy that hardcore players would never invite them to their events. Hardcore players would still be able to get all the content that is available to the casuals, and the casuals will still be on par with the hardcore players when it comes to gear types.

The only thing that would be different is that the casuals won't be penalized for not being able to put in long hours at 1 single time.

And what I mean by "Hardcore" is events that take more than a PT of 6 to complete. AND are difficult battles even with 18 people. I think the problem of the past was not the type of gear that these events/bosses dropped, it was how frequently you could attempt them AND how much stuff they dropped, just didn't satisfy all 18 people who came to the event.

I really believe this is possible, to have Equipment that is Equal in Power, yet Different Enough so that there is merit in having either/or for whatever situation or play style you prefer.

Casual players always want what hardcore players have without doing the work.

You can add all kinds of casual/solo events with gear that is almost as good as what the hardcore players have and the casual players will still be upset because they don't have what the hardcore players have (without doing the work).

The game right now is really well balanced in terms of casual and hardcore players. Hardcore players have a lot of Abyssea gear finished. Casual players have a few pieces of Abyssea gear finished but still have the opportunity to complete more.

I remember old FF11. I started playing a couple months after NA release. It was slow, annoying, and had me awake at 4am to try to claim Nidhogg against 200 other people doing the same thing. I don't want it back.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

Casual players always want what hardcore players have without doing the work.

You can add all kinds of casual/solo events with gear that is almost as good as what the hardcore players have and the casual players will still be upset because they don't have what the hardcore players have (without doing the work).

The game right now is really well balanced in terms of casual and hardcore players. Hardcore players have a lot of Abyssea gear finished. Casual players have a few pieces of Abyssea gear finished but still have the opportunity to complete more.

I remember old FF11. I started playing a couple months after NA release. It was slow, annoying, and had me awake at 4am to try to claim Nidhogg against 200 other people doing the same thing. I don't want it back.

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That is simply just not true. At least not about anyone who has posted here.

We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience. We don't want Systems like Kings where the challenge is the claim, not the fight. Or content where if you lose claim, You don't get to participate or enjoy what that content had to offer until the next window, so long as it doesn't interfere with work, School, or your sleep schedule.

We want content that while challenging, difficult, and enjoyable, is accessible by everyone. Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

...We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience...

...Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

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Like I said before. We won't stop hearing the complaining from BOTH sides. The only solution is to find a healthy balance between the two.

In my personal opinion, Abyssea does not "feel" difficult in areas at all. Instead it feels like a time sink with the illusion of progression. Battles are watered down in difficulty, and getting better gear just makes these battles even simpler, without adding many awesome, super powerful, well thought out, boss battles that actually require good gear in the first place.

Abyssea feels like a farm-fest, where people go shopping for equipment. But events like Nyzul Isle took some practice and teamwork to climb those floors. The problem with FFXI of the past is that, most SUPER powered up rewards came from "Hardcore Time Sinks" and not so much from actually "Hardcore Challenging Events" that required teamwork and rewarded more than just a few players who put time and effort into it.

Difficulty Level and Time Sinks are two very different things.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

That is simply just not true. At least not about anyone who has posted here.

We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience. We don't want Systems like Kings where the challenge is the claim, not the fight. Or content where if you lose claim, You don't get to participate or enjoy what that content had to offer until the next window, so long as it doesn't interfere with work, School, or your sleep schedule.

We want content that while challenging, difficult, and enjoyable, is accessible by everyone. Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

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That's why I wrote the second half of my post. I don't think it's a good idea to put in events that are so exclusive as to stop certain players from doing it or events that give consolation prizes that won't quite be good as the hardcore player gear. Casuals will still complain that that gear isn't good enough. Make events that are accessible to everyone.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

That's why I wrote the second half of my post. I don't think it's a good idea to put in events that are so exclusive as to stop certain players from doing it or events that give consolation prizes that won't quite be good as the hardcore player gear. Casuals will still complain that that gear isn't good enough. Make events that are accessible to everyone.

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Yah. Its a half motto of mine, but i believe people will always complain.

Which is why i also advocate a balance implied. However when it comes to rewards, there also needs to be balance in those.

its a very difficult job.

Don't know about decline...I came back after a 3 year break and I love the new direction. Just wish I had more time now a days to do more. Oh well. And yeah, i'd like more casual content, but its not really an issue for me. I just plan a Saturday or Sunday to be hardcore lol. Trying to get caladbolg is proving to be a little painful, but I think I'm just gonna drop the crests for a penitenance +2 (for my drk that is)

Edit: in the last month I've had 4 friends come back to the game...and they love the new game direction as well.

I remember always being someone who would dispute that the game was heading down a rocky path. I went around digging up numbers of subscriptions and searching up investor memos to prove it.

But to be honest I give the game a couple more years and it'll be a memory. In television the moves that SE are making to FFXI are considered "Jumping the Shark" .. it's a last ditch effort to avoid cancellation.

The things that made Final Fantasy ... Final Fantasy ... are slowly disappearing. It takes no effort to do anything now. I realized this when I returned and soloed BST from 75-90 outside of Abyssea and then King B was up and I soloed him with 4 pets. It wasn't fun or exciting I was sending tells to people basically saying "are you kidding me"

The biggest broken part of this game is that it takes no effort to do anything so building social links in the game are no longer there. The ties that keep people playing years are gone.

The path of a rare "new player" is one who joins the game and is level 11 in around 15 mins ( confused and getting bored ) finds a player to encourage them to dunes where they join a party ( 95% chance it has a Power Level ).. where they are level 20+ in an hour or two.. ( no concept of their job ) .. they ask around to get help with sub job and repeat the cycle.. ( still little understanding of the game and already in their 20s ) ... they head to Jeuno where they catch a Qufim party .. ( they stay there til 30+ usually ).. they see all these people talking about Abyssea so now they are getting annoyed because they want to be 90 so they shout and shout to be a key person because people told them that's what you do now a days..

They get a spot and reach 90 in about a week of starting the game... they have little to no understanding of the game.. good chance they built no social ties in the game.. they are now 90 in a job they aren't sure how to play in a game they are extremely new to... they get frustrated because no one will help them on the servers where they are 300-1500 players average during a day to do every aspect of the game so they unsubscribe and say screw it.

there's no walls to slow down these players and SE obviously wants them to level faster. I think their target now is to get atleast 1 month subscription out of people before they get bored and quit or try to get them to forget they are sub'ed and get the roll over subscriptions :)

sadly there's no game anymore. It's a broken social network with no real substance anymore. I was so excited about the upcoming world mergers but a lot of the players are quitting when it happens because they are bored with the ease of the game. There's no challenge anymore. And to those that think there is.. that's great that this is a challenge but it's literally one gold medal and a red helmet away from being the special olympics of mmorpg

The difficulty is certainly there. It's just buried under 200k brews. Just imagine though that you had to fight Rani or Shinryu without a brew. Yeah, that would be a plenty difficult fight. It was just the brew that made it easy mode.

Now we are in a position where they are making NEW NMs outside of abyssea where you can't just pop a brew and easy button something. As long as they make some of the new monsters equivalent to Rani or Shinryu then if anything we'll have players screaming the opposite that things are too hard. I expect some of these 6 man new BCNM fights to be plenty difficult (or course this is all meaningless if there aren't ample rewards behind them).

Seen more people quit over the grind back in the day then today. If the exp outside of abyssea was around 6 years ago this game would be better off. SE won't up and turn off the servers they already made back thier investment if anything SE will keep merging servers. Then if it gets to the point were profit from the last 2 or 3 servers no longer supports the cost to keep them up then they will pull the plug.

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Originally Posted by Yopop

The path of a rare "new player" is one who joins the game and is level 11 in around 15 mins ( confused and getting bored ) finds a player to encourage them to dunes where they join a party ( 95% chance it has a Power Level ).. where they are level 20+ in an hour or two.. ( no concept of their job ) .. they ask around to get help with sub job and repeat the cycle.. ( still little understanding of the game and already in their 20s ) ... they head to Jeuno where they catch a Qufim party .. ( they stay there til 30+ usually ).. they see all these people talking about Abyssea so now they are getting annoyed because they want to be 90 so they shout and shout to be a key person because people told them that's what you do now a days..

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You're trolling. I'm a reroller (so I actually have a lot of knowledge a total noob wouldn't) and it took me more than a month to get to 66. Getting to 90 in a week is not going to be possible for a utter noob who logs in not knowing anyone. I mean maybe it is statistically possible that 1 in 10,000 noobs will meet a bunch of level 90s when they first start who want nothing more than to steamroll them to 90, but yeah, unlikely.

I have a linkshell that is people I've known for quite awhile who have helped me out a lot. I even found a mog tablet on my first day back and got a lot of free exp from it. But, don't be ridiculous. No utter noobs are getting to 90 in a week.

Hell, I can't even figure out my way into Abyssea even WITH friends and at level 66 - let alone keywhoring on my first job to 30.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Hell, I can't even figure out my way into Abyssea even WITH friends and at level 66 - let alone keywhoring on my first job to 30.

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I hope you're at least stockpiling stones for when you do decide to venture into Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Aliekber

I hope you're at least stockpiling stones for when you do decide to venture into Abyssea.

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Oh yeah, I picked up the first x-pac as soon as I hit 30. I have something like 70 stones already saved up.

Karbuncle's and Raenryong's posts pretty much sum everything up, and those arguing against them are quite delusional if you ask me.

We want accessible content, which King HNMs are not. I also don't believe that needing 18+ people for an event makes it accessible, (75 cap Dynamis, Einherjar, ZNM at a certain stage, Sea at a certain stage, etc).

Yeah, cheap brews are pretty lol and make gear that would otherwise be rare rather common (Zelus Tiara, Twilight gear, Epona's ring). Other than that I don't see where the "QQ ABYSSEA SO EASY" is coming from in heroes zones, sure some mobs are easy, but most are challenging enough to have you second guessing every other pop. As for Visions and Scars, low level content is always easier.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I expect some of these 6 man new BCNM fights to be plenty difficult (or course this is all meaningless if there aren't ample rewards behind them).

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And it's exactly this mindset that is becoming a major problem for MMO's in general.

Now instead of the reward being one of teamwork and accomplishment (intangible things) to down a difficult boss, has turned into a cry out for bigger, better, cooler looking equipment/accessories. True satisfaction seems to be the real problem. Which is why I will always lean towards the side of the "Hardcore Players". At least some of them have a sense of what it means to achieve something for themselves and teammates, rather than have it handed to them on a silver platter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

It's sad to see, that such things are fading from the real world and now the game world. But things like teamwork and friendship was the idea from Square, when they decided to let the Japanese and English Speaking players play on the same servers. Noble actions like this, hold much more reward than any item ever could.

Get real, people have always only done content if they can see a benefit in it (or a benefit to one of their friends). Name one NM which drops nothing but garbage that anyone will hunt down regularly just for fun.

That doesn't devalue friendship and teamwork - but the game and every game like it is focused around friendship and teamwork in a way that revolves around achieving goals.

The reason why people don't do old content like Assault and campaign much anymore is the reward to effort ratio is too low compared to other things people could be doing.

Most of us play to have fun, but the fun is not just being with friends - what makes it epic is achieving goals.

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Now instead of the reward being one of teamwork and accomplishment (intangible things) to down a difficult boss, has turned into a cry out for bigger, better, cooler looking equipment/accessories. True satisfaction seems to be the real problem. Which is why I will always lean towards the side of the "Hardcore Players". At least some of them have a sense of what it means to achieve something for themselves and teammates, rather than have it handed to them on a silver platter.

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So these "hardcore" players pre-Abyssea would go and kill Vrtra and Jormungand regularly right? After all, these two fights are the epitome of "challenging fight, terrible reward". Were unclaimed Vrtras or Jorms a rare sight on any server, ever?

The focus and the driving motivation between any event in FFXI has always been the reward at the end. Of course you grow as a team and there is a great sense of satisfaction if you vanquish a particularly difficult adversary, but these are secondary bonuses. Without good rewards, nobody wants to do these fights and this is not a phenomenon that has suddenly occurred with the advent of Abyssea.

On a side note with Shinryu, I would hate this fight so much if it wasn't brewable. The droprates on the gear are ridiculous and though my record is an anomaly, requiring 6 people to engage in a challenging BC all for a tiny shot at a good piece of gear which they will all want is absolutely sadistic game design. I refuse to believe SE designed Shinryu with anything but mass brewing in mind. Personally, don't get me wrong - I'd prefer they made him unbrewable and instead you get a choice of his gear each time you kill him, but hey.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

So these "hardcore" players pre-Abyssea would go and kill Vrtra and Jormungand regularly right?

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You're picking out part of my post and not referring to other things I said in it. So I'll reiterate.

I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

It's not my fault that SE decided to sweep the current problems under the rug, regarding various NM's, spawn timers and whatever crap is in their drop table. What I AM saying, is that they decided to run away from solving the problems they already had, and create more with Abyssea. And I understand that you don't see Abyssea as a problem, but some of us do. Just because you don't give a $#!% about DEPTH and DYNAMICS, doesn't mean that others share similar thoughts.

Telling us hogwash such as "If you want more difficulty, then go fight Shinryu without a brew", implies that we're completely retarded. The fact that brew is even available, means that bosses are just going to be cakewalk, and why WOULDN'T we take advantage of this?

But realize this. That everyone who quit because they figured out Abyssea is just a farm fest for casual "mall-rats", is not bothering with these forums. They know it's just people crying to the Dev's, about how much faster/easier things should be obtained/accomplished.

I'm finding this interesting. Like how every generation sees a distant time as a golden era were things had more meaning or value, when in fact its not the case.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

But realize this. That everyone who quit because they figured out Abyssea is just a farm fest for casual "mall-rats", is not bothering with these forums. They know it's just people crying to the Dev's, about how much faster/easier things should be obtained/accomplished.

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It's the same with most of the casuals, there's only a slight few who actually post in a forum compared to those that view it in the first place, and there are even less people who care about these forums at all rather than just stay in the game.

Yeah, there are a lot of people who quit because of abyssea and level cap raise. But there are a CRAP TON MORE that started playing again because of all this new wondrous stuff. And then there's always the declining rate at which FFXI loses players because it's a really old game, and has freaking horrible advertising so there's not much influx of new players.

After reading over several pages and doing my best to ignore any derailments from the original post I've come up with this to say and/or add in response to the initial posting.

In regards to the forums being a pure distraction to nullify or pacify players:
While there is no doubt that many, if not all, of the design elements directly in place within FFXI are there solely for the purpose of creating longer play times and extending user subscription, I sincerely doubt SE is conspiring against us to distract us from focusing on the things a lot of posters claim aren't getting done or simply brushed aside.

I very truly believe that the new heads of the development team are desperately looking into every single way possible to extend the life and maintain the subscriber base of FFXI. Its no secret how poorly FFXIV is doing, but what most people also aren't aware of, Square-Enix as a whole, while still incredibly more fiscally capable and stable than a lot of developers, is currently at an all time low in their stocks. Now, that's not to say they're dying, but they reported earning a meager 12% of their projected earnings during the last fiscal year. Even with just 100k subscribers, far far under FFXI's actual subscriber numbers, SE is still earning approximately 1-1.5 million in gross profit every month. That said, FFXI is a staple of income for the company, the last thing they would ever do is neglect, ignore or devalue its importance.


Secondly, regarding the loss of nostalgia and the changing face of FFXI's battle systems:
The OP stated here:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Slowly and slowly, the colorful battle system, (that in my opinion made FFXI the classic it is) is slowly vanishing, in favor of the "solo" mindset. You can solo to 90, you can solo Abyssea, you can solo so many things now... And that's great and all, but it really takes away from what makes a good online RPG...

Not to mention how far the difficulty level has decreased or changed. The mobs and bosses are ALOT easier. The only difficulty now is just fighting with one another on who gets to pop what first. I also hear there is a new coming idea, to make an Abyssea like scenario outside of Abyssea. Again only decreasing the difficulty level and adding further imbalance to jobs more and more.

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Now, I can fully sympathize with where the OP is coming from. Having joined six months before the Treasures of Aht Urgan expansion came out I am all to familiar with the way things used to be. But, on that exact same note, I am all to familiar with the way things used to be.

Try not to misunderstand me, I loved the old methods, but they were and are, redundant within the current world of FFXI. I've leveled just about every job at one time or another and played each type of party role and enjoyed just about all of them. The one thing that always stood out to me though was that while the system was enjoyable, its effort vs. reward ratio was always so defeating. The system frequently punished players that didn't want to fit into the standard preset roles the community had established as the right way or the only way in their eyes. This was of course not an issue with the community so much as the result of an unbalanced job system. There were and are to many overlapping roles.

Jobs didn't stand apart from each other enough to the point where certain jobs were ignored or forsaken in favor of easier use applications. The most prevalent example of this was post the ToAU expansion when Black Mage suddenly became a useless job as of level 55 because of the nature of the most commonly preyed on enemies. But in converse, the BLM job was highly coveted in end game scenarios, both pressuring and punishing players that wanted to level BLM.

The old system was interesting and well thought out, but in my opinion it was far from nostalgia worthy with its limitations on user friendliness.


Which brings me to the first part of the OP's conclusion:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

What I'm saying is. Actually listen to peoples ideas. Give us FUN things, not just empty promises and false hopes. Give us a difficulty level where we feel a sense of accomplishment and teamwork after downing a boss, or completing a tough quest. Give us LESS of this annoying grind and bland tasteless jobs that play very similar to one another.

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Fun things are so subjective. The best example I can offer to the futility of adding in fun things are the endless cycle of seasonal events. No doubt at one time or another any player that's been subscribing for more than a year has already participated in and taken to completion every seasonal event that they felt had use to them. But, what do we do when these events come around the next time? How many of us find the repetition of these at one time new and fun events to still hold any level of fun or entertainment at all?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new content, but adding in fun merely for the sake of fun accomplishes only a small respite in the monotony of the repetition that a MMO really is. Which really harks back to the youtube video the OP linked to. Adding in content for content's sake is just that. These fun things are more time spending distractions, not actually fun things. Again, I'm not against more, I just don't feel the need of adding in things that entertain outweigh the need of fixing the numerous things that still need balancing.


And now to the final point made:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Do away with this bitter competition between players, and give us what we felt back when FFXI first came out... A lasting colorful world, where the little things are important too.

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Any observations about RMT aside, competition has always been a part of FFXI. I have friends that recall clearly the horrors of camping Valkurm Emperor against a hoard of dozens of competing players. While I'll eagerly admit that the competition factor of the game is often one of its most demoralizing and rage quit inducing stresses, its also one of the few things that rewarded the player with an intense sense of personal accomplishment. I still feverishly recall my first victory over a highly camped notorious monster, the adrenaline thundering through my veins both from the battle that was dangerous and the thrill of barely out claiming the various other campers left me feeling drained but extremely excited and very happy afterward.

There's nothing wrong with competition, only with poor competitors. Small subtle changes to the existing systems, friendly discussion with your competition and a cool reasonable response to being out-anything'd can make one's game play significantly better.

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In closing I share one of my favorite quotes on nostalgia:
"People seem to get nostalgic about a lot of things they weren't so crazy about the first time around."

I hated the game so much that I continued to play it back then. Got it.

Whereas I liked the game so much, I put up with really irritating crap for a long time. I can't say I miss a lot of it.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

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I've been in the end game scene since 2004. The majority of the focus of high level players has always, without wavering, been "phat lewt". If something did not drop something useful people would not fight it, ever.

The only reason most people did Zilart missions was sky access. Even now there are people who have not finished off the mission line because there isn't any point beyond the earring.

I'm not sure what game you are remembering, but it is not Final Fantasy XI.

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And I understand that you don't see Abyssea as a problem, but some of us do. Just because you don't give a $#!% about DEPTH and DYNAMICS, doesn't mean that others share similar thoughts.

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No, I just understand game mechanics well enough that I can tell you that there was no greater depth or dynamics at 75 in the majority of instances.

The only real difference nowadays is that you require less people on a fight-to-fight basis. Needing bodies doesn't add any depth. If SE added an NM tomorrow which was just a standard crab mob but unless you had 18 people it wouldn't take any damage, you wouldn't call it a fight with a great amount of depth, I hope.

Dynamis Lord: zerg
Proto-Omega: absolute joke.
Proto-Ultima: standard tank affair, make sure your tank(s) have an MDT setup.
Genbu: lol.
Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Kirin: zerg or kite while you kill adds, then kill it.
Almost all Jailers are more of the same. Love/Prudence are somewhat different.
Faf/Nid/Behe/KB/Ada/Aspid are all and were all easy and easily killable lowman, though you wouldn't see this because of the claim system. Not much depth in these either.
Wyrms: tank on ground, equip mdt set in air. Kite away adds.
Vrtra has depth if you don't zerg it.

I'm not seeing the great amount of depth here. That's not to say that Abyssea fights are the most profound monster battles ever created, but I think you have a serious case of the rose-tinted glasses.

I think things such as Assault, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis and Salvage qualify as better examples.

There was simply more variety between events which Abyssea lacks. Assaults had different quirks, Nyzul had the random factor going for it, Einherjar was a legitimate higher-manned event (I still hated it), Dynamis had pulls that made people feel all special inside and also was a higher-manned event (i hated it but some people enjoyed ventrilo with this).

Abyssea basically negated the entire game worth of content. Everything converging on one place removes the dynamic factor. Lights were an interesting quirk until SE went overboard with the zone-wide buffs in Heroes areas that basically do half the work for you.

While I completely agree that most of old XI was basically mindless zerging or shouting at the PC cause nothing dropped, the variety was welcome and given the future of the game we're unlikely to ever see such variety again.

I'll agree with that.

I think we'll see that variety again some time soon.

Gotta also remember while We did have Salvage, Einherjar, etc at 75 for a while, We were 75 for a very long time, it took SE years to give us all that variety of content.

Right now we're level 90, we keep thinking about it as "Above 75" when we should be thinking about it as "Level 65 compared to 75". Since in reality the new cap will be 99.

When we hit 99, I'm sure there will be a lot of Variety in end-game activities eventually. FFXI Endgame wasn't built in a day, and while Abyssea is one event, it was a refresh change of pace over old-FFXI with A LOT to do. Quests, Mission bosses, multiple NMs, the Exp, Dominion Ops, Bastion(LoL?), Bastion Ops, etc. While I know and hope Abyssea will end, Its a transitional period, We'll have variety again soon :O

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.

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Rng shadow bind work just as well (excluding Byakko lol two hour) if poeple listened and is better if your lowmaning and have more then one pop or plainning on doing all of them in one nite.

I would ignore Olor. He's stated himself he has no experience with anything endgame, not even abyssea. He has no clue what its like.

The reason why the forums are in such a terrible state is because they were introduced way too late. That much is obvious. The reason they weren't introduced sooner isn't as clear. When I spoke to a community manager about it at GDC he said the company(didn't specific who) wanted forums to be in the hands of the community. The cynic in me says this was a managerial style cost reduction method combined with insular thinking of a Japanese company. We can see what good it did to both the community and the game. We have a bunch of mouthy pissed off people with terrible ideas and a game that is stuck in the previous generation of console hardware.

Hopefully the community managers actually reading these forums will find a way to put the frustration and angst into a tangible form for the people making decisions to see (often referred to as "the breaks").

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

How does a job becoming a bandwagon effect how you play the job in any way shape or form?

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I was overlooking this thread, and I had to comment on this particular quote. Recently in other threads, I've been discussing balance when it comes to jobs. So in one aspect, this quote makes sense. But in another, this quote is completely biased.

Jobs becoming "bandwagon" doesn't affect that particular job. It affects other jobs.

It brings imbalance to the game. This imbalance causes favoritism amongst the player base, and this favoritism towards jobs, causes them to exclude other people from events/battles/quests, etc, simply because they do not have the "required job".

I know the cliche thing to say is... "Well then go level a useful job". But this not the answer, and this is where FFXI fails, where MMO's like WoW succeed.

At the risk of being flamed for bringing World of Warcraft to the discussion, Blizzard did not consider that people would play more than 1 character/class/job when the game was developed. They created each Class with the understanding that everyone should be included, regardless of whatever race/class/role they play.

FFXI's past and current trends of "bandwagon jobs/subjobs" seek to create so much imbalance, that any further development without the consideration of "all things being equal", will upset a mass majority of the player base that are either new/returning or simply like the job they play because of nostalgia/role-play reasons.

People didn't level the job they like, only to have everyone around them say "Oh... Didn't you know? That job sucks".

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

No, I just understand game mechanics well enough that I can tell you that there was no greater depth or dynamics at 75 in the majority of instances.

The only real difference nowadays is that you require less people on a fight-to-fight basis. Needing bodies doesn't add any depth. If SE added an NM tomorrow which was just a standard crab mob but unless you had 18 people it wouldn't take any damage, you wouldn't call it a fight with a great amount of depth, I hope.

Dynamis Lord: zerg
Proto-Omega: absolute joke.
Proto-Ultima: standard tank affair, make sure your tank(s) have an MDT setup.
Genbu: lol.
Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Kirin: zerg or kite while you kill adds, then kill it.
Almost all Jailers are more of the same. Love/Prudence are somewhat different.
Faf/Nid/Behe/KB/Ada/Aspid are all and were all easy and easily killable lowman, though you wouldn't see this because of the claim system. Not much depth in these either.
Wyrms: tank on ground, equip mdt set in air. Kite away adds.
Vrtra has depth if you don't zerg it.

I'm not seeing the great amount of depth here. That's not to say that Abyssea fights are the most profound monster battles ever created, but I think you have a serious case of the rose-tinted glasses.

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Many of the CoP battles had depth back before the cap was raised. Diabolos Heart, Diamond, Spade, and Club was also a very well designed battle. AV has depth, but no one has the pressure suit required to go to that depth (without zerging him). The sad thing is the greatest battles SE has ever designed either weren't designed to be repeated(missions), have no substantial reward(Dynamis-Tav), or were way beyond the scope of possibility (oldschool AV and PW).

VNMs were pretty well done, I think. A little easy now that the level cap has been raised and 25% of players have an empyrean, but just take a look at Yilbegan's wiki page. Tons of info in there, and they're still missing some stuff such as his shadow, and his mini rages.

Salvage was brilliant, though again, too easy now. And to be fair, it also suffered from old-dynamis-syndrome where you could do an awesome run, yet get zilch.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

I think things such as Assault, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis and Salvage qualify as better examples.

There was simply more variety between events which Abyssea lacks. Assaults had different quirks, Nyzul had the random factor going for it, Einherjar was a legitimate higher-manned event (I still hated it), Dynamis had pulls that made people feel all special inside and also was a higher-manned event (i hated it but some people enjoyed ventrilo with this).

Abyssea basically negated the entire game worth of content. Everything converging on one place removes the dynamic factor. Lights were an interesting quirk until SE went overboard with the zone-wide buffs in Heroes areas that basically do half the work for you.

While I completely agree that most of old XI was basically mindless zerging or shouting at the PC cause nothing dropped, the variety was welcome and given the future of the game we're unlikely to ever see such variety again.

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I really wish that they would bring back a salvage type event. That took some planning/people knowing what the hell to do. and it was challanging/fun. Well to me it was.