Concerns about SCH.

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

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Originally Posted by Pebe

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

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I hate to be negative nancy, but it seems like instead of getting better cures they're gonna give us more useless -enmity. DO! NOT! WANT!

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Originally Posted by Pebe

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

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Not really.
The idea behind giving a trait to do the effect of Cure V/VIs enmity bonus is completely undo if Scholar and Red Mage both get the same trait. If anything that just allows Paladin to have Cure V with proper hate gain, though this announcement mentioned nothing of adjustments to Cure Vs hate gain nor did it have a "Part 1" on the end, no doubt we just gained -5 Enmity again.

I'm going to say this now, SE. Stop doing anything with enmity. You can't pop up one day and decided "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Scholar kind of controlled enmity?" and then go completely ruin that idea by making hate gain a complete joke for every single job. It's bad enough your idea of control is watching and awful spells. This role is completely worthless, White Mage certainly doesn't need this new trait, they don't gain hate at all as it is. Almost every DD that would have to worry about hate gain can basically tank now anyway. Black Mage can just wipe its hate clean. Seriously, what am I meant to do with Libra and the Animus spells? Animus spells do virtually nothing and Libra is just brilliant without any means of acting upon the information (no, stopping is not a viable action to take). They're almost completely worthless at this stage and they're becoming increasingly so every time I think about them. Either give us a reason to control enmity (enmity based buffs and spells to adjust actual enmity levels, not adjust enmity gain) or just do away with Libra and Animus and give us Storm II and Helix II like everyone was expecting to get post Lv.75.

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobs

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Originally Posted by Ordoric

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobs

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I'll pass. I can main heal just fine as it is, though with a bit of luck involved, which is why Cure V couldn't hurt.
Next you'll be telling us to stop nuking right? Lets ignore the basis for each arts and focus on a hideously awful buffing system. Yes, Scholar buffs... Go through those with me for a second (try to use proper spelling and grammar, though)? No seriously, list them. I want to know exactly what it is I should be doing rather than using 4/5 of my spells and stratagems.

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Originally Posted by Ordoric

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobs

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What? seriously? Back in the day when I didn't want to main Heal as SCH I was told to do so and now all a sudden I am told not to do my job? Next you'll tell a RDM to stop Enfeebling.
Matter of fact, why don't you just tell us to stop being a SCH.

Sorry sir, no can do. I like SCH I just don't like how underrated my job is now, go level another job you say? NO U, I like SCH and I refuse to play a job that I absolutely hate because they have a higher tier of cure and get absolutely no hate whats so ever when cure bombing people . I'd be damned to sit here and have someone tell me SCH is useless go level WHM to get anything done.

I agree with Sotek's enmity frustration here. It's silly to me that SCH is "kind of" given something unique to do in its weather and enmity control abilities, but those abilities are so underwhelming that even casting them in most cases is a laughable waste of time. Then to add an enmity down trait to cures for all healing jobs makes the enmity control abilities even more useless. I love the concept of both of these unique SCH functions, I just wish that trying to apply them resulted in something other than a cool visual or sound effect.

My only hope for this is the bullet under the job trait list:
"Certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities."

This could be very redeeming, say, if Tranquil Heart were greatly influenced by Animus Minuo, or if this trait is what turns out to be affected by the currently (I think) broken "Enhances Addendum: White Effect" on Savant's Gown.

Here's hoping that SE has hidden a surprise for SCH in this mysterious comment.

@ Sotek, Like all job traits, there are different tiers as you increase in level. The goal that we had set forth was for there to be a job trait that gives whm the same amount of hate with cure V if its special enmity properties were moved, while giving the other jobs access to cure V with increased hate. Now if Tranquil heart works like I hope it will be something like this:

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

This allows for the possibility of implementing cure V to other jobs other than whm, without encroaching on whms supreme healer territory due to massive hate gain. SCH is very good at mp efficiency and as Kaeko has shown time time again, enmity mitigation via Enmity- sets. There are also the special properties of our scholar's gown +2. Keeping all this in mind, one can see how this job trait can be used to balance introducing Cure V without its special hate properties to the jobs listed, while still maintaining balance to the jobs. Sch will encroach on whm's territory but never surpass, RDM will be behind both in terms of curing. This is how it was meant to be. I'm pretty sure this was the consensus that we came to in this thread of how Cure V could be implemented. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Edit: @ Sotek: If you go just one page before this one Sotek, the first post on the page is a comment about this exact type of job trait, that you said you were hoping for.

Edit 2: I realize that this is only half of the solution. The other half involves changing and implementing Cure V as we stated, but that is what I'm hoping they are going to do. This Job Trait opens up a few possibilities in that field.

@Pebe: What you're saying is the kind of thing I'm hoping for with the mysterious note about traits being affected by equipment, spells, and job abilities. The only problem is presumably Cure V won't appear for RDM and SCH until the level cap raise in August, so we'll still have to wait 3+ months after the May update to see. I'm also hoping this is only job adjustments post #1, and that there are more of the adjustments people have asked for coming in May. Most notably, Cure V for RDM, SCH (under Add: White to take advantage of the AF3 gown property), PLD with different tiers of Tranquil Heart on RDM, WHM SCH controlling the enmity correctly.

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Originally Posted by Pebe

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

Edit: @ Sotek: If you go just one page before this one Sotek, the first post on the page is a comment about this exact type of job trait, that you said you were hoping for.

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Yeah, a comment by me, so I think I know what I was expecting. Giving this to Scholar and Red Mage just voids what I suggested. At best I was expecting something like this for White Mage only, maybe with two tiers available through sub job. Just giving it two us just makes my idea of getting Cure V less balanced. The level difference between Scholar and White Mage gaining this is only 9 levels, I'd be surprised if we get more than one tier lower than them (and fyi, Red Mage obtains the trait before Scholar, they're more likely to have a higher tier than us).

The idea behind putting Cure V/VIs effect in a trait was so that White Mage could keep the effect while we get Cure V. I shouldn't complain but this almost completely undoes that, assuming we even get Cure V. And really, if Merton is right and Animus spells effect this... Well, why bother in the first place? We'd have automatic access to the same tier if not better than White Mages through the spell, they might as well have just given us Cure V as it is if they're going to ignore balancing it. The idea behind Animus effecting it is nice, but if you have a Scholar main healing, you wont have a White Mage or if you have a White Mage, no Scholar. Couple that with the fact that White Mage is already completely unneeding for any hate reduction and the Animus aspect of the trait benefits only us. Unless the new Voidwhatever event is going to require more than 4 people, that is.

Hate control in the current game is a complete joke. Actually, I think this could just be nothing more than a response to something else I've mentioned. I've said plenty of times that I manage main healing with Cure IV, with hate becoming an eventual issue, ironically the job meant to control hate is one of the few that actually can have issues with it. This would reduce that as it effects all cures, I'm not assuming we're getting Cure V until I read it.

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Originally Posted by Pebe

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

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RDM gets the trait before SCH, so there is no way they will get a lesser tier than SCH far more likely for it to be the other way around, I'm guessing:

WHM
Tier I - 21
Tier II - 41
Tier III - 61
Tier IV - 81
Tier V - Possibly 91

RDM
Tier I - 26
Tier II - 46
Tier III - 86?

SCH
Tier I - 30
Tier II - 60
Tier III - 90?

The only thing they need to fix about SCH is the ability to proc something uniquely in Abyssea/Voidwatch and let us hit 96.

We may or may not get Cure V. I wouldn't be surprised if SE drop the fixed enm value for V and rely on tiesr of tranquil heart instead. Opening it up to RDM/SCH/PLD.

Well we proced something yesterday in voidwatch with Enmity Douse, I'm betting 100k gil that Libra is a proc as well.

Any idea what they changed to Perpetuance and Immanence? I'm guessing Immanence Skillchains can actually resist now...

Absolutely not, cure V for sch will kill whm. Sch already has better nuking ability than rdm and with the right gear can nuke on the same level as blm. The concept of cure V for sch is outrageous, sch gets the ability of rapture at 55, a rapture cure V with a magian cure staff pot 22%, ASA cure pants 5%, augur's gloves or serp set, acp cure head peice 3%, a cure earring 5%(forgot the name but it drops from wotg campaign bcnm i think) and a flygia cure torque almost caps cure. Hers what the ability rapture has to say in the wiki:
■Potency increase is 55% while wearing Savant's Bonnet +1, 60% while wearing Savant's Bonnet +2
just looking at that is outrageous to think that you can have tier 5 single nukes anf tier 5 cures.

Now, the second part i have a problem with is the tier 5 nukes for pup and sch, at what point is blm going to be given a decent lead in nuking, the blm af3+2 body has no int on it, please SE stop gimping my jobs and giving other jobs the same abilities. Why play whm or blm if a decently geared sch can do both without a subjob?

Do you seriously expect us to use rapture every time we use Cure IV? Seriously, do you even have a SCH? =\

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Absolutely not, cure V for sch will kill whm.

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You're not allowed to say this without actually countering every point I've made every damn time someone else has said the same damn thing. Seriously, this is the last time I'm telling a WHM what makes their job good.

WHM isn't top because of Curing power, it's top because it doesn't pull hate. Ever. WHM has near-zero enmity gain thanks to SE lacking foresight. SCH with Cure V, which just about everybody here agrees should be given with normal hate gain, would be a joke. I can already manage with Cure IV assuming the fight doesn't go on too long (because of hate), if Cure V gave more hate than Cure IV it's nothing more than an emergency spell, which I want, because relying on Quick-Magic isn't very good. When SCH can cycle Cure V > Cure VI like a robot with zero repercussions come and complain. As it is I can spam Cure IV with quite serious repercussions, so I don't see how that can ever happen.

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Now, the second part i have a problem with is the tier 5 nukes for pup and sch, at what point is blm going to be given a decent lead in nuking, the blm af3+2 body has no int on it, please SE stop gimping my jobs and giving other jobs the same abilities.

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You're complaining about BLM AFv3? Really?

Do you know why SCH and PUP get the top tier nukes? Because not having them would make both next to worthless. SCH is meant to act as a nuker and one of the PUP frames sure as hell is meant to be too. RDM gets tier IV because it's a jack of all trades, master of none. BLM, PUP and SCH are all meant to be expert nukers, the only thing that sets BLM apart is that it specializes in nuking, that's why BLM gets AM/-aga/-jas, Elemental Seal, superior traits, superior base INT and superior gear.

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Why play whm or blm if a decently geared sch can do both without a subjob?

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Because you enjoy WHM or BLM? I don't know. Or maybe because you want to proc !!, which SCH is absolutely awful for.
But by all means, go a head and replace both BLM and WHM with a single SCH. We can't cast Thunder V and Cure IV simultaneously, you either have a BLM and a SCH acting as a WHM or a WHM and a SCH acting as a BLM. You'll never see a SCH be both the main healer and main source of magic damage. Come back when you understand the concept of hybridization.

As I've said before, I do think SCH needs something. But I don't think that "something" is Cure V. Before the update, I didn't like SCH because I was tired of being told I should drop WHM for SCH. Now, SCH has tons of down falls, and I see no reason what-so-ever for anyone to level it, outside of Libra. I thought Libra was pretty cool.

The way I see SCH could be fixed, and make me actually want to level it, is, as some people have mentioned, a HOT spell greater than regen would be pretty cool. The second is, make Rapture a JA that doesn't rely on a charge, and make the recast be something almost nearly broken. Those 2 things alone would make me want to level SCH. I'm addicted to healing jobs. Slapping Cure V and taking away the set enmity on it would not make me want to level SCH.

Also, while I do agree that WHM would still be the better healer even if SCH got Cure V, others might not see it that way. You have that spell to reduce your enmity gain, or something to that effect. Then with Rapture, figuring it would work with V (don't see why it wouldn't). SCH can make AOE erase (Esuna, though not taking more than one effect). SCH can cast barspells paired with AOE phalanx. AOE Soneskin. 1/tick regain (not much, but still equates to something).

I understand charges can be limiting, but my friend, before the update, had no problem balancing them out. People would look at WHM the way it was before. And, lolDivine Caress.

And, they would still be able to manage their MP better, outside abyssea.


TLDR; While giving SCH Cure V wouldn't make it a better healer than WHM, it would again make SCH more desirable than WHM, with all it's utilities and MP management.

As for the Dark Arts side, idk.

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Now, SCH has tons of down falls, and I see no reason what-so-ever for anyone to level it, outside of Libra. I thought Libra was pretty cool.

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Please tell me you're trolling. Libra is the worst thing to happen to SCH since SE decided to release the job with an incomplete spell list. I don't even care if SE plans for Libra to make SCH shit friendship and magic in a few update, it was worthless when it was released, worthless when Animus spells were released and is probably only less worthless now because it's (apparently) attached to that horseshit !! proc system.

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The way I see SCH could be fixed, and make me actually want to level it, is, as some people have mentioned, a HOT spell greater than regen would be pretty cool. The second is, make Rapture a JA that doesn't rely on a charge, and make the recast be something almost nearly broken.

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While I don't particularly have any issue with a buffed up Regen spell, I don't really see the point. Cure V is already there and shouldn't be too difficult to adjust, not to mention Cure IV is a subjob spell soon (or is it already?). Making a spell that heals 200HP/tic would however, require quite a bit of planning and balance. Again, Cure V is already there.
Breaking Rapture however, makes zero sense.

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You have that spell to reduce your enmity gain, or something to that effect.

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You'd compare Cure V having less hate gain than Cure III to Animus Minuo? You are aware Animus is only a pathetic -5 Enmity, right?

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Then with Rapture, figuring it would work with V (don't see why it wouldn't). SCH can make AOE erase (Esuna, though not taking more than one effect). SCH can cast barspells paired with AOE phalanx. AOE Soneskin. 1/tick regain (not much, but still equates to something).

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We can lock ourselves for ~1 second using a Stratagem to buff Cures (though I don't think Rapture + Cure V is a wise choice). We can use a Stratagem and cast Erase in what takes you one spell. We can cast vastly weaker Bar spells to WHM (and Shell, might I add). We can again, use a Stratagem to cast Stoneskinga which is what you can do with a Cure spell. 1/tic regain is vastly weaker than Haste. Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy.

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And, they would still be able to manage their MP better, outside abyssea.

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Huh? MP management? Between Refresh II, Ballad III, a surplus of gear that enhances both, a surplus of new Refresh gear, and Convert or Sublimation (and Light Arts + Penury), WHM shouldn't have any major MP issues anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Please tell me you're trolling. Libra is the worst thing to happen to SCH since SE decided to release the job with an incomplete spell list. I don't even care if SE plans for Libra to make SCH shit friendship and magic in a few update, it was worthless when it was released, worthless when Animus spells were released and is probably only less worthless now because it's (apparently) attached to that horseshit !! proc system.



While I don't particularly have any issue with a buffed up Regen spell, I don't really see the point. Cure V is already there and shouldn't be too difficult to adjust, not to mention Cure IV is a subjob spell soon (or is it already?). Making a spell that heals 200HP/tic would however, require quite a bit of planning and balance. Again, Cure V is already there.
Breaking Rapture however, makes zero sense.



You'd compare Cure V having less hate gain than Cure III to Animus Minuo? You are aware Animus is only a pathetic -5 Enmity, right?



We can lock ourselves for ~1 second using a Stratagem to buff Cures (though I don't think Rapture + Cure V is a wise choice). We can use a Stratagem and cast Erase in what takes you one spell. We can cast vastly weaker Bar spells to WHM. We can again, use a Stratagem to cast Stoneskinga which is what you can do with a Cure spell. 1/tic regain is vastly weaker than Haste. Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy.



Huh? MP management? Between Refresh II, Ballad III, a surplus of gear that enhances both, a surplus of new Refresh gear, and Convert or Sublimation (and Light Arts + Penury), WHM shouldn't have any major MP issues anymore.

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It's all essentially the same thing.

I'm talking about the light arts side of it. Which, from my understanding, people /WHM for. So you would have haste and be able to give 1/tick regain.

I'm pretty sure SCH gets access to the same refresh gear WHM does, excluding Orison Bliuad +2. I don't know if SCH empyrean body has refresh. I know there's the WOTG earring, Wivre Hairpin is any job, pretty sure Stearc subligar was any job, Owleyes. Am I missing anything? Then if you're going to throw in Refresh II and ballads, same could be said of SCH. But in cases where there isn't refresh II or ballads, SCH has this refresh gear and a better sublimation.

People aren't going to care that WHM has better barspells. They didn't care before. They didn't care that we gave stoneskin (though not as strong as now) through curing before, either. They were both able to do the exact same job, though SCH managed MP better and was crowd control since /RDM was better then.

A HOT spell, I think would make SCH and WHM compliment each other nicely, with the right implementations.


"Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy. "

And we don't have to do this for Esuna?

As far as Aminus Minuo, I'm sure you can find the right set of gear that has a good balance of cure potency, -enmity and MND. I know my friend had a good one. I'll have to ask her what it was. Or put one together myself. Aminus Minuo is 1 to 2 less slots taking -ENM in gear.

Breaking Rapture in a good way. Like, making the recast 3 minutes, or something that is nearly on the verge of being unbalanced.

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I'm talking about the light arts side of it. Which, from my understanding, people /WHM for.

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Wrong.

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I'm pretty sure SCH gets access to the same refresh gear WHM does, excluding Orison Bliuad +2. I don't know if SCH empyrean body has refresh. I know there's the WOTG earring, Wivre Hairpin is any job, pretty sure Stearc subligar was any job, Owleyes. Am I missing anything? Then if you're going to throw in Refresh II and ballads, same could be said of SCH. But in cases where there isn't refresh II or ballads, SCH has this refresh gear and a better sublimation.

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In said cases, SCH would be main healer? Well let me drone on back to why WHM is better. SCH will pull hate. If you haven't got a BRD and RDM (though RDM is largely ignorable), chances our your DDs aren't going to be killing quite as fast as they should be and I can only have flash backs of the horrors of main healing tanks without March. SCH having to Cure bomb with a spell that generates more hate than Cure VI doesn't last as long as it needs to in such a situation, which is why you bring a WHM. Hell, even when SCH did outclass WHM and BLM, both were still common place, if not vital (I never remember not seeing both jobs in Alliances) and that was before SE decided every job but SCH should play a part in making stuff drop.

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As far as Aminus Minuo, I'm sure you can find the right set of gear that has a good balance of cure potency, -enmity and MND. I know my friend had a good one. I'll have to ask her what it was. Or put one together myself. Aminus Minuo is 1 to 2 less slots taking -ENM in gear.

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You've completely missed the point. WHM still generates vastly last enmity than SCH. SCH gaining more hate with Cure V doesn't change that (well actually it does, but it's a negative change on SCH, go figure). Animus Minuo doesn't do squat, both jobs can probably already cap out -enmity, it's a worthless spell.

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Breaking Rapture in a good way. Like, making the recast 3 minutes, or something that is nearly on the verge of being unbalanced.

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Wait, so not only do you want SCH to be able to cast the same level of Cure as any /WHM job, but you want to put the only thing that redeems SCH healing on a 3 minute timer? Get the fuck out of this thread. Now.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Wrong.



In said cases, SCH would be main healer? Well let me drone on back to why WHM is better. SCH will pull hate. If you haven't got a BRD and RDM (though RDM is largely ignorable), chances our your DDs aren't going to be killing quite as fast as they should be and I can only have flash backs of the horrors of main healing tanks without March. SCH having to Cure bomb with a spell that generates more hate than Cure VI doesn't last as long as it needs to in such a situation, which is why you bring a WHM. Hell, even when SCH did outclass WHM and BLM, both were still common place, if not vital (I never remember not seeing both jobs in Alliances) and that was before SE decided every job but SCH should play a part in making stuff drop.



You've completely missed the point. WHM still generates vastly last enmity than SCH. SCH gaining more hate with Cure V doesn't change that (well actually it does, but it's a negative change on SCH, go figure). Animus Minuo doesn't do squat, both jobs can probably already cap out -enmity, it's a worthless spell.



Wait, so not only do you want SCH to be able to cast the same level of Cure as any /WHM job, but you want to put the only thing that redeems SCH healing on a 3 minute timer? Get the fuck out of this thread. Now.

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Ok, 2 minute timer? Or would you rather it still use up a charge?

If they were to get a HOT spell, they wouldn't need to rely on Rapture half as much.

If they were to do these things, SCH wouldn't need cure V, could cast cure IV less, and still be wanted.

And good for the WHMs on your server? My LS kept telling me to main SCH if I wanted to continue main healing. Other WHM friends in different linkshells, even on different servers were getting the same treatment.

And I guess I need to go tell my SCH friends they're doing it wrong as /WHM for healing. Huh.

Again, giving SCH cure V and striping the fixed enmity on it isn't going to fix SCH at all. It will just make it more like WHM, and then you will really have something to complain about as far as pulling hate.

Edit: If all of this stuff SCH main has is so useless, and it's Cure V you're wanting, play WHM?

I don't know what it is about your Linkshell but I was told different, my friend.

I was asked, "Don't you have any other job that can be more useful?"

Yeah, You read that right, SCH and RDM wasn't useful enough for my Linkshell and it wasn't enough for shout groups because I would get "SCH No Thanks" Oh and guess what? my Linkshell is pressing me to Level WHM because "SCH Completely sucks at healing and can't proc anything"

And you want us to suck more so we get ignored more? Hell Even a PUP gets Cure V and VI Might as well change it to lolSCH

Why are you even here? All you are doing is bashing our job and wanting our job to get a Nerf, seriously.. Those are not even good suggestions and your haven't given a good reason why SCHs should not get Cure V and why should we waste getting better gear for -enmity gear? We still cure for crap, that wont do anything.

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If all of this stuff SCH main has is so useless, and it's Cure V you're wanting, play WHM?

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I said all the stuff SCH has is useless? My only complaint in regards to that is Libra/Animus and you're damn well deluded if you think either make SCH worth crap. I actually like having to use Stratagems for spells and being able to switch between two rolls, I only bring up things like Stratagems wasting a couple seconds to use is because that is what balances the job out to some degree.
You must be seriously be lacking in the ability to read because I've said numerous times that SCH Cure V wouldn't be anything like WHM Cure V. I wont level WHM, why? Because I don't want to stand there casting "Cure V > Cure VI > Cure V > etc." for the rest of my days. SCH main healing is far more entertaining for me, I simply demand Cure V because relying on Quick-Magic to proc when the shit hits the fan is completely stupid.

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Again, giving SCH cure V and striping the fixed enmity on it isn't going to fix SCH at all. It will just make it more like WHM, and then you will really have something to complain about as far as pulling hate.

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I'm already complaining about hate. WHM gains zero enmity. BLM can wipe its clean. DDs can all tank. I guess SE sees it as ironic that the one job that's meant to control enmity (even though THF does a better job of it) is the only one left that still has any hate gaining issues. But that's a digression, the point is SCH with Cure V wouldn't be anything like WHM. We'd be spamming Cure IV with the occasional Cure V while having to watch our hate, where as WHM spams Cure V/VI with zero concerns.
As for fixing SCH, I really don't know what to say. You say SCH is broken, which means you admit it's not doing it's role properly. Then you go ahead and say Cure V would just make it more like WHM (which it really wouldn't)? You are aware that Light Arts it meant to make SCH act as a WHM, right? You're either a complete idiot or you've had a massive lapse in cognitive ability recently.

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And I guess I need to go tell my SCH friends they're doing it wrong as /WHM for healing. Huh.

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No. You're wrong for saying SCH subs WHM for Light Arts, it doesn't. WHM is an irrelevant subjob the moment Lv.99 comes about, right now it's a reasonable subjob for Haste, but thats about it. Though if your SCH friends (and really, go run that Rapture on a 3 minute cool down idea by them, or better yet send them here, they might actually know wtf they're talking about) are in a party with either a RDM or WHM, /WHM becomes completely redundant because they don't need to cast Haste.

Honestly, I really don't know what else I can say about Cure V. You just don't want SCH to have it, that much is clear. Any WHM with an ounce of understanding of their job would realize that giving Cure V away with proper hate gain doesn't threaten them in the slightest. WHM can spam Cure V/VI until the cows come home. SCH could get off maybe six Cure Vs off before drawing unwanted attention. It's damn near the epitome of balance. Every single person who's said no to SCH getting Cure V has been completely incapable of countering this argument and you seem to be no different, don't bother saying "Just give SCH a HOT spell". For one I hate the acronym and for another its not an argument against getting Cure V at all.

You're the one who said that the -5 ENM was crap. You said Libra was useless. Phalanx has no point of being casted, nor does regain, according to what you said. The way you're wording things, Cure V is the only thing that is going to save SCH, and everything else about it except maybe Rapture, Penury, Accession and Celerity is useless (as far as Light Arts side goes). That's what I've gotten out of your complaining.

No, I don't want SCH to get Cure V, glad you picked up on that. It baffles me that one of the things you're complaining about (hate), you're also suggesting Cure V is different for SCH in that it doesn't have fixed enmity, from what I've understood. That isn't going to fix the hate problems you're complaining about.

Abyssea isn't the only event in the game. Outside abyssea, Cure V is rarely used, let alone Cure VI. Stop living in abyssea if you want to play SCH?

Miera, I was talking about at 75. Not now.

Bottom line, SE's current direction seems to be to make each job unique. Giving SCH cure V isn't going to make it unique. It's going to make it a WHM with a little more tools to play with, that WHM/SCH can basically already do, only with less charges. No matter what they do to change Cure V. What makes you think they can make it different for SCH? It has fixed enmity. If they got rid of that for SCH, no amount of Tranquil Heart they give WHM to make up for it would help, without being broken, cause it would likely affect WHM's other cures, as well. I'm pretty sure they can't make two different formula's for 1 spell. I have none that come to mind.

Calling me an idiot and implying I can't read is a bit silly. I'm sorry we disagree? Was just saying what would make me want to level SCH, to make it unique from WHM. Only reason I suggested you level WHM is because, as I said, you were complaining about most of the things SCH main has, and not complaining about stuff you get from using it as a support job.

That's all.

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You're the one who said that the -5 ENM was crap. You said Libra was useless. Phalanx has no point of being casted, nor does regain....

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Actually he said Phalanx was good but if you are main healing and having to run up to your party and applying it is a pain, mobs have AOE attacks that could potentially kill us.

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No, I don't want SCH to get Cure V, glad you picked up on that. It baffles me that one of the things you're complaining about (hate), you're also suggesting Cure V is different for SCH in that it doesn't have fixed enmity, from what I've understood. That isn't going to fix the hate problems you're complaining about.

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WHMs have higher MND, Healing magic and way more cure Potency Gear than SCHs they can still outcure a SCH even if we were allowed Cure V, so why are you whining? My Cure IV cures the same amount as a WHMs Cure III if that tells you anything and no, I don't have a cure staff, would that make much of a difference, nope.

Well you aren't being quite productive with Suggestions by the way and just because you don't want us to have Cure V doesn't mean we should suffer because of this.

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Abyssea isn't the only event in the game. Outside abyssea, Cure V is rarely used, let alone Cure VI. Stop living in abyssea if you want to play SCH?

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So now you are saying that we shouldn't come SCH in Abyssea what gives you the right to say that? I should be able to go, party and do endgame whenever the hell I want on SCH. Also Hello? Everyone lives in abyssea, you go find a group who isn't doing just that. I don't know when was the last time I have seen Nyzul Isle, Limbus and Sky shouts since Abyssea came out.

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Miera, I was talking about at 75. Not now.

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Well, That was then and this is now, the level cap is at 90, things have changed people are fighting harder mobs and Cure IV doesn't cut it, Cure V should have been a spell at level 76 for SCHs we got Protect and Shell V and they even threw us Stoneskin, Aquavail and Blink (We should have had those from the beginning)

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Bottom line, SE's current direction seems to be to make each job unique. Giving SCH cure V isn't going to make it unique. It's going to make it a WHM with a little more tools to play with, that WHM/SCH can basically already do, only with less charges. No matter what they do to change Cure V. What makes you think they can make it different for SCH? It has fixed enmity. If they got rid of that for SCH, no amount of Tranquil Heart they give WHM to make up for it would help, without being broken, cause it would likely affect WHM's other cures, as well. I'm pretty sure they can't make two different formula's for 1 spell. I have none that come to mind.

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You're wrong, what sets SCH apart from WHM isn't just higher tiers of Cures, You have Divine caress and Barspells and higher Regens that are way more potent and Protect and shell which is better than anyone's protect and shell defense, higher Mind, and healing magic, all sorts of Cure Potency gear Not to mention Afflatus Solace and Misery, come on, Cure V for SCH isn't that game breaking.

People on my server have started doing plenty outside abyssea.

I've never seen a good SCH die while running it to cast Phalanxga. And I've never died running in to Esuna. Just saying.

Now it just seems like you're complaining just to complain. I'll leave you to it.

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You're the one who said that the -5 ENM was crap. You said Libra was useless. Phalanx has no point of being casted, nor does regain, according to what you said. The way you're wording things, Cure V is the only thing that is going to save SCH, and everything else about it except maybe Rapture, Penury, Accession and Celerity is useless (as far as Light Arts side goes). That's what I've gotten out of your complaining.

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Going to have to quote me on saying Phalanx isn't worth casting, or Regain. In fact, quote me on saying Scholar is even broken and Cure V is the miracle cure. I'd rather you not put words in my mouth because you can't read.
As it is, I can main heal, but (and I'm not going to say this again) I want Cure V because relying on Quick-Magic when the shit hits the fan is asinine.

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No, I don't want SCH to get Cure V, glad you picked up on that. It baffles me that one of the things you're complaining about (hate), you're also suggesting Cure V is different for SCH in that it doesn't have fixed enmity, from what I've understood. That isn't going to fix the hate problems you're complaining about.

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I'm suggesting SCH get Cure V with proper hate. I wouldn't complain about that because *gasp* it's not a spell I'd want to spam, which is exactly why I don't level WHM. In fact the only aspect I complain about enmity is that SE doesn't know what they're doing with it and decided on a whim that SCH should control hate, followed by giving it absolute horseshit to do so with. Cure V has nothing to do about that, though. I'd actually quite like the irony of SCH being the only class left that has to worry about hate when it's meant to control it, but right now it's completely lacking the ability to control hate. Libra: "Oh I've got a lot of hate, I better stop main healing", brilliant. Animus: -5 Enmity, no significant change to gear, zero ability to actually control hate. Yes, I'll complain about that (and frequently have), it has nothing to do with Cure V being balanced to fit my needs, though.

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Calling me an idiot and implying I can't read is a bit silly. I'm sorry we disagree? Was just saying what would make me want to level SCH, to make it unique from WHM. Only reason I suggested you level WHM is because, as I said, you were complaining about most of the things SCH main has, and not complaining about stuff you get from using it as a support job.

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And this is why I say you can't read. I wasn't complaining, I was stating facts. I have to run up to people to use Stoneskinga (uses one Stratagem) and spam Rapture with Cure IV (another Stratagem) to do what WHM just does with one spell. This isn't complaining. It's a damn fact and if you can't see how vastly better that makes WHM (regardless of Cure V) then yes, you are an idiot. You've effectively been ignoring an argument for why WHM is better regardless, while trying to argue SCH would be better if given Cure V, it's no wonder I'm calling you an idiot.

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Abyssea isn't the only event in the game. Outside abyssea, Cure V is rarely used, let alone Cure VI. Stop living in abyssea if you want to play SCH?

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But Abyssea is an event in the game, quite a big one at that. Forgive me for wanting to bring a job I enjoy to what is currently the largest endgame event in the game.

Now who's putting words in whose mouth? I never said SCH would be better than WHM. What I said is it would be too much like WHM, and people before didn't care that WHM still healed better than SCH, so if they did get Cure V, what would make this time different in their eyes? Not much has changed, except that our cureskin is now stronger than it was. Yes, our barspells have always been stronger. Yes, we don't have to use a stratagem for for DD's to have stoneskin on them. I'm well aware of all of this. But people aren't going to care.

Maybe what I suggested wont help it either. Maybe it is stupid. But if you can't think of ways that could make SCH better without bringing up Cure V, then it is going to be the exact same way it was before. I've already been told (jokingly sometimes) by some friends that if SCH gets Cure V, I may as well ditch WHM and level SCH. So yes, my concerns for SCH getting cure V do have reason.

Jesus Christ, do we really have to go around in circles?

You're just ignoring the very first aspect of SCH Cure V that was ever brought up. WHM has Cure V with virtually no hate gain. SCH has Cure V with greater hate gain than Cure IV like it should have. People aren't going to use SCH over WHM when WHM is better, even if you somehow think they will, they're not going to use SCH when it's actually going to pull hate. That is the number one reason WHM is king, the fact that it's better in just about every other regard is just a further kick in the teeth of you're argument.

Giving SCH something different that effectively does the same thing still isn't an argument against SCH Cure V. It's an alternative and it's completely unneeded. Why the hell go through the bother of making a new spell when they can just slightly adjust a current one? It doesn't make SCH unique. SCH is already unique while having 90% of the same spells as WHM and BLM. Asking for a whole new spell to do the role of one that's already in the damn game for the sake of superficial uniqueness is just ridiculous.

As I have already said. I can't think of any spell in the game that has 2 different formula's. So they would have to break the -50 ENM cap for WHM. Because, as I have already said, no amount of tranquil heart would balance things, as it would likely effect Cure IV for WHMs as well. That would be broken.

How would Cure IV with reduced hate be anymore broken than Cure V? As it is WHM will never pull hate, increasing its ability to not gain hate would effectively do nothing, while allowing SCH to gain access to an emergency Cure spell with very little effort on the programmers side. An alternative like a HOT spell would require a lot of balancing and testing, not to mention it doesn't even fill the slot of an emergency cure like the Cure V I'm suggestion. HOT would be something you keep on someone full time and would probably require less effort than "Cure V > Cure VI" spam.

Tranquil Heart is awful if that's there solution (in which case we are getting Cure V anyway), a trait that just ignores -enmity altogether and halves (or whatever) the enmity gain of Cure spells would be ideal or hell, why can't they just give Cure V two formulas? Either is still far easier than producing a whole new spell.

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

Saying WHM never pull hate is a bit of a stretch. Maybe it's just the way my LS does things that cause DD's enmity to decay through getting hit, but me and my friend pull hate on WHM and end up tanking some NMs for about a minute or 2 sometimes. That's at -50 ENM cap. The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

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Originally Posted by Aaralyn

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

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It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

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Originally Posted by Raksha

It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

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I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

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Originally Posted by Aaralyn

I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

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Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

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<if spell="Cure V">

<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />

<if $main_job = "WHM">

<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />

</if>

<else>

<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />

</else>

</if>

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Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour of starting a basic programming language.

(To all of those real coders out there: forgive me!)

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Originally Posted by Raksha

Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

<if spell="Cure V">
<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />
<if $main_job = "WHM">
<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />
</if>
<else>
<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />
</else>
</if>

Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour if you tried.

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Said I was assuming. Can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

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Originally Posted by Aaralyn

Said I was assuming. But I'm retarded, so can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

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Utsusemi: Ni.

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Originally Posted by Aaralyn

The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

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Yeah, um, I'm confused by this, but I don't know why because I see the misconception all the time. First, I play WHM a lot more than SCH these days. Mostly because my LS whines like hell if I come SCH instead, and second, because I hate not having Cure V to main heal. So you can guess how I feel about SC getting a Cure V equivalent.

Anyway, Sotek is not off on the never pulling hate statement. I can't think of any time I have ever gotten hate on WHM on anything in Abyssea, unless I am being totally lazy on some crap NM and spamming after their hate reset move because who cares.

Why? I never use any other Cure spell other than Cure V and VI. What I'm confused about is this concept that you have to wait until the math works out to make Cure V cure its full amount, so you use Cure IV instead. This is a necessary requirement outside of Abyssea, where MP is an issue. Inside, the idea of losing out on Cure/MP ratio is meaningless. There is no need to wait until Cure V is numerically justifiable. You just use it anyway, regardless of what value you're comfortable letting the player's HP bar reach. Don't want to wait till they're low enough? Don't! But cast Cure V, not IV. Want to cure someone at 99%? Cast Cure V. It makes no difference if some of the potency is wasted because the MP cost doesn't matter and you gained less hate than you would have had you casted Cure IV. My guess is this is why you are pulling hate and tanking on WHM in Abyssea. That's craziness.

In fact, cast Cure V on your blink tank when their HP is near full to maintain their stoneskin. Oh, and macro in Orison body instead of Facio for that Cure V macro. I see people screaming all the time that Orison body is useless because there is no potency on it. It's because they're stuck in this pre-Abyssea concept that you can only use Cure V if it will cure near its full amount, which is ridiculous with infinite MP.

With that in mind, if we are staying in Abyssea, the "WHM doesn't get hate" thing is absolutely a defining trait. My guess is Tranquil Heart is going to be tested over the next few months to see if removing the enmity property on Cure V will work for RDM, PLD and SCH. They're not going to have to make Cure V use two formulas. They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does. This is the exact solution posted by Sotek several pages back. Everyone wins with this. SCH and RDM can be adequate healers without getting so frustrated trying that they wish they came WHM (a problem for me every time) and WHM can stay special with its ability to remain effectively invisible.

Well, idk if PLD will win but w/e. Oh, and those of use who are hoping more for something that boosts SCH's unique abilities will probably look at the August update and say "finally" at Cure V instead of "yay" for something cool. Oh well, I'll be happy with December's coolness and go solo some light skillchains.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does.

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Unless the highest tiers (the WHM-only ones) break the -50% enmity cap, SCH and RDM WON'T gain more hate from cure5 than WHM. All three jobs will be casting in -50% enmity gear/traits anyway.

The way it is now, WHM with -50% enmity will gain 200CE and 350VE from a cure5 (regardless of amount cured). If they change this to use the same cure enmity formula that cure4 uses, that same WHM will gain (assuming 1000 hp cured) ~323CE and ~1935 VE (we dont have good numbers for lvl90).

Any job which can cast cure5 ( or any cure for that matter) for 1000hp, while wearing -50% enmity, at lvl 90, will gain the same enmity as a WHM (under the tranquil heart model).