[dev1009] Seriously.... how could you make the HNM system worse...

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No point arguing over defnitions. There's no rule about having to work for your rewards. How do you explain Mog Bonanza then? A cosmological injustice?

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act of god its real and insurance does not cover it (says so specifically)

While this system could indeed work much better than the old HNM system, I think leaving the entry cost at 99 Kindred Seals is a bit excessive with their current drop rate.

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Originally Posted by darkvision

if you cant motivate yourself to do it then imo you dont deserve the final item. granted you can pay the gil to get it, being the easy way out, but as i said if you cant be assed to motivate yourself you dont deserve it

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Funny, when the 'elitests' used that argument for HNM; all the noobs cried that all items should be accessible regardless of the amount of effort/time you put forth. Choose one side or another. You can't have it all.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

pick up enough in about an hour.

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Seals are limited to one per party per five minutes. So good luck with that.

I highly doubt people will even sell stuff like blackbelt items anymore unless your willing to pay like 10M-15M the time just would not be worth it unless doing it already and really.... most people wont be doing it already. The inaccessable looks to be getting more inaccessable.

Looks like it's going to be as inaccessible as anything these days. I see shout groups for bosses all the time so I don't know why this wouldn't make kings easier. Slower? maybe.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Funny, when the 'elitests' used that argument for HNM; all the noobs cried that all items should be accessible regardless of the amount of effort/time you put forth. Choose one side or another. You can't have it all.

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LOL yup, I was having this EXACT same thought.

But as I posted earlier in this thread... they could give everyone what they want by simply using both systems. Leave world spawns as they are for the players willing to camp, and supplement them with this proposed trigger system. That way all of us hardcore HNM guys can continue the way we always have, and the rest can still have their opportunity to fight the HNMs and obtain the gear without some of the "headaches" that come with camping.

I totally agree that if you cant find the motivation to do the content then you do not deserve the rewards. Now I'm glad I got nearly every HNM drop (sans D.Ring, of course) back in the day... because I sure have zero desire to spend countless hours farming EPs for seals.

/sigh I sure do miss the days of a competition-fueled Aery.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Looks like it's going to be as inaccessible as anything these days. I see shout groups for bosses all the time so I don't know why this wouldn't make kings easier. Slower? maybe.

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Zone bosses take 15mins to get a pop set for most drop things people want (empy items atma etc) takes 3mins to kill and everyone goes seperate ways.

KS30 I gave up after 5hrs of shouting to get a group together when it was actually still worth something (Royal Ramble) can't imagine how annoying after spending days farming for 1 KS99 orb its gonna be to try and get a group together that can kill the KS99 then kill faf and then if lucky kill hogg (or other kings whatever works for you)

sorry you can't really compair a king vs a zone boss in terms of time and ease

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

Zone bosses take 15mins to get a pop set for most drop things people want (empy items atma etc) takes 3mins to kill and everyone goes seperate ways.

KS30 I gave up after 5hrs of shouting to get a group together when it was actually still worth something (Royal Ramble) can't imagine how annoying after spending days farming for 1 KS99 orb its gonna be to try and get a group together that can kill the KS99 then kill faf and then if lucky kill hogg (or other kings whatever works for you)

sorry you can't really compair a king vs a zone boss in terms of time and ease

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Except you can. While current in demand content is higher level and more "difficult" it's evened out by atmas, brew and an seemingly never ending stream of people who want to do it. Every day I log in there are shout groups for Rani, +2 mat bosses and other NM hunts. I know because I spent a week doing it for an empyrean weapon trial and witnessing others doing it as well. Fafnir and Co. should be just as easy when the update comes because it's going to be in a spotlight for everyone to see. The simple idea that you don't need to camp for king items anymore is like an electric can opener in a crazy old cat lady's house. We can also pretty much guarantee that no changes will be made to the monsters involved in the new system. Remember that these things were taken down by one or two parties of players at level 75 when merits and awesome gear were hard to find. These days top gear can be gotten by pick up groups and getting 20 merit points in a day is as simple as standing by a dominion sergeant NPC. In other words, pick up groups are going to destroy kings ( I would love to be proven wrong though)

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Except you can. While current in demand content is higher level and more "difficult" it's evened out by atmas, brew and an seemingly never ending stream of people who want to do it. Every day I log in there are shout groups for Rani, +2 mat bosses and other NM hunts. I know because I spent a week doing it for an empyrean weapon trial and witnessing others doing it as well. Fafnir and Co. should be just as easy when the update comes because it's going to be in a spotlight for everyone to see. The simple idea that you don't need to camp for king items anymore is like an electric can opener in a crazy old cat lady's house. We can also pretty much guarantee that no changes will be made to the monsters involved in the new system. Remember that these things were taken down by one or two parties of players at level 75 when merits and awesome gear were hard to find. These days top gear can be gotten by pick up groups and getting 20 merit points in a day is as simple as standing by a dominion sergeant NPC. In other words, pick up groups are going to destroy kings ( I would love to be proven wrong though)

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can they kill the king? Sure. Can you go into KS99 with a bunch of people who you never met. Yep can they win with the right jobs? Of course! Are there going to be an endless flow of people with 99 KS for more than 2 days? Not likely. Are people going to whine that its to hard to get people after that. Why not.

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

Are there going to be an endless flow of people with 99 KS for more than 2 days? Not likely. Are people going to whine that its to hard to get people after that. Why not.

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What are you basing this off of? I've seen shouts for KSNM even recently and I know people who do BCNMs for kraken club on almost a weekly basis. People stockpile massive amounts of seals from magian trials and that 1-30 pre abyssea grind. If it's the progression from KSNM battlefield to Kings you are worried there will probably be a DD-DD-Healer-Support paradigm thrown together a week after the update takes place to ensure that more than 6 people wont be needed to successfuly win but will be encouraged to knock out more orbs at a time.

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Originally Posted by Kavik

I'll admit i didn't read every post, but i agree w/ the OP on the point that i don't think this is going to help anything. I cannot get 6 people together to do a KS 30 let alone 18 or so for KS 99. What i will say is that the 1 KS BS or KC in pool per pt is bullshit, i have a Screeny of 4 KC's in pool in an EXP alliance in abyssea - mis coast, if no one believes me. I took it with my camera because i can't figure out how to get the damn things off my pc. This was before, as you can see, they changed the look of the KC.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...0/100_0933.jpg
Proof positive ^.

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I don't know if you're being sarcastic or I'm not reading you right on the first part but

KSNM30's/99's haven't needed 6-18 people since ... Ever.

Most KSNM99's could be done with 12 or less back at 75, now adays people have solo'd the Wyrm one. I solo'd KSNM30's on my PLD (lol ODS) back at 80. was possible at 75 IIRC.

But anyway sure as heck don't need 6-18 people, You could probably do most/all of them with ~5/6 or less.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

What are you basing this off of? I've seen shouts for KSNM even recently and I know people who do BCNMs for kraken club on almost a weekly basis. People stockpile massive amounts of seals from magian trials and that 1-30 pre abyssea grind. If it's the progression from KSNM battlefield to Kings you are worried there will probably be a DD-DD-Healer-Support paradigm thrown together a week after the update takes place to ensure that more than 6 people wont be needed to successfuly win but will be encouraged to knock out more orbs at a time.

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Kings are a total joke to kill tbh the KS99's are harder than the NQ Kings and I would rate Wyrm as harder than even hogg. but you dont get KS from 1-30 or in abyssea magian trials while that results in some I am sure most even when stockpiling most will have maybe 5 chances at the NQ and if you look the way its shown is that the drops for the NQ from KS99 are 100% then below that it shows the drops that pop the HQ (hello PW from ZNM) (so assume its about a 20% average drop same as the spawning of it). So 5 shots maybe 1 chance on average for the HQ how long do you think that will last. Maybe on your server KS30 shouts are common I have not seen one on mine since the cap was 75 and a majority of my time is spent sitting in the shout areas watching for interesting things.

Inb4 400 people on FFXIAH posting (OMG MY POP ITEM WAS NINJAED DONT GO WITH THIS GUY)

So, You're angry cause you're making up numbers (I.e you're saying 20% pop for HQ) and complaining about it.

Got it.

really though, You have no idea what you're talking about. No one knows what the Drop-rate for HQ Kings will be. The update notes also specify that we may get more than 1 NQ pop per KSNM. SO maybe i'll make up some numbers too.

See, Lets base it off Dynamis! Mobs have a chance to drop multiple Currency! so the way i see it, Each KSNM will drop 1-4 Pop items from fafnir! And Since Joyeuse has ~99% drop rate, I think the HQ pop will too. So now each KSNM we have 4 chances at fafnir and 99.96 chance at 4 nidhoggs. This update is amazing.

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Not so fun when you're getting imaginary numbers thrown at you in the form of an argument is it?

Basically what I'm saying is you should wait the update, the biggest problem is the Unknowns, We don't know how nerfed the BB item drop rate is, We dont know how many Pop items you can get per fight, We don't know if the're R(Sellable) or EX, we don't know a lot of things.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So, You're angry cause you're making up numbers (I.e you're saying 20% pop for HQ) and complaining about it.

Got it.

really though, You have no idea what you're talking about. No one knows what the Drop-rate for HQ Kings will be. The update notes also specify that we may get more than 1 NQ pop per KSNM. SO maybe i'll make up some numbers too.

See, Lets base it off Dynamis! Mobs have a chance to drop multiple Currency! so the way i see it, Each KSNM will drop 1-4 Pop items from fafnir! And Since Joyeuse has ~99% drop rate, I think the HQ pop will too. So now each KSNM we have 4 chances at fafnir and 3.96% chance at nidhogg. This update is amazing.

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Not so fun when you're getting imaginary numbers thrown at you in the form of an argument is it?

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thats about what its spawn rate is currently if you want to go into drop rates based on previous popped HNM like VNM or PW drops we can say it will be 5-10% my numbers are based on previous experiences with their way of handling popped "HNM'"s not completely just lets throw this here and that there.

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

thats about what its spawn rate is currently if you want to go into drop rates based on previous popped HNM like VNM or PW drops we can say it will be 5-10%

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Yah but they're too entirely different systems. they have no relation outside of "Forced pop" aspect.

If you wanna make a fair argument, why not base it on Abyssea Pop items? They all require farming of pop items, same as ZNM. Except their drop rate is pretty solid. I can kill the Buffalo NM 5 times and get 3-4 items for the tiger with TH6 on.

My point is its an Unknown, We can't judge a system based on Unknown information.

I just want to extend my heartfelt thanks to the dev team for finally making this change. I was hoping for this to become a reality every single update a few years ago.
It may be a few years too late but I think the boting issue will finally be resolved. I have a few hundred kindred seals ready and waiting to help me make progress toward getting a defending ring at long last.

In regards to ninja lotting items: you could always just quartermaster your own orb.

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

arbitrary numbers for features that don't exist yet

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You need to stop looking at this so subjectively. People get tons of Kindred seals doing their own stuff and things. Keep in mind that servers are merging soon so there will be plenty of new linkshells and pickup groups to participate with.

In your defense though you have plenty of reason to get upset prematurely. FFXI devs don't openly test their prototypes and when they do test something it's so unscientific that there's no surprise when the new content turns out to be a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah but they're too entirely different systems. they have no relation outside of "Forced pop" aspect.

If you wanna make a fair argument, why not base it on Abyssea Pop items? They all require farming of pop items, same as ZNM. Except their drop rate is pretty solid. I can kill the Buffalo NM 5 times and get 3-4 items for the tiger with TH6 on.

My point is its an Unknown, We can't judge a system based on Unknown information.

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You can tend to base things around previous history of similar types. This applies to both real life and this game. VNM's still even in abyssea have a horrid upgrade rate and this was the last thing they introduced as an HNM addition (at least in the sense they stated "New HNM's") This is also based on their current workings of said system having a 4-8 day wait (put 20% as an average just to work with a half decent number so i dont have something like 29.44347%) I am allowed to have as objective a point as I wish rather than getting my hopes up. its better to use what you have rather than get all hopeful to be let down by yet another fail system that makes this game worse than it is previously.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

You need to stop looking at this so subjectively. People get tons of Kindred seals doing their own stuff and things. Keep in mind that servers are merging soon so there will be plenty of new linkshells and pickup groups to participate with.

In your defense though you have plenty of reason to get upset prematurely. FFXI devs don't openly test their prototypes and when they do test something it's so unscientific that there's no surprise when the new content turns out to be a waste of time.

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My server was merged in the first wave and the population has already dropped to below what it was pre merger. ; ;

Not bragging:
Ks99 Wyrm 4-6 people x2 Blu/nin, x2rdm/nin 1blm(helps but not needed) 1 Tank(Monk thf War rng) all work Beat 4-10 min max unless you can not play your jobs well.
Ks99 Behemoth 2-6 ppl Rdm blm mix works very well more people = more dead mages 10 min unless you fail to live
Ks99 Hills are alive 6 ppl 1 tank helps but not needed. x2 blu/nin solo sc Drk x2 blm/whm x2 rdm/brd 5-10 min if u land MB
This is what i have done @ 90 with my friends: i'm am not the best of any job i have, but im good enough to know where I fail. So atm with 99 seals per person we would have 6 try's at any HNM. too easy to farm 100 KS infact they drop as much as most KC and HKC when i farm.

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

My server was merged in the first wave and the population has already dropped to below what it was pre merger. ; ;

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do you have any way to validate this?

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Originally Posted by Catsby

do you have any way to validate this?

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pre merger when you would do /sea all there would usually be about 1600-2000 on during peak times
post merger 3000ish
now 1200-1400 ocasionally 1600 if its the weekend

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

You can tend to base things around previous history of similar types. This applies to both real life and this game. VNM's still even in abyssea have a horrid upgrade rate and this was the last thing they introduced as an HNM addition (at least in the sense they stated "New HNM's") This is also based on their current workings of said system having a 4-8 day wait (put 20% as an average just to work with a half decent number so i dont have something like 29.44347%) I am allowed to have as objective a point as I wish rather than getting my hopes up. its better to use what you have rather than get all hopeful to be let down by yet another fail system that makes this game worse than it is previously.

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You can use as many numbers as you want but it doesn't change the fact you're making baseless assumptions without Proof behind them as this is a completely unknown system.

you're not basing it off of "Similar types", you're basing it off a Completely different system as pessimistically as you can. Why don't you include the fact for your little ZNM argument that Every single ZNM before the 3-big ones have 100% upgrade rate? Or maybe as i said earlier, how most Heroes Abyssea NMs have a ~70% Chance to drop their (R) Pop item for the next tier NM.

The only thing ZNM and this new system have in common is they're both system where you do something, get something, and pop something. Which is basically a large chunk of FFXI. Plus, The ZNM system was designed by a different Dev team, Who's painfully broom-rape ways have lost since passed. We have every right to believe they might pull this off.

So I'll stick to this as my Final Answer: You're assumptions have no base, You're pulling numbers from the most negative aspects of Old events from old dev teams and using them as an excuse to hate an event you know nothing about outside of how to pop said NMs.

You really should just Wait for the update. It has the chance to surprise us. I don't think they handled it the best way, but i also think it shows some promise. the only thing holding it back is the current Unknowns.

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Originally Posted by Mittenz

pre merger when you would do /sea all there would usually be about 1600-2000 on during peak times
post merger 3000ish
now 1200-1400 ocasionally 1600 if its the weekend

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So you don't have a way to validate it then. You just made up numbers again.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

So you don't have a way to validate it then. You just made up numbers again.

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what was the date of the merger I am more than willing to go through pictures I took to see if I took any of how annoyingly crowded it was once the merger happened as for pre merger I never really saw a need to take a pic of /sea all but I will check anyway for your benefit and obviously I can take a pic of current times.

and Karbuncle its best to assume the worst and be impressed than assume the best and be disappointed

in 2005, I'd of agreed with you. But as of late the Dev team has really stepped up their game. I prefer a "Cautiously Optimistic" point of view, not "Maliciously pessimistic".

I just don't think you should judge the system so harshly before we know all the facts

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I just don't think you should judge the system so harshly before we know all the facts

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This to an extent. SE has been surprisingly progressive over the last 6 months but only in an effort to cover there collective ass. Fire and forget game development went out of style about half a decade ago and SE is only realizing it now.

They need to remove D ring from KB and put it on Vrtra so ppl would still have to be good to earn a D ring.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

They need to remove D ring from KB and put it on Vrtra so ppl would still have to be good to earn a D ring.

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Not sure what you mean since the difficulty of the mob isn't changing. Just the amount of times it can be spawned. You aren't looking to create rarity of the ring by allowing for the same skill. You want to create rarity on the ring by increasing the difficulty and reducing the spawn opportunities. However, it does not change the skill level to attain it by allowing the mob to pop more often. It just makes it more available.

This clearly shines through as an attempt to protect e-peen because others getting it may make it less rare.

even if they boosted KBs lvl its still a joke.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

even if they boosted KBs lvl its still a joke.

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Then, the answer is a harder, more challenging NM with a better drop. It doesn't make sense to have the same gear drop from harder mobs just because the old mob pops more often.

Since the release of Abyssea, Squares has been making the game easier for the shrinking population in the game. Making things easier to do with small groups and removing a lot of need for large linkshells.

This is the first step in the opposite direction, and it’s a horrible idea in my honest opinion.
I do feel that the long windows for these old monsters should be switched to a pop system. But pop items from the KSNM99? Are you serious? I agree that many older players most likely have enough seals to have many 99 runs, but these players are also ones who no longer gain anything from said runs more times than not. Also lowering the drop rate to make monks seeking their black belts suffers more, backwards thinking I feel when we are seeing monk become the new trending job for abyssea.
I feel this is a slap in the face for the player group of the community, square does not understand the needs and wants of their paying players on this subject. This plan should not happen, at least not without tweaking. The pop item should not drop from KSNM99’s and monks should not fear even lower drop rates. Players are sick of working so hard to see nothing drop most of the time!

they should just work on the kindred crest and high kindred crestNM fights and drops and not worry about the current ones what a waste of time and resouces on something not worth peoples time really is BB gonna be worth that much effort at 95 or 99 still? other then novelty

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Originally Posted by Darkovercast

I feel this is a slap in the face for the player group of the community, square does not understand the needs and wants of their paying players on this subject.

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As a long-time player, I am going to disagree with you. Although many long-time players want to see things more accessible, they aren't looking for everything to be a low-man or solo event. Some of the frustrations you voice are, and still continue to be, ones I have. But, from the beginning, and as S/E has continually stated, the game is supposed to primarily be a 'party' game not a solo game. The changes we have seen recently have been made for those who wanted solo/low-man events. But, those aren't the only people who pay a monthly fee. One group cannot get their way every time.

So, as a paying player, I am going to say that they do understand their players. They just don't make all of us happy at the same time.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHeart

they should just work on the kindred crest and high kindred crestNM fights and drops and not worry about the current ones what a waste of time and resouces on something not worth peoples time really is BB gonna be worth that much effort at 95 or 99 still? other then novelty

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The belt was crazy good at 70. Hell, if it were released now instead of way back then it'd be pretty damn impressive. Now we're pretty used to it but just think about it... str 7 haste 12 SB 5 and PDT 5. Dare I say nothing in Abyssea even compares. Certainly not waist items, and I suppose the only items that impress me as much as this belt are Shinryu drops. So, yeah. BB is worth any amount of effort.

Well it's a good thing I played the game before abyssea. Leveling the old way and obtaining KSNMs while exping. I guess you suckers out there that complain about not having Kindred seal's just have to watch us pop them in front of you, while you hold yourselfs and cry. Not our fault or SE's you took the easy route and burned through levels without actually understanding how to play the game. It also isn't anyones or SEs fault, that you decided to spend all your KS or Orbs on 20k Ingot runs.

Welcome to the thunderdome.

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Originally Posted by Trollinthedungeon

Well it's a good thing I played the game before abyssea. Leveling the old way and obtaining KSNMs while exping. I guess you suckers out there that complain about not having Kindred seal's just have to watch us pop them in front of you, while you hold yourselfs and cry. Not our fault or SE's you took the easy route and burned through levels without actually understanding how to play the game. It also isn't anyones or SEs fault, that you decided to spend all your KS or Orbs on 20k Ingot runs.

Welcome to the thunderdome.

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What I have found interesting is that there were some, not all, of these same people that said they simply wanted a shot at the HNM's. That the claim system was unfair and not based on player skill. But, on luck and 3rd party tools. Now, they have the chance, through some effort, to fight these HNM's. And, the crying continues. What I'm guessing is that these same people who are crying were not just after the chance to fight an HNM but to have it practically handed to them. Of course, if they said that, they would have revealed their true agenda and received little support. As a former HNMLS member who thought the claim system and long time between pops was bad, I am truly enjoying the whining by those whose real intention was not just to fight the HNM but to practically have it pop in their MH on the hour.

Annoying troll is annoying.

Theyll always complain and SE needs to stop trying to cater to them. They got what they wanted and they still aren't happy. Freakin go play WoW.

I am NOT enjoying the whining. I find it annoying. The company is practically bending to their every nick and cranny and theyre still complaining. Remember when odin came out cause ppl were complaining about bots? They cried. Ok so they gimped down odin and einherjar, and people still complained.

FFXI shouldn't bend to botters but it shouldn't bend to people who don't care about anything and just want stuff handed to them. Play the game and enjoy it and stop crying about what you don't have. You don't have the time, you have cancer, you have kids, so does everyone else. It's a game. It's okay to suggest what you would like and campaigne for it, but stop the whining. You know what I'm gonna do if the game doesn't offer something interesting to me or I can't/don't want to do something? I'll quit and GO DO something else. Do I like the way the player base has de-evolved and now you can't tell the difference between an afker and a avesta/kirchy/cream soda type player? hell no buti find fun in the things i have time for and I don't step on people toes and I don't cry about stuff i can't do. I work around it because SE HAS impmented alternate methods to obtaining gear that is doable by people who can't and don't want to do as much.

And just an fyi, I am considering quitting because I just simply can't find fun in the game like i used too. I am not gonna start crying saying oh booo SE made the game boring and more casual and now there too many noobs wahhh. No.. The noobs deserved a chance to shine tbh and people have been tolerate but its gonna be the end of the game if SE doesn't stop catering to people who do not care about the game.