A Ninja without Throwing...

When SE wastes time adding useless stuff, the game as a whole suffers because it takes away time from adding good stuff. So yes, there is something wrong with it.

when something is wrong in a game and its bother you like its seem to do... take a break man seriously, you're mental health would be just better :)

Also, I don't know why you hate so much the idea of the shuriken, and stop the useless argument or the Katana is better and the mathematical formula... some ppl want new shuriken and if SE make some, what you gonna do? Quit FFXI?

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Originally Posted by Darwena

when something is wrong in a game and its bother you like its seem to do... take a break man seriously, you're mental health would be just better :)

Also, I don't know why you hate so much the idea of the shuriken, and stop the useless argument or the Katana is better and the mathematical formula... some ppl want new shuriken and if SE make some, what you gonna do? Quit FFXI?

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Not a single time in this entire thread has anyone said anything close to "NO YOU CANT USE SHURIKEN STOP YOUR AN IDIOT"

My entire Argument since my first post has been Play How you want, Enjoy your Shuriken, RP to your hearts content, But as it stands, The idea of making Throwing a Viable, DD friendly, Acceptable Solution is simply unrealistic..

We don't care if you throw Shuriken, We don't care if you enjoy it, go enjoy it. We really do not care how you spend free time. The only reason this thread is ~13 Pages is because the OP denies logic. We (I) Would not care if they added a New Shuriken, I would however care if instead of a meaningful buff, We got some Ranged Accuracy Job Trait. This is what we're trying to prevent. We know Throwing is Impossible to Fix without seriously crashing the game, So we're trying to prevent SE from thinking "Oh Hey, Ninja's want Ranged Accuracy and Attack job traits and more Sange? OKAY".

Did you read anything? His posts literally start with "I hate how Ninjas doesn't RP Shuriken Enough. Fix it now".

I'll spell this out, Clearer. He's a hypocrite. he Mocks us for only wanting to do damage, while complaining he doesn't get to do enough damage with Shuriken. We don't hate him, or you for liking Shuriken. We hate that he's fighting tooth and nail for a system we've tried to explain just simply will not see a viable buff, one good enough to make it useful, without breaking the game, or nerfing NIN

We don't hate that you love Shurikens, We don't hate that you love Role-playing to Toss shurikens even those its Historically innacurate for a NIN to continually throw Shuriken during Combat which pokes a big hole in that argument, but, anyway, We do not care if you play the game and enjoy it how you want.

You want new Shurikens? Thats a reasonable argument, but i bet you your new Shuriken will either be from

A) 1 per drop from some stupid BCNM no one wants to do.

B)
Yield: 1 New Shuriken
HQ: 2 New shuriken
HQ2: 3 New Shuriken
HQ3: 3 New Shuriken.

Recipe. Goldsmithing 100
Smithing 100
Synergy 80
3x Phrygian Gold Ingot
3x Orichalcum Ingot.

Cause that's apparently good ideas for it (Hint: See Any Shuriken Recipe, and "Targeting the Captain").

Though, i would seriously commemerate if we got a new Shuriken at level 90~+ thats easily accessible. Would it make NIN throw more? not without it having 100% Critical hit rate and a base damage of 400, but it would give players like you something to toss around. Which will make more players happy.

And i'm okay with more players being happy.

I'm just not okay with people making a mockery of these forums.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Not a single time in this entire thread has anyone said anything close to "NO YOU CANT USE SHURIKEN STOP YOUR AN IDIOT"

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Actually, this has been said many many times. And this post right here, says the exact same "we're idiots if we use shuriken" indirectly. Like I said in my final posts: It doesn't matter if someone enjoys RP'ing, because there will always be the trusty "min/max'ers" to the rescue, ganging up in hordes getting their friends to come over and press their "like button", just in case a Dev happens to stroll across this thread.

Their attempt at being polite and saying "do what you want, we don't care" is just a blatant lie. Because a few sentences later, they're twisted logic comes into effect, preaching to you about how you're ruining the game for them, and you should cease and desist immediately, effectively silencing you in the process.

In the end, they're the makers of their own demise, creating such a distasteful atmosphere for other players, that it diminishes the population and eventually after so long, the servers get shut down. All because they've reached their so called goal of "perfection" and what better to do, than go around and spread their elitist views, like some kind of cult instigating others for "not doing it right".

We can only pray that SE has some sense, and decides not to cater to these power hungry people, who try their hardest to drown out and silence the voice of the opposition. Using salesmen-like tactics, they'll continue to try and market their idea's, and these forums have now become just another battleground for their beloved doctrine: Minimizing the other persons view/Maximizing theirs.

You are allowed to do whatever you want when it doesn't affect anyone else. Yes, you're even allowed to be an idiot when it doesn't affect anyone else. That doesn't mean someone running around tossing Shurikens at things isn't an idiot. It just doesn't matter that they are an idiot if they aren't negatively impacting someone else's gameplay. That is okay.

There is a difference between screwing around on your own and trying to bring shuriken to a populated area or a group scenario, though. If you're running around with a group of people trying to DD with Shuriken instead of melee'ing, you're directly impacting their gameplay by underperforming. If you're taking an hour+ to solo Briareus because you're trying to Shuriken it to death, you're directly impacting everyone else's gameplay by underperforming. That is not okay.

Replying to you seems to be a waste of time, though. You don't read anything at all. You misrepresent everyone who disagrees with you by tearing down fictitious strawmen. You sound like some angsty teenager trying to stick it to the man when the neighbors tell him to turn his music down.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Actually, this has been said many many times. And this post right here, says the exact same "we're idiots if we use shuriken" indirectly. Like I said in my final posts: It doesn't matter if someone enjoys RP'ing, because there will always be the trusty "min/max'ers" to the rescue, ganging up in hordes getting their friends to come over and press their "like button", just in case a Dev happens to stroll across this thread.

Their attempt at being polite and saying "do what you want, we don't care" is just a blatant lie. Because a few sentences later, they're twisted logic comes into effect, preaching to you about how you're ruining the game for them, and you should cease and desist immediately, effectively silencing you in the process.

In the end, they're the makers of their own demise, creating such a distasteful atmosphere for other players, that it diminishes the population and eventually after so long, the servers get shut down. All because they've reached their so called goal of "perfection" and what better to do, than go around and spread their elitist views, like some kind of cult instigating others for "not doing it right".

We can only pray that SE has some sense, and decides not to cater to these power hungry people, who try their hardest to drown out and silence the voice of the opposition. Using salesmen-like tactics, they'll continue to try and market their idea's, and these forums have now become just another battleground for their beloved doctrine: Minimizing the other persons view/Maximizing theirs.

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Please do not put words in my mouth. No ones ruining the game for me. I don't care if they even throw Shurikens while im in the party. I'll not agree with it. but I won't call them out for it.

Anyone can see from point one, You call everyone out on being "power Hungry", while the entire purpose of this thread was to "buff" your own playstyle of shuriken throwing. You want your Shuriken throwing to do more damage, and yet you condemn those who currently hold damage near them.

You may see it as Twisted, But i see it as Fair. You cannot get respect without first giving it. You have not shown an ounce of respect to anyone in this thread yet.

Maybe not every single one of my posts says it, But my argument has been and will remain that you can play how you want, But it won't make that playstyle any better, and that calling us the wrong ones for enjoying the game in our way (Doing it right) is unfair.

I do truly believe players should be able to have fun any way they can in this game, it is after all a game, i truly believe this, I do not care if you think I'm telling the truth or not. However you are not fooling anyone by trying to paint us as the bad guys. They can see your posts just as well as they see mine. And i at least try to say in every one of mine that I feel you can play as you want, Just don't get angry when people don't always respect your "uniqueness".

Edit: Also, DO you think we can just Agree to Disagree? Last time i tried to defend myself on these boards, no matter how nicely i tried to word it, Apparently i was Flamming. I don't feel like having my Account Suspended due to something like this.

As it stands Throwing is not as efficient and straight DD, but is that really a reason to ask SE to make multiple styles of play viable? Why is it necessary for there to be a single "right/best way to play"? If the purpose of playing was simply to fit the cookiecutter "best" and play as mechanically efficient as possible, there would be little reason in having the choice of gear or job choices or any sort of customization...
Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

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Originally Posted by Laciante

As it stands Throwing is not as efficient and straight DD, but is that really a reason to ask SE to make multiple styles of play viable? Why is it necessary for there to be a single "right/best way to play"? If the purpose of playing was simply to fit the cookiecutter "best" and play as mechanically efficient as possible, there would be little reason in having the choice of gear or job choices or any sort of customization...
Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

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Read my post above you! It answers a lot of these question :\

The point isn't that making Throwing Viable is stupid, Its that its unrealistic. Any possible way to make throwing viable at all would either have to completely nerf how we view Dual wield/Haste, Or Buff Throwing so high that it would simply be too powerful to even realistically consider adjusting by SE.

It's not that we're against adding new aspects to the job, We just realize that throwing is something that is simply dead in the water. It cannot be resuscitated by anything short of Gods hand. While I would probably pat SE on the back if they managed to Fix throwing without breaking the game or nerfing NIN, I just can't think of a realistic way.

Someone in another thread mentioned "Throw Attacks", Kind of like "Kick Attacks". Where You'd have ~10% Chance to "toss" a Shuriken at the enemy at the end of your attack stage. He said it wouldn't consume ammo, It would just deal damage based on your Racc/Ratk instead of your Acc/atk. Which I thought was a decent idea, as it only improves Ninjas DPS, not hinder it.

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Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

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Absolutely Not, I don't wanna go on a huge post please just read what i typed right about you. Mainly the parts about respect being a two way street, Players being able to have fun anyway they want, etc. If players who hold a "Unique" Style dear cannot respect us who hold the "right way" dear ro them, They can not expect us to respect them any more than they respect us.

Respect is earned and not given. If i Join a party and the NIN is just standing in range full R.acc/r.atk armor tossing Shuriken, I won't belittle him, I'd probably run a parse to see how well he's doing, But i'd let him do his thing as long as he doesn't start yammering about how gimp someone else is, or how bad another NIN is for not throwing Shuriken.

Its when the insults come into play that i stand and object.

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Originally Posted by Laciante

As it stands Throwing is not as efficient and straight DD, but is that really a reason to ask SE to make multiple styles of play viable? Why is it necessary for there to be a single "right/best way to play"? If the purpose of playing was simply to fit the cookiecutter "best" and play as mechanically efficient as possible, there would be little reason in having the choice of gear or job choices or any sort of customization...

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Through this entire thread I have explained to you that throwing cannot be made good, without seriously breaking the games mechanics. And if you think about it, if they broke the games mechanics, and made throwing good, that would become the new best way to play ninja, and would suddenly become 'cookie cutter' as you put it. Things become 'cookie cutter' because they are good, and for no other reason, you can label it as bad, but in actuality, 'cookie cutter' is usually best, because that's how it becomes 'cookie cutter.' All you are really doing, is asking for the way you want to play ninja to become the standard.

Different gear being available isn't so people can wear whatever they want based on whims. It's there to suit specific purposes of, you guessed it, playing efficiently. And it's not like SE set out to create static subs for certain jobs, it just works out that some subjobs out perform others. You can go be gimp and sub whatever you want, no one is stopping you, but you need to quit advocating BS and asking for the impossible. You should learn how the game works, so you have a better understanding of what would need to be done to fix things.

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Originally Posted by Laciante

Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

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The only truly terrible players, are the ones who don't know anything about how the game works, and refuse to learn.

Wrong guy Wish.

lol, I saw the elf face and didn't look at the name. Good catch.

how do I join TEAMcat Wish :(

this thread has also made for some good reading.

Throwing should be fixed, period.

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Originally Posted by JiltedValkyrie

Throwing should be fixed, period.

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Fair Enough. How?

1 Rule. Can't nerf ninja in any way.

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Originally Posted by JiltedValkyrie

Throwing should be fixed, period.

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There's no point in posting about the obvious, because the do-good'ers will just be on you about it, till the day they die.

At the moment, throwing does suck, and should be improved. But all you will get, especially in this thread, is continued assault about why we can't come up with a workable idea. Not to mention the "logic" in how fixing something that is kind of pointless to have in the game anyways, should just be over-looked or destroyed, tossed aside and forgotten about.

Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just kill it, turn your back the other way and be done with it. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities". But, I'm not sure they even understand that concept anyways.

so come up with a workable idea and prove us wrong

Well RaenRyong, to quote what he said:

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Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just kill it, turn your back the other way and be done with it. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities".

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Let's have some fun and rearrange this quote to better suit this thread.

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Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just complain about it, turn your back on anything anyone else says and be done with discussion and instead be a hypocrite. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities".

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

so come up with a workable idea and prove us wrong

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^ I Keep saying this. And I'm ignored.

Give me 1 True way to Fix throwing as a viable form of DD that does not including Nerfing Ninja in any way.

And I'm a man of my word, I will tip my hat to you.

Cause As I've said before. I'm not opposed to the Idea. I just cannot Think of a way to Improve on it.

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

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Exact same thing I was thinking.

But, they seem to think we're on SE's payroll, either that or they just expect us to sit there all day and run the numbers. And even then if we did come up with a workable solution, the expected response is just "ehhh... It's too difficult. Just forget about it and boost Dual Wield some more or somethin...".

So, it's probably best to just leave it up to them. They seem to be willing to do everything for free AND pay SE $12.95/month.

No wonder they're "The Best" at the game. They help design the freaken mechanics! lol...

Cause then we end up with Sange 2.0 :\

And We don't think your on SE's payroll, But when you make a thread about something, You generally present a Solution as well.

If the people who want it the most, Can't think of a Solution, How will SE?

Edit: You don't need to work for SE to understand Mechanics... :| I might not speak for everyone, But i would welcome an addition to throwing that helps NIN, I just can't think of one, and we can't assume SE will have some magic fix, Or we get Sange.

If the people who actually play the game are unable to come up with a working solution, it's rather ridiculous to expect the Developers to be able to do it.

It's not like we know less about most existing game mechanics than they do. It's not super complex stuff. The Devs, however, work all day with all of the game's content and jobs. Players, on the other hand, may work all day with only some of the game's content and some of the jobs. This gives us a more precise outlook on potential problems and solutions.

Unfortunately, at the same time it tends to give some players Tunnel Vision. Heck, recently in the WHM forums people were talking about adding a Spell that removed weakness. You know. A spell that basically does exactly what Mijin Gakure does =/. Everyone wants to buff "Their favorite" job in every possible way. The Developer's job is NOT to appease all of these people, as that would just create a completely chaotic mess of the game. Rather, their job is to find ways to give jobs new abilities without presenting visible bias or obsoleting jobs.

Yeah, sometimes they mess up. Players will always find ways to determine what is best, even if only by a small margin. Gaps appear that the Devs may not have accounted for. But that doesn't mean they are going to intentionally go and completely break the existing mechanics of the game for anyone.

If NINs cannot come up with a solid, working way to make Throwing relevant without ignoring existing game mechanics, the Devs won't have a clue how to do it.

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want? I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

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Originally Posted by Ulric

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want?

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None, lets hope they don't bother, this thread is just a bunch of whiners QQing cause math and game mechanics say throwing is garbage and cannot be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Ulric

I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

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The problem with 'debuff' shurikens is that ninja already has spells for all the good ones.(slow and blind) Unless they wanted to put amnesia on one, but that's pretty much not going to happen, and if it did, it would be stupid to get, like PP arrows, or current shurikens.

There's a complete lack of 'ideas' to make throwing usable in this thread, in case you didn't notice or read it. All the OP does is resort to name calling and saying no one loves him when you say anything to him, he won't even respond when you ask him direct questions. And the only worthwhile suggestion in other threads, is the one to give ninja basically 'kick attacks' like monk, but make it throwing attacks, and acc/damage based on ranged acc/att, that way you can use the throwing skill for something, and you don't lose DPS or TP gain, but actually increase both.

"Throwing attacks" is actually a good idea.

Another is an improvement to Sange, such as having more higher level, readily available shuriken (why SE would make Fuma Shuriken only yield 3 per synth and stack to 12 is beyond me). And I'm not talking about 400 DPS Shuriken, I'm talking about 120~ DMG (since Lv75 Koga Shuriken are 88 DMG) that would make sense.

The tactic behind it, if you haven't thought of it yet, would be to pop Sange at the beginning of the fight, and throw for some initial high burst DMG. The improvement to Sange would be, not to have it make you lose shadows and replace that with higher enmity generation or allow it to hit critically for each of the 5 shots or something along those lines.

Switching Qirmiz tathlum with another ammo piece does not make you lose TP. As for Ungur Boomerang? Oh well, but I suppose most of us could live without that extra 8 evasion. So there, I came up with an idea. But it's not like SE couldn't have figured out something like that for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

"Throwing attacks" is actually a good idea.

Another is an improvement to Sange, such as having more higher level, readily available shuriken (why SE would make Fuma Shuriken only yield 3 per synth and stack to 12 is beyond me). And I'm not talking about 400 DPS Shuriken, I'm talking about 120~ DMG (since Lv75 Koga Shuriken are 88 DMG) that would make sense.

The tactic behind it, if you haven't thought of it yet, would be to pop Sange at the beginning of the fight, and throw for some initial high burst DMG. The improvement to Sange would be, not to have it make you lose shadows and replace that with higher enmity generation or allow it to hit critically for each of the 5 shots or something along those lines.

Switching Qirmiz tathlum with another ammo piece does not make you lose TP. As for Ungur Boomerang? Oh well, but I suppose most of us could live without that extra 8 evasion. So there, I came up with an idea. But it's not like SE couldn't have figured out something like that for themselves.

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I'm all for adding improvements to Sange/Throwing that involve simply "Initiating Combat" perspectives like the one above.

If there were ~D:120 Shuriken I could make readily, I would use Sange more if i had it merited. As it wouldn't interfere with Melee-Damage output ;o if used as an "Initiating Attack" like you described.

However, I think they should remove the "We take yer shadows" part of Sange. Shadows and Ammo are just too far. One or the other :\ (Please Keep shadows =.=)

"Throwing Attacks" (Like "Kick Attack") i think is by far the best suggestion though ;o

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

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Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

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Originally Posted by Shoko

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing.

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Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

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Ranged Attacks will never be "awesome" because of the required innate delay in aiming and putting away a Ranged weapon. This especially harms Low Delay Ranged Weapons (uh, hi Shuriken) because the required innate delay is a larger proportion of the total Ranged Attack Delay.

The only viable fixes for Throwing itself (eg, not counting Throwing Attacks) would pretty much have to come in the form of either:

A) Fulltime Quintuple Throw, similar to Triple/Double Shot. Granted, this will be expensive as all hell to maintain (and rightly should be). I would not mind new Shuriken. But I'd like them to stack to 99, and not require Campaign Union spoils to craft. I rightly expect to be paying like 50k/99 though, or 600k for a stack of "Shuriken... Bags...". That's perfectly fine as long as the supply is stable enough for people to actually find them in stock.

or B) Entirely new Ranged attack mechanics for the game. This will probably never happen, and if it did it would most definitely break Ranger. This is what people are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Shoko

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

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120~130 DMG Shuriken would still massively gimp your melee damage. The idea (in spirit of the OP) was to make Throwing tangible as a form of damage during combat.

But sadly, With a Ninja's natural Dual wield, and haste gear, They attack quite often. So even if the Shuriken had a delay of 10, theres a "2 second" universal action window that delays your attacks. Meaning for 2 seconds after you hit "Ranged attack" no other attacks/r.atks can be preformed, (or job abilities/WS) If you're on RNG, you notice this having to wait a while after the Animation for ranged attack goes off in order to preform a WS or use a Job Ability, Yes?

So a D:120 Shuriken would only do ~300 DMG inside Abyssea(stretching it), and during which, You've lose 1 Attack round, which inside abyssea is at least 500-600 Damage or more depending on Crits/Double/triple attacks. Thats where the "Makin RNG obsolete or nerfing NIN's Dual Wield" comes from. the Shuriken itself would have to deal over ~800 damage to make up for the damage lost from the 2-sec universal delay, and the Ranged-Attack Animation (assuming it gets another ~120 delay like other Shuriken).

This is all of course assuming those who want a fix to Throwing are asking for ways to use it more and maintain their damage.

Another Solution would be to have Shuriken give a large amount of TP. Could give a "Shuriken TP Bonus" Job Trait that, instead of giving Store-TP to shuriken, Boosts TP Gained by Shuriken per level. I.E

Shuriken give ~6TP.

Lv. 10
戦術的な - 手裏剣 - Raises TP gained from Thrown Attacks.
(Tactical Shuriken)

Up to...

Lv.90
Tactical Shurikan V

Which, Each trait would give an additional 6TP per Shuriken, for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

this would work well with the level 85~95 Shuriken. It wouldn't make up the damage, but maybe just maybe it would make up for it in WS-phase Damage. I'll leave it up to Wish/GG

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Originally Posted by Shoko

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

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Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

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Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

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Shurikens need to do just over 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain to stay on par with just meleeing. (see earlier in the thread) More then this if they are to be better and useful and worth buying and losing inventory/gil for. Your idea would fix the TP gain, but not the damage, around 36 tp per shuriken only the TP is keeping up, and it's not increasing WS frequency. This plus like 700 base damage shurikens would be required with current game mechanics, maybe more, I'm not going to do the math to say exactly what it is, but rest assured 700 is low balling it.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Shurikens need to do just over 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain to stay on par with just meleeing. (see earlier in the thread) More then this if they are to be better and useful and worth buying and losing inventory/gil for. Your idea would fix the TP gain, but not the damage, around 36 tp per shuriken only the TP is keeping up, and it's not increasing WS frequency. This plus like 700 base damage shurikens would be required with current game mechanics, maybe more, I'm not going to do the math to say exactly what it is, but rest assured 700 is low balling it.

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Sometimes i forget how beast NIN is :|

Hmmm, Well there goes that idea too. I'm trying not to break the game when i do this, But lets see. Maybe starting at level 10, NIN could get a Shuriken Mastery type Job Trait. Each level would do something like this.

Lv.15 *Increases TP Gain, R.acc, Critical hit rate/damage, Reduces Delay, and Increases Damage of Shurikens
lv. 30
lv. 45
lv. 60
lv. 75
lv. 90

VI Tiers.
*Shuriken Damage: Increases Damage based on your level (your level x1.5) I.E if you're level 40, it adds 60DMG to your shuriken. level 90 adds 135.
*Delay Reduction. Starts at 10%, increases relative to Dual wield.
*Increases Critical hit rate by 5%, Damage by 5% per level. total 30% Each.
*Ranged accuracy: increases R.acc by 5 each tier (total 30)
*Increases TP Gained per shuriken by 7 Each level (Total 48TP Per Shuriken)

This is breaking the game in my eyes, and even i think it wouldn't be enough.

It doesn't seem to matter anyways, because the norm is that you phase out "crappy" jobs from the roster. If a job doesn't put out what you want it to, does it matter if the person playing it is having fun or not? It's just like what saevel said in another thread... "The whole WAR, MNK, SAM, BRD, BRD, RDM mentality" where players pick and choose jobs based on efficiency and speedy battles...

You may think I'm calling you out or something, but I highly doubt you even bring RNG to events, especially inside Abyssea, and especially if that person has another "better" DD job such as WAR, SAM or MNK. And sure it's cool that you want to win quick and grab as much loot as possible. But that same style of play is also teetering the game out of balance.

Ranged attacks themselves are getting worse and worse, according to your standards I'm guessing. Not to mention the fact that there isn't many situational bosses that require ranged DD to be there, which was another thing I've been asking for. The whole "Spank and Tank" gameplay gets boring after awhile for some people. And the idea behind this thread was to implement different styles of play, not to be harassed about how idiotic we are because we can't beat a boss in 5 minutes instead of 7.

Karb/Wish/GG, you do what pleases you. But don't expect everyone else to take a back seat to efficiency because their favorite job has become "obsolete" so to speak.

I don't know why you insist on bundling me with those two in terms of "Tone of post". I've repeatedly told you that you can play however you want and enjoy the game. REPEATEDLY. I never expect anyone to quit a job.

Did you even read the part where i said I low-manned with my friends? Repeatedly allowing my brother to come on his DRK? DRK is an inefficient job in abyssea, but he enjoys it so i let him do it.

However, The entire idea of this thread however was to improve Throwing to increase its damage and make it more viable as an option to Ninjas, Which is where i commented on. and once your ignorance and hatred left the thread, you can see above we actually made some improvement.

Proof to the positive you are the main source killing your own thread. Instead of offering anything meaningful to the discussion, You make 3 paragraph posts Insulting everyone who has posted recently, and then makes fun of Me, Wish, and GG, then move on to do it again 2 posts later without even reading anything we type.

I say you don't read, cause I've repeatedly encouraged people who post here to play how they want, but also reminding them in an MMO not everyone would accept them like me, and their playstyle is not always met with open arms because its not efficient or damage friendly, yet you seem to repeatedly lump me in with the "Kill yourself" mentality the others have.

I share their opinions and views, but I use a different tone to get my point across.

This post is for Karbuncle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

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It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

The honest to goodness best Solution is to offer Ideas.

Spit-ball some fixes, Really think about it.

If you suggest productive means of improvements, others will follow. I even build on them when i see potential.

Just make some suggestions for your own thread, And people will follow. Really really think them out, Weigh the pro's and cons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Shuriken give ~6TP.

Lv. 10
戦術的な - 手裏剣 - Raises TP gained from Thrown Attacks.
(Tactical Shuriken)

Up to...

Lv.90
Tactical Shurikan V

Which, Each trait would give an additional 6TP per Shuriken, for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

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stack this with Sange and you have a mini-Meditate, hit 3 times and you instantly get another WS. if they make Sange fire off instantly like Eagle Eye Shot it would be even better, you could solo skillchain with any sub you want :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orenwald

stack this with Sange and you have a mini-Meditate, hit 3 times and you instantly get another WS. if they make Sange fire off instantly like Eagle Eye Shot it would be even better, you could solo skillchain with any sub you want :D

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Now all we need to do is get rid of Sange Removing Shadows and we're golden.

WS > Sange > WS > Skillchain.

That wouldn't be that bad of a fix. Maybe as to break it less, the "TP Bonus for ranged attacks" Could only apply to Sange. Meaning you could isntantly get ~150TP With Sange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

This post is for Karbuncle




It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

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Even I've said a dozen times now that I don't give a shit what you do or how you play on your own time. You haven't only been skimming Karbuncle's posts, but everyone's because you find some random hot-button to freak out over before you actually comprehend the content.

This thread would be a lot better if the OP actually attempted to offer a single solution which is actually viable under the constrictions imposed by the game's mechanics. That is the #1 big thing that I've been trying to impress for the past few pages. Saying "Buff throwing because I like it" isn't going to get you very far when it's extremely difficult to come up with a working way to do so. Those very difficulties are the reason why Throwing has been left on the wayside by most players.

Frankly, I really haven't seen a single good point from you. It's mostly just freaking out over how we're "Stomping on your rights" and "trying to oppress you" and such. Hell, I feel like even I've contributed more worthwhile information to this thread than you have. But that doesn't bother me. Continue to shit up your thread all you want despite the fact that everyone else was actually having a polite discussion about the only idea anyone has had this entire time that was at all feasible. It's not my problem.

Spitballing is fine, but throwing out ideas that are impossible to implement or are too vague to even imagine implementing isn't going to do any good. In order to find a way to adjust Throwing in FFXI to make it feasible, you have to first know how Throwing and FFXI work. Unfortunately, a lot of people most certainly do not, and when they post things which are most definitely impossible or which are just so completely outside the bounds of reality it just infinitely frustrates and angers the people who are actually trying to think up a solution.

I've tried. Other people have tried. I seriously can't think of jack shit. Throwing Attacks is the only good idea to come out of all of these throwing threads combined, and it's good solely because it does not use the /RA command. If you could sit down and attempt to actually find a solution that works, rather than freaking out on those of us who know "Idea X won't work", this thread would be a lot better off.