Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

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05-21-2015, 12:58 PM
PlumbGame

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

Do you care to actually refute any of the points I make, or are you merely calling me out on my credentials? Because as far as I'm seeing this, you're all wrong, you cannot actually dispute anything I say, so you're latching on that one assertion and completely ignoring the merit of all the other arguments because you can't actually come up with with anything to counter them because I am right and you are wrong.

I understand you really, really want a classic server, but you need to accept reality.

I just did.

Don't tell me to refute something you never refuted in the first place, then not like the example I gave.

it's as easy as typing everquest into your search engine.
05-21-2015, 01:00 PM
machini

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I just did.

Don't tell me to refute something you never refuted in the first place, then not like the example I gave.

it's as easy as typing everquest into your search engine.

Thank you for proving that you are nothing but a blind zealot incapable of listening to anything that contradicts your deeply held belief that a classic server is totes viable and profitable and the only reason Squeenix has decided not to make one is not because they did a silly thing like a cost-benefit analysis on how much money it would take and how much of a return they were likely to get, but solely because you have to pleaded and cried for it enough.
05-21-2015, 01:01 PM
PlumbGame

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

Thank you for proving that you are nothing but a blind zealot incapable of listening to anything that contradicts your deeply held belief that a classic server is totes viable and profitable and the only reason Squeenix has decided not to make one is not because they did a silly thing like a cost-benefit analysis on how much money it would take and how much of a return they were likely to get, but solely because you have to pleaded and cried for it enough.

I listen to many things that contradicts my beliefs. I just like facts.

Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.
05-21-2015, 01:05 PM
machini

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I listen to many things that contradicts my beliefs. I just like facts.

Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

You have given no facts yourself. Your entire argument hinges on "There were more players in the past, therefore the past version of the game is better, and recreating the past version of the game would result in increased players". You do not take into account the amount of time and money that would be required to do such a thing. You do not take into account the idea that the people who are interested in playing FFXI are already playing FFXI. You do not take into account that the player base from back then has aged and changed. Many of my friends who played FFXI when we were younger now have families, children, and careers, and cannot devote time to playing an MMO.

Your entire argument that a a classic server would work is based on your desire to have one.

Furthermore, I typed in EverQuest into google, and saw nothing that said that a classic server for FFXI would be massively profitable.
05-21-2015, 01:09 PM
PlumbGame

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

You have given no facts yourself. Your entire argument hinges on "There were more players in the past, therefore the past version of the game is better, and recreating the past version of the game would result in increased players". You do not take into account the amount of time and money that would be required to do such a thing. You do not take into account the idea that the people who are interested in playing FFXI are already playing FFXI. You do not take into account that the player base from back then has aged and changed. Many of my friends who played FFXI when we were younger now have families, children, and careers, and cannot devote time to playing an MMO.

Your entire argument that a a classic server would work is based on your desire to have one.

Furthermore, I typed in EverQuest into google, and saw nothing that said that a classic server for FFXI would be massively profitable.

/facepalm. And the circle continues.
05-21-2015, 01:14 PM
detlef

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I can see what you are saying, but then use other games as an example. Not only have I ran into teenagers still play everquest, but what about all the 30+ 40+ year olds making up an at least 5k+ (this is being generous) population that just capped out their server on the TLP that launched?.

I don’t really have an opinion on this except to postulate that EQ players appear to be very, very loyal to the original game for whatever reason. And I would hazard a guess (correct me if I’m wrong) that it is related to EQ being the only (?) serious MMO option at the time and therefore the people who played were very loyal and passionate about it. That’s all I can really say with my limited knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlumbGame

You are trying to present "this is 2015, no one has time for this" type comment, but it is completely false, even more so with studies being shown all the time with the increasing popularity of gaming and stuff like LoL hitting 3/4 (iirc) the size of the superbowl in terms of people watching. People have all the time in the world to sit around and play, and hence if you need to look at the examples already given.

I guess I am saying that to a degree because 30-40 year olds generally have less free time to devote to gaming. But I also think that there are many more things competing for time even just looking at home entertainment. Things like mobile gaming and services like Netflix now take up huge chunks of our time. A game like FFXI could skate by back then, but in today’s cutthroat environment, a lot more effort is required to get people to choose to play your game.

The rest of the stuff you posted had to do with how tough for SE to do this and I can’t give an educated opinion on that except to say that if it was really easy to do, maybe it would be in the works.
05-21-2015, 01:14 PM
machini

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires. And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.
05-21-2015, 01:17 PM
bungiefanNA

All client development requires PS2 dev kits. Server development is different, because it doesn't need the graphical and audio assets. Unofficial servers run mostly on SQL, and something running calculations of events. Official servers shouldn't be too different except in scale, since they are running on multiple machines working together.
05-21-2015, 01:30 PM
PlumbGame

Quote:

Originally Posted by detlef

I don’t really have an opinion on this except to postulate that EQ players appear to be very, very loyal to the original game for whatever reason. And I would hazard a guess (correct me if I’m wrong) that it is related to EQ being the only (?) serious MMO option at the time and therefore the people who played were very loyal and passionate about it. That’s all I can really say with my limited knowledge.

I guess I am saying that to a degree because 30-40 year olds generally have less free time to devote to gaming. But I also think that there are many more things competing for time even just looking at home entertainment. Things like mobile gaming and services like Netflix now take up huge chunks of our time. A game like FFXI could skate by back then, but in today’s cutthroat environment, a lot more effort is required to get people to choose to play your game.

The rest of the stuff you posted had to do with how tough for SE to do this and I can’t give an educated opinion on that except to say that if it was really easy to do, maybe it would be in the works.

I do get where you are coming from though. I would never think that FFXI population will be as grand as it once was, but I do think at least 1 server would succeed. Hell, I know people, 15, 20, 30, 60, whatever, that will just come back just for the sake of the HNM game and being able to try and lock other people out of HNM claims. It's obvious that many of us enjoy current FFXI, I even enjoy current FFXI. I was super excited at the ease of restrictions on dynamis etc... That being said, again, I feel the amount of population interested in something like this is undervalued

I agree too, a lot of what we talk about is truly something only SE would know. Well to a degree, they can only pinpoint the most popular era based off of subs, no actual survey though. This is one reason other games are used, specifically EQ, at least from my perspective. EQ is one, if not the only MMORPG out there that can pin point similar aspects that exist in FFXI in the 75 days. The only real difference, to me at least, is the FF skin. Using this to your knowledge, you have to assume there is loyal fans also, well, actually, there is. You can use FFXIV to support that since it's one of the most successful WoW clones ever on the market, which I think is argubly because of the fan base if you are to look at similar wow clones success compared to WoW itself. Anyways, you can assume that there may be a success doing the same idea here. I think even more so given that FFXIs pop at peak was roughly 4 to 5x the amount EQ hit, leaving a vastly larger audience to appeal to.
05-21-2015, 01:44 PM
machini

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

All client development requires PS2 dev kits. Server development is different, because it doesn't need the graphical and audio assets. Unofficial servers run mostly on SQL, and something running calculations of events. Official servers shouldn't be too different except in scale, since they are running on multiple machines working together.

Any alteration of the server that would involve data that would be visible to the client, such as weapon/equipment statistics, item descriptions, returning widescan to its old functionality, or seasonal adding and removal of NPCs would require changes to the client data.

The client-server model that FFXI uses places an extreme amount of trust in the client. A good deal of calculation and decision is not done server side. This means that making changes to the server will require changes to the client, which means server development requires the capability to do client development.
05-21-2015, 02:34 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires. And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.

This peaceful request for a classic server has now turned into name calling because for some reason people and I will bold this... Just cannot accept another person's playstyle and only see things in BLACK and WHITE

In no way is it ANYONE's business to really debate how successful money wise this endeavor would be. That is SE's job. Not the forums. This is a simple post, for a legacy server that clearly people want. If SE wants to take a shot at it and bring back some new players, what harm is there in doing so?

You would still have two kinds of servers.

Why are you whining like a whambulance?

This idea is win win for both sides because... get ready for it... you have a choice.

You can choose the "legacy" server or current one. The question WE pose to SE is if it is viable to do so. In the end opinions about its success are stupid to debate unless you can magically see the future.

People posted similar examples of games, yes they are not FFXI but they are MMORPGs. It tends to show a pattern but, heck, it may work or not. The simple fact that SE is doing the VERY same thing on a phone speaks volumes to how they admit the current system does not work for a new game attracting NEW players. The devs SAID in their fresh pick, that in the past they have focused on new content but in the future will focus on OLD content now and revamping it for new players. What that means is anyone's guess but a "legacy" server would go a long way to achieving that goal.

Again... to finalize this... the OP was ASKING SE for a classic server. NOT erase the current ones. If they have the man power or money to do that, then they should know there is interest in that. Shouting at people and calling them names (or calling the idea stupid) is a trolls way to lock the thread so they can get their way. Please be civil... everyone. Respect everyone's playstyle and see that some people did indeed leave FFXI due to the changes it underwent. The only way to really debate how many would return would be a poll on a neutral (non-pay) site so they could get a tally. Or better yet. SE should e-mail everyone who left the game and ask if they would return if they opened a classic server.

Then... and only then would you have your answer. The ball is really in SE's court now and just bashing people with a new idea to bring in new players to a game you love dearly... WHY? What does this accomplish? A locked thread? Maybe that is what some people want around here.

Since SE is low on resources and said they would no longer make new content, why are you worried if some dev time is directed to a classic server. Even IF it fails, you have lost nothing. The devs aren't giving anymore content, why not try this idea so they can get some possible money out of it and please players who have left. It would take less work to just slap an older version on a server then it is to make an expansion. At the moment SE only has a few options to get players back and the age of using new content to do so is OVER. This idea is really more viable instead of leaving the servers to die as they are now. The number of subs aren't increasing btw, unlike the private servers...
05-21-2015, 02:40 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires.

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.

You just said people should stop name calling and what did you just say in the SAME post?
05-21-2015, 03:00 PM
machini

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prrsha

You just said people should stop name calling and what did you just say in the SAME post?

The issue here is someone said "what's the argument against a classic server now?" and people responded with "the arguments against a classic server" which boil down to "it's not worth the money to SE to make one".

That's it. End of conversation. This thread should be dead and pushing up the daisies.
05-21-2015, 03:20 PM
nekroturkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

"it's not worth the money to SE to make one"

Proof?

Otherwise, I'm going to have to counter with "it would be worth the money for SE to make one."
05-21-2015, 03:38 PM
Shirai

Bring your best
05-21-2015, 03:45 PM
machini

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekroturkey

Proof?

Otherwise, I'm going to have to counter with "it would be worth the money for SE to make one."

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it. The reason they're stopping development of FFXI is there's not enough money in doing more development. The reason they're not making a classic server is they don't think there's enough money in it.
05-21-2015, 03:46 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

This thread should be dead and pushing up the daisies.

Since when you do have the authority to declare a topic dead? Are you a moderator, no.

The point still stands true as there are people who wish SE to consider a classic server. As long as there is, no... the topic is not dead. If anything, it will resurface again and again (like it already has). However now FFXI is not offering anymore new content, this bears repeating.
05-21-2015, 03:46 PM
machini

This is just like with the server merger thread. Some guy screams "SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and SE doesn't do them. "SE LOOK AT MY NUMBERS SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and people point out that SE has better numbers than he does. "NO WE NEED MERGERS WHARRHLGMG"
05-21-2015, 03:48 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it. The reason they're stopping development of FFXI is there's not enough money in doing more development. The reason they're not making a classic server is they don't think there's enough money in it.

Proof plz. Do you work for SE? If not your opinion is only that.
05-21-2015, 03:52 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

This is just like with the server merger thread. Some guy screams "SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and SE doesn't do them. "SE LOOK AT MY NUMBERS SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and people point out that SE has better numbers than he does. "NO WE NEED MERGERS WHARRHLGMG"

Honestly... is there an ignore button on the forums. Complaint after complaint instead of a constructive idea or alternative like say...

How about implement a self level cap like I posted in another thread? Eh?

That way people who have maxed there level can level down to a level of their choosing and form a party and have a blast in CoP like it was intended in the "old days"

Something like: /synch Prrsha 20 ... and poof I am level 20.

There are too few players with lower level jobs to do older content with the old fashioned way.
05-21-2015, 03:58 PM
Shirai

The burden of proof lies on both sides and I still haven't seen any proof of a classic server being economically viable.
I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.
05-21-2015, 04:00 PM
nekroturkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it.

You mean like an FFVII HD remake? Or Nintendo making a full-fledged, main entry Pokemon game for home consoles? Both of those would make money, don't you agree? Yet neither one has happened yet.

You have no way of proving that money is the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.

To be fair, despite the fact that I'm pro-classic server, I wouldn't join a legacy linkshell. It'd be a total headache to get set up on the current servers.
05-21-2015, 04:01 PM
Shirai

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.
05-21-2015, 04:01 PM
Hellkat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

The burden of proof lies on both sides and I still haven't seen any proof of a classic server being economically viable.
I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.

lol they most likely moved to private servers. All I see is one hand full of people rejecting the idea.
05-21-2015, 04:03 PM
Hellkat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.

Where is your argument period? Proof like the others say!
05-21-2015, 04:03 PM
Shirai

Wrong, it's not rejecting an idea.
If you actually read, all we're giving is reasons why it's unlikely to happen, yet all we get is "you're wrong, you meany, you hater!"
05-21-2015, 04:06 PM
nekroturkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.

http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ne...q4earnings.pdf
05-21-2015, 04:09 PM
Shirai

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.
Because I am of a firm believe that it won't.
05-21-2015, 04:14 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

Wrong, it's not rejecting an idea.
If you actually read, all we're giving is reasons why it's unlikely to happen, yet all we get is "you're wrong, you meany, you hater!"

The debate should not be if it is likely to happen or unlikely... you are derailing the thread. The issue is about players wanting a classic server and if it would bring players back. The answer is yes. You nor I don't know for a fact if it will work or fail. This thread is for a plea to SE to make one. It is up to them to decide. What do you care anyhow if there is a classic server? You'd still get to play in your own server.

To debate fiscal facts is pointless because you will never know unless it is tried what the outcome will be. All you post are opinions and just that. The same goes for people who say it will be a fiscal success. It is just an opinion not fact. Did the OP ask how much money SE would make when they made the opening post? No. The thread is about player interest in a server. If you want to talk about money etiquette would dictate it be done in another thread maybe?
05-21-2015, 04:15 PM
nekroturkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

You were asking me for proof that money wouldn't be an issue, which I gave. Your next question is another one entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.

I've already given my reasons, you're asking me to repeat myself. I'm still waiting for one of you anti-classic server folks to give me any proof that a classic server wouldn't be successful. Instead, you're all just making yourselves angry and spouting off your opinions as fact.
05-21-2015, 04:16 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shirai

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.
Because I am of a firm believe that it won't.

No one will convince you because no one can. Nor can you dispute its potential success. All you can look at are other examples of MMORPGs and even that =/= FFXI.
05-21-2015, 04:22 PM
Shirai

I am dictating nothing, I am merely answering the question what the main argument against such a classic server is, which, like any corporate decission, is money.

And it's clear a lot of you have no idea how large corporations think.
05-21-2015, 04:30 PM
Hellkat

lol people think they are CEOs. It is like an endless record playing. Haven't others told you what you think is an only an opinion? Prove to me you have a business degree major.
05-21-2015, 04:34 PM
Shirai

You can say that for both sides, let's just agree that we disagree and neither side is going to give in because there is no right in this debate, nor is there any wrong for that matter.
Although I am sure some people would love to debate that last statement of mine.

And no, I don't have a business major, but I am an IT employee of a major corporation however so I do have a little insight on what machinery and the people maintaining it cost on a yearly basis.
05-21-2015, 04:47 PM
Prrsha

Sigh... it seems no one listens. Money is not the issue here. If SE wanted to remake FFXI on a whim and lose money like they did in FFXIV (in the beginning) they could do so. Every action isn't always money related. Some is about company loyalty. Just because YOU can't see the reasoning in something, doesn't mean another person, or company... may see a potential opportunity where you see none.

Me thinks you underestimate how many people left due to the major changes FFXI underwent. I can speak for FACT and I would post facebook comments (with permission only) that the MAJORITY of my LS left DUE to abyssea after a few months. They tried coming back but all saw it too different for their taste now. My LS members numbered around 100+ between the two. MithraPride was huge. Emerald Arcanum was large as well but never reached 100.

Yes, as strange as it seems we just about all keep in contact (some often, some seldom) via facebook. I kept a list on paper back in the day of everyone's e-mail and account name, so it was easy to round up a facebook ring. We were all good friends who played for many years. I posted the above stats about my LS and such. Heck... I should just try to contact as many as I can in the small amount of time that is left during the free trial... have them post so you will shut up about "handfuls" of people. It would put the matter to rest that many vets still wish to play FFXI but will not due to the changes. Hence the idea for a server. Blech...
05-21-2015, 05:33 PM
Alhanelem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prrsha

Since when you do have the authority to declare a topic dead? Are you a moderator, no.

The point still stands true as there are people who wish SE to consider a classic server. As long as there is, no... the topic is not dead. If anything, it will resurface again and again (like it already has). However now FFXI is not offering anymore new content, this bears repeating.

There are also people who don't wish them to, but don't even need to as we know they won't. The only thing the proponents of this are going to get is the mobile game.

Quote:

Nor can you dispute its potential success.

Or its potential failiure. I'm not saying it couldn't work at all, but all the supporters here are overstating its prospects based on not a lot of actual information.

Quote:

Sigh... it seems no one listens. Money is not the issue here. If SE wanted to remake FFXI on a whim and lose money like they did in FFXIV (in the beginning) they could do so. Every action isn't always money related.

It indirectly was about the money for FFXIV. They saw the original version as having potentially irrepreably damaging the final fantasy brand, and they felt like they had to fix it so their flagship franchise would keep bringing in the goods. Of course, the result was very successful and a win for pretty much everyone involved. The players got a better game and SE got more money.
05-21-2015, 06:18 PM
Prrsha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There are also people who don't wish them to, but don't even need to as we know they won't. The only thing the proponents of this are going to get is the mobile game.

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.
05-21-2015, 07:42 PM
Zarchery

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellkat

lol they most likely moved to private servers. All I see is one hand full of people rejecting the idea.

Funny. I see about half a dozen people supporting the idea and insisting that their half dozen extrapolates to the 2,000 or so a classic server would need.

Both pro and con sides are arguing an opinion here. Difference is that the the "con" people are honest enough to admit it.
05-21-2015, 08:02 PM
Zarchery

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prrsha

In no way is it ANYONE's business to really debate how successful money wise this endeavor would be. That is SE's job. Not the forums. This is a simple post, for a legacy server that clearly people want.

Yet here we are. You're free to leave this thread and stop debating any time you want. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes.

Quote:

If SE wants to take a shot at it and bring back some new players, what harm is there in doing so?

No harm to the players. I have seen almost nobody claim this. Stop making this strawman. I think the closest we got was Anahalem's (sorry I can't remember how to spell his name) assertion that it would divide the playerbase, but he was the only one saying that.

It'd be great harm to SquareEnix to invest time and money into a product with little demand. Like Pepsi bringing back Pepsi Kona. Yeah I liked, some other people liked it, but it was a terrible flop. Given your ideas of how business works, I should probably extrapolate that to several million and conclude that a return of Pepsi Kona is a no-brainer good idea.
05-21-2015, 09:10 PM
madmartin

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

You need to stop. You obviously have no first-hand experience with the private servers you're talking about. They are incomplete, do not have proper loot or spawn tables, half the JAs do absolutely nothing, and a great deal of other stuff is wrong with them. They are not anything approaching playable. They also do not incorporate any of the live server source code.

this is the biggrest load of rubbish i've read on this thread so far....

Quote:

Originally Posted by machini

Any alteration of the server that would involve data that would be visible to the client, such as weapon/equipment statistics, item descriptions, returning widescan to its old functionality, or seasonal adding and removal of NPCs would require changes to the client data.

The client-server model that FFXI uses places an extreme amount of trust in the client. A good deal of calculation and decision is not done server side. This means that making changes to the server will require changes to the client, which means server development requires the capability to do client development.

This is also rubbish, except maybe the item stats and descriptions bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarchery

Funny. I see about half a dozen people supporting the idea and insisting that their half dozen extrapolates to the 2,000 or so a classic server would need.

Both pro and con sides are arguing an opinion here. Difference is that the the "con" people are honest enough to admit it.

Classic ffxi survives perfectly well with 100 players consecutively, as long as lvl sync is enabled...

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