PVP!

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

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Dats nawt PeeVeePee.

Adding serious PVP to FFXI would be like removing PVP from WoW. FFXI is a PVE game and most people like it that way, only way to really make pvp serious is to reward it with gear and that would annoy people that don't like it.

PVP also adds so many balance problems that it's far far more effort than it's worth, especially for such a small number of players.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Adding serious PVP to FFXI would be like removing PVP from WoW. FFXI is a PVE game and most people like it that way, only way to really make pvp serious is to reward it with gear and that would annoy people that don't like it.

PVP also adds so many balance problems that it's far far more effort than it's worth, especially for such a small number of players.

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1. Its been explicitly stated in interviews with WoW developers that the game is actually a game with strong PvE focus and with popular PvP element, its not strictly a PvP game, never was. And if you honestly think the end game raids are easy and there is no hard content in WoW you are sadly mistaken.

2. PvP is as serious as people want to it be, any good PvP player honestly doesn't give two shits about gear other than a means to an end. The 'serious' part comes from improving their abilities and doing well, not what shinies they can collect.

In reality I don't agree with there being "PvP Gearsets" I think that would ruin an aspect I like where in FFXI you have all this gear and get to pick, I am perfectly content with there being 'gear' and everyone using gear for 'situations.'

3. You imply that the game is somehow balanced right now, PvE or otherwise.

The entire myth that PvP and PvE can never be balanced is a crock, I have no idea where this came from. It's as easy as adding a specific area or status effect to combatants. This is very elementary and a fine example of this is DFO or any game with an instanced area of battle.

Aion does this by just modifying what abilities do versus human targets, its simple, simple, simple, simple, simple, programming.

Making both a PvE and PvP effect for an ability is something that has been done since....the early mid 90's.

Camping HNMs against other big LSs; is this not PvP? Competing with one another to try and achieve a similar goal? And what happens when you lose? Do you want to cry about it? Well, this is completely off the whole concept of ballista, but if I wanted to bash someone's face in, it would be through that. Stop the foreplay in abyssea with all the competition and get straight to the point. If you think you're better than someone, no, if you think you're better than FFXI's own PvP, then you should prove it. If you have nothing good to say about it for no reason, then STFU and GTFO. No one cares what you think. This thread was intended for Ballista fans who want to bring it back to light. If you're against us, and won't show your face in an actual ballista competition, then just walk away. We can't change your mind, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but don't tell us about it.

Yes yes yes plz!!! Either the zone to itself for Pvp or make it possible to reserve an uncapped ballista style area with gil.
This is a win for everyone. Helps keep people occupied in the game. Hours of endless fun from one zone.
If people don't like to Pvp don't go there very simple. I honestly think this would draw back a lot of retired players, and help to retain the current population. Plz devs hook it up :)

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

If you're against us, and won't show your face in an actual ballista competition, then just walk away. We can't change your mind, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but don't tell us about it.

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Move to Phoenix I beg you.

MAKE IT THE BALLISTA CAPITAL.

Not this again. Short version;

FFXI is easily the best balanced game for PvP. No, your WAR won't kill a RDM. But once you start getting into bigger matches, using items you find with /quarry (Lethe comes to mind which dispels buffs someone might have on) it becomes a lot more fair. Keep in mind you don't have to KILL that annoying RDM on the other team, or the WHM, or the BLM, you just have to make them either run away due to being paralyzed, silenced, or having their buffs stripped, while your own team ganks someone who was caught by Gravity, Bind, Stun, etc.

In the end, there's no way to fix this. It's obvious the FFXI community is anti-pvp for whatever reason while the pro-pvp people are spread thin amongst the servers. Only solution I can see is to have a server designated for PvP. Either one we can access via the current Ballista NPC's or by server transfer. I prefer the first option.

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Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

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PvP does not mean going around the world and killing anyone you see. In FFXI it means "Doing Ballista or Brenner in a closed environment that does not affect anyone that isn't participating." Not even FFXI's few diehard PvPers want world wide PvP.

leave blu alone lol. I think a upgrade to pvp is needed. it would be fun to have pvpve kind of environment better than we have now.

PVP is sorely underrated in XI.

Fort vs Fort combat would be fun, inclusive and with the right rewards would help to stir some competition - something sorely lacking in '11 XI.

I think a PvP add-on that has as much content and changes in it similar to abyssea would be awesome. A handful of objective based modes and zones specifically designed for them would probably get a lot of people interested. The only thing I can think off that holds this back is FFXI's pacing in all of its systems. menus, npcs, everything is a bit too sluggish for PVP in my opinion. Some of this could be fixed to benefit all of FFXI though like having NPC menus display more than 3 options and staying above 3 levels deep.

I haven't done ballista or brenner in years not because I don't want to but because I can't. There simply isn't anybody I know of who wants to play it. This is probably since there haven't been any encouraging updates or additions to it in years.

i repeat, PvP needs updating. while the "unbalance" of the system made it difficult for say a normal/decent player/job to go against a decent BLU, RDM, to continue participating. the current trend of revisions to the game have been less nerfing and more enhancing.

- i mentioned atma like buffs to the PvP. the right choices would make it easier to survive or destroy for an average player. it would also make good players really stand out. as well as make some really amazing 1on1 fights.

-gear rewards that can be purchased or easily won that are useful outside of PvP is a great incentive to increase interest. who would have traded in all those coins if you didnt get a turban out of it? said gear could also have ballista only stats on it as well.

feel free to add any more suggestions. if you think about it, steriods, would make sports a whole lot more entertaining

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Originally Posted by Amanie

gear rewards that can be purchased or easily won that are useful outside of PvP is a great incentive to increase interest. who would have traded in all those coins if you didnt get a turban out of it? said gear could also have ballista only stats on it as well.

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I disagree with this idea and I'll tell you why: Adding gear that can be useful outside of Ballista might catch peoples' attention, but do you think it would bring the right crowd? You'll be getting people who have no interest in the actual competition and it would serve to be a series of dull matches. Not to mention how easily it can be exploited. No one would take it seriously.

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Originally Posted by katoplepa

PvP = WoW

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Almost what I was going to say.

This is FFXI, not WoW.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Almost what I was going to say.

This is FFXI, not WoW.

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You're right, this isn't WoW. This game is far more complex to the point where most of you can't comprehend it. And that especially goes for Ballista which everyone seems to have a knack for negativity towards. I've played PvP on other MMORPGs. Most of them are awful. FFXI is very unique and requires much more thought to your actions.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

FFXI is very unique and requires much more thought to your actions.

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What...? Ffxi's pvp is terrible. I'm sorry but capture the flag isn't unique, and it certainly doesn't make up for restricting gear swaps in a game that has absolutely no full time gear.

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Originally Posted by rog

What...? Ffxi's pvp is terrible. I'm sorry but capture the flag isn't unique, and it certainly doesn't make up for restricting gear swaps in a game that has absolutely no full time gear.

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The main reason gear swapping isn't allowed in Ballista, as ridiculous and easily fixable as it sounds, is because when you swap gear in the middle of a fight, your opponents lose target from you and it automatically fixes their target to themself, disabling them from using macros with <t> or anything else that involves directly attacking your target. It's inconvenient. To prevent people from exploiting this, they added a penalty to it. Besides, choosing a gear set to use specifically for it is a part of the challenge. It may not be something you would use full time, but that's what separates Ballista from the rest of the game. The mechanics are not the same, and as such it should not be treated the same.

FFXI's PvP is far better than any other MMO game I've played, and I'm not just saying that because I'm biased toward FFXI. I really did give other games a chance, and they just don't have the same pace, or require the same focus of mind. Most other games that people think are "made for PvP" are really just my equivalent to a BLU in PvP: Button mashing to try and kill faster doesn't make you good at it.

the gear is an incentive to participate. if they want it, they are going to have to try for it. if they like ballista or whatever new game mode they might make, then they will continue to participate in it. if they dont like, then they get their item and go about their business, but atleast they tried it.
Who cares if it draws the attention of the "bad crowd" at the very least you get the opportunity to beat the snot out of them!!!
some PvP is better than no PvP.
its the grand re-opening sale. you need the big sign and some jugglers on stilts, and a wacky inflatable arm-flailing tube man to bring the crowd in. the product and service keep them coming back

some suggestion in the PvP

1) make Atma system in Ballista with points , 3 Atma equip similar to the Abyssea Atma ( but don't connect them , like he has to get the Abyssea Atma to use it in Ballista , just PvP Atma use )

2) no Weakend after raise or I would say shorten the time from 5mints to 1mint.

3) add damaging temporary items not only buff one .

4) make it easy to assemble players to get to PvP , don't make the player just run or walk to it , use NPC teleport.

5) let the player choose the level not, don't make it timed <very important>
any suggestion will help . cheers~

Too many counterpoints about PvP = WoW. :P Yes pvp is a big part of wow but have you played wow do you know the history of the game. It's a completely different animal. Mainly WoW is very solo oriented and has always been "Red vs Blue" by which I mean you have a light side and a dark side. Both sides are constantly at war so PvP is a very big part of their game but PvP is not defined by WoW's definition of PvP.

FFXI has a very different aspect of PvP. In final fantasy it's not you're my enemy you're not the same alliegence as me let's kill one another. It's more of a "Let's see what we can do against one another's setup" it's competitive play it's not bloodlust. By which I mean, I can go with my linkshell and say let's duke it out and test out our jobs vs one another while still being friendly. Going for drinks afterwards and what not. Final Fantasy XI has always been very community oriented and I highly doubt improving PvP would make it magically turn into WoW where you need very little strategy and can lone wolf most things. Long story short if they did take the time to impliment this and you don't like PvP then don't do it, it's not like anyone would twist your arm. It's not like it would even affect you if you're not into PvP to begin with you could just look away :P

Personally I would like to see the battle arena opened and not just made it into PvP I would love to be pitted against PvE with a few friends fighting along side of me with random monsters as the rounds progressed. The option of bigger PvP battles is intriquing but you would need more incentive than what's already in place, it'll have to be something completely different than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Too many counterpoints about PvP = WoW. :P Yes pvp is a big part of wow but have you played wow do you know the history of the game. It's a completely different animal. Mainly WoW is very solo oriented and has always been "Red vs Blue" by which I mean you have a light side and a dark side. Both sides are constantly at war so PvP is a very big part of their game but PvP is not defined by WoW's definition of PvP.

FFXI has a very different aspect of PvP. In final fantasy it's not you're my enemy you're not the same alliegence as me let's kill one another. It's more of a "Let's see what we can do against one another's setup" it's competitive play it's not bloodlust. By which I mean, I can go with my linkshell and say let's duke it out and test out our jobs vs one another while still being friendly. Going for drinks afterwards and what not. Final Fantasy XI has always been very community oriented and I highly doubt improving PvP would make it magically turn into WoW where you need very little strategy and can lone wolf most things. Long story short if they did take the time to impliment this and you don't like PvP then don't do it, it's not like anyone would twist your arm. It's not like it would even affect you if you're not into PvP to begin with you could just look away :P

Personally I would like to see the battle arena opened and not just made it into PvP I would love to be pitted against PvE with a few friends fighting along side of me with random monsters as the rounds progressed. The option of bigger PvP battles is intriquing but you would need more incentive than what's already in place, it'll have to be something completely different than what we have now.

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this is a very good post. I don't know about other servers, but on Sylph PvP is pretty much dead. I don't know anybody who does it anymore. It does seem that the developers could do something to revamp it and make it attractive again. But, I don't really see myself doing it any time soon. The few times I have done it, I learned really quick how the strategy to PvP in FFXI is far different than any other aspect of the game - and for that, the challenge of learning it is a bit exciting. The last time I did it, I was proving to another player who isn't the brightest crayon in the box that my war was better than his drk (only because he had no clue how to play his job) and I proceeded to kick him all over the Ballista Brennan Beach.

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Originally Posted by hadeed

some suggestion in the PvP

1) make Atma system in Ballista with points , 3 Atma equip similar to the Abyssea Atma ( but don't connect them , like he has to get the Abyssea Atma to use it in Ballista , just PvP Atma use )

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I'm sorry, say that again please?

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Originally Posted by hadeed

2) no Weakend after raise or I would say shorten the time from 5mints to 1mint.

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Are we still talking about Ballista or the game as a whole? I agree weakness sucks, but in Ballista you don't Raise anyone. There is a timer you wait out after being K.O.'d that picks you back up to full health, 50% TP (if had you TP), and 50% of your MP. When you raised up you became invisible and people couldn't attack you so you could have a chance to get away and recoup.
You also have the option to "HP" which would send you to your team's side of the battle area, completely restored HP and MP. This is useful if you're completely out of MP, or if you die so many times that your K.O. timer is too long.

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Originally Posted by hadeed

3) add damaging temporary items not only buff one .

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It's not exactly a "damage-inflicting" item, but I think it's much better. In Ballista you get Lethe Water and Lethe Water +1, which, for those of you who don't know, are Dispel potions that you use on your opponents, potentially making them vulnerable to your attacks.

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Originally Posted by hadeed

4) make it easy to assemble players to get to PvP , don't make the player just run or walk to it , use NPC teleport.

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There are NPCs called "Persuivants" which are located in every major nation: Windurst Waters, Ru'Lude Garden, Norther San d'Oria, Aht Urgan Whitegate, and Port Bastok. These NPCs teleport you directly to public matches.

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Originally Posted by hadeed

5) let the player choose the level not, don't make it timed <very important>

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I'm not quite clear what you said here, but when you set up your own private match in Diorama Abdhaljs-Ghelsba or Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo, you have the option to choose what level cap you want it to be. While you only have a 2 hour time limit on your reservation, you can make individual matches last as long as you want. When the time is up, just go back in and do it again! It's fun :)

I second a raise given to ballista. I unfortunatly never got to fully experience the joys of ballista because it's popularity had already died down by the time I hit 75. I had gotten a few level 60 matches in with a BLM onces or twice, oh how much fun it was to stun someone that just /sprinted away and watch 5 people of your team just converge on them. Or invisible up and sleepga unsuspecting groups.

As far as balancing goes, I don't quite feel I have appropriate grounds for suggestion as I have not done any modern Ballista so I don't know what's good/bad/broken/etc.

However I agree that ballista/brenner needs a higher incentive to get others to play it. I also agree that giving out plain exp/gil/equipment/etc for matches would most likely result in abuse in the system and people that really shouldn't be playing would get involved.

My suggestion is simple:
*since it's been stated many times here that FFXI is team-based as is FFXI's PVP, I suggest that all matches give an amount of (imaginary, for sake of example) points on top of the default ballista points reward. The points rewarded to the player to be calculated by the efforts of both teams combined. A match where the score is 8-10 would reward players on BOTH sides with more points than a match of say 3-5. The caclulation doesn't just have to involve scores, it can incorperate total buffs casted, total damage done, etc; sort of how campaign is calculated.
*Now like I said players on BOTH teams get rewarded the same amount of base points. While the winning team gets say a 10-20% bonus. This would be a win-win for all involved I believe as it would reward both teams for playing a competitive game while not rewarding unsporting gameplay.

2ND part of suggestion:
*Allow the imaginary points(Pi) to be spent on a variety of other in-game systems. Such as exchanging for zeni, conquest points, allied notes, imperial standing, prehaps even small time extensions for abyssea if your current stocked time isn't currently at the 120m cap.
*The amount of Pi to be exchanged proportionatly can be different for each possible reward. Say 100 conquest points for 1000 Pi, 250 zeni for 1000 Pi, 100 imperial standing for 1000 Pi, 1 minute time extension for 100 Pi. Or Whatever would be the the proper rate compared to the natural aquisition of these rewards would be; these suggested are just examples. This would allow players to participate in ballista without feeling as if they are using their time in game, gaining nothing. Thus leading to player rational OF playing ballista instead of the rational of NOT playing.

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in Ballista you don't Raise anyone

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It's done rarely, but you can raise people. If you do, they do not lose their petras but do get weakened. It's usually not worth it, but in a tight match that's almost over, you can't afford to spend time digging for petras, and it might be worth raising (if you act fast enough).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's done rarely, but you can raise people. If you do, they do not lose their petras but do get weakened. It's usually not worth it, but in a tight match that's almost over, you can't afford to spend time digging for petras, and it might be worth raising (if you act fast enough).

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Very true. Not typical but if you can make it to score, it's worth the effort. It's not very easy when the opposing team is heavily guarding the rooks. Unfortunately Caitsith was never really known for the best strategists or organization when it comes to Ballista. Also, Ballista has been dead on Caitsith for a couple years. Since I'm being forced out of my server next major update anyway, I'm considering going to a server of Ballista paradise. We should all just organize a vast migration to one server to keep Ballista alive and strong.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

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Gank means steal,not kill. idk where ppl are getting word ideas from,lol.

Open worldwide PVP is far from the same as adding more options for consenting PVP matches.

A centralized area for the "new and improved" PvP matches is very important.

No lvl restrictions, entrance fee gil based, teams not subject to nationality.

Plz for the love of altana no atmas. Give these noobs a reality check.

This would achieve so much more in the way of retention, and grooming new players

than reskinned zones could ever hope to accomplish!

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Open worldwide PVP is far from the same as adding more options for consenting PVP matches.

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Someone has never played DotA, Heroes of Newerth or League of Legends.

PvP doesn't have to be like Wow. We already have a system, and it's a good system. All it needs are some good rewards, and you will see it's revival.

Things SquareEnix need to start working on now, are some level 90+ rewards for PVP, campaign, besieged, conquest, and of course, some extreme awards for capping out your defensive combat skills.

I'm hearing a lot of complaining about everything except abyssea right now, and then people complaining that there isn't anything but abyssea, and your all wrong. What your asking for is already out there, you just haven't found it, or you've found it, but it doesn't reap it's rewards as it once did.

So we all need to stop complaining about SE nuking our game, they're doing because your asking them too. People keep saying, this needs an update, or that needs an update because it's failing. So, they think you mean, it needs an overhaul to make it more interesting, when in fact, you mean it needs better rewards. It's a lack of expression that is killing the game, tell them we need rewards for our efforts, instead of telling them they need an Enix style overhaul for something that Squaresoft produced, and was gold when they did.

PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.

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Originally Posted by rog

Somehow i don't think enough people care about pvp for it to be worth fixing.

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Set! Point and case closed.

I definintly vote for PvP we have evrything else why not make a flag systme or a special area just for PvP. I also think that PvP would greatly help some of the arguments that rise against players. Instead of verbally taking out their agression they can just fight it out in the PvP area. Make it to where you can chose a group one on one or even linkshell PvP. Make the price reasonable since we know it wouldn't be free. And available for jobs 15+ low level jobs dont have anything fun to get into like the higher jobs lol.

This game is too group-oriented against the beastmen to really throw in an actual battlefield where adventurers of different nations fight against each other for control. The settings are still set after a war, and Ballista was introduced as a friendly PvP game against the nations. If you want PvP, go set up a linkshell with other players willing to PvP on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.

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That doesn't happen. All damage is reduced in PvP. And even still, that has a long cast time. It's pretty easy to run over to the BLM and beat him up while he's casting. For a BLM to do well, he has to suprise people by casting on people that are already busy fighting so they won't notice the "starts casting on you" message.

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Originally Posted by Musahashi

PvP doesn't have to be like Wow. We already have a system, and it's a good system. All it needs are some good rewards, and you will see it's revival.

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You could have stopped there, but you went and pointed out how vaguely expressive people are when it comes to showing what they want. I agree that there is nothing wrong with the way Ballista is, I don't even want more rewards. All I want is the satisfaction of putting noobs with big mouths in their rightful place. Abyssea really spoiled a lot of people. This thread is solely about Ballista. Not any other aspect of this game. Not a comparison between SquareEnix and SquareSoft, we all know Enix came in and screwed everything up. Can't change that.

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.

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The mechanics of Ballista are very different from the actual game. Damage from nukes and weapon skills, for the most part, have been reduced to attempt to maintain a balance and give some players a chance at survival. Your target has to be an unbuffed Taru SMN wearing gear that reduces HP to one-shot them with a nuke lol. Of course, times are different now, I haven't played BLM in an uncapped match since before all the rising level caps. For all you know, Blizzard V might prove to be quite strong, but I'd imagine players more accustomed to Ballista would be prepared for it.

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Originally Posted by JagerForrester

If you want PvP, go set up a linkshell with other players willing to PvP on a regular basis.

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The problem with this is lack of interest on most servers. The point of this thread is to A) catch peoples' interest by explaining to them what Ballista is, and not what it's speculated to be by people who have never been to a Ballista match where people took it seriously. B) if there aren't enough people on any particular server to do Ballista regularly, it may get people to migrate to a server where Ballista is more popular. I know I might. If the server merge is still really going to happen (and I hope they do change their mind) I'll have to see what Ragnarok has to offer in terms of their Ballista scene.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That doesn't happen. All damage is reduced in PvP. And even still, that has a long cast time. It's pretty easy to run over to the BLM and beat him up while he's casting. For a BLM to do well, he has to suprise people by casting on people that are already busy fighting so they won't notice the "starts casting on you" message.

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Chat filters can fix the problem pointed out here about "not noticing the 'starts casting' message.'"

As a BLM, whether you're alone or with your team, Sleepga is your best friend. Assuming your opponents didn't use a poison potion, they are pretty much stuck there punching themselves in the face wishing they could tear that BLM to pieces. If you catch an opponent alone, you (the BLM) have a good chance at nuking him down before his teammates can get to him, so long as you don't fool around with unnecessary spells, just Sleep > Gravity > Dispel to test if he has buffs > Nuke. If he wants to use a Catholicon to erase his weight effect, no problem! Just Sleep him again! Or make use of Bind or Stun or anything really... BLM has so many ways to stop someone from getting to them it's already "broken" as it is, but that's how it goes.

Lesson 1) Always bring Poison Potions. You won't always be lucky enough to dig them up!

Lesson 2) Unless you have a super magic defense or MDB set on, or have already built a strong resistance to debuffs, don't try to attack the BLM if you are alone! Certain jobs have a much greater chance at survival (or killing him), but I'm speaking particularly about jobs that have to be up close to attack, and have no way to stop them from moving (eg: WAR or SAM).

I think a lot of jobs have been able to put SCH sub to use for enfeebling enemies. In fact, a lot of people who subbed RDM got lucky many times with me in the past...

PvP being revived would be fun, but at the same time, like many have stated, what would we get in return for doing it? I've played WoW for years just like FF11 and it seems FF may never be able to keep up with the players needs/wants for PvP and PvE. WoW constantly nerfs their classes bc one becomes more OP than the other, and it would happen the same with FF11. Once a person figures out the perfect combo to wreck havic to everyone blizz would nerf it and make it suck even more PvE. Since ff centers sololy around PvE that would cause many problems. Spell casters would get own bc the lack of being able to run around and nuke, melee's would always run the battles and it would become too one sided. So the lack of PvP is a good thing, but it will always suck for those that are for reviving it.

The lack of PvP on FFXI is what made me give up my oath to never MMO again. That's been a couple of years now and I'm perfectly happy that I rarely hear the phrase PvP on here.

Beefing it up would result in EVERY minor argument turning into people threatening for a while, then fighting, wasting other people's time and just generally giving people reasons to be a pain.

It's about team work here, not Me vs. You !

An arena-type thing (which I was sure they were doing when ToaU came out) would be really cool. PVP is some of the most fun I've had on this game, but to make it fun you need a handful of like-minded individuals in Diorama or something who are willing to set up little 1v1, 2v2, etc. battles just for the sake of it.

They should introduce something where you can enter a small arena-type thing, adjust settings, players, etc. and duke it out in front of an audience. The little mini-games underneath the PVP we have now are just obstructing.