You guys are forgetting that not all Magian weapons are weather trials. TPbonus kanto can be completed without having to rely on any dynamically changing situations in the game, except the exact position of mobs as they move around, for example. The OA2 weapons aren't reliant on weather either, but it does require you to do Bastion, which can be a real bitch when alone on certain jobs. It is however frequent, and you get a progress indicator on when they are about to happen.
Trials of the Magians and casual players.
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05-21-2013, 11:13 PMMirage
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05-21-2013, 11:16 PMZagenI'm not saying buying a KI is the way to go but you're over estimating the difficulty level on Delve NMs if you think spots for clears aren't already being sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Actually they were brought up and pointed out that they weren't time dependent. That said with the exception of a few weapons those are weaker than most of the elemental paths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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05-21-2013, 11:44 PMOsmondNo I haven't seen it on my server, if I did I wouldn't make the comment. Idk why u think im over estimating when I haven't say such a thing, what im saying if u don't have specific gear or job on earlier posts I made they won't let u in cause they are expecting a WIN not a lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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05-22-2013, 02:46 AMZagenRight and I'm saying you don't need 18 players with specific gear or jobs to beat any of the outside delve NMs within the 20 minute window. That's why I said you're over estimating their difficulty. To use your server as the example for all servers is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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05-22-2013, 02:58 AMOsmondOk, please show me the proof that random ppl w/o the latest gear can win against Delve NMs outside the fracture within 20min w/o the main requested jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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05-22-2013, 03:03 AMZagenWhat constitutes "main requested jobs" to me that includes a healer thus making your request impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Edit: Assuming you aren't meaning something crazy like that.
Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper DDs + Healers
Gnat DDs + Enfeebler + Healers
Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata DDs + Nukers + Healers
Pieste DDs + Enfeeblers + Healers
Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw DDs + Healers
Orobon DDs + Stunners + Healers -
05-22-2013, 03:06 AMOsmondThen why say something that u can't prove on. If I said that a group that none have the requested items the majority wanted I would've have proof right there. Im not gonna say something w/ nothing to back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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05-22-2013, 03:12 AMZagenFrom my edit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper DDs + Healers
Gnat DDs + Enfeebler + Healers
Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata DDs + Nukers + Healers
Pieste DDs + Enfeeblers + Healers
Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw DDs + Healers
Orobon DDs + Stunners + Healers
That's all KIs from outside.
Sorry it wasn't that I couldn't provide the NMs it's that I wasn't sure you were being obtuse with what you defined as "main requested jobs".
Edit: Strats just in case you need that too: (info from BG)
Ceizak Battlegrounds:
Grasshopper - Smash away don't do WS
Gnat - Keep it enfeebled to prevent it's -DT from going up.
Morimar Basalt Fields:
Matamata - Deal physical or magical damage for 7 TP moves then use the opposite.
Pieste - Keep it blinded and it's evasion will be reduced and prevent usage of Grim Glower and Oppressive Glare.
Foret de Hennetiel:
Craklaw - DDs move around to find the side that it will take damage from
Orobon - DDs (ideally crit heavy DDs) keep attacking it's face until it takes enough critical damage to destroy the lamps, this reveals HP and stops Mayhem Lantern. Stunners are helpful for reducing overall damage taken from AoE moves and stopping Mayhem Lantern prior to lamps being destroyed. -
05-22-2013, 03:18 AMOsmondSry about that. I should've explained it in detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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05-22-2013, 03:23 AMZagenNP I try not to assume, I edited to add strategies that work on each of those NMs. Obviously or should be anyway the better geared the players the fewer are needed but yeah outside of a few types there isn't any one required job, as long as you can land enfeebles you're an enfeebler, as long as you can land stun you're a stunner, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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05-23-2013, 05:33 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
Ummm, if you're paying for a spot to get KI then they won't ask your gear. You're just there to leech, and you're the customer that's paying, so why's gear a requirement?
If you're joining a /shout pt and you can't get in because you have no R/E/M/D....come on, ppl need to stop pretending this game only has DD jobs and not be able to get in without a R/E/M/D DD is the end of the world. Go play SCH WHM COR GEO etc. -
05-23-2013, 06:00 AMOsmondIf they aren't worrying about what gear u have then that person must be paying a hefty amount of gil to make that happen. Again it's slim and they not gonna take that chance especially if they want to kill this NM in less than 20min or get over 5k plasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Again, they want quick kills, they don't want ppl who drags on. They are there to FARM. So u either have R/E/M/D or u don't get in. This is what the community wants right now. If that was the case there will be no complaints in this forum after the post update. -
05-23-2013, 06:03 AMXtrasweettea[Sarcasm] But, but, but, it's my $14.95 and I should be able to go as I my DRG. I don't want to level up BRD to get gear for my DRG! That's wrong. No one else does it! I demand everyone else to change their jobs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Also, no, I won't level BRD or WHM. Those jobs are below me and I can't see myself, a golden DD, touching those second class citizen jobs! [/Sarcasm]
I agree with you, Afania.
I have a relic and an empy. I don't sit and pout when I can't go DRK or PUP to delve. I go as BRD instead. I rather use BRD to get gear for BRD (and really RDM, but it is becoming unused again) and then to gear DRK and PUP. Of course, I've been "whoring" myself on BRD since the end of my days in old school Dyna. I can't blame anyone but myself for wanting to push forward in progression.
I also find it funny that people are detested by the idea of not moving from their DD perch and touch mage jobs. I'm guessing they view the jobs as being "under" them or that they don't like the idea of playing a job that actually has some responsibility other than reducing an enemy's health to 0. -
05-23-2013, 06:27 AMOsmondNo one doesn't have a problem playing mage jobs, they just have a problem w/ those who doesn't have R/E/M/D to get into invites for Delve. There might be those who doesn't want to take the easy way out and play a mage job to get what they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea
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05-23-2013, 06:41 AMdetlefIf the shouter has no issues filling his alliance with Delve DDs, then he clearly in the position to be picky about who he invites. What do you have to offer that can't be done better by dozens of other players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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05-23-2013, 06:42 AMDemon6324236I go as WAR with a FUkon(Fake Ukon) not a RMED, also I have seen people go on jobs like DRK and SAM without RMECDs because the WSs they use are merited and another weapon can still do great damage, if you are on a job like WAR or MNK where your WS is not as strong without a high powered weapon, like Upheaval and SSpiral without a Relic/Mythic then yes, you are excluded because you lack a basic WS everyone on those jobs should get. If you are unable to join on WAR or MNK because you have no RMECD then its because the job just is not strong without one of those in most cases, and as such you are suffering from the flaws of your job choice and its weapon choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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05-23-2013, 06:44 AMXtrasweetteaThere seems to be a problem of people wanting to play mage jobs. I see it daily when there are several groups shouting for BRDs as one of their only open spots left open. I've seen it back in the days of merit parties where you would have several groups of 4DDs shouting for a RDM and BRD. All of these DDs and not one of them wants to jump to a mage job. So you are telling me that they have no problem going as mage? The shouts I've seen are contrary to what you state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
You are correct, there are those who don't want to take the "easy way out" and play a mage job to get what they want. They are also the ones on here who have been complaining about not being able to participate in events STARTED by other people. The ones who want to participate and don't have a REMD could always START their own shout. The ones complaining have nothing to blame but themselves for not starting their own group or changing to a job that is in demand. -
05-23-2013, 06:59 AMLandsoul
You can't really expect having a level 85 or 90 empyrean weapon and it's still relevant. I know casual players have alot less time compared to someone that plays more often and that can complete it within 4 to 5 days. But this is exactly why you move onto Delve weapons for purchase. It seems illogical that a level 85 or 90 weapon is still good while all the gear in SoA is for level 99. Delve weapons are great right now and not very hard to obtain for casual players. If you want your weapon to stay relvevant, because you spent 1-3 months building your weapon, you want other gear to stay relevant too you spent so much time obtaining such as NNI, Salvagev2 or r/e gear like Armada Hauberk or Valkyrie's Breastplate?
SE decided to buff R/E/M 99, because taking these weapons to 99 takes a fair amount of time / dedication and gil. Harsh as it may sound getting a Empyrean to 85 or 90 does not take much dedication or enough effort for them to stay relevant. Want the best or second best weapon? Take a R/E/M to 99. If not stick to Delve weapons. That's the basic concept from Square-Enix. Why should Empyrean 85/90 be better than Delve weapons or craftable weapons? They should not.
I have only one relic at 99 myself, but I can understand it's time to move onto new weapons and gear for weapons that aren't 99. I have like 5 empyreans and am a little frowned that they won't serve a purpose really, but don't plan on upgrading any of them and feel it's time to move on. So they'll become irrevant and I think that's fine. I may upgrade another relic to 99 in the future.
If anything as conselation they should make Empyrean 85/90 give you the WS instead of having to go out your way and building another trial so you can take the WoE version to 99. I think it's rather silly having to do a trial all over again for the WS, but oh well it doesn't take too long to build a WoE weapon to 99, but it would be nice if Empyrean 85 / 90 would give you the WS instead. -
05-23-2013, 07:06 AMOsmondWait, u said that u won't upgrade a relic cause they are irrelevant due to the new content, but now u saying that u gonna upgrade them in the future. im a lil confused and saw a contradiction to that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landsoul
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05-23-2013, 07:08 AMLandsoulSeems you haven't been following the latest news, but relics at level 99 are getting buffed meaning they'll be relevant in the future. I was refering that I won't be upgrading any of my 5 empyreans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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05-23-2013, 07:16 AMOsmondI guess it is, but they wanted to try and get ppl back to WoE, to help the casual player/s. If they can't get R/E/M/D they can as least get WoE w/ that WS to stand out....kinda? I just don't know if it'll help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landsoul
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05-23-2013, 07:22 AMHawklaserNow I don't have a problem playing a mage job, since I do have SCH at 99, but I don't like playing SCH in events where end up having to play it as a gimped WHM. There is a matter of enjoyment involved, as there are some jobs players will derive absolutely no enjoyment, and for me one job I can not stand to play is BLM. Also BRD's gameplay does not lend itself to being enjoyed by a lot of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea
Something else to consider is how player reputation works, as back in the past if you got known as a good RDM or BRD it became very hard to do events on other jobs, because you were always wanted on that job. At one point I stopped leveling RDM because I did not want to end up only being able to play harder content as a RDM. And from what I have heard, BRD is still one of those jobs if you get known as good on its hard to do events as other jobs.
So it may not be avoiding the easy way, and it may not be because they don't want to play the support jobs. They may not enjoy those jobs or they don't want to get stuck playing only those jobs for events. -
05-23-2013, 07:50 AMXtrasweetteaI agree with what you say. I used to be noted for having a great RDM for almost every group event and merit party. I ended up getting so burnt on RDM, I leveled PUP to relax (mostly solo). Though, unfortunately, no one wanted PUP (let alone another DD). So I leveled BRD up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
I understand BRD isn't entertaining and that playing a mage job a different way isn't usually fun (like making RDM into a PNK) for most people. I've lived it. Though I blame no one else except myself for playing those jobs.
I understand your point of view. Though, I would rather be noted for being a good mage and progressing rather than fearing never being able to play my DD in PUGs. -
05-23-2013, 08:03 AMHawklaserNot really fearing being able to play my DD job in end game events currently, but its more looking down the road as content levels go up and older content gets abandoned, and for new players and future returning players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea
As if the only way for someone newish be able to really participate in the current community baseline endgame events is to level WHM, SCH, COR, BRD or GEO, there is a big problem. As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times. Now if there were AH variants for each weapon type, might not be as bad when content levels go up, but that currently is not the case. -
05-23-2013, 08:45 AMRAIST
There is also the issues with gearing a mage job if you go the route of leveling a mage job just to get in there. What if they don't have the job(s) leveled becuase they were never interested in playing them, and as such don't have any relevant gear for it? Mine aren't even up to snuff really, and just 3 mages consume an entire container for their gears (and this is not including some universal pieces that are kept elsewhere, that's just job/class specific only pieces). And no, I don't use the porters for them because I frequently hop on/off of them.
The point is, it's not always just a matter of switching to a mage class. Nor the process of book/abyssea burning them to 99. Sure...might seem easy enough when you say it...but you also have to consider that they may be very gimped, and some people may just not want to arse with everything else needed to make the job worth a flip. -
05-23-2013, 09:56 AMAlistaireWait a sec, you're saying it's bad to suggest you do something more for other people than yourself...to do something that's more work than fun, in order to get something fun, and you're saying *other* people are selfish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Umichi
Just want to be sure that's what you're saying. There might be a hint of irony in it if you are though. -
05-23-2013, 11:23 AMHawklaserThis highlights something I just said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
While most of us likely don't have a problem leveling different jobs to be more versatile, the problem comes from when only support jobs are viable to participate in the current baseline endgame content without already being geared to the teeth. Now when you consider what all is needed for the rest of the jobs to even get a chance to participate, the deck is stacked against anyone behind the gear curve, which leads to a lot of new players quitting because they may not have fun on those support jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
Or another way of putting this is the future of the game is becoming the game doesn't start until after you have gotten all your gear by playing a support. That is a future that will kill the game if it becomes the norm, as it makes it much less likely people who try the game will stick around. -
05-24-2013, 12:41 AMXtrasweetteaUnderstandable, and I see your point of view. Though if the person doesn't wish to take the mage route, then the person needs to bite the bullet and start their own shouts or join a LS that doesn't require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. If you are wondering if those shells really exist, yes they do. I am in a shell that does not require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. This past Tuesday we had pick-up members who didn't have RMED, but had ToM GKTs and one WAR has a 90 Coin GAX. The group went 1/1 on the three NMs we decided to take on (Supernal Chapuli, Tax'et, and Divagating Jagil).Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIST
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05-24-2013, 01:50 AMXtrasweetteaIt's called business!
The DD situation is "bad" now because shouters want to be able to get the most Plasm per trip as possible. It is no different than trying to get the most kills per set of playtime for Voidwatch or the most EXP per hour when Meriting on Colbri.
This isn't selfishness, it's business. The shouter knows that he or she isn't trying to get the most EXP/Plasm/Kill/Gil per hour for his or her own selfish needs (not always), he/she is trying to get the most for the hardest to fill jobs: support (and now PLDs). Support and mage jobs are not always the most entertaining jobs, they require the most attention to play, and require higher than average reaction to play. DDs do not necessarily require such high requirements: they don't need to look at other player's health bars, they don't need pay attention to TP moves that give status affects to other players, and they don't need to keep the group buffed almost 100% of the time. Most of the DD's job duty is on auto-attack. The differences alone make the DD jobs more appealing and mage jobs unappealing to most players. It's obvious when we see the large number of DDs compared to the number of support.
We have an oversupply of DD and an under-supply of support. So, in order for the shouter to get best support he or she can, he or she is going to need to appeal to them. Since there is no way to measure the skill of a player without knowing the player themselves, the easiest way to measure "skill" will be requiring the DDs to have RMED. This restricts the number of DDs, but potentially increases the number of currency/exp/kills per trip/pop/run. This appeals to the under-supplied support jobs.
This is called "supply-side economics". It is working here.
Now to stop the issue that is Hawklaser brought up about progressive credentialism (Quote: "As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times.") that is created because of supply-side economics of our job economy, players will need to do five things:
1. Play a support job
2. Start their own shout group and they can set their own criteria
3. Join a LS that doesn't require RMED for events.
4. Try to convince the support job players to reduce their currency/exp/kill per hour for the same amount of work as he or she would be doing if he or she is being "paid" more per trip/pop/run.
5. Ask SE to make AH equivalents (as Hawklaser had suggested)
#1 and #2 are doable. #3 might me harder. Good luck with #4. #5 could happen. -
05-24-2013, 03:29 AMMirage
I play support and I don't really care if all delve participants are RMED holders, especially considering the "E" there is a really really broad term. A lv85 empy is in no way a seal of quality, but still meets the "criteria",and people will look less down at that person than at someone with a weapon that is better than that empy, but still not a "RMED". I'd take a 99 TP bonus SAM, or a 99 OA2 DRK if they asked me to join sooner than some lv85/90 caladbolg or masamune wielder asked me.
But maybe I'm just insane (or a reasonable person, in FFXI, those are basically the same). -
05-24-2013, 04:12 AMZumiFFXI has always been like that. Handful of jobs being useful everything else sort of sucking. Want to get stuff done level jobs you don't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umichi
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05-24-2013, 02:55 PMHawklaserThe problem is it is getting worse. Everyone understands not every job is going to be great at every event, but when it gets to the point of being only way to gear any other job to participate is gear a support first, there is a very big problem. For me, this problem getting worse is a good indicator that the game will start dying off soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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05-24-2013, 03:10 PMDemon6324236It is? I have more often now than in the last 3 years been asked to bring my RDM to events, not me asking to come RDM, me being asked to! I have seen more PUPs running around, thanks to the Alternator that job has a pet worth putting on a DD setup now, meaning it is not just a MNK who can solo, but rather its a job with its own unique ability to DD. DRGs have been getting more attention because they have such high Accuracy Bonus traits they can keep up Accuracy on the new mobs without as much effort while also providing a potent Defense Down effect and some self healing as well as giving the party a higher Crit Rate, boosting damage further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
I think the problem is fading, I am seeing more jobs come back into use every day, and in this next update which is meant to change how our nuking works, well, we may start seeing BLM come back into the picture if things go well. -
05-24-2013, 04:34 PMHawklaser
As was referring to the having to level jobs you don't like getting worse, as the aspect of general acceptance of a well geared job is getting better, but the issue is getting shifted to actually getting the jobs geared. Though with most games with constant balancing, the flavor of the month jobs will always be shifting.
There really are a lot of factors at work here, and whats amplifying the whole thing is how much content Delve has caused to become mostly abandoned. And there really does need to be a few more alternatives to being able to get to a point to participate in the more active content than level X job so can gear the rest first. -
05-24-2013, 10:45 PMXtrasweetteaAgain, the people who are creating shouts must appeal not only to the best DD, but to the rarer support jobs. They have the right to limit who can join who can't based on whatever they want. If you don't want to level a support job to get gear:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
START your own shout and you can then invite whoever you want
WAIT for a shout that doesn't care about RMED*
JOIN a static or LS that doesn't care about RMED *
or you can:
CONVINCE support players to get "paid" less per run for the same amount of work as before
CONVINCE 1/2 of player base to play support jobs or PLDs in order to equal out the amount of support to DD ratio
It will only get worse for those who just WAIT. Progressive credentalism is going to happen as they release "higher level" content. Unfortunately, the progressive credentialism is going to mainly target DDs because their is a MUCH larger amount of DD players than support players. If it was the other way around you would see shouts for "Daurdabla BRDs only", "Yagrush WHMs only", etc.
*Example: our shell did two Morimar Basalt Fields Delve runs last night. We didn't require RMED. Instead we were able to filter people on their play skill based on our past experience with them and their attitude upon joining. Out of the three shouts that were going on at the same time, ours filled the fastest. It was appealing to DDs, definitely. It was also appealing to the support jobs, since we were providing 2x BRDs, 2x WHMs, 2x PLDs, and 1x COR from the start. We still had to shout to fill the rest of the support, but they filled out pretty fast. So, these shouts do exist, but we still had to provide the majority of the support in order to make it happen. -
05-24-2013, 10:52 PMDeifact
SE seem to add additional content that almost obliterates any need to do any alternative content ever. This happened with Abyssea which pretty much negated leveling content from 30-75.
Seens to be happening again with Delve. -
05-24-2013, 11:13 PMHawklaserI fully understand that there is a difference in demand for support jobs compared to DD jobs. And its not so much that its going to get worse for those who wait, but more of how are you going to keep new players engaged enough they stick around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea
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05-24-2013, 11:46 PMZagenThere was always a higher demand for support jobs since day 1. Until there is a way to replace the need for a support job this will always be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
Edit: A topic suggesting to fix potions, now this actually goes toward addressing the shortage of healers which can help those newer DD who refuse to upgrade their gear through SE's implied progression, refuse to lead, and refuse to level a support job. -
05-25-2013, 12:00 AMXtrasweetteaI do not have an answer for that. The only way I can think for a new player to stick around is to have the new player know somebody who has friends and that person and his/her friends are willing to help the new player catch up to where they are at in their progression. Other than that, I have no answer. This is a player-base problem and has been since day one (as Zagen stated).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
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05-25-2013, 01:04 AMHawklaserYeah it has been, and usually is in any MMO. And its not just Support, its also often Tanks too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
Whats making this universal problem more pronounced is the shift the game has gone through. Pre-Abyssea, while the leveling rate for some jobs was slower than molasses, your average player was more included as a lot more partying happened and while there was a rift between Dynamis shell players and everyone else, it was possible for a more average player to make the leap into participating in that content if they wanted to. Even up to SoA's Skirmish there was usually something anyone could participate in if they wanted, however soon as Delve was released vast majority of non-Delve group activities dried up for the time being, and not everyone can easily participate. And Delve is not even planned as the very top of endgame content either it seems.