Un-gimping magic procs in dynamis

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Originally Posted by Kristal

PUP. The same mechanism that is a bane in Abyssea is a boon in Dynamis.


It's mostly complaining about certain job/subjob combinations that already have a distinct advantage are not good at everything.

Noone is good on magic procs, not even RDM, although the math shows that you actually need slightly less then twice the proc attempts to get a proc compared to WS and JA.

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So now that pup is the best at WS procs, how does that fix anything?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So now that pup is the best at WS procs, how does that fix anything?

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now we know

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Originally Posted by Phogg

procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best)
/.../
would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time.

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is total bullshit and that WS mob can be a decent alternative over highcamped JA mobs.

If you talk about post subject (ie magic proc ) nothing, we have
JA best proc
WS inferior to JA but still able to get a nice amount of currencies
MA bad need to be fixed

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Originally Posted by hiko

now we know is total bullshit and that WS mob can be a decent alternative over highcamped JA mobs.

If you talk about post subject (ie magic proc ) nothing, we have
JA best proc
WS inferior to JA but still able to get a nice amount of currencies
MA bad need to be fixed

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Pretty much this. As a PUP I usually expect to make around ~130 coins out of a decent run (I'm looking to make more when I get some better gear). BST friends of mine make 150-250 coins. Mage friends... don't do dyna.

Or they do dyna on a nonmage job :p.

I'm sorry, but requiring one single job (pup) to do anything useful in WS time does not mean WS procs are good compared to JAs. Go try it on any other job besides PUP and let me know what happens.

The answer to systemic issues should never be, level this one job. Is that not why there are so many dynawagon BSTs out there everyone loves to complain about?

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses?

granted this would heavily favor one job, and therefore many might brush it off immediately, but lets follow through with the idea for a bit. humor me.

if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

so if you look at it as a job balance issue, it doesn't really help. it just adds one job to the "valid" list. but if you look at it from a proc balance perspective... i'd say it's perfectly fine? it opens up that unused third of dynamis, thus alleviating potential congestion.

also consider this; would an rdm procing magic via enspell actually do BETTER than a dnc or a bst procing JA as they do now? if anything i'd think blu/rdm would be the most potentially overpowered here, but that still pulls them out of subbing dnc and doing JA procs.

if it's a little bit better, hurray. it'll pull people out of the popular camps, so the popular camps end up also slightly buffed. (due to less competition) if it's a little bit worse, it's still an option to avoid that competition. i know my personal returns vary heavily depending on how many other people are in there, so i'd gladly take a 10%-15% cut if it got me around potential competition. (i'd likely end up ahead)


objectively speaking (or as objective as i can be, as i clearly have a dog in this fight) i feel like it would be good for the overall dynamis ecosystem.

The current idea is that raising the proc rate on mage from 8% to ~15% (effectively 2x the proc chances as current, though it's not quite the same thing) would be fairly sufficient to address the problem of balancing total proc rates vs JAs.

If, instead, enspells could proc, we'd have to look at the frequency at which enspells could be applied. Best (or worst, depending on perspective) case: Kraken Club with haste/Marches (~65% haste, depending on the brd), which is about 4 hits every 92 delay, or one hit every 23 delay. [Edit: scratch samba, as that would conflict with enspells; duh]

In other words, going from 1 attempt per 4 seconds to 2.5 attempts per 1 second, or 10 times as many chances. Frankly, that would be broken.

One could perhaps limit it to Enspell II's (so only one chance per round), though that obviously restricts it solely to main job rdm, and you'd still have a chance of up to about 1 swing per second using Joyeuse. Only a 4x increase in the number of chances to proc, but still likely considered unbalanced.

So to balance against those extremes while using enspells you'd have to lower the proc rate further, which makes magic procs for non-enspells even worse unless there's a way to separate out the 'type' of magic used to proc (which may certainly be the case, since enspells have 0% chance right now).

And even assuming you *do* separate out enspell proc rate chances, and make use of normal enspells, you still have about a 3x range in the rate of proc attempts that can be made (varying from basic haste to max, depending on buffs, as well as DA/TA/etc). JAs have fixed timers which restrict the rate; WSs are limited by TP building and how quickly you kill the mob; magic doesn't have either of those, which means you have to use a proc rate value that's suitable for a wide range of potential factors. If you choose a rate for the best case, then anyone without a Kraken Club is screwed over.

well, wouldn't some of those builds be extreme overkill? seeing as you can only proc a mob once anyway. once it's "good enough" you would be more concerned about killspeed, and a lot of multi-hit weapons are out of style for that.


though i take your larger point, tying proc rate directly to melee speed via enspell could end up WAY out of sync with normal magic. but since normal magic is considered "useless" now anyway, is it so bad if it gets left behind?

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses? if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

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I dont think they want PLD, RDM or BLU to be more useful. I think it's fantastic idea and quite amazing, it should be implemented pronto with 15% activation rate. If this happens, you can have Rdm/sch and your any melee buddy to have some fun in dynamis. Or your Sch/Rdm friend to have some fun as well. But noooooo, if it is useful for the players, and if it makes RDM useful again, then the idea should be killed. That's the general feedback I am getting from SE.

I'd say just buff magic proc rate and leave it at that. As an interesting side note, it might make it viable to use ninjutsu to proc mages here and there. Nin/dnc wouldn't be stuck at JA procs either.

I'm not sure the Kraken club argument works for two reasons:
1. Krakens clubs arn't exactly raining from the sky. While it's true dedicated (insert applicable job here) would get them, they still sell for 90M+ and I think it's a bit silly to balance an event around the assumption everyone has a weapon only a few people do.
2. You can already use Kraken club and/or shield mastery to get a ton of WS procs out fast anyway, and that's also pretty much tied to your melee speed, so how would it be any different on magic procs?

130 posts and noone seemed to pick up on the fact that the reason that magic and ws procs suck, is because they can be AOEd.

JA procs can't.

Magic and ws procs were nerfed because people were cleaving, and againg mobs to proc them fast and sweep an area. Now the only way to get a fair proc rate on them is to cleave/aga them.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken you can Choke Breath to AoE JA proc on BST and such. How badly nerfed is AoE proccing anyway? I don't think I've seen it happen a single time before.

In cities/outlands it's still entirely unnerfed. In CoP Dynamis you can only proc your target.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

In cities/outlands it's still entirely unnerfed. In CoP Dynamis you can only proc your target.

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You are a bit mistaken. They nerfed the accuracy terribly, but it is not gone. I have double proc'd w/ a single pet ready move perhaps 2x since the nerf.

Do pet TP moves proc JA or WS weaknesses? I know I Aeolian Edged quite a few monsters after the nerf and never saw a double proc.

I've double-proc'd using weaponskills on Pup (Spinning Attack), as well as proc'd mobs that weren't the main target. It's rare, but it happens.

Ready Abilities count as JA
Pup attachments count as WS
SMN BP's count as magic (even if they are physical, which is kinda silly imo)