Pet th - Just hear me out

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Originally Posted by Malthar

That was before /fume was discovered.

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Exactly. No one is bothering with "odd" jobs in VW anymore. BST needs to be needed in groups before they start taking away any of our soloing advantages.

I as a THF myself wouldnt mind that BSTs could have their TH3 back, but infortunatelly most (not all) BSTs have very bad attitude when farming dyna, claiming 3 mobs at once which I personally dont think fair to other people farming there as well and because of that bad attitude people hate BSTs so much... Maybe If it wasnt for the bad attitude you guys would still have your TH3.

What do you mean by "you guys"?!?!?!

By "you guys" I meant BSTs in general.

First of all, don't consider abyssea, fell cleaved, pearl bst's true beastmasters. They didn't level bst in the old days where you'd take two steps forward some days then three steps back another. True beasts are very emphatic of others and we are very polite. It's the bandwaggon bsts to whom you should be aiming your comments.

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Originally Posted by Lyberty

By "you guys" I meant BSTs in general.

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I like this blanket, it looks warm and snuggly.

Would also like to point out that everyone would hold 3 mobs at a time if they could, and while I feel that is a bit rude to other people personally, who are any of us to dictate how others play the job or interact with the game world? Also, why are career BST players getting all of the flak for the stupidity of some punk kids who only use it for Dyna farming?

If anyone has personally seen me on BST with more than one mob it's probably because Falcorr's poor pathing caused him to link them all also. No one seems to remember that pets talk really weird routes just like monsters do! And it's not as easily to pull only one of them with Falcorr running all the way to the left before coming back to me. If you see more than one on me, take it. As long as you kill quickly, it'll respawn soon enough. But I don't go in Dynamis on BST anymore, I duo it with my friend while I'm on BLU since I got my Almace.

I know what greedy BSTs are like, and all you do is TAKE what is yellow, ignore what they say. They don't dictate the game. They didn't create it and they pay just as much as I do. People need to stop being so afraid of what people will say to them or what "moral law" your breaking when you tell someone in a overcamped spot to stop taking six mobs.

It's not like pet special attacks are the only thing BST gets. You get axe and most of scythe as well.

Proc-wise, BST isn't meaningfully worse off than DRK or SAM.

The real reason nobody bothers bringing a BST to Voidwatch is because everybody knows a BST with absolute best-in-slot gear is still going to be behind a fair-to-decent WAR, SAM, or DRK because BST's gear scaling is horrible, so the BSTs don't suggest their BSTs over other jobs they have and the group-makers don't ask.

This gear-scaling problem facing BSTs was mentioned by exactly two posters in this thread: Arcon and myself.

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Would also like to point out that everyone would hold 3 mobs at a time if they could, and while I feel that is a bit rude to other people personally, who are any of us to dictate how others play the job or interact with the game world? Also, why are career BST players getting all of the flak for the stupidity of some punk kids who only use it for Dyna farming?

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Because, once again, this is absolutely 100% about Dynamis; any other context and BST can sub THF like any other job.

EDIT: BST would also be a good candidate to sub DNC in voidwatch and get most of the potential step procs, as well.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Because, once again, this is absolutely 100% about Dynamis; any other context and BST can sub THF like any other job.

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So in a nut shell: BST can't haz nice things because then it would be good at one thing.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So in a nut shell: BST can't haz nice things because then it would be good at one thing.

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No, I say that because the insistence that this totally isn't about Dynamis is disingenuous; this technically doesn't have anything to do with why pet TH is a bad idea. BST is ALREADY the best available for that one particular thing (all farming, not just Dynamis).

I have said several times in this thread that I think BST has problems that can and really, really should be fixed (gil-for-gear playstyle, horrible gear scaling*, current buff-based metagame), but farming ability simply isn't one of them.

In other news, my realtor just called me to tell me somebody accepted my offer on their house. F yeah, homeowning.




*this is the real reason you see so many perle BSTs in Dynamis; it's not that they aren't "real BSTs", it's that they understand that upgrading their gear wouldn't really make much of a difference.

Really it's because people leveled the job solely to farm Dynamis and are pimped out SAM, DRK, WAR etc. any other time of the day.

Also, I'm starting to get the sense that people don't actually understand how minimal the benefit of TH beyond 2 really is. You'll never see a difference between 2 and 3 without spreadsheeting thousands of kills.

So yeah, this really is about BSTs not feeling like they should have to sub THF like everybody else. What can you call that but entitlement?

It's not entitlement, it's paying 50~100k for TH3 or more just like people shout for it in Port Jeuno. I got a payout the other morning from someone shouting (on BST lol) for Thief with high TH for their Carabosse. This would be one thing if we had never gotten TH3 to begin with and there was no feeling of having candy snatched out of your hand after someone handed it to you. That's moreso what's going on, the only reason SE took it from us is because all of the other kids didn't like the fact that we got candy.

If I could spend 100k for a stack of twelve items that would each give me TH3 for an hour, you bet your sweet ass I would be using it pretty much constantly.

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This would be one thing if we had never gotten TH3 to begin with and there was no feeling of having candy snatched out of your hand after someone handed it to you. That's moreso what's going on, the only reason SE took it from us is because all of the other kids didn't like the fact that we got candy.

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In the interests of solidarity, can I expect a post from you demanding I get 70+ TP Penta Thrusts back?

Then ask SE for it and stop griping and grumbling about Beastmaster?

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Originally Posted by Komori

Then ask SE for it

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No, because that item would not be a good suggestion.

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and stop griping and grumbling about Beastmaster?

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I am not griping and grumbling about Beastmaster. I am mocking spoiled children.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

*this is the real reason you see so many perle BSTs in Dynamis; it's not that they aren't "real BSTs", it's that they understand that upgrading their gear wouldn't really make much of a difference.

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This made me lol in real life.

Did everyone forget that our moogles can "change main job" so we can has all the TH we want?
I guess so.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No, because that item would not be a good suggestion.



I am not griping and grumbling about Beastmaster. I am mocking spoiled children.

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Never post here but did you really just compare a nearly full tp regain to like 5% boost(if that) in common drops? That is almost equal to a brews TP regain without the attack boost.

Lets be a little more real here can we please? I am a bst who never does namis, I would like the TH for farming rare items with my LS who low mans shit more then anything else really.

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Originally Posted by Jeyman

Never post here but did you really just compare a nearly full tp regain to like 5% boost(if that) in common drops? That is almost equal to a brews TP regain without the attack boost.

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Over 33% reduction in time to acquire a single item. For NMs with a high respawn time/condition, you'll be a lot better off with TH than a brew, because kill time is rarely an issue, but NM availability is.

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Originally Posted by Jeyman

Lets be a little more real here can we please? I am a bst who never does namis, I would like the TH for farming rare items with my LS who low mans shit more then anything else really.

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And what does that have to do with BST? Why not give WHM TH3? If you low man shit for drops one of you may as well come THF.

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Originally Posted by Jeyman

Never post here but did you really just compare a nearly full tp regain to like 5% boost(if that) in common drops? That is almost equal to a brews TP regain without the attack boost.

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No; since Komori's argument is that BSTs ought to get TH3 for no other reason than that they used to have it, her logic ought to apply to me getting 70 TP Pentas back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

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Originally Posted by scaevola

If I could spend 100k for a stack of twelve items that would each give me TH3 for an hour, you bet your sweet ass I would be using it pretty much constantly.



In the interests of solidarity, can I expect a post from you demanding I get 70+ TP Penta Thrusts back?

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with current STP trait/gear you'd get 100TP pentas (gogo farm ws proc mob)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No; since Komori's argument is that BSTs ought to get TH3 for no other reason than that they used to have it, her logic ought to apply to me getting 70 TP Pentas back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

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Penta's TP return was a bug, all multi-hit WS used to give high TP return. BST pets with TH were put in on purpose and only later removed due to tears. Penta spam sucked anyway, it made DRG a gimmick job with no other options until the devs addressed their disadvantages, but that's a story for another day.

Our pets all have jobs, and job traits just like we do, that's how the game was designed. Who are you to pick and choose which traits are OK and not OK for our pets to have? Whether you agree with it or not, the TH nerf was wrong and undeserved, and I still can't fathom why anyone is still blindly defending it, or coming up with asinine arguments as to why it was needed. I'd like to hear a reasonable argument as to exactly why the BST nerf was justified, something that will actually prove that it was overpowered, that BST was unbalancing the entire game, etc. All I've heard so far is "BST is mean!" and something like "TH allows BST to farm slightly faster, and that is terrible! They should sub THF like I'm not doing because I have a second account!"

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Penta's TP return was a bug, all multi-hit WS used to give high TP return.

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It was not a bug, it was a feature. It was not "high TP", it was regular TP. Each hit of the WS gave normal TP return. It wasn't until they saw how broken it was (MNK with relic H2H spamming Asuran fists with zero delay) that they decided to nerf it to make all subsequent hits just add 1 TP instead.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Whether you agree with it or not, the TH nerf was wrong and undeserved, and I still can't fathom why anyone is still blindly defending it, or coming up with asinine arguments as to why it was needed.

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Asked and answered:

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Who are you to pick and choose which traits are OK and not OK for our pets to have?

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So us saying what's OK or not OK is wrong, but you saying it is fine?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I'd like to hear a reasonable argument as to exactly why the BST nerf was justified, something that will actually prove that it was overpowered, that BST was unbalancing the entire game, etc.

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Because TH is a massive upgrade of convenience, one that other jobs have to sacrifice a lot of damage potential, survivability or utility for to obtain. And considering that BST wasn't even on SE's ranked list of jobs that should be able to attain TH at all, it's still doing a lot better than it deserves by SE's standard. I'm pretty sure the only reason they didn't remove it entirely was to not upset BST further, otherwise they would have.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It was not a bug, it was a feature. It was not "high TP", it was regular TP. Each hit of the WS gave normal TP return. It wasn't until they saw how broken it was (MNK with relic H2H spamming Asuran fists with zero delay) that they decided to nerf it to make all subsequent hits just add 1 TP instead.

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No, it was a bug that needed to be fixed and was only glaringly obvious when Asuran Fists spam became popular.

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So us saying what's OK or not OK is wrong, but you saying it is fine?

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I never said that, which is why you are asking a question instead of making a statement.

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Because TH is a massive upgrade of convenience, one that other jobs have to sacrifice a lot of damage potential, survivability or utility for to obtain. And considering that BST wasn't even on SE's ranked list of jobs that should be able to attain TH at all, it's still doing a lot better than it deserves by SE's standard. I'm pretty sure the only reason they didn't remove it entirely was to not upset BST further, otherwise they would have.

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You're talking about sacrificing damage potential when farming, which is hilarious, and your entire argument boils down to "It's unfair!!!" which is equally hilarious. Our job has pets which also have jobs, and those jobs come with traits, Treasure Hunter happens to be one of those. It makes sense to me, and apparently it did to SE or they wouldn't have implemented them on purpose in the first place. The nerf itself is an example of public outcry and SE's hamfisted way of "fixing" the problem that was only a problem due to "me too!" dickbags that just want to exploit the flavor of the month to gain a slight edge, and guess what? Those people were never even affected by SE's solution in the first place, those of us who enjoy the job are the only ones still feeling it.

P.S.: Please outline SE standards so we can pinpoint exactly what is deserved. Thanks.

If it weren't for the high evasion that comes with them being a THF, I'd ask for them to be switched to something like WAR or an actual decent MNK pet or something for more attack power.

But we do still need an evasion tank pet, so meh. I guess we're looking at a nerf to all pets soon, removing any trait for them at all since pets with their job traits is overpowered. Ironically the community agrees that the one that affects nothing but drop rate and adds nothing else is the one that stings the most that we have.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Because TH is a massive upgrade of convenience, one that other jobs have to sacrifice a lot of damage potential, survivability or utility for to obtain. And considering that BST wasn't even on SE's ranked list of jobs that should be able to attain TH at all, it's still doing a lot better than it deserves by SE's standard. I'm pretty sure the only reason they didn't remove it entirely was to not upset BST further, otherwise they would have.

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BSTs give up damage / utility to equip the THF pet just like other jobs do to sub THF. BST getting some extra currency, or soloing something big, incredibly slowly does not make the game unbalanced for other jobs.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

BSTs give up damage / utility to equip the THF pet just like other jobs do to sub THF. BST getting some extra currency, or soloing something big, incredibly slowly does not make the game unbalanced for other jobs.

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No more than a Blm casting between fire and thunder..... It's a function of the main job, they lose nothing, ..... Are we being serious here?, because I can't tell.

I don't get your point, Nawesemo. A BST could kill signifigantly faster using a pet such as Gorefang etc. I've trio'd dynamis with my BST with a THF and DRK. And with a THF present I used Gorefang and the killspeed was ridiculous. We do less damage to gain TH from Falcorr or Yuly. It's the same issue of why would you go in Dynamis on THF, you have lower killspeed as a THF in Dynamis, but you have oodles of TH. So...it's the same situation.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

No, it was a bug that needed to be fixed and was only glaringly obvious when Asuran Fists spam became popular.

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You have your definitions wrong. A bug is erroneous behavior, not unexpected behavior. This was unexpected behavior. Same as BST TH, see below.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You're talking about sacrificing damage potential when farming, which is hilarious, and your entire argument boils down to "It's unfair!!!" which is equally hilarious.

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Why is that hilarious? That is entirely natural and the only reasonable thing to assume. Why should you be best at one situation and simultaneously the best at another?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Our job has pets which also have jobs, and those jobs come with traits, Treasure Hunter happens to be one of those. It makes sense to me, and apparently it did to SE or they wouldn't have implemented them on purpose in the first place.

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They didn't. Pets having jobs has nothing at all to do with it. Pets aren't players, same rules don't apply and never did. If they did pets could be geared up and buffed and BST would effectively be two people at once. It seems that's your rationale for other people having a mule.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

P.S.: Please outline SE standards so we can pinpoint exactly what is deserved. Thanks.

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SE said themselves what order they want jobs to have TH in. I didn't make it up. I don't have the post here right now, if you're interested you can look it up or just not believe me.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

BSTs give up damage / utility to equip the THF pet just like other jobs do to sub THF. BST getting some extra currency, or soloing something big, incredibly slowly does not make the game unbalanced for other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Komori

I don't get your point, Nawesemo. A BST could kill signifigantly faster using a pet such as Gorefang etc.

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So why don't you go /THF and use a better pet? What's this entire debate about then?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

So why don't you go /THF and use a better pet? What's this entire debate about then?

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You really don't know why having TH on a pet is better than subbing THF? Well then I guess you have no basis for argument in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Komori

I don't get your point, Nawesemo. A BST could kill signifigantly faster using a pet such as Gorefang etc. I've trio'd dynamis with my BST with a THF and DRK. And with a THF present I used Gorefang and the killspeed was ridiculous. We do less damage to gain TH from Falcorr or Yuly. It's the same issue of why would you go in Dynamis on THF, you have lower killspeed as a THF in Dynamis, but you have oodles of TH. So...it's the same situation.

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BSTs give up damage / utility to equip the THF pet just like other jobs do to sub THF. BST getting some extra currency, or soloing something big, incredibly slowly does not make the game unbalanced for other jobs.

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^^ in response to that.....
my point, the choice of bst pets is just like a blm's choice of fire or thunder, its a function of the main job not something they give up to gain the "thf", but everyone else (save blu who still gives up quite a bit to gain it) has to /thf. it's as goofy as a blm wanting thf traits on thunder 5. give it up. the argument is getting stupid.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

You really don't know why having TH on a pet is better than subbing THF? Well then I guess you have no basis for argument in the first place.

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I know why it's better for Dynamis, which I don't care about at all, because BST's role in Dynamis is not threatened by anything.

And aside from that, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Don't talk about "we still have to sacrifice something" because using a THF pet doesn't compare to what every other job is required to give up in forms of utility, survivability and damage.

Except unless it's one of those jobs that has sash, in which case if it works like EVERY other piece of TH gear, it only requires touching the mob with it on and then switching back to your normal TP gear.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You have your definitions wrong. A bug is erroneous behavior, not unexpected behavior. This was unexpected behavior. Same as BST TH, see below.

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Being unexpected does not exempt it from being erroneous.

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Why is that hilarious? That is entirely natural and the only reasonable thing to assume. Why should you be best at one situation and simultaneously the best at another?

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Because your maximum damage potential shouldn't matter when farming, which is exactly what the THF pets are for, and what we've been talking about. I'm not sure where you're getting "best at one situation and another", I'm talking about farming with BST pets.

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They didn't. Pets having jobs has nothing at all to do with it. Pets aren't players, same rules don't apply and never did. If they did pets could be geared up and buffed and BST would effectively be two people at once. It seems that's your rationale for other people having a mule.

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Please show where it has been stated that pet jobs are not allowed to function in the same way as players for the purposes of combat.

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SE said themselves what order they want jobs to have TH in. I didn't make it up. I don't have the post here right now, if you're interested you can look it up or just not believe me.

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That post was a reaction to the community flipping out over Pet TH. They never expressed an order before then.

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So why don't you go /THF and use a better pet? What's this entire debate about then?

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Because that would require us to sub THF and not SCH or DNC. You know, since most of the time we're required to do things on our own so we don't have the convenience of a helper mage or a main job that specializes in magic damage and sports potent self heals. Though the post you're quoting is referring to group play, and why anyone would sub THF for group play anymore is beyond my comprehension. Might as well add THF.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I know why it's better for Dynamis, which I don't care about at all, because BST's role in Dynamis is not threatened by anything.

And aside from that, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Don't talk about "we still have to sacrifice something" because using a THF pet doesn't compare to what every other job is required to give up in forms of utility, survivability and damage.

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And outside of dynamis, where would bst with a thf pet be breaking things? In abyssea, a plethora of other jobs have it better regardless of TH, due to weapon / magic procs being more powerful than TH. Where else is bst soloing and cleaning up on drops? I haven't seen any in Sea? Sky? Nyzul? Legion? Limbus? Assault? Einherjar? Let's face it. That TH nerf was a BSTDynamis nerf only, and it did nothing to improve the quality of the game for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Because that would require us to sub THF and not SCH or DNC. You know, since most of the time we're required to do things on our own so we don't have the convenience of a helper mage or a main job that specializes in magic damage and sports potent self heals. Though the post you're quoting is referring to group play, and why anyone would sub THF for group play anymore is beyond my comprehension. Might as well add THF.

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And we have a winner!!!! Here's a cookie.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

And aside from that, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Don't talk about "we still have to sacrifice something" because using a THF pet doesn't compare to what every other job is required to give up in forms of utility, survivability and damage.

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Yuly takes hits like a grandmother with advanced degenerative bone disease and she hits like one too. Falcorr has more going for him, but not by much. He's still quite squishy against anything that can hit him, and Fantod is only spectacular against too weak mobs. Gorefang brings lots of damage, can take some hits in return and is quite reliable in a duo or trio. There are clear advantages and disadvantages to each pet if you actually play the job instead of just hating everything about it.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

And we have a winner!!!! Here's a cookie.

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So what you're saying is I should sub a job that has no native heals, thereby forcing me to rely on Lulu's carrots or /heal to restore lost health, which in turn makes the subjob I chose ineffective at increasing my drops. You can at least use drains on BLM, if you ever take damage at all, so how much do I have to sacrifice before it's "fair"? If I have to force myself to be inefficient at surviving I might as well just say screw it and go WHM/THF to avoid the entire headache.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

So what you're saying is I should sub a job that has no native heals, thereby forcing me to rely on Lulu's carrots or /heal to restore lost health, which in turn makes the subjob I chose ineffective at increasing my drops. You can at least use drains on BLM, if you ever take damage at all, so how much do I have to sacrifice before it's "fair"? If I have to force myself to be inefficient at surviving I might as well just say screw it and go WHM/THF to avoid the entire headache.

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how fitting for your name: "having your cake and eating it too"
sounds like you need to make some friends or a mule.