Nyzul Isle Assault Bug

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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Complete BS. SE knows exactly how *hard* this is. They programmed in the randomness, they know that floor 100 isn't going to be reached but once out of thirty to forty runs (completely legitimately). They introduced all the "screw yous" that ruin your runs, things like WS restriction is just the blatant ones. You have the ridiculously large floor layouts that one 1 random lamp or enemy a good 30~60+ second run from the start, all sorts of NMs to screw with you and then the infamous lamps. Not only must a "vanilla" group make it to 100, they must do so with a low number of jumps and minimal number of "screw yous" from SE.

SE knows this, their not going to make it any easier. They don't want people 15/15, they want you 1/5 after four months. They want you still doing Nyzule Isle for gear in 2014. Just like Voidwatch, just like Legion.

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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They know exactly how many people are cheating. Don't let their feigned innocence fool you. They didn't budget time to apply any major fixes to Nyzul Isle after it was released, and now it needs to be fixed but they have no time to do it, so they are putting a band-aid on the bullet wound. It's apathy towards paying customers and to the benefit of people who cheat.We shouldn't even be concerned about whether people cheat. We should be concerned about why the content was designed in such a poor state that people who cheat get to shit all over our experience. People will always cheat no matter how much they threaten to ban, or screw with the game to stop them. The only options are too either make a game where people can cheat, but it doesn't affect other peoples quality of game, or (the SE way) make the game however the hell you want, and then bullshit the public as if you care. Something tells me that forum reps get paid far less than game designers, so guess which option they chose. They chose "Let's send some forum reps out to make PR Posts.".

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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Think by "fluffing the data" Kyomi means that they are making it where SE can't reliably establish how difficult it is for even well geared players without doing the following:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I've suggested it in other thread but i'll reiterate my suggestion :

@ SE devs :

1) record all F100 nyzul wins since release.
2) out of those wins, check how many of those runs had a lamp order floor.
3) examine the % of those runs where people went 1/1 on guessing lamps.

If you don't find 99%+ or more plese let me now.

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I know that NIU isn't impossible as I know a couple groups who complete it under legit means, but they also run into many of the issues that make it extremely difficult to complete. This is the core data that needs to be recorded along with all the rest without the issue of altered/fluff data making it seem perfectly viable on an acceptable scale to complete NIU. This is how using the dat swaps becomes harmful and creates "victims" because it relays the message that the difficulty is sufficiently acceptable and requires no further changes.

With dat swaps you have:
Possible pathos restrictions (one of largest time killers based on pathos and floor you get it on)
Kill all floors (2nd largest time killer depending on number of mobs/NM type)
Kill spec family. (tied 3rd with don't be discovered by gears)
Kill Spec enemy. (negligible, you kill one mob)
Kill boss. (not a major time killer as most can be disposed of in less than a 1-3 minutes of being engaged)
Always known lamp order floors (removes a percentage of the difficulty by a fair amount since this is one of two largest time killers in the entire event; one floor can literally destroy 5min or more)
Lamp register. (negligible, you all click one lamp)
Don't be discovered by gears. (3rd due to possible penalty of time loss if aggro or locking of WS/Spells)
Don't destroy gears. (negligible, not hard to not kill)
Random floor skip of 3~12 (Primary time killer if unlucky)

So, when you fluff data on one of the biggest time killers in the entire event you relay the message to developers that there is no further need to adjust the difficulty because X amount of players are already 5/15~15/15 in only the space of a month or two. Look how long it took for SE to admit there was a significant issue with distribution of VW drops because people with the items were getting them multiple times and could not give them to other players. Granted this is still an issue with a handful of the desired items, but no longer with some of the most desired items (HQ weapons, Most bodies), not to mention adjustments to AOE damage taken to players without primary hate, etc. VW is much easier and distribution of the items has increased due to data collection and feedback via the community, but it took time to do so.

Applying it to NIU becomes problematic when you can't prove via data that the successful progress made by the community is extremely low when cheaters fluff the data by showing that it isn't extremely low. Every run they are getting 1 promised drop of choice, and up to 3 additional random by completing floor 100 at greater than 50% of the runs cause they spend less than 1 minute on lamp floors. If they get multiple lamp floors this can make the run fairly smooth since they can always get the right order every time. What this says to developers is that they made it just right and no further tweaks are necessary because groups who do the event regularly are making acceptable progress when that isn't the case when played legitimately.

@Frank
When you look at the gear and the difficulty to achieve it while comparing it to the low drop rate of even VW gear/abj which is up on the same level of desirability it does make sense that it isn't easy to accomplish. However, allowing cheaters free reign to do as they please because it seemingly "hurts no one else" is no better a fix than stopping/reprimanding the cheaters after being caught. The cheaters will then do 1 of 2 things, stop doing the event because they got what they want, or turn around and turn it into a cash cow because other players can't cheat, or don't have the resource/time to do the event. Already see groups shout for it on my server and charge upwards of 10-15mil per piece of gear. So no, I don't see any viable reason to just "leave the cheaters to cheat" because it has too many noticeable affects on the community when one takes the time to look beyond themselves to see it.

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Originally Posted by Ragmar

Right people download the non SE approved version to not use these things. Fact is you simply want to think your cheating is ok but that others cheating with other programs isn't because you don't use those other programs. It's normal mind you but flawed none the less. Also you don't "need" to use windower at all as myself and many other PS2 players have done without it for years. I do play on PC as well.

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Sorry to disappoint you but I removed every single plugging from Windower the day I downloaded it because I found many parts of it annoying. Only thing I wanted, 1 macro to do my swaps for RDM because I refused to keep hitting 3 every single time I wanted to do something. If you think the main reason people use Windower is because they are all evil cheating assholes, look again. Alot of players who use it use it only because they want better macros yet time and time again SE says no, so we make due with what we can.

Also if i'm not mistaken, Windower itself is said to run at a better standard FPS than the SE Windower, Which can cause a bit of lag easier.

I just vaguely remember hearing about it.

Edit: P.S - Its really not worth wasting your breath arguing with people who demonize windower, People who think Windower is the source of the Devils magic are usually Starcade-level, It'll be like arguing with an impenetrable brick wall of hate.

That is primarily due to the official windower being coded to constantly prioritize the process to "low" even if you go into task manager and change it to normal or high. Unofficial windower on the other hand doesn't do this. It defaults as a normal priority and will not change that even if you go in and change it to low or high. So on official windower when the most menial task starts up with a higher process priority it'll divert resources to that process over windower causing client lag.

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

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It really wouldn't. By removing it you stand another chance of all enemies, leaders, family etc... It does however remove a floor that should NOT be in something restricted to 30 minutes with so many random rules in play.

Removing the lamp order floor evens it up among all players. The only other cheat (flee hacks) SE could easily detect if they wanted.

make it 40-45m per run? ive failed so many times and only needed literally between 30s and a few more minutes. one time i did get retardedly lucky floor jumps and was on F87 with 10m left.

Making it 35~45 minutes would probably ease all the problems. Basically there's no major difference between the two Nyzuls as far as format goes.

But NIU got the monsters boosted which take longer to kill but you still have the same time limit for it.

And where the youtube video of anne cheating? someone post link or tell what thread to look in

She deleted her youtube account because she got fed-up with the comments which were verging on harassment imo. It's understandable considering she quit a while back. She's always been fairly reserved/shy and has never has been one for confrontation.

All you people attacking windower are sooo off base. Be thankful Windower came out. It's very likely this game would be dead without it. Also, there's this saying that if you bite your tongue about an issue you condone it. This holds very true when it comes to SE's response to windower. They've never spoken negatively about it or to the creators to ask them to stop it. The only thing Windower has ever done is set an example to SE of what the player base wants out of the game. I love windower like 90% of the people thatt play. And of course I won't get banned for using software that SE Is mimicing and implementing in the near future. Get real...

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Originally Posted by Soidisant

She deleted her youtube account because she got fed-up with the comments which were verging on harassment imo. It's understandable considering she quit a while back. She's always been fairly reserved/shy and has never has been one for confrontation.

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The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.

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Haters Hate Harder

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.

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If they ever invent a way to punch people through the internet, you'll be my first target. Did you even read wtf she wrote?

I'd like to reiterate that we did get two pathos on floor 100. Yes, it surprised me too. I also didn't think you could get two pathos on a floor, but there it was; restricted weaponskills and restricted summoning magic. I know I'm not imagining this because I scrolled up and saw it because my weaponskills weren't working.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

If they ever invent a way to punch people through the internet, you'll be my first target. Did you even read wtf she wrote?

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She removed it because cheaters harassed her for being the reason the Japanese got their "fix"

It was mainly anti-DAT editting people who were doing it but there's no real way of knowing if that was their true stance or just the easiest way to vent.

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

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You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

I'd like to reiterate that we did get two pathos on floor 100. Yes, it surprised me too. I also didn't think you could get two pathos on a floor, but there it was; restricted weaponskills and restricted summoning magic. I know I'm not imagining this because I scrolled up and saw it because my weaponskills weren't working.

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Not to bash you, but did you care to take screenshot?

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Originally Posted by saevel

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

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Let me rephrase what I think is being said. If you look at data currently, you will see alot of people win this event. If you look at data without cheaters, very few people are actually completeing the event. In other words SE can not get accurate data on success rates for this event due to cheaters so even if the need to make it easier is great enough they would do it they can not see it because they are blinded by the cheaters making the win rate 50 times higher than it should be.

For example, if 1 in 100 runs are wins, and their goal is 1 in 10 runs, they are going to be bad, and SE would change it. But because of cheaters the win rate is at 1 in 20 so far as SE can see, and thats not to big of a jump in their eyes, so they don't mind, and leave it be. Now if they remove the cheaters or the ability to cheat then get accurate data based on the win rates without the tainted win/loss ratio they can assume if the event is working properly or not, and correct it accordingly.

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Originally Posted by saevel

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

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Really, isn't this what they kinda did with Walk of Echoes? Nobody doing the event, they kept making adjustments, and now more people do. If NIU was dead within the first week, I think more than just a stopper would have been implemented.

Or they may do nothing at all considering how good the gear is and their normal mentality towards player acquisition, getting floor 100 was probably meant to be a 1/100 occurrence (or at least having enough time to win at floor 100) i still subscribe to the evil genie theory when it comes to anything FFXI related and SE.

I only base that on how many other other things that need to be or very well ought to be adjusted and are still ignored in favor of balance or w/e made up limitations they choose for excuses, example macros: why? because thats why. my least favorite answer of any reasoning... because...? because F U thats why.

With 3.5 min left and ws's restricted, taking a screenshot wasn't the first thing on my mind. lol

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Originally Posted by Malthar

With 3.5 min left and ws's restricted, taking a screenshot wasn't the first thing on my mind. lol

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Are you sure one of them wasn't a pathos wearing off from the previous floor?

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Originally Posted by saevel

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

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You pretty much only gleened what applied to your reasoning from what I said. The fact of the matter doesn't change when you have cheaters supplying inaccurate data about success rate compared to projected success rates or intended success rates. They have made adjustments after the fact on several events and are still making adjustments (this update for example altered difficulty of legion by restricting roam area of mobs creating a safe zone and the ability to re-enter zone if ejected fo all members ko). Thus I do not buy your powdered reasoning as fact given the actual fact so many have only completed their gear through illegitimate means. I can attest to the fact that reaching floor 80 is far more likely and a more timely path to the gear, but reaching 100 is still possible giving you instantly a gear of choice and up to 3 random gears when won.

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Originally Posted by kyomi

You pretty much.......when won.

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I forsee the "you're profile says lvl 1, why should I believe you" card coming up, and also I'll tell you now that arguing with saveal is like telling a brick wall it is actually drywall. By this I mean it is rather pointless to prove your view as his is set in stone and immovable no matter the reasoning provided. Not saying I disagree with what you say, just letting you know that Saveal is more a waste of effort to argue with than it is worth.

There were no pathos from the previous floor. I know what I saw.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

There were no pathos from the previous floor. I know what I saw.

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We also know what we saw, which is nothing in this case.

If you got 2 Pathos and it was indeed a boss floor, not a floor with gears on, then I'd report it as a bug. It flies in the face of everything we know and have seen in Nyzul. I've certainly never seen or heard of it happening outside of aggroing/killing gears when you're not supposed to.

As others have stated, fix order lamps to either have labels on them already, reduce the amount of people required (example instead of 5 people max, make it 3), and or remove the lag after you complete the objective and the cooldown upon a failed attempt. We have to clear what is it? A minimum of 18-20 floors to get a floor 100 win, and with all the other random things in the event, it is still a low % of win WITHOUT cheats or order lamps as is. Order lamps kill your run if you don't use dat swap. I don't think it's fair that we have to lose an event based on a random lamp order that requires absolutely no skill. Once you put the new "bug" fix in, this event will die. And you won't fix it for another 3 months atleast and then other content will come out making this gear probably useless. You could also reduce the amount of floor 80 wins from say 25 to 15 or 10. That's still 10-15 days to obtain ONE piece of armor and 80 is still a decent objective for non cheaters.

And you know what? The fact that we got two pathos on F100 wasn't my point. My report got thrown completely off topic. The main thread that I wanted to illuminate was that we got to F100 and that was because we got no order lamps. So, it is possible to reach F100 without cheating, but you have to be extremely lucky with jumps and absolutely no order lamps.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Sorry to disappoint you but I removed every single plugging from Windower the day I downloaded it because I found many parts of it annoying. Only thing I wanted, 1 macro to do my swaps for RDM because I refused to keep hitting 3 every single time I wanted to do something. If you think the main reason people use Windower is because they are all evil cheating assholes, look again. Alot of players who use it use it only because they want better macros yet time and time again SE says no, so we make due with what we can.

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So you wanted something SE has repeatedly said NO to but because you wanted it you chose to use a third party application to have it and you don't define this as cheating because well... you wanted it. Making due would be making good 6 line macro's as SE intended the game to be played with, instead you opted for a THIRD PARTY PROGRAM yet you have an issue with people who dat swapped even though they did it for the same reasons you did. People complained the event was failed just as you complained macros were failed. SE said working as intended so you downloaded windower and they swapped dats. You can't excuse your cheating because you feel its justified and then chastize others because you feel it isn't. I'm not saying windower is evil either btw but its the same level cheat as dat swapping as neither effect the rest of the player base except to cause umadness everywhere.

You see your logic fails because I am using 1 macro to do what 3~6 macros would be needed to do, I am simply saving myself the finger stress by hitting only 1. In the game it is very possible for me to do those same actions, simply by hitting more buttons, taking more time, wasting more space on my macro list, and in general causing myself more pain on my hands.

Now, looking at people who .dat swap. When doing this you get numbers that allow you the info on which lamp is what in the order. No matter what you do in game this is not actually possible. You can never see the number for the lamps any way except by performing this act.

See, when you do macros, macros are macros, at the end of the day Windower or not they can perform the same actions, you simply need use more of them for the same thing if you are not using Windower. Dat swapping however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

You see your logic fails because I am using 1 macro to do what 3~6 macros would be needed to do, I am simply saving myself the finger stress by hitting only 1. In the game it is very possible for me to do those same actions, simply by hitting more buttons, taking more time, wasting more space on my macro list, and in general causing myself more pain on my hands.

Now, looking at people who .dat swap. When doing this you get numbers that allow you the info on which lamp is what in the order. No matter what you do in game this is not actually possible. You can never see the number for the lamps any way except by performing this act.

See, when you do macros, macros are macros, at the end of the day Windower or not they can perform the same actions, you simply need use more of them for the same thing if you are not using Windower. Dat swapping however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair.

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Again you're simply trying to justify the third party app you use. You can find out the order in game simply by trying combo's this just saves you time exactly like hitting one macro vs 3 to complete an action. At the end of the day dat swapped or not they perform the same actions, you simply need to hit more of them for the same thing if you are not using swapped dats. Swapping every piece of gear in an instant however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair. Can attempt to justify it all you want to feel better about yourself but its the same thing.

Again, 1 can be done in game, 1 can not be done in game. The 1 that can be done in game is only a time saver. The one that can not be done in game is cheating via giving you an unfair advantage by knowing something you would not know otherwise. I gain nothing from using 1 macro for 16 actions other than less pain for my hands and half a second of time. Where as with dats you gain knowledge of which lamps are what number, letting you save alot of time and potentially win an event you would have otherwise lost.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Again, 1 can be done in game, 1 can not be done in game. The 1 that can be done in game is only a time saver. The one that can not be done in game is cheating via giving you an unfair advantage by knowing something you would not know otherwise. I gain nothing from using 1 macro for 16 actions other than less pain for my hands and half a second of time. Where as with dats you gain knowledge of which lamps are what number, letting you save alot of time and potentially win an event you would have otherwise lost.

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All either do is save you time, both can be done in game and their respective programs simply save you time. Im not a math major here but lets see dat swaps save you like 2 min on average. How much time do you think during the same 30 min event windower macros are saving you? I'd bet money you're saving yourself over 2 minutes of wait times and button mashing macro after macro. I played on PS2 for 7 years I know how bad the in game macro system is. You simply keep trying to justify your choice of third party tools. Fact is fact both violate the ToS and are cheating because of it. I hardly expect you to understand because if you already cant you simply arent capable. 1+1=2 no matter how many times you wanna say 1+1=3.

Yes I am incapable of understanding how the 2 are the same, they are the same in black and white, but not when you look at them in detail.