Battle Balance Adjustment: TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill

... Which is mostly nullified by the amount of damage brd adds to the other DDs post nerf. Cor doesn't come close especially with their lower WS frequency post nerf.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

tl;dr

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This is why it's be firm belief that rather than trying to debate and discuss with the devs, we should debate and discuss amongst ourselves, then devise a system of numbers, pictures, and pictograms with which we can clearly and easily communicate our opinions in a way that contains no subtle hints or nuances, is straightforward, direct, and incredibly blunt, and cannot ever be lost in translation.

The real issue that I have isn't cor vs brd, or cor's overall usefulness, or anything along that line. The point I want to make to the devs is that they are destroying a perfectly reasonable game mechanic, purely because it is broken in ONE situation.

Please, please, please... "Fix" the situation that causes it to be broken, not the entire mechanic. It is not very powerful as is outside of VW, it's actually about 50% useless(needing lucky/11 rolls to have an effect). After the "Fix" it will be 95% useless, and now 50% useless in VW.

I fully agree with the reasoning as to why it needs be adjusted inside of Voidwatch. 70-80tp after every WS is a bit over the top. but I don't see how 40tp after a WS is over the top everywhere else, seeing as it requires a cor, and requires some luck to actually achieve it.

Aside from this, it is actually EASIER for you to either change the Atmacite in question, or simply cap tp gained after WS to 50. With your proposed change, you have to adjust the mechanic as a whole(more likely to have unintended consequences), and then also change SAM's JA.

Has anyone tested this out as to whether the nerf was implemented. I went briefly out the other day on COR and seemed to be getting Miser's and WS TP stacking still. My eyeball test may not have been totally accurate since I was running tacticians and taking damage.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Has anyone tested this out as to whether the nerf was implemented. I went briefly out the other day on COR and seemed to be getting Miser's and WS TP stacking still. My eyeball test may not have been totally accurate since I was running tacticians and taking damage.

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This was not implemented in the Monday update.

OK so my eyeball test was accurate after all. Guess we get a reprieve for a few weeks at least. Hope they are actually reconsidering the notion.

It actually will make the potential of the amount of TP "return" you get much much lower. You will no longer get above 25~30 tp from your WSs anymore because of this "update" where as before, especially on sam, i frequently got 60~80 tp return(yes, i could WS in the next 1-2 hits lol...). So this is really a nerf.

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

How about not making miser's roll completely useless? Was that ever given thought? Especially after the bullcrap line involving Save TP and Conserve TP effects on one character, when Save TP and Conserve TP don't stack?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

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run away... now

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

How about not making miser's roll completely useless? Was that ever given thought? Especially after the bullcrap line involving Save TP and Conserve TP effects on one character, when Save TP and Conserve TP don't stack?

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This sums up my thoughts and feelings as well, tone and all.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

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I'll try and hold them back while you make a break for it! Fly you fool!

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I'll try and hold them back while you make a break for it! Fly you fool!

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You are no match for me!

http://troll.me/images/butthurt-dwel...ealth-fart.jpg

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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New value|__________________|_________________|Old value

what are we missing? hint, it begins with a "B"

I ain't even mad.

It's more a numb feeling at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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Very few people are making the claim that weaponskills returns of 60 TP weren't ridiculous, even if they were fun. The chief, if not only, complaint is that the new way Store TP is calculated is absolutely awful for Miser's Roll.

There are lots of other ways Save TP's effects could have been made more reasonable without Miser's Roll being made Voidwatch-only in the process.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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It's kind of galling at this point where some jobs are getting nerfed for barance-sake while SAM just keeps getting boosted, no matter how small it may be.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?

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Originally Posted by Starry

Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?

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For what it is worth, Kristal has posted a lot of 'nonsense' that I can remember.

You?

Not so much.
Which takes us to the point of your point: What is it?

Did you have something to say about them adjustments on TP-Gained through the use of Weapon Skills¿?

Where is it!


As for me, I'm not sure what to think about it.
I often do play as a Samurai, but I do not do Voidwatch, at all, so that might have quite a bit of an effect to the conversation on-going so I will just not say a thing... of any.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

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Setting aside the point that I love, and have always loved your siggy for now...

Save TP is overpowered in one and only one circumstance: Voidwatch. The reason for this is because with a corsair and high TP-return WSs and the correct atmacite, you would be capable of more than 60 TP returned per WS. THIS IS NOT DISPUTED AS OVERPOWERED. The reason people object to the changes is that Miser's Roll will not be used anywhere but voidwatch, and I argue that after the changes it shouldn't even be used in voidwatch.

I'm a bard by trade. It's my most serious job in the game. Even I think that haste is more overpowered than save TP, and it's the one thing that makes my primary job so enticing in parties. The solution for save TP should be the same as it is for haste. A hard cap. Or hell, a hard cap on maximum TP return.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

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GODDAMN IT, NO

SAMURAI NEEDS NOTHING MORE. THIS IS NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Camate is now on top of the hate list.
And I wanna see you blood tank all this, not evade like you've been doing.

THIS IS NOT BALANCE!

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Originally Posted by Seha

Camate is now on top of the hate list.
And I wanna see you blood tank all this, not evade like you've been doing.

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To be fair, he's only the messenger.

I can't believe they saw fit to fix a SAM ability while not addressing the overwhelming feedback from COR's and non-COR's alike.

How can Carnate even feel good about himself saying this change for the SAM JA was due to "feedback" No one has even commented in the billion posts about the SAM ability. What feedback?

/rant

I hate SE.

So, sam gets a boost to Hagakure and everyone QQs? That isn't the point of this. Really SAM is, and has always been, about storing tp and using it effectively, the only job that comes close to it is dnc. For all you lolsams that only play it because you thought ukko and vere were getting nerfed. Go cry some where else, there's no point. If they nerf save tp and kept hagakure at the same level of save tp (I usually get 18-20 tp back on wses) then there'd be no point to the job ability besides tp bonus. I'm surprised no one has cried about us having a hagun ability, but whatevs.

As for the true nature of this, I don't agree with nerfs, but saying that SAM is being favored, in this case, is inaccurate. I don't like that they pulled power away from Corsair though. I feel like this was one of the main reasons why COR shined so much in the past few months. With their ability to fire off wildfires almost back to back with saving tp as well as buffing a party and making them go ws crazy haha. But honestly, I've never seen misers used outside of VW to begin with. Most of the time I see chaos/tact rolls in abyssea....or anywhere else that isn't VW. Still though, taking away utility from a job is pretty weak, no good se...no good.

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Originally Posted by Jomen

So, sam gets a boost to Hagakure and everyone QQs?

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You're missing the point.

The Save TP change kicked Miser's Roll to the rubbish heap and nothing has been done to make Miser's Roll remotely viable. The SAM JA was hacked down to "moderately less useful than before but still useful" and SE comes along and gives it a boost, while conveniently ignoring Miser's Roll which is in dire need of some love now. Pair this with the long history of SE treating SAM as something of a favored job and there should be zero surprise that there is resentment over it and outright hostility.

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Originally Posted by Jomen

As for the true nature of this, I don't agree with nerfs, but saying that SAM is being favored, in this case, is inaccurate.

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I want to hear you reasoning on this. The way I see it, SE trashed miser's roll, which pretty much made things worse for every other dd out there. Now, they're saying that hagakure is being boosted. It's a small boost, but it's still a boost. When I see the majority off dds being worse off and see one job given a boost for compensation, I'd say that there's some favoritism going on in regards to SAM.

But go ahead, show me how my thinking is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Camate is now on top of the hate list.

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I don't hate Camate, I hate the Development team at SE headquarters for thinking that they haven't boosted SAM enough, when it clearly is already overpowered

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

I want to hear you reasoning on this. The way I see it, SE trashed miser's roll, which pretty much made things worse for every other dd out there. Now, they're saying that hagakure is being boosted. It's a small boost, but it's still a boost. When I see the majority off dds being worse off and see one job given a boost for compensation, I'd say that there's some favoritism going on in regards to SAM.

But go ahead, show me how my thinking is wrong.

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That's because the way Hagakure is now, once they make this change it won't do anything. The nerf to Save TP is also a Nerf to SAM as they can no longer use Hagakure to jump to the next WS. SE is upping the value so that it's not completely worthless as an ability.

So yes, SE is nerfing SAM, just not as hard as their nerfing Misers roll.

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Originally Posted by saevel

That's because the way Hagakure is now, once they make this change it won't do anything. The nerf to Save TP is also a Nerf to SAM as they can no longer use Hagakure to jump to the next WS. SE is upping the value so that it's not completely worthless as an ability.

So yes, SE is nerfing SAM, just not as hard as their nerfing Misers roll.

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Which is basically what I said. All dds get nerfed on save tp but sam got a boost to hagakure, even if it is small. It's the equivalent of a pat on the head and saying "Don't worry, we still love you!", while basically telling every other dd to suck it. It was totally unnecessary when SAM is a very strong job as is.

Inb4 some sam starts whining about how they were hosed in abyssea.

Going from +20 Save TP to +40 Save TP will keep Hagakure pretty the same for Samurai after the change, assuming a five-hit build. It makes sense that it should remain roughly the same; Hagakure is a 3 minute recast ability that lasts one weaponskill. The effect should be nice.

The Development Bros okaying the more-or-less current effects of Hagakure taking place ever begs the question, though. What's so overwhelming about Miser's Roll when not combined with other (typically Voidwatch-specific) sources of extra TP that it can not be adjusted as well? Do the Development Bros just dislike miserly people?

Maybe the adjustment shouldn't be as drastic as that of Hagakure, since Miser's Roll is active forever and ever. I still don't understand the reasoning behind updating one ability to retain it's current use and leaving the other as highly, highly situational.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

Which is basically what I said. All dds get nerfed on save tp but sam got a boost to hagakure, even if it is small. It's the equivalent of a pat on the head and saying "Don't worry, we still love you!", while basically telling every other dd to suck it. It was totally unnecessary when SAM is a very strong job as is.

Inb4 some sam starts whining about how they were hosed in abyssea.

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Wow, I didn't know other DD's had an ability that gave them Save TP on the next WS.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Wow, I didn't know other DD's had an ability that gave them Save TP on the next WS.

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Yes its that little dice icon on the top of the screen. Requires a COR to be in your party to activate.

I also didn't realize sam was immune to that little dice symbol... They still lose the same amount of save tp as every other job. Regardless of the power of sams, I'm sure you would not be happy if the primary purpose of one of your JA's was rendered null and void due to a mechanic's change(that still shouldn't happen).

Regardless, the point still remains that save tp should not be handled in this way. Alter the atmacite, or place a cap. that is what everybody is telling you, please do it. Yes, it is overpowered in Voidwatch, so fix it there only.

SAM is SE's spoiled little brat job. Certainly not shocked SE is favoring them once again.

I agree with almost everyone that this change of the mechanics of save tp is the dumbest way to fix the situation we have in VW when everyone just chains WSs back to back making a brew look like it wouldn't be anything special. Not only does it seem to require more effort than simply changing the Atmacite but its changes range much further than said situation which harbors the issues. I would also plead for your cause and say keep the roll like it is and don'tmake it useless.

However, I do not see the justice in everyone bashing on the change of Hagakure. The said "boost" brings it to exactly the same point where it was before anyway, so there is no enhancement whatsoever. I have a TP return after a WS (used with Hagakure in effect) of 38-39TP and now, after the change, I will recieve 40TP. Everyone claiming this is a boost -to make the math complete, we are talking about 1-2TP every 3minutes- is not really sane. Let us now look at the roll under normal circumstances:

Let us assume our cor hit the jackpot, an 11 so the save tp amount is 25:
a) System as of now
SAM gets back 25 + 18 or 19 = 43 or 44 (+25)
THF gets back lets go as high as 25 + 12 = 37 = +25

Result both get the same benefit from the roll

b) Future system
SAM gets back 25TP = +7 or +6 from WS without save tp
THF gets back 25TP = +13 from WS without save tp

Result: Thf gets double the bonus than SAM gets from the new system

Now I wanna ask you: do you still consider SAM the big winner in this situation (which is the most beneficial for SAM, lower rolls will yield NO bonus to SAM while other jobs still would recieve some)? It works exactly like that for all other set ups as well, the bonus for lower TP return WSs and jobs is bigger than the bonus for the high tp return WSs. So compared to now, where a SAM gets the same boost as all other jobs, in the future it will get less than most others out of the save tp effect, no matter the source, no matter the amount you actually have.

Conclusion: while it is dumb to change a whole system because of one situation and while it is even more dumb to rob one of the best abilities from a job, stop complaining about SAM favoritsm here. Search that somewhere else where it might even be true, here it simply isn't.

PS: I assumed those 12TP since I do not exactly know what the average TP return is on a THF with a dagger that sports a delay of 190

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Yes its that little dice icon on the top of the screen. Requires a COR to be in your party to activate.

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So ... DDs ability's are a COR ...
Yeah you know, SAM's get those too, that JA doesn't interfere with them.

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

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Originally Posted by saevel

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

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How nice of them, too bad the same consideration wasn't given to COR's JA....unless you think that the change to miser's roll is somehow beneficial now?

Hagakure wasn't even necessary when it was introduced. SAM had a pretty deep bag of tricks already.