To Developers: Accession

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

This post is not only inaccurate ( haste is not a balance issue, other spells etc.), but also has a bad tone to it. It's fairly obvious that people are desperate for something to make red mage a good job again.

Instead of popping in and going " No! You will get nothing, and like it.", why not try saying something like "We are not planning on adding this requested feature because we have something in the way of <insert hint about something you have planned for red mage here> planned, and we think you will find it is even better.".

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Well, that assumes that there are plans for something better.

Inb4 gravity II

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Well, that assumes that there are plans for something better.

Inb4 gravity II

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Bahhhhhhh! <shakes fist at the sky>

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Inb4 gravity II

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To be fair, they did make it sound like Gravity II had potential, with sweet nothings about only the movement speed decrease being resisted by NMs and making it sound like free sushi only a RDM could dispense.

Say what you will about evasion down, but if it worked like Dia for evasion, I think the spell could be amazing... if only.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Instead of popping in and going " No! You will get nothing, and like it.", why not try saying something like "We are not planning on adding this requested feature because we have something in the way of <insert hint about something you have planned for red mage here> planned, and we think you will find it is even better.".

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They would have to actually have something planned for Red Mage to do that.

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Originally Posted by Froggis

They will not let RDM die out. All jobs will probably be getting some kind of insane spell or ablity we've always hoped for in group 3 merit form. Perhaps Haste II, though that wouldn't be my preference lol. People shouldn't give up hope on RDM just yet, it will come back, and it will be quite amazing when it does, though it will be about 3 to 6 months from now I imagine.

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DRK's been waiting the longest, and it's still waiting. I wouldn't count on it.

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

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Originally Posted by Vaness

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

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It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

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That sounds like code for "I don't want to be so busy. I want to auto-attack like the melee do. Who knows, maybe I'll cast a buff or two if I'm bored."

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

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Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 2 min Recast.

Situation no.1 (You get accession with the possibility to use it with haste, temper, Enspell and Boost-spell)
Actions
No.1 Accession + Haste
No.2 Accession + Temper
No.3 Do whatever for the next 45s because your Accession timer is at 1 min 45s
no.4 Accession + Enspell
no.5 Wait for the 1 min 45s on the second strat.
No.6 Accession Gain-spell

Conclusion:Considering a full AF3 +2 set gives other ppl a 5 min buff (aprox) you would have to keep recasting the buffs.That is an enhancing bot.

Situation no.2 (Haste and refresh 2 as single targets no accession but no gain/enspell/temper to cast)
Action
no1.Cast Haste on Melee
No.2 Cast Refresh II on the WHM while haste timer is down (about 10s)
no.3 Cast Haste on another melee
No.4 Recast haste every 10s until all the melee in your PT got.

Conclusion: It takes you less then 1min 30s to have every1 hasted/refreshed wich leaves you with 3 mins 30s to dance the Lambada if you feel like it.

Ofcourse I might give too much credit to most RDM thinking that they would actually WANT to cast enhancing.....at all.But as soon as you would get to a "certain level" of event, you can be sure that melees and tank would ask and annoy you about having all those shinies on them.So can you really be mad at them for not giving you accession?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I think Red Mages as a community is often divided by the various ideas we would like to see implemented for the jobs, but we can all unite under this statement.

If your idea is to make enfeeblement and single/self target buffers. We want examples, even the roughest of conseptual ideas as how the developers are going to accomplish this. Even asking us pointed questions would be preferable to the near-silence we have gotten in comparison to other jobs.

We realize this job is a hard one to balance. But this difficulty should be encouraging the development team to be more vocal and open with us, not the opposite. Engage us, talk to us. Give us a direction to work with instead of letting the community tear itself apart for a lack of anything solid to work with.

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In all honestly they have absolutely no clue what their going to do with us as a job. They threw out the "enfeebling specialist" as an idea, but if "Gravity II" is any indication, then we're not getting a damn thing. If SE was smart they'd just bite the damn bullet and redesign the entire enfeeble line instead of trying to band aid it all. Change gravity from -movement to just plain -evasion similar to Slow II / Blind II. Change the bind spell from 0% movement speed to a stun effect (old White Mage Hold spell). Remove ALL NM's super immunity's period, never implement them again, ever. Implement a line of -stat enfeebling spells that actually scale.

For each of the aspects of RDM (WHM/BLM/WAR) there are things they can do. Heck just put RDM on all the EX WS's, that would immediately fix many issues and would cost nearly no developer time.

There are things you can do but SE is so damn resistant to change. It really does fell like their punishing RDM as a job for all those soloists running around.

Yet, imagine if some got their wish and Temper and Gain spells could be cast on others... imagine that nightmare party where you need to dole out 6 individual hastes, 6 refreshes, 6 tempers, 6 gains, and maybe even 6 phalanx 2s. Basically, any time we're in a situation where we have to buff 3 or more people with the same spell, an AoE equivalent would be far more beneficial.

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.

So, we come kind of full circle to why sphere/aura (like Mantelets, but RDM being it and people receiving as long as they're in range) or buff copying to others as both the more practical and elegant solution. Like it or not, casting burden has been one of RDM's bigger issues over the years, resulting in dropping spells like debuffs on mobs since they weren't terribly essential, perhaps not being able to nuke as often, or most definitely suffer from the melee perspective since you're looking at least 2 seconds of not swinging per spell you cast, which hurts a job that's already third-rate physically for various reasons.

The alternative to AoE spells is significantly longer durations on the single-targets. Personally, I'd gladly pay double, maybe even triple, the MP costs of a spell if it meant I could keep it one someone for 15 minutes or more. Sure, we'll see a glut of dispel/overwriting/buff-stealing happy mobs then, but for more leisurely play, it'd free us up to be a bit more versatile even if heavily leaned on as a party's support in a given group.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Yet, imagine if some got their wish and Temper and Gain spells could be cast on others... imagine that nightmare party where you need to dole out 6 individual hastes, 6 refreshes, 6 tempers, 6 gains, and maybe even 6 phalanx 2s. Basically, any time we're in a situation where we have to buff 3 or more people with the same spell, an AoE equivalent would be far more beneficial.

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.

So, we come kind of full circle to why sphere/aura (like Mantelets, but RDM being it and people receiving as long as they're in range) or buff copying to others as both the more practical and elegant solution. Like it or not, casting burden has been one of RDM's bigger issues over the years, resulting in dropping spells like debuffs on mobs since they weren't terribly essential, perhaps not being able to nuke as often, or most definitely suffer from the melee perspective since you're looking at least 2 seconds of not swinging per spell you cast, which hurts a job that's already third-rate physically for various reasons.

The alternative to AoE spells is significantly longer durations on the single-targets. Personally, I'd gladly pay double, maybe even triple, the MP costs of a spell if it meant I could keep it one someone for 15 minutes or more. Sure, we'll see a glut of dispel/overwriting/buff-stealing happy mobs then, but for more leisurely play, it'd free us up to be a bit more versatile even if heavily leaned on as a party's support in a given group.

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Completely agree with you on all accounts. I was just using accession as an example as it's an already existing game mechanic that's commonly used to share self cast buffs on other party members. Honestly I'd prefer if they made a native RDM JA that made next spell effect everyone within 8 feet. Heck make it not comply with haste but work on Temper / Phalanx / Enspells.

The whole point of this post was to throw a bone to the support role peoples (support not main healer). And while most people only hear my talking about the melee side, it's only because that's the most neglected and least explored aspect. I prefer to do all three aspects of the job, it's why I play RDM the most instead of my WAR, SAM or DRK.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

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What point is proficiency when RDM 99 is facing mobs that are either immune to enfeebling, die before the spell lands, or subjob RDM does an equally efficient job at it? It's more efficient to cast Sleep II on a Treasure Pyxis...

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Originally Posted by Vaness

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

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I don't LIKE being an Enhancing Bot, casting Haste and Refresh on one person at a time. I did it when RDM was desired, I still didn't like it. Acccession > Spell is the case of cast and then recast once at every recast time, it's a lot better that way and less tedious.

This allows plenty of time in between to do other stuff, such as depending on how the player plays RDM, Help with Curing, Nuke, Melee (if allowed) and so on.

I personally only care for Haste and Temper being made Accessionable, Refresh II is alright, but unless you're in a mage party you're not going to need to refresh all those party members.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 1 min Recast.

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And you've failed right out of the gate. Stratagem charge time is 2 minutes: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Stratagems

The rest of your post is built upon an incorrect premise.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.
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I'm sorry you lost me here, are you saying accession doesn't convey over or spell duration and bonuses with our emp +2 gear? Or if we pick up the ability to accession the gain line/Temper spells they wouldn't get the bonus?

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

And you've failed right out of the gate. Stratagem charge time is 2 minutes: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Stratagems

The rest of your post is built upon an incorrect premise.

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I'm sorry you are right, I am a sch main and barely uses /sch or accession as sub....at all.
But that revelation makes the whole accession + haste/temper/gain-spells/enspells even worse.

So the rest of my built isnt exacly built on Incorrect since it was made to show how accession + the new buffs you guys asking, would make you even more of an enhancing bot.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

I'm sorry you lost me here, are you saying accession doesn't convey over or spell duration and bonuses with our emp +2 gear? Or if we pick up the ability to accession the gain line/Temper spells they wouldn't get the bonus?

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She saying that if SE did implement it, that they would screw it up and not include the set bonus from composure, since your targeting yourself.

That's not a screw up though, that's accession working as intended.

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Originally Posted by saevel

She saying that if SE did implement it, that they would screw it up and not include the set bonus from composure, since your targeting yourself.

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Okay thanx

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That's not a screw up though, that's accession working as intended.

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Intended for SCH perhaps. But i'd have my doubt SE would be that trifling about it.

The enhances effect duration bonus effect on cape + feet is transferred yes, full set bonus no because that's not how it works. Simple pasa.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

The enhances effect duration bonus effect on cape + feet is transferred yes, full set bonus no because that's not how it works. Simple pasa.

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you sure about that?
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Estoqueur's_Armor_%2B2_Set

Very sure. Set bonus only works when casting on others. If you're accessioning a self-target spell, then only Cape+Feet will transfer to the other players in AoE.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

I'm sorry you are right, I am a sch main and barely uses /sch or accession as sub....at all.
But that revelation makes the whole accession + haste/temper/gain-spells/enspells even worse.

So the rest of my built isnt exacly built on Incorrect since it was made to show how accession + the new buffs you guys asking, would make you even more of an enhancing bot.

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I still don't see how casting 2 spells as that's the most you can under Accession once at the minimum recast of 3 minutes makes you more an enhancing bot than casting 2 spells 5 times each every 3 minutes minimum.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Very sure. Set bonus only works when casting on others. If you're accessioning a self-target spell, then only Cape+Feet will transfer to the other players in AoE.

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Ah yea okay.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I still don't see how casting 2 spells as that's the most you can under Accession once at the minimum recast of 3 minutes makes you more an enhancing bot than casting 2 spells 5 times each every 3 minutes minimum.

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So Accession -> temper
Accession -> gain-str
haste * X
Refresh * X

Sound right?

I'd rather just Accession Temper, leave a strat open for dispelled buffs/situational uses, and let the WHM use Boost-MND. People don't actually let Red Mages watch a party full of melees on their own without a real healer there, do they?

I could never understand the other things, but I still think that Temper and Enspells at least made some sense why they were not able to be cast on others or made AoE, since they are exclusively for boosting the melee capability of the Red Mage.

You can say that Red Mage is a bad melee all you want and maybe you'd even be right, but they are what SE tried to give to Red Mage for its melee side, and not for enhancing others.

On the rest, I'll say it again. Gain-STAT? WHM can, so whynot RDM? Refresh II? BRD can, why not RDM? Haste? WHM and RDM should be able to with a unique spell, and Haste itself should be Accessionable.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'd rather just Accession Temper, leave a strat open for dispelled buffs/situational uses, and let the WHM use Boost-MND. People don't actually let Red Mages watch a party full of melees on their own without a real healer there, do they?

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Just checking. So anybody want to predict what crap they are going to add?

Native Dual Wield 2.

Many, many lulz would be had.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So Accession -> temper
Accession -> gain-str
haste * X
Refresh * X

Sound right?

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Like I said before:

Only Haste, Temper and Refresh II would be worthwhile with Accession. WHM can do the Gain line already fine, and you'd be better of leaving RDM's at single-target just make it party targetable if anything to give say THF/DNC and so on DEX while the white mage gives the rest another one.

Haste + Temper would end up being the only ones used, and if you were in a mage party you'd only use Refresh II and possibly Haste. A mixed party you'd just cast Refresh II separately, Haste if it's mostly mages.

You can do fine with RDM with only two stratagems unless the enemy dispels.

Haste and Refresh are really not that worthwhile with Accession. Convenient? Situationally. I'd only really bother Accessioning buffs that are otherwise self-target only (eg, Temper). For everything else, it's not really a big deal. It's, like, 2-3 spells every 6 minutes.

I mean, you're not the only mage in the party, right? Split Haste duties with the WHM like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Just checking. So anybody want to predict what crap they are going to add?

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Bind II to go along with Gravity II, obviously.

I'm thinking they will give us Dia / Bio IV - which will be exactly the same as 5/5 III, but with slightly higher DOT.
That will clear up those merits for us.

Then they will add a whole bunch of new NMs that are actually susceptible to Paralyze / Slow / Gravity (gravity won't matter because they will be bosses in events that require a full group).

People will laugh at us.

Then 2 years from now when they update the merit categories, they will change all the spell merit categories to: "Increases <enter spell name here> potency." Which will give para / slow %1 more potency per merit (most mobs will still resist it), and add 2 damage per tick to Bio/Dia.

Then red mage will be perfect (if you look at it in a carnival mirror).

LOL @ AoEing Enspell2's. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

LOL @ AoEing Enspell2's. That is all.

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They would actually be good for 2H melee's. This is of course if SE fix's their scaling issues. Heck the scaling of ALL enspells sucks past 75.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 2 min Recast.

Situation no.1 (You get accession with the possibility to use it with haste, temper, Enspell and Boost-spell)
Actions
No.1 Accession + Haste
No.2 Accession + Temper
No.3 Do whatever for the next 45s because your Accession timer is at 1 min 45s
no.4 Accession + Enspell
no.5 Wait for the 1 min 45s on the second strat.
No.6 Accession Gain-spell

Conclusion:Considering a full AF3 +2 set gives other ppl a 5 min buff (aprox) you would have to keep recasting the buffs.That is an enhancing bot.

Situation no.2 (Haste and refresh 2 as single targets no accession but no gain/enspell/temper to cast)
Action
no1.Cast Haste on Melee
No.2 Cast Refresh II on the WHM while haste timer is down (about 10s)
no.3 Cast Haste on another melee
No.4 Recast haste every 10s until all the melee in your PT got.

Conclusion: It takes you less then 1min 30s to have every1 hasted/refreshed wich leaves you with 3 mins 30s to dance the Lambada if you feel like it.

Ofcourse I might give too much credit to most RDM thinking that they would actually WANT to cast enhancing.....at all.But as soon as you would get to a "certain level" of event, you can be sure that melees and tank would ask and annoy you about having all those shinies on them.So can you really be mad at them for not giving you accession?

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It's funny because I specifically said that I have no interest in improving /SCH and Accession. I just want Composure to AOE Phallanx 2, Temper, and possibly Haste or Gain spells. I don't care about cycles, I just want to benefit people when I benefit myself. Thus not a bot and thus all of your post was misdirected. I apologize that my post about preferring to use Composure as a catalyst to make RDMs cycles go away instead of Accession was a previous post and that you didn't read it. But I have no intention of double posting all day long every time I want to comment on a thread. I simply read everything that everyone has posted thus far so that I don't misinterpret what people are say. I guess that isn't common courtesy on forums.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Native Dual Wield 2.

Many, many lulz would be had.

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Hey I need at least Dual Wield 5 to catch up with the rest of the world. Jk. (Possibly not?)

I honestly have no idea what they are giving us because the only new traits we have gotten are shield mastery and magic burst bonus (thx for no SC). The only job abilities are Saboteur (We all know the problems) and Spontaneity (10 minute recast for 1 spell!). As far as actually new magic we have the Gain Spells, Addle, Break (*grumble*), and Temper.

If you see a pattern...then maybe let us know, because it all looks like random stuff that doesn't have a theme. The only theme I see is that it is the sort of thing you would expect SE to give RDM. Random Stuff with no actual purpose.

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Originally Posted by saevel

They would actually be good for 2H melee's. This is of course if SE fix's their scaling issues. Heck the scaling of ALL enspells sucks past 75.

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Most people I know prefer DNC Merited Haste Samba for the additional TP and possibly superior DPS. Enspells are really only good, not great, when you are against something with incredibly high defense and low magic defense. When your THF hits Jailor of Fortitude or PLD mobs for 1~10 damage, it's nice if they can hit for 27 damage on hits with Enspell 1s.

But hey, if they want to make it so Enspells and Sambas can stack, then I would be happy to worry about if my party has Enspells up. Otherwise I'm undermining my DNC.

As a note, delay cap can be reached without haste samba if you have a 2hour brd. Situational yes, but then enspells trump haste samba completely.

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Most people I know prefer DNC Merited Haste Samba for the additional TP and possibly superior DPS. Enspells are really only good, not great, when you are against something with incredibly high defense and low magic defense. When your THF hits Jailor of Fortitude or PLD mobs for 1~10 damage, it's nice if they can hit for 27 damage on hits with Enspell 1s.

But hey, if they want to make it so Enspells and Sambas can stack, then I would be happy to worry about if my party has Enspells up. Otherwise I'm undermining my DNC.

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Obviously another 10% JA haste would be superior to anything enspells could do without a very specific situation. DNC is also kinda of a rare job, I don't see many in groups and I've rarely partied with one. I was assuming no DNC present. Of course that opens up the possibility of RDM/DNC giving 5% haste samba, depending on situation could be very useful.