Merton Vs Odin: What the hell SE?

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Now SCH gets death-ga. Do you see the problem here? It's not about bitching to bitch. It's about being bent over the table for years, and then being told that 'we could have it worse'.

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You are aware that the spell wasn't used on anything that actually matters, nor anything that was likely above Decent Challenge, right? All that's known at this point is that it uses Dark Magic skill and that the initial damage is roughly on par with a good Charged Whisker or a Mightily Struck Fell Cleave.

If the formula for Merton is similar to that of Helices, the damage will drop off a cliff when used on anything with vaguely high intelligence. Even if the formula is far more forgiving than that, the spell isn't whatever you're saying it is. I'd be very surprised if isn't just as mediocre as Odin on a single Notorious Monster, if not more disappointing.

You have reason to complain. Considering it drops your MP to 0 and requires Astral Flow, Odin is extremely situational. Even times when it would be useful, the better strategy is usually "Wait and see if I unexpectedly need Alexander."

Going off half-cocked and ranting about a spell that may well be pointless once it's actually implemented isn't the best way to make a case for improvements to an avatar.

Do we even know much this spell is going to cost? it could be like Impact and take the majority of your MP...

I wish I was SMN so I could cry with an unrivaled sense of entitlement.

I hope WHM gets a better version of Perfect Defense (alliance wide buff, gives Hastega too) so we can see some real rage.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Now SCH gets death-ga.

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No they don't. They get a high damage and DoT spell with a possibility of other effects, by the look of the video, bind.

The emphasis is the high damage and DoT spell. It is not an instant cast auto-death spell, it is a spell that does a lot of damage. Why are you complaining about this when BLMs have been oneshotting mobs in Abyssea for about a year now? Why aren't you complaining that BLMs are doing the exact same thing as Merton, or whatever the spell's name is now, without losing all their MP or worrying about resist? 11k damage spells on a mob is automatic one-shot on normal mobs, and a huge chunk of HP on NMs.

You have placed your anger at the wrong job, you really should be angry at WARs. They don't need a 2hr to clear our a group of mobs completely.

It really saddens me to see so many Summoner's cry over such useless things, Yes Odin could use a makeover and maybe it would be nice if the Devs looked over Odin again to see about acc. issues and what not, but really? really? I don't think this thread was made with the intentions of bashing SCH, no. I think it's great SCH is getting unique to their 2hr LIKE Summoner got, we got light and dark based 2hr spells only, SCH is getting the same, well to me "Hello there brother Mage, we got something unique to our 2hrs." Though Manafont and Benediction are already higher and more frequently used 2hrs then ours for multitudes of different purposes they still haven't seen a buff to their 2hr, so also be greatful there, I'm not saying SMN's aren't greatful to the buff of their 2hr, just some of you guys WHINE FAR TOO MUCH! GOD GET A GRIP!... and don't get me started "Well Odin and Alexander are 2hrs onry QQ" GUESS WHAT? We're getting Cait Sith, a NON 2hr Avatar YAY rejoice and be marry! and oh, whats this? On top of that we're getting another 2hr Avatar Atomos with I'm sure and praying to be a better usage then Odin! Yay! Weeeeeee! /donerant

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Originally Posted by Francisco

I wish I was SMN so I could cry with an unrivaled sense of entitlement.

I hope WHM gets a better version of Perfect Defense (alliance wide buff, gives Hastega too) so we can see some real rage.

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I was a SMN since late 2007, it was my first job to 75 and leveled it the lonely way. My only concerns with the job were the Elementals AI Avatars procing and getting azure lights with Magic BPs and newer more useful BPs so I don't have to keep using Garuda or Shiva. >.>

Honestly you are right, a lot of SMNs make mountains over ant hills and whine and compare the silliest things to their jobs.
And I thought PUP was the most Whiney community. ;o

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Originally Posted by Miera

And I thought PUP was the most Whiney community. ;o

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Not since verethragna and tactical switch...

If I recall correctly from Kaeko's MV testings, mobs have an internal clock for determining the tick for helices. I also recall hearing that helix ticks tend to initiate upon landing. This might suggest that the initial bar of HP we saw was actually a land and a tick.

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

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And we're tired of people pulling arguments out of nowhere. You don't complain about SMN being gimp, you complain about SMN being gimp compared to SCH in a very special situation, which is more than wrong, it's uncomparable because we're not even exactly sure what the SCH ability does. And it's even more unjustified when you consider that there's several other jobs out there who do exactly what you're complaining about already.

And SMN wasn't gimp. It was unloved and unpopular for party-events, but it could solo/duo things most job combinations couldn't dream of (see Hakutaku). And SCH was quite possibly the only more unpopular job than SMN (possibly before BST). BLM was the better nuker and had -ga spells. WHM and RDM were better for merit parties and most other things because they had Haste, something that made SCH instalol for most healing/support situations.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

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You have no claims at all do you? You just find something you feel needs justification by your standards alone and try to make a valid point when posting a thread or on a thread. Yes Summoner is in need of updates, the entire Summoner community and other people from other Job communities agree whole heartedly, but you just come in here and want to start some sort of controversy to get others whiled up on a topic that is rather pointless Merton vs. Odin, really? Make better and more thought out valid points next time, then people might stop giving you these "degrading" comments you so loathe, but so rightfully deserve. You ask for the comments you receive, you blatantly ask for them when you act the way you do, if you have no more respect for others in a community trying to build the game and community they play on to a better one for us all, not just cater to one individual, then maybe you shouldn't post at all, and keep quiet if you have no more respect, why should anyone treat you with a shred of respect if you're always going to be so disrespectful at anything anyways?

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Originally Posted by Eric

The original point I was trying to make is that there's no harm in letting SCH have Merton, and that Summoners shouldn't be angry, because while Odin's Astral Flow has it's problems, it wasn't as big of an issue(I'm not saying that it wasn't an issue before this)until someone saw Merton and thought "OH NO, SCH is doing something better than SMN! I demand Odin to be made on par with it!".

What some people are forgetting is that SMN can already do so many great things with Astral Flow. Merton won't change that. Not all abilities/spells/2hrs are amazing. So what?

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Why not fix Odin and then give sch something just as awesome but more unique? Go read the job adjustments and bst is also getting something very similar to smn (the mechanics) in wild run. Their pet is going to disappear just like odin and alex. I think every job should have things that are unique and wonderful. What does smn have that's worthwhile and totally ours? Even in the cookie cutter era something needs to be done to make the jobs different and to stand out. Each job needs a signature spell or aspect that belongs solely to them.

Edit: (general not directed to Eric) I'll take the death-ga on mobs that don't matter any day. I have never once gone into a thread about a different job and scolded folks for complaining. Why are all these other jobs doing that here?

I thought this was a discussion forum where folks were free to discuss the game and any aspects of it. Why come in and try to be the thought police and make judgements about the other persons point of view? Then on top of it take the other poster personally to task because you don't agree with them? Everyone has a right to defend himself/herself. Debate is one thing judgement is another. IMO and I can only speak for myself we should be discussing the game in these forums not individuals personally.

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then give sch something just as awesome but more unique?

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What's more unique and pertinent to sch than a spell that can only be used after unlocking it with a job ability. I mean, its not like you summon shultz and he rains fire from the heavens before spinning away on an umbrella.

Deathga is neat, but sucks. Sch appreciates that. A single target dark spell that's in line with sch's use of addendums and strategems that does what appears to be a significant amount of damage is not deathga, and doesn't appreciate that.

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Why are you complaining about this when BLMs have been oneshotting mobs in Abyssea for about a year now?

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Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.

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Originally Posted by Ank

What's more unique and pertinent to sch than a spell that can only be used after unlocking it with a job ability. I mean, its not like you summon shultz and he rains fire from the heavens before spinning away on an umbrella.

Deathga is neat, but sucks. Sch appreciates that. A single target dark spell that's in line with sch's use of addendums and strategems that does what appears to be a significant amount of damage is not deathga, and doesn't appreciate that.

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That's like Marry Poppins on a whole new level! ;o

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.

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You're a SMN, not a BLM. There is a difference why one can do something while another job cannot. That's like saying how come WARs can't Hundred Fists

You forget that those mobs probably check DC to T? It's easy to one shot that and if you notice, it wasn't really a one shot. It brought the mob down to 5% before the DoT spell actually took effect and this spell is only accessible through 2hour and you people complain? Ok, so lets say SE gave all these way over powering things people want for SMN to them. Gave them Death and Doom and were able to 1shot every time the Blood Pact Timer was ready Let's say they got rid of Blood pacts all together and you could Predator Claws back to back and slaughtered anything that crossed your path.

Let's say SE made SMN so godly that it made WARs MNKs and all those other Major DDs out there look like a bunch of weak sissies. Would you be here and complain they have made the job too over powered? Would you tell the Little WARs and MNKs out there to go QQ somewhere else and deal with it?

You guys are crying over a 2hour spell that probably has little to no effect on NMs..

I'll be happy when, instead of something nostalgic from well-loved FF lore, Odin's name is changed to "Odstra".

Now that would be balanced.

I really don't know what is so shocking about this. First, this video was in Abyssea and on weak mobs. I don't place very much faith in this. I do not expect this spell to be that powerful, nor will it do anything for SCH's problems.

And just an FYI, if my set bonus procs on BLM I could probably one shot 10 mobs in Abyssea. And let's remember again, that's where we saw this video! And I could probably do it on BLU too. It's not unbalanced given that other jobs can do the same thing, outside of their two hour.

And as a final note, I'm pretty disappointed with the notes. SMN and SCH are my two favorite jobs and they really didn't get much love this update. None of the great feedback that we heard was included for either job.

Here's looking forward(dreading) lv99!

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.

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Ok, BLM can't 1 shot a group of 10 mobs (without set proc) instantly, they can 2 shot the group of set mobs. Either way, the mobs are dead, and dead without use of all their MP, without use of 2hr, and without a chance to miss/resist alot.

You know what, WARs can kill a group of 10 mobs with 2 WSs, they get TP fast (less than 3 seconds with Retailation) and can do it safer than BLM (either way, still need a WHM healer for the WAR, but still). Why is your anger towards SCH and not other jobs that can effectively kill stuff faster than you can?

...oh wait, you want to gimp everyone down to your level....right....

good maybe they can use that 2hr on worm pts

Admittedly mary poppins schultz is sounding good about now, but I guess I'll leave the summoning to the summoners.

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

You're the one that put people on the defensive. Smn sucks on its own merits.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

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No it isn't. It is still one of the best soloing jobs in the game. SMNs can solo the hardest NMs in this game that not even BSTs will touch.

SMN is not a party intensive job, it is a job that is great for everything but not perfect for one specific thing. The nearest thing it is close to being the best at is its solo ability.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

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"Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent madre monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen begun be uske but-bair. Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent uste monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen, fraulein uske-be clair." This sums up this thread topic and the host of the thread in all, it's nothing but ScheiBe so keep saying all the ScheiBe you want, you're just allowing yourself to be a target for attention you so desperately want anyways...

Does it really matter? FFXI has never been known for its class balance.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik44

"Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent madre monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen begun be uske but-bair. Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent uste monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen, fraulein uske-be clair." This sums up this thread topic and the host of the thread in all, it's nothing but ScheiBe so keep saying all the ScheiBe you want, you're just allowing yourself to be a target for attention you so desperately want anyways...

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I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

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I'll take How many Fingers am I holding up for 400, Alex.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

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There is no translation it is a song, and the title of the song is "Scheibe" meaning "crap" in german basically, so all I was saying was, anything that he has to say is "crap" b/c he has no grounds to stand on, and is just wanting to cause un-needed controversy and wanting attention.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

I'll take How many Fingers am I holding up for 400, Alex.

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I'll haveta say that is a rounding 1 finger? if not then it's 3, but thats a guess! lol

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik44

I'll haveta say that is a rounding 1 finger? if not then it's 3, but thats a guess! lol

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lol just from a snl skit =D

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

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Obviously people who disagree with you don't play SMN, or if they do they just aren't dedicated to the job.

Irrefutable proof.

Could Odin be better? Yes. Is Shock Squall a terrible idea for a Blood Pact? Yes. But Summoner is not a broken, terrible job. Go do some Voidwatch on SMN and fall back in love with the job because it absolutely shines there.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Obviously people who disagree with you don't play SMN, or if they do they just aren't dedicated to the job.

Irrefutable proof.

Could Odin be better? Yes. Is Shock Squall a terrible idea for a Blood Pact? Yes. But Summoner is not a broken, terrible job. Go do some Voidwatch on SMN and fall back in love with the job because it absolutely shines there.

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Negative people only focuses on the negative aspects of a job/game/life. Tarage is a negative person, so he thinks that SMNs are getting the shaft by SCHs new 2 hour spell.

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

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This is the mass majority vote, I think this is what we all read.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

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What I read is a hankering for the unique opposed to cookie cutter.

Edit: but then again I happen to be one of those folks who see the glass as half full instead of half empty.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Irrefutable proof.

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That is a disturbing picture... I hope SE gives you your rainbow staff for throwing your sanity away like that...

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That is a disturbing picture... I hope SE gives you your rainbow staff for throwing your sanity away like that...

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Honestly, I think I put more work into getting other people Empyrean weapons than making a full set of -6 perp staves, it really isn't that hard when you have Empyrean Body and Feet to flatten out your perp cost. Besides, I played through unnerfed CoP, Square stole my sanity years ago.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Honestly, I think I put more work into getting other people Empyrean weapons than making a full set of -6 perp staves, it really isn't that hard when you have Empyrean Body and Feet to flatten out your perp cost. Besides, I played through unnerfed CoP, Square stole my sanity years ago.

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I'm sure the staves are well worth it, and you actually free up some invintory space (though not enough probably) from not needing anything other than staff + yinyang robe for BP delay.