[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] NIN

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Originally Posted by Afania

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

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That was sarcasm. People aren't going to start bringing ninjas to everything just because they got a few more hit points.

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Originally Posted by Louispv

MNK never really did the most damage (Except for the first few weeks of delve, where oats were easy to get, but no one had any other 119 weapons because they came from harder bosses.) they just didn't die nearly so easily. Every fight was "Keep mantra up full time so nothing kills you" or bust.

And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.

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I'll believe it when I start seeing shouts for ninjas in PUG. Until then, the extra HP is pretty much useless.

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Originally Posted by Afania

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

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that depends on the pld, i have seen plds do respectable dmg while main tanking. it all depends if they get the same proper support like any DD would get. obviously a pld with only shit buffs like ballad isnt gonna pull his weigh, but an ochain pld that doesnt have to worry about getting 1 shot due to ochain and/or sherzo can pump out respectable dmg if buffed like a melee. PLD is also one of the jobs to reach some of the highest accuracy numbers by itself by gear/selfbuffs without outside buffs.

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

So does that mean we can look forward to seeing Ni version's or even San in the future?

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Originally Posted by Afania

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

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I agree with this.

Also; nin are very good dd, but if you are comparing them to a sam; yea......sams are just plain broken atm (or rngs whom have the comfort of safety and great damage).

If shurikens and Ninjutsu are brought back, nin will be insane. I miss the utility at lower lvls; thrashing colibri outside of Whitegate with manji and the elemental wheel in the 40s. Good times.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

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I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

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Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now :(. An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice :). Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).

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Originally Posted by WoW

Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now :(. An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice :). Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).

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Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

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Please think of Dancer and any other job that loses a ton of damage from JA delay.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

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Instant/damaging was mentioned in my first post.

I also bolded was. Obviously, i do not use shurikens on my lvl99 nin lol^^ Usually, when I back shurikens, ppl throw the game mechanics and whatnot at me lol^^ i understand where you are coming from Dasva, as a 99 nin, I took all of this into consideration; delay (Throwing and melee). Even with 300dmg shurikens, sange must deal weaponskill -esque damage to compete. i used sange pre-ilvl, but only in abyssea (on birds), were it would crit often on distant mobs (And only on pulls). 2.5-9k on a distance mob is not too shabby. I made my own fumas and money is not really an issue now and days (Salvage,dyna farming, etc). Sange was useless outside, because it would not crit as often. In abyssea, i had a macro for distance mobs out of range. Ppl would say, "Wtf did you hit that bird with" good times^^

I stand firm, throwing can work; for instance, in an old throwing thread, I mentioned an instant damaging throwing ability, akin to konzen-ittai which chainbounds the mob; which allows the nin to follow up with a weaponskill. i mean, nin has burst and skillchain bonus, not entirely far-fetched. Throwing can be done; it is not impossible. Example scenario, throwing skill > 6k damage > chainbound > Blade:whatever > 7k damage > darkness/light > 7k etc. Not saying they will do that, just something I am throwing out there. Dnc can self chain as-well as sam; they both have bonuses. We have bonuses, but cannot skillchain without the aid of another individual.

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Originally Posted by WoW

Instant/damaging was mentioned in my first post.

I also bolded was. Obviously, i do not use shurikens on my lvl99 nin lol^^ Usually, when I back shurikens, ppl throw the game mechanics and whatnot at me lol^^ i understand where you are coming from Dasva, as a 99 nin, I took all of this into consideration; delay (Throwing and melee). Even with 300dmg shurikens, sange must deal weaponskill -esque damage to compete. i used sange pre-ilvl, but only in abyssea (on birds), were it would crit often on distant mobs (And only on pulls). 2.5-9k on a distance mob is not too shabby. I made my own fumas and money is not really an issue now and days (Salvage,dyna farming, etc). Sange was useless outside, because it would not crit as often. In abyssea, i had a macro for distance mobs out of range. Ppl would say, "Wtf did you hit that bird with" good times^^

I stand firm, throwing can work; for instance, in an old throwing thread, I mentioned an instant damaging throwing ability, akin to konzen-ittai which chainbounds the mob; which allows the nin to follow up with a weaponskill. i mean, nin has burst and skillchain bonus, not entirely far-fetched. Throwing can be done; it is not impossible. Example scenario, throwing skill > 6k damage > chainbound > Blade:whatever > 7k damage > darkness/light > 7k etc. Not saying they will do that, just something I am throwing out there. Dnc can self chain as-well as sam; they both have bonuses. We have bonuses, but cannot skillchain without the aid of another individual.

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You vaguely mentioned it could be nice...

But yeah was just listing why it worked at lower levels that it wouldn't at higher if they just did a normal let's raise dmg a little and give it some skill ilvl treatment and specifics on why and what it would need to be as competitive as it was at lower levels.

I'll disagree on money... sure you can make it but in this day and age spending time making money just to refill ammo is too much of a time sink if it's costly in comparison to how it used to be and how it was at times for rng. It would discourage a rather large part of the community if it's decently costly. Why do that when you can put that alex towards a mythic eh? Especially since can pretty much bet your bottom dollar it's not going to make a huge difference in nin dps

I kinda like the skillchain idea... maybe get real creative and make it quickdrawish. Infuse your shuriken with a skillchain element! Maybe give an extra bonus to like a special eneffect

I cannot disagree with others play-style, so I agree; it can be costly for some. Worth (Of an item) varies among individuals.

I practically have relics on stand-by, lol, in the form of money. My old LS assumed i was building a relic because I stayed in dyna. Personally, I will never make a REM. SE has a habit of releasing equally or near equal strong/obtainable melee weapons. Not sure about instruments, staffs, etc. I could knock out the non-alex stages of mythics, but it is not worth it to me. I main bst and nin, i personally use delve or high tier battle weapons. To each its own I suppose. These new skirmish weapons have me intrigued, i have a good feeling about these.

But yea, i was thinking quickdraw -esque or yag speed. The infusion/eneffect is also a nice idea^^ Hopefully SE delivers, I don't see stronger shurikens being used, unless it is something innovative. Plain ol' throwing without or with the massive delay will not cut it; unless the shurikens deal an insane amount of damage or contains a special effect.

I'd bother playing NIN again if:
Sange was the equivalent of a potent barrage (damage-wise and gave much more TP return, also put on 2-3min timer not 5)
had at least a level 2 skillchain property on use so NIN could self skillchain for spike damage+enmity.

Maybe i'm spoiled playing blu/dnc/sam and used to the ability to self skillchain to make things more fun.
The only time ninja gets interesting for me is with /sam subjob, you can sekkanoki and the nin can then self skillchain and ninjitsu magicburst,
but this is not a practical thing to do in serious party battle content - you get stuck with /war subjob forever.

Anyways if you look at samurai main job, it is just flat out broken right now since they can tank, and do absurd self skillchain damage,
so there isnt really a reason to bring a ninja main job to anything unless you revamp ninja damage and make throwing/sange huge burst TP+damage on par with ranger.

There's a huge post on what they would have to do to make throwing a viable option for damage dealing and it's almost universally agreed that SE will never do that. Look it up. This is a huge waste of time.

Still means we can't try to get through to them maybe someday we will.

This post has dated weapons, but the basic premise is still the same. It explains what would have to be done to make throwing relevant.

Ninja throwing will probably never be a thing that people do for anything more than fun and laughs. Not that I wouldn't love to go ninja to a bunch of AA fights instead of "RNG all the things".

I have really great friends that let me come ninja, I just wish Shadows didn't have a long recast time

Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There's a huge post on what they would have to do to make throwing a viable option for damage dealing and it's almost universally agreed that SE will never do that. Look it up. This is a huge waste of time.

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Well there is this...

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken.

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Sure, it's not a huge one, that post, and it doesn't say they are planning on making it a viable option, but you know, they're doing something to it. ^^

I remember they mentioned this already a while ago, but I forget the exact words from back then. I'm also too sleepy to find it right now, as it is of so little importance!

(Might have been this or this or this or this. I'll also mention this from some more whiles ago, where it's said that the cost of shuriken is why they are not being used. Hrm... Also notice the plans on making it possible to craft the inoshikasho! >.>;)

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Originally Posted by Dragoy

Hmmm...



Well there is this...



Sure, it's not a huge one, that post, and it doesn't say they are planning on making it a viable option, but you know, they're doing something to it. ^^

I remember they mentioned this already a while ago, but I forget the exact words from back then. I'm also too sleepy to find it right now, as it is of so little importance!

(Might have been this or this or this or this. I'll also mention this from some more whiles ago, where it's said that the cost of shuriken is why they are not being used. Hrm... Also notice the plans on making it possible to craft the inoshikasho! >.>;)

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Best case scenario, they could give nin a crazy throwing ws that was better than their katana ones. But they can't really make full time throwing a thing.

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

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Yeah, I definitely can't imagine that, heh.

All the more interesting to see what they actually will do, if anything. Not exactly expecting much, but we'll see!

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

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Present day circumstances? None. Potential circumstances? Sure, they could make a BCNM that's immune/nearly immune to ranged damage and does devastating physical AoE moves that wipe shadows very quickly, but Ninjas can keep up? Is it a cop out, yes, but I guess it could be a way to give Nin a use?

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Present day circumstances? None. Potential circumstances? Sure, they could make a BCNM that's immune/nearly immune to ranged damage and does devastating physical AoE moves that wipe shadows very quickly, but Ninjas can keep up? Is it a cop out, yes, but I guess it could be a way to give Nin a use?

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Then you would probably want a paladin and some mages. One screw up with utsusemi and your dead.

Which brings up another point. Instead of adding all sorts of extra shadows and recast reduction to utsusemi, wouldn't it be better to just make it so that only one shadow is consumed per aoe/spell etc. when you are nin main? Leave it as is for subjob....

Or add a level 99 utsusemi type spell that at least partially blocks aoe / magic damage and put it on a separate timer. Maybe only give it 2-3 shadows, but make it so that they are only consumed by magic / ws etc.

The above is a nice 'thinking outside the box' idea, Just 2 Shadows that show differently to Utsusemi, call it 'something: Ichi' that adds 2 shadows that eat up AOE moves/spells, 1min timer

In my imaginary BCNM you could make it immune to magical damage as well, mind you, for spite. I'm not calling this a good idea, I'm just "trying to imagine a universe in which Nin has a real use", heh. For what it's worth, I'm entirely on your side, Ninja, Bst, Pup, etc, they need some lovin, so does Blu but, we're much improved lately honestly.... but, not enough to make us competitive sadly.

In all honesty, I don't give a damn about throwing, I just love Ninja and want the job to be used again. I'm still killing Apad's with a friend who's after horns to, and in spare time rinsing a few Sobeks (amazing how quick you can solo farm skins now IF you wanted to) I didn't jump on the katana bandwagon 3 years back when that multiple groups would be fighting for Guku claims, its nice to sometimes have the zone to myself and have everything in that small area of mis coast. Being a MNK main I should of maybe gone for Vere, but I'm holding out that SE makes Nin, an amazingly put together job, what it needs to be used as a tank again.

If you (SE) only want severly OP Relic or Empherean PLD'd to tank (and there are so many of them out there now because those shields add so much to the job, why not severely increase the DMG on REM Ninja Katana's OR on all 3 of them, add 'Utsusemi: San' so then all tank jobs HAVE to have a REM to compete.

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Originally Posted by Sandmaste

In all honesty, I don't give a damn about throwing, I just love Ninja and want the job to be used again. I'm still killing Apad's with a friend who's after horns to, and in spare time rinsing a few Sobeks (amazing how quick you can solo farm skins now IF you wanted to) I didn't jump on the katana bandwagon 3 years back when that multiple groups would be fighting for Guku claims, its nice to sometimes have the zone to myself and have everything in that small area of mis coast. Being a MNK main I should of maybe gone for Vere, but I'm holding out that SE makes Nin, an amazingly put together job, what it needs to be used as a tank again.

If you (SE) only want severly OP Relic or Empherean PLD'd to tank (and there are so many of them out there now because those shields add so much to the job, why not severely increase the DMG on REM Ninja Katana's OR on all 3 of them, add 'Utsusemi: San' so then all tank jobs HAVE to have a REM to compete.

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I'd be happy if they just boosted nin's damage output to be somewhere near monk without a crazy hard to acquire gear set. I don't think being able to tank is a viable excuse for bad damage. Quite a few DDs are used as tanks more often than nin now these days. I see no reason why nin shouldn't output just as much damage.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'd be happy if they just boosted nin's damage output to be somewhere near monk without a crazy hard to acquire gear set. I don't think being able to tank is a viable excuse for bad damage. Quite a few DDs are used as tanks more often than nin now these days. I see no reason why nin shouldn't output just as much damage.

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This is something I was saying in another thread - There really is no place that shadow tanking is viable nowadays, considering most content includes monsters with heavy AoE and AoE magic attacks that bypass shadows. It cannot compete as a tank anymore. Square need to address it from one of the two sides, either you make NIN have some form of mitigation it didn't previously have, or buff it so that it can at least be used outside of a tanking role.

That said, in fights where AoE is a problem, NINs are could be kind of nice - If they could compete damage wise.

We better be careful with what we ask, they might just make it so more mobs have moves that ignore shadows.
Saying that how good of a tank would a pld be without their shield?

Unfortunately the development team is going to need a bit more time to work on the previously announced shuriken revamps and it has been pushed to October. Additionally, the dual wield adjustments that coincide with these adjustments will also take place in October.

Also, while it hasn't been finalized just yet, I can tell you that they are planning to create a new job trait which will be similar to shuriken version of “Kick Attacks” where you will throw a shuriken without consuming an item.

o.o Shuriken version of "Kick Attacks" that means extra TP generation and doesn't expend your ammo slot item?

I am cautiously interested and hopeful!

So you'll occasionally pull a Shuriken/Dirk out of hammerspace and throw it at the mob when it procs on a dual wield auto-attack.

you will most likely need to have something you can throw equipped in the ammo slot for it to proc if not though, that could be very interesting.

I'm just going to quietly go back to reread a thread called "a Ninja Without Throwing" from the beginnings of the forums so I can laugh at all the people who flamed him so much for suggesting that throwing could/should be an integral part of nin play... poor guy, turns out he was the one SE listened to.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I'm just going to quietly go back to reread a thread called "a Ninja Without Throwing" from the beginnings of the forums so I can laugh at all the people who flamed him so much for suggesting that throwing could/should be an integral part of nin play... poor guy, turns out he was the one SE listened to.

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They didn't flame him in a way that said "THROWING IS STUPID AND SHOULDNT BE A PART OF NINJA", they flamed him in a way that said "Ranged delay and Ninjas naturally high dual wield makes throwing impossible in FFXI for right now". Very very different context. It was shown many a time that even with an absurdly high DPS Shuriken throwing would still hinder a Ninjas TP and WS output, as well as their overall damage.

The fact Square is making it a job trait like Kick attacks is more than clear evidence there was no other way to make throwing useful compared to the melee DPS NIN outputs.

THAT SAID BRUH - This idea they came up with is absolutely great, I think it was even already suggested in that same thread you mentioned (I even made suggestions in that thread lol). I do remember reading a long time ago someone mentioning "Throwing" shuriken like a kick attack or something, except I think they intended it to be consumed, giving it a 100% Recycle chance is also a great idea.

My guess is they'll now be adding some high level r/ex Shuriken with good damage and good buffs... Now i have to wonder will it be based on throwing skill? I think it will be... so level your Throwing friends :D

I think you may want to reread that. my recollection is that most of the flaming was about as baseless as the political troll hate posts you see in other forums. a VERY few discussed mechanics, and frankly, there were a lot of very viable suggestions even with the mechanics as they stood that would make a throwing nin-especially if he interspersed casting-about as useful as the midpoint between cor and rng in the ranged damage category. and it was prophetic in that Aby boss mobs were the beginning of the end for blink-tanking in end-game with all the god-awful AoE damage they've added to end-game content that leave even a good nin's shadows up for what, 5 seconds? so a mechanism that would allow increased DD utility for a nin was a great idea, and not really ahead of its time. what he failed to factor in is that while there have been many things that didn't scale into upper levels-especially ilevel-properly (pet utility to name the biggest to me), the utility/survivability from /dnc is NOT one of them and allows nin to function even without shadows. That said, when is the last time you saw a new end-game strat that involved a nin main? soloing they are ok, but party love... not so much.

of course, you know me, the advocate for all 22 jobs to be equally useful, just via different means...

It'd be nice if there was a bit more balance between all the jobs though, and some weren't so far ahead useful, and other so far behind useless... but I mean, I was reading over some FFXIV stuff with that live stream, and BLU was mentioned... the excuses and reasons they gave for it being difficult to introduce BLU are more or less the exact problems I want to avoid in XI. They're afraid to add BLU almost entirely because it requires you go out and learn spells from enemies, so they're afraid people won't invite BLUs who dont have the right spells...

Another note was they didn't want Summoner to be more "Pet Job" oriented, and wanted it to remain basically a "DoT" job, because if they put more focus on the pet... your skill for the job will have more impact on how you play and they don't want to make the job too technical (cause they know their demographic lol).

Basically the meaning behind this is the only way to truly balance 22 jobs to be useful and interchangeable more or less would be to remove any uniqueness between them so no one possesses to big of a bonus over another, ala FFXIV. I would not enjoy this type of game...

I fully expect this to get used about as much as kick attacks does on monk. My hopes are not up. I would love to be able to replace a RNG in a PUG, but I just don't see this being something that you can full time. SE's love affair with the yin and yang means that it will probably have some horrible side affect like melee accuracy -100, defense -50% or melee delay +500. and share a timer with whatever ability overwrites it so that once you pop it you're stuck with it for longer than you would like.

Either that or it will only be good when used with a set of macro pieces that come exclusively from high level fights that no one uses a ninja on and don't drop items that are useful for the jobs that are needed.

If it's useful at all for full time range attacks, it will poop all over RNGs single use.

well if it's a straight job trait like the occasional kicks a monk dishes out without footwork I don't think it really matters frank, just stay breathing and the things will fly. interesting to see how it's implemented.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I fully expect this to get used about as much as kick attacks does on monk. My hopes are not up. I would love to be able to replace a RNG in a PUG, but I just don't see this being something that you can full time. SE's love affair with the yin and yang means that it will probably have some horrible side affect like melee accuracy -100, defense -50% or melee delay +500. and share a timer with whatever ability overwrites it so that once you pop it you're stuck with it for longer than you would like.

Either that or it will only be good when used with a set of macro pieces that come exclusively from high level fights that no one uses a ninja on and don't drop items that are useful for the jobs that are needed.

If it's useful at all for full time range attacks, it will poop all over RNGs single use.

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Firstly, you're thinking of "Footwork".

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Footwork

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kick_Attacks

Two completely different things. They said it will be like Kick Attacks, so basically it'll be a job trait that will automatically throw shuriken, its just like double attack, an additional attack round, except with shuriken and not your foot.

This shuriken thing will probably use the base damage of the shuriken equipped, so no special foot armor required... Not to mention shuriken have generally quite high DPS, so that won't be a problem for NIN if this trait works well. I imagine it'll also grant additional TP. I imagine they'll make shuriken that offer bonuses outside of base damage too, like a shuriken with Acc+ or something to accommodate the use of this new ability.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Firstly, you're thinking of "Footwork".

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Footwork

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kick_Attacks

Two completely different things. They said it will be like Kick Attacks, so basically it'll be a job trait that will automatically throw shuriken, its just like double attack, an additional attack round, except with shuriken and not your foot.

This shuriken thing will probably use the base damage of the shuriken equipped, so no special foot armor required... Not to mention shuriken have generally quite high DPS, so that won't be a problem for NIN if this trait works well. I imagine it'll also grant additional TP. I imagine they'll make shuriken that offer bonuses outside of base damage too, like a shuriken with Acc+ or something to accommodate the use of this new ability.

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You're right. I was thinking of footwork.

Unfortunately, I don't think it will really satisfy other people's craving for throwing if it just functions like an additional melee attack. And it will still probably have some awful side effect like increased delay or whatever other horror SE can think of.