Ther case for -Prep as related to gear ect

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Just because this game ends at DCs for you doesn't mean it does for the rest of us, you continue to play with your little melee setup and brag about all the DCs you can melee, the rest of us will be off killing NMs with ease.

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Quoted for the truth of it all. Also, what I have been saying for months now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Just because this game ends at DCs for you doesn't mean it does for the rest of us, you continue to play with your little melee setup and brag about all the DCs you can melee, the rest of us will be off killing NMs with ease.

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Aww, did you give up? You lasted so long on your "Gimp means I'm pimp."

Any last Gimp thoughts Raz? You have failed soloing trash mobs and perp gear, and now you want to be recognized for BP/release. It's time to accept you just aren't end game smn material.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Aww, did you give up? You lasted so long on your "Gimp means I'm pimp."

Any last Gimp thoughts Raz? You have failed soloing trash mobs and perp gear, and now you want to be recognized for BP/release. It's time to accept you just aren't end game smn material.

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BP/release <huh!?> who mentioned that? I've never failed at soloing trash mobs, just you fail at picking trash mobs to solo. I was talking about soloing NMs, you know the true test of a Summoner's skill, and strangely a subject on which you're very quiet.

Yeah, totally not interested in what you have to say anymore. Me, silent on soloing? LOL goodbye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yeah, totally not interested in what you have to say anymore. Me, silent on soloing? LOL goodbye.

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Unless it's a DC you're plenty silent on soloing, unless you care to shed some light on it....

Oy.... oy oy

My head hurts all over again, seriously guys? *Rolls his a newspaper and uses hexastrike on all of you*

There's melee for you!

Ya know, I've been hearing this argument now for years on Ffxiclopedia's forums and the fact that it's spilled over to here has made me a very sad panda. So much derailment happened there and is happening here too.

Alright then, let's make some magic!!!

PROOF!

How about some good old fashioned proof folks? Who cares about what anyone can theoretically do eh? I don't give three cait siths how many EP/DC/EM/IT/IT+++ you say can solo. Or how many NMs you say can tickle till you're blue in the face. Or how fast you can wax your epeen in compassion to 15 other people in the span of some made up amount of time.

Let's have some proof!

Youtube is waiting for you! Post those videos up and let's see it! Put your money where your mouth is, or shut your traps. Cause seriously at this point, it's getting old.... Oh... so... old.

Seems rather intangible. Melee and non melee styles of playing SMN are possible, but melee smn are no good at solo'ing NMs. I shouldn't say no good because if the NM is relatively manageable (as in not owning your avatar flat out in 3 minutes or less), it comes down to knowing when to disengage, run like made to a safe distance and resummon when your avatar falls so you won't be stuck struggling to resummon while taking damage.

At the same time, I wouldn't call kiting NM while solo'ing NMs 'easy'. I personally don't choose to solo NMs cause I don't want to be stuck there for 15-20 minutes or some times longer on an NM that will more than likely not drop what I'm looking for. I stomached it when fighting Cernunnos solo cause I really didn't want to bother for something I knew I could do myself... To me, solo'ing tough NMs period (especially if you're looking for a specific drop) is just as inefficient when there's people you could have with you to help like ls members, friends, or random people who want to experience new things and not fail at it. (They DO exist. I've met a few who helped with BCNMs.)

I gotta say that never have I've played a game where there's this much infighting about a choice of playing style.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Seems rather intangible. Melee and non melee styles of playing SMN are possible, but melee smn are no good at solo'ing NMs. I shouldn't say no good because if the NM is relatively manageable (as in not owning your avatar flat out in 3 minutes or less), it comes down to knowing when to disengage, run like made to a safe distance and resummon when your avatar falls so you won't be stuck struggling to resummon while taking damage.

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If your Avatar will die at all during an NM fight melee is completely impossible, unless it's a very weak NM, your Avatar only dies once, and you do less damage in total than a single Blood Pact: Rage. Soloing on Summoner requires hate to be finely balanced, on a prolonged fight even getting caught Summoning can cause the NM to ignore your Avatar until you use a BP:R, which can lead to complications.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soranika

At the same time, I wouldn't call kiting NM while solo'ing NMs 'easy'. I personally don't choose to solo NMs cause I don't want to be stuck there for 15-20 minutes or some times longer on an NM that will more than likely not drop what I'm looking for. I stomached it when fighting Cernunnos solo cause I really didn't want to bother for something I knew I could do myself... To me, solo'ing tough NMs period (especially if you're looking for a specific drop) is just as inefficient when there's people you could have with you to help like ls members, friends, or random people who want to experience new things and not fail at it. (They DO exist. I've met a few who helped with BCNMs.)

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Kiting NMs solo is really easy, do enough of it and it becomes second nature. Outside Abyssea killing it solo has the same chance of getting your drop as with a group. When you factor in the time it would take to get a group organised and fight it Vs. just going out to fight it, the time spent would probably equal out. Soloing on SMN isn't as inefficent as you think, I solo 1'ed my WHM head on Whiro in one evenings play. That being said I do things with my ls, friends, randoms, and I have fun/get the job done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soranika

I gotta say that never have I've played a game where there's this much infighting about a choice of playing style.

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It's not the playstyle itself, I have no real problem with mage melees, the problem I have is the claim it's the only way to play, it's the only way to keep MP up indefinitely, it's useful everywhere, and my personal favorite, even if you can't melee on a fight the melee staff is still superior to a -perp staff.

Honestly though, even though I have no problem with the playstyle it kind of baffles me(the logic behind it, not how to do it that parts easy). The jobs in this game were designed to fill certain roles, and everyone gets a taste for what roles they like early on, leveling WHM to sub to BLM I figured out prefer support roles, but also liked to do things on my own(which naturally led into SMN). It makes little sense to me to to take up a job get it to cap and gear it for something it doesn't excel at. Take melee SMNs they like to get their hands dirty and fight alongside their pets, the goal is now max damage, which SMN isn't great at and there are plenty of jobs that do this much better. Three of these other jobs are even pet jobs, one of which you don't even need to completely give up the support angle(PUP), why not pick up one of these when your goal is to play their style of gameplay?

I don't know how to answer that question. With current job repertoire, I often wonder why I didn't make a Taru Taru. lol But I guess race impact on a job isn't as large as how you play it.

I get what you're saying though. I melee for giggles on my own time and I know SMNs are horrible at hate management when out damaging their avatars and are not viable as DD themselves. But I guess whatever float people's boat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Honestly though, even though I have no problem with the playstyle it kind of baffles me(the logic behind it, not how to do it that parts easy). The jobs in this game were designed to fill certain roles, and everyone gets a taste for what roles they like early on, leveling WHM to sub to BLM I figured out prefer support roles, but also liked to do things on my own(which naturally led into SMN). It makes little sense to me to to take up a job get it to cap and gear it for something it doesn't excel at. Take melee SMNs they like to get their hands dirty and fight alongside their pets, the goal is now max damage, which SMN isn't great at and there are plenty of jobs that do this much better. Three of these other jobs are even pet jobs, one of which you don't even need to completely give up the support angle(PUP), why not pick up one of these when your goal is to play their style of gameplay?

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I'll answer that one. Why don't you play these other jobs you suggested then? It is because you love to play summoner. Not black mage, not puppetmaster, not warrior, not dark knight, not dragoon, etc. Melee smn are of the mindset of maximizing their damage within their job limits and why not? Why wouldn't you want to optimize your damage however you could?

I have pup/drg/drk/blm 90 when I want that kind of play style for damage I will switch to them. But that isn't the case in point and that's what is being lost here in all the epeen-testosterone-juvenile-nonsense that's frankly ruining topics on this board.

There is ...nothing... wrong with taking your staff out and swinging it around besides your avatars. (and there is ... nothing... wrong with standing back either honestly). Yes, you should use your brain and do it with some amount of thought. Don't go taking your staff out on an AoE happy mob or one with a hate rest move where you'll be tanking and quickly in the ground. But other things? Your damage only adds to your avatars, why wouldn't you want to do this? I've never understood the resistance to this. This behavior baffles me the most. As the mages who CAN do this, why don't we?

Our emp staff, which I have us amazing for just this very thing. Why would SE give us this if not for this purpose. A level 3 aftermath and pretty much nothing is living for long at all that isn't an nm. AA/RR/Apoc one Blood Pact, three swings from me (at most) and any regular mob... no matter what the con in aby is gone. I Swing and hit for over 700+ dmg with that monster (and no I don't tank after letting my avatar BP first....really people, have brains about this. Let the avatar do the tanking). If you have trouble managing your hate vs. your avatar go out there and learn how avatar hate management works and stop thinking its some fickle unknown process. Enmity - merits/gear and avatar/pet enmity+ gear works wonnnddeerrs as a start to ending your pet enmity woes (you aren't using favor are you? That messes up enmity btw).

The animosity that comes from people wanting to stand back or join in with their pets needs to stop. It's two different play styles that have been around since I first played back when this game came out. The JPs were doing these two types of things too. Dallas and other NA players weren't the first people to take out their staves against monsters, no matter how much they may think they were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

If you have trouble managing your hate vs. your avatar go out there and learn how avatar hate management works and stop thinking its some fickle unknown process.

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Assault > Blood Pact: Rage > wait for a few more hits before going in > ??? > Profit?
Oh and don't merit STR like an idiot like I did?

Side note: Melee SMN work in Abyssea because we can fall on atma as a crutch. It's actually fairly easy to out DD your avatar if you have a high DMG staff (around 55+) if you're not careful. Most times when I do that, I do more damage than the other DD in the party. But a lot of them are also gimp so... Guess this was a bad comparison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Assault > Blood Pact: Rage > wait for a few more hits before going in > ??? > Profit?
Oh and don't merit STR like an idiot like I did?

Side note: Melee SMN work in Abyssea because we can fall on atma as a crutch. It's actually fairly easy to out DD your avatar if you have a high DMG staff (around 55+) if you're not careful. Most times when I do that, I do more damage than the other DD in the party. But a lot of them are also gimp so... Guess this was a bad comparison.

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I have full STR merits myself actually and have little trouble with this at all (did it for drk and drg). Do you have full enmity merits?

Outside of abyssea I swing at 500+ with a level 3 aftermath going and after a Bloodpact my avatar is still tanking. Then again, outside of abyssea, not many things LIVE after 1 blood pact at all to begin with. :D

But all this still brings to point: Why not melee with your avatar if it isn't detrimental or not your "play style". Again, nothing at all wrong with it not being your play style.

If I remember correctly, I've left my merits at STR +5, MND +3. I've been thinking of changing full merits on INT or CHR. Depends on if I start spending more time on SCH or on DNC... I'm REALLY loving DNC at the moment. And - enmity max merits.

I haven't ever out DD my avatars (with the exception of Carby... poor Carby) outside of abyssea with my physical trial staves. But inside, gotta let them do their business and have words with the mobs before I enter. Like I mentioned in my other thread, I 'grew up' being a melee summoner on my down time when looking for a party. I didn't kite bombs to level, which probably explains why I'm only decent at it and not spectacular like most SMN should be.

Unlike the other people, the only reason why I see SMN as intangible support DD along side their avatars in parties is because they're squishy (But really... DRKs aren't any better) and are basically TP feeders when both avatar and SMN are on the mob. A bad thing when facing something with a lot of TP abilities. It's just a personal observation that while now great DD, SMN CAN make pretty decent damage with the new staves and good equipment as long as they maintain their wits about them. But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Unlike the other people, the only reason why I see SMN as intangible support DD along side their avatars in parties is because they're squishy (But really... DRKs aren't any better) and are basically TP feeders when both avatar and SMN are on the mob. A bad thing when facing something with a lot of TP abilities. It's just a personal observation that while now great DD, SMN CAN make pretty decent damage with the new staves and good equipment as long as they maintain their wits about them. But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters.

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Yes and no, and this is where the problem for everyone lies. People like to slap on an extreme tone for this: "But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters"This isn't always the case and is really dependent on the situation. I know this isn't what you mean, but I pulled it out of context because that's what some people like to do when they read on here. They will scan a post, find one sentence that rips'em off and go to town on it.

In most party situations I'll be fighting BIG nms that are usually non-solos for me. In these cases, no I will not be out there swinging my staff at the mob because they 99.9% of the time have AoEs. Also, in a party situation I differ from the pure meele smn meat heads in that I believe smn is in a support role there and should in those cases stand back and help support while their avatar does it's job. In my LS though this usually means I'm the one tanking with my avatar so I definitely do not want to go in there and do anything to tangle up enmity in any sort of way. Believe it or not, There are lots of times my Hvergelmir isn't on my back.... esp. in these situations.

In solo situations, where most melee smn will melee typically (most, not all.. Dallas has said he likes to jump in even during groups for instance) is where I'll take my staff out and wail on things till the cows come home. But like I said earlier, depends on if it's AoE happy or a hate resetter. TP move spammer doesn't bother me too much if I know that A) my avatar will survive and B) I can kill is fast enough. Just have to use brains when it comes down to it like you said.

The animosity, Tann, will never end until SMN community accepts that a backline SMN is a subset of melee SMN. Moving to the backline is a conscious decision to ignore half the job's potential. There are a few reasons that are acceptable, but anywhere a WAR can melee, everyone can melee.

"I can AFK" is just complete incompetence and deserves to be run out of the forum.

I wouldn't say that Dallas. It is rather "Everywhere a taru can melee, a SMN can melee". A big bulky galka WAR would survive things my SMN can only dream of.

I don't remember anyone saying, "I can AFK" as what they wanted to do. They said I'll back away and let the avatar do the work and not melee: There is a difference there.

I agree on your point about the animosity, but the approach you're using is way too heavy handed and only fostering more and more animosity. Diplomacy was never your strong point :p I reiterate my earlier post: Proof.

Nothing will shut a room of people up faster than good solid indisputable proof. Well at the very least it'll shut'em up a little bit. As it stands you're profile is unlinked to your summoner, there's no proof you have any gear you say you have or you can actually do what you say you can. You've posted no data, no videos, no... nothing. So it looks like you're hiding an aweful lot and just... trolling for the sake of trolling. You're surprised this is the reaction from people?

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

Quote:

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I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

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I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

I don't remember anyone saying, "I can AFK" as what they wanted to do. They said I'll back away and let the avatar do the work and not melee: There is a difference there.

I agree on your point about the animosity, but the approach you're using is way too heavy handed and only fostering more and more animosity. Diplomacy was never your strong point :p I reiterate my earlier post: Proof.

Nothing will shut a room of people up faster than good solid indisputable proof. Well at the very least it'll shut'em up a little bit. As it stands you're profile is unlinked to your summoner, there's no proof you have any gear you say you have or you can actually do what you say you can. You've posted no data, no videos, no... nothing. So it looks like you're hiding an aweful lot and just... trolling for the sake of trolling. You're surprised this is the reaction from people?

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I think he was referring to this post:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

So in choosing to fight an EP for a mindless trial that can complete semi-afk over DCs for the same trial in Abyssea that I could also kill semi-afk you feel some kind of gulf in skill opens up? It's funny because the only real difference here isn't skill(there's no skill involved in killing trash mobs), it's actually that you have a desperate need to seem right and will try any argument to push that notion. You kill DC and call it skill, whereas I kill EPs because they die faster, and save my discussions of skill for when, talking about soloing NMs.

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But once again he displays either an unwillingness or just plain inability to comprehend simple written english. What was a statement about how easy it is to kill <EMs solo for a trial, was partially read at best and intrepretted in a way that is negative to non-melee mages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

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ITT: TotM content is now hard.

Unless you're fighting NMs for upgrade items TotM can be completed half concisous at best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

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*puts an early winter festival present under mala's tree*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

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Solve the Peiste then you're home free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

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Oh, but we are interested in data. Not your made up fuzzy math numbers, but actual data you can back and can be emulated by anyone. Or are you still stating that you can out DD an Ukon WAR? I would love to see you try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Oh, but we are interested in data. Not your made up fuzzy math numbers, but actual data you can back and can be emulated by anyone. Or are you still stating that you can out DD an Ukon WAR? I would love to see you try.

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Out DD a Ukon Warrior? Sure I can do that!
.
.
.
.
.
.......

Wait.. what?

Got an emp staff yet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Out DD a Ukon Warrior? Sure I can do that!
.
.
.
.
.
.......

Wait.. what?

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Dallas has claimed that before(though he won't admit it now), now he just implies that the only reason WAR is a great DD is because it recieves buffs in a party, but SMN doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Dallas has claimed that before(though he won't admit it now), now he just implies that the only reason WAR is a great DD is because it recieves buffs in a party, but SMN doesn't.

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Even without party buffs, a WAR with Ukon will do at least 2, at most 4 times more damage than a buffed SMN. Depending on the gear and skill of the WAR though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Got an emp staff yet?

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Why yes, yes I do actually. :) I'll find ya on kingnobody and show ya sometime.

As for out DDing a war... Yeah, no...


Well okay, one that is crappy geared sure. But a Ukon war? No way in hell. I've been with ukon wars (hell my shell has a 90 Bravura war) and there's no way I come close to their dmg. I get hally jollies from my 600+ a swing with a level 3 aftermath going. They get their jollies from 1200+ a swing.


Yeah, I'll get to out DDing a war as a smn right now.... >.>

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

Fine by me, I'll bring a level 95 Ukon too for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Fine by me, I'll bring a level 95 Ukon too for this.

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Oh please do, I do so want to see how a smn can possibly out damage that monster.

Cuz... {I'm interested}

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

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Apparently us Xbox riff raff aren't welcome(j/k).

Funnily enough I had pretty solidly decided to not bother joining the test forum back when it was announced. Then I read your post, and thought wth why not? And now that I can't join it.... I really really want to lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Oh please do, I do so want to see how a smn can possibly out damage that monster.

Cuz... {I'm interested}

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Happy thoughts and wishing REAL hard.

Found out a problem about this test server.

It won't be a true test of skill because skill levels are skewed too much to have an accurate showing.

Also, there aren't many EM+ mobs at 95 anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Found out a problem about this test server.

It won't be a true test of skill because skill levels are skewed too much to have an accurate showing.

Also, there aren't many EM+ mobs at 95 anymore.

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If they can fix it so we can cap out skill levels I'd be happy with this. As for EM+ at 95 there aren't any in the revamps areas? I haven't checked what they con now, but some should.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

---

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

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ITT: Dallas is too scared to be proven wrong. Because he knows he will be proven wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

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Funnily enough the only one not involved in the discussion in any real way is you. Btw insults, wild claims and plain faced lies don't count as part of the discussion.