How so? It plays into what is needed to change the dynamic between players and RDM: you forcefully remove the option to have RDM spam buffs, giving room for adjustments to ease the move into the front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
I mean, think about it. You remove Refresh, Haste and Phalanx II from the equation in terms of what it brings to the party, toss in front-line relevant changes and adjust from there. It'd be hard to use what remains of RDM's healing power as a reason to keep the job rooted to the back row (even moreso when you take into account WHM being the new popular job). Single-target Protect and Shell are MP-heavy and inefficient to use, so buffs provided by RDM would be limited.
Granted, this pretty much kills the backrow support playstyle, but... *shrug*
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07-17-2011, 07:16 AMDuelle
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07-17-2011, 07:22 AMSwordsI don't think that would happen, players probably would make RDM into a 2nd or 3rd rate nuker with respect to slightly higher curing capacity and enfeeblement capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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07-17-2011, 07:54 AMNeisan_Quetz
I wouldn't play Rdm anymore if all of our buffs became Self target. Enfeebling alone doesn't justify not being able to cast buffs on others. It's also stupid since our set bonus depends on casting buffs on others.
Rdm is 3rd rate nuker anyway technically, Blm and Sch have higher tier nukes. -
07-17-2011, 07:54 AMDuelleI admit there is a risk of that happening. The risk would be higher if the cap was still 75. Right now, the only reason nukes even came to matter for RDM was because of refresh/MAB atma and the crapton of +MAB we got from gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swords
Granted, I'd say the suggestion I was referencing would be the first of several changes. I really wouldn't expect the devs to relieve us of the refresh/haste burden without a little extra to help us claim a new role.This depends on what is given to replace the busywork created by cycles and spamming buffs.Quote:
Enfeebling alone doesn't justify not being able to cast buffs on others.
That'd just mean our AF3 set would have to be adjusted accordingly. Nothing too difficult.Quote:
It's also stupid since our set bonus depends on casting buffs on others.
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07-17-2011, 08:00 AMNeisan_Quetz
The hell, nukes always mattered to Rdm, that's why we have MAB Traits and gear for it...
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07-17-2011, 08:29 AMSupersunOh please, nuking was even more of a solo toy post TouA - pre abyssea then melee was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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07-17-2011, 08:39 AMDuelleYou mean just like how we have all those shields and Shield Mastery to go with it? >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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07-17-2011, 08:49 AMNeisan_Quetz
Nuking was just fine except on stuff that heavily resisted it/had really high intelligence such as wyrms/khim etc.
Bringing up troll traits doesn't help you, Rdm has had MAB/Nuking gear and the second highest tiers of elemental magic since day 1. -
07-17-2011, 09:02 AMSupersunWe also have the lowest elemental skill in the game next to a Scholar without dark arts up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
We've had SOME nuking gear back then. Pre Scholar our nuking was pretty awful. -
07-17-2011, 09:06 AMNeisan_Quetz
Because Drk should be nuking with no MAB, equipping weapons that give no bonus and elemental tiers below Rdm...
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07-17-2011, 09:06 AMGreatguardian
Red Mage solo'ing relied on nuke spamming. Red Mage was the strongest nuker in the game for a few months in between Visions and Scars of Abyssea releases. What the hell is this about Red Mage nukes being an afterthought or useless?
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07-17-2011, 09:10 AMSupersunRed Mage soloing used to rely in Bind + DoTs and dumping whatever you had left between convert cycles into nuking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
It was pretty bad in the time between TouA where everything was bred to resist manaburns and /sch where we could actually get a respectable nuking skill. -
07-17-2011, 09:27 AMGreatguardian
DoTs were nice, but the majority of my damage when solo'ing always came from nukes. Bind, Gravity, Nuke nuke nuke, throw DoTs as they wear off. Run out of MP? Recast Utsu/SS, Rest, Nuke more till Convert was back up. Was resting impractical on some solos? Definitely. But I found that many Rdm soloers were simply overly cautious and took significantly longer because of it.
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07-17-2011, 09:54 AMSupersunGravity is pretty dangerous to rely on. The resistance a mob builds to it can quickly screw you over if you aren't careful. I mean sure now days you can easily kill plenty of things before that resistance will come back to bite you but back then where your nukes had a relatively high chance of getting resisted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
I mean sure, if your bind timer is up and the mob is still bound and you have MP to spare go right ahead, but I'd be surprised if nukes out damaged your DoTs.
Nukes become a lot harder to use when you are trying to use gravity as a safety net as opposed to the primary method for stopping the mob. -
07-17-2011, 10:00 AMGreatguardian
Gravity as a safety net? Safety net?
I think you're misinterpreting. Think about it a minute. What would happen if I cast bind, and then started nuking?
Right. And even then, Red Mage is very much capable of straight tanking monsters if it means throwing out more damage. You're talking about safety nets, I'm talking about Red Mage being sturdier than most Rdms think and not requiring all those safety nets. Edit: Qualifier, assuming the RDM has a PDT set that doesn't suck and a FC/Haste set for Utsu, knows how to use Aquaveil, etc. Bonus points for Rdms rocking 104% SIR sets pre-Veil Update.
As for nukes versus DoT on total damage dealt? That's not even a contest. Nukes are going to destroy DoTs in overall damage. That doesn't mean DoTs are bad, they're an addition to the arsenal and they're cheap. But you're either overestimating the power of DoTs, or underestimating the power of nukes. I'm not sure which. -
07-17-2011, 10:39 AMSupersunIt's not like all of those things were fully known at the beginning of TouA. Haste sets were relatively lacking until the turban was discovered (and remember information tended to spread quite a bit slower back then), 104% SIR certainly wasn't as well know about back then. It really depends on the time you are talking about. The farther we got into TouA and the more stuff we learned about it and the game in general the better Red Mage got at soloing and the more viable nukes became.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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07-17-2011, 11:08 AMGreatguardian
Why are we talking about the beginning of ToAU now? Your stated timeframe was ToAU release to Visions of Abyssea release. Was everything fully known by everybody? No. Is that even the case now? Hell no. Does that mean it was less true? Absolutely not.
104% SIR was extremely common before Visions of Abyssea and the Aquaveil changes among well geared players. Nukes didn't become more viable as time went on. People just became less stupid. Regardless, they were never "More of a toy than melee was". Comparing RDM's nuking capacity, where they were even the best nuker in the game for a few months, to their melee capacity which has always been crap-tier is absolutely ridiculous. -
07-17-2011, 11:11 AMSupersun
I said TouA - /sch aka WotG.
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07-17-2011, 11:17 AMGreatguardian
Nuh uh. 0912345
Edit: I see what you're talking about. But no, /SCH didn't change anything because all of the real difficult solos were attempted /NIN anyways. You're not getting Dark Arts that way =/.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersun
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07-17-2011, 11:31 AMSupersunI thought we were talking about this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersun
Even still, pre abyssea in general nuking was a terrible source of DoT because of the lack of MP regeneration and MP efficiency.
As long as the mob wasn't some craptastically difficult mob where only samurais would be attacking it anyway I'm pretty sure Rdm melee would beat it's nuking game back then. Hell, it still probably beats it even now outside of abyssea and that's saying something :( -
07-17-2011, 11:36 AMNeisan_Quetz
Our melee options were even worse than nuking ones aside from piercing weak targets at the time.
What lack of MP regeneration? Rdm has never lacked that... it just got better with levels. -
07-17-2011, 11:40 AMGreatguardian
Are we talking about the same situation any more?
I'm talking about solo'ing. You seem to be talking about group play where the MP could be spent on other things?
As far as Melee's effectiveness compared to nuking, that's going to depend on the target. The weaker the target is, the more relative effectiveness melee is going to have. The stronger the target, the less relative effectiveness melee will have. Nuking will have roughly the same amount of effectiveness either way, assuming the Rdm switches between potency and accuracy sets as necessary. I wouldn't bother nuking an EP or TW, that's just a waste of time and MP.
I'll just take this apart point by point.
1) Nuking was more of a joke than Melee'ing before Abyssea. False.
2) Nuking was ineffective in solos. False. It is, and always has been, significantly more effective than DoTs. DoTs are an addendum to Nuking, not a replacement, and relying on them will make everything take much longer.
3) Nuking was ineffective before /SCH was released. False. How many half-difficult Solos were RDMs subbing SCH for? For everything else, NIN sub was most definitely not getting Dark Arts so the release of WotG made absolutely no difference.
4) Nuking as part of group play was a waste of MP per damage dealt. Agreed. I'm not sure why this was brought up at all, but I never implied that casting Nukes was an awesome use of MP when you had DDs there with you to deal damage and you had to concern yourself with Hasting/Curing/Buffing them.
Was nuking always the best thing to do? Definitely not. Was it somehow super weak because of Rdm's low skill? No way. Was it anywhere near the kind of joke Melee was? Absolutely not. Nuking was something you did on targets that were strong. Melee'ing is something you got away with when targets were weak. -
07-17-2011, 12:19 PMSupersun
1) I said nuking was more of a solo toy then melee was
2) DoTs aren't an addendum to nuking. If anything it's vise versa. Sure those solos take a lot longer without nuking, but they aren't even possible without the DoTs. The monster would likely turn white and regen HP if those DoTs weren't on
3) Yeah, you're right on that one. Too used to abyssea candy where I can get away with /sch for plenty of things as the arts reduces the solo time by quite a but.
I still think you are underrating Rdm melee back then a bit more then you should. It wasn't like leagues worse then any other 1h weapon user post 2h update. Hell, pre 2h update it was probably better then Drk (on birds) lol. -
07-17-2011, 12:22 PMNeisan_Quetz
Worse than (at best equal to) a Thf not using SA/TA is leagues worse than other 1h users. Cept maybe... pre update Dnc not using Saber Dance I guess (assuming both using haste samba, still putting money on Dnc)? I suppose you could compare to 75 Blu since they had it pretty bad back then, and they still had Vorpal/CA going for them.
EDIT: not gonna lie though, pre 2h buff 2h melee was pretty awful, but Drk could just /nin and spampage so still not seeing how you're beating that. -
07-17-2011, 12:27 PMGreatguardian
DoTs neither keep claim nor prevent regen. I'm not sure why that myth is still being perpetuated.
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07-17-2011, 12:46 PMSupersunmy mistake then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
(Also I'm pretty sure Rdm could have beaten a thf if they didn't use using SA/TA. You really have to give more credit to the brokeness that the joyeuse was) -
07-17-2011, 12:47 PMNeisan_Quetz
Hard to when they had X's if using Evis and DE crapped all over Evis if they didn't.
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07-17-2011, 12:48 PMSupersunThere's more to DDing on Exp mobs then just the WS. We trounced them pretty damn hard in the DoT department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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07-17-2011, 12:50 PMNeisan_Quetz
You're still assuming they never used SA/TA, which is hard to believe unless they were awful/geared badly/didn't have SA/TA sets.
Oh, and perma TA +10%. And Asscharge.
EDIT: wow, maybe thief after all, still cutting it close assuming they're not even using JA... -
07-17-2011, 01:01 PMSupersun
TA + Charge isn't going to even get close to a job that can equip a 13.5 DPS weapon that increased your WS frequency by 45% and a spell that more or less had the same effect as adding 50-100 Str during the TP phase.
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07-17-2011, 01:12 PMNeisan_Quetz
It isn't like adding 50-100 str during tp at all, and you're still assuming they never used JA. Shit if skill wasn't an issue Thf could use Ridill...
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07-17-2011, 03:12 PMSerihaClaim, no, regen prevention, yes. Otherwise, there's no way in hell RDMs could've soloed Duke Berith back in the day if trying for their Chapeau as it was basically an exercise in DoT, reraise, repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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07-17-2011, 03:22 PMGreatguardian
Casting an offensive spell (in this case, a DoT) will reset the timer before a mob will start to regen. The act of having a DoT will not prevent a monster from regenning after they go idle. You're welcome to try it out. Nuke something, cast a long-lasting unresistable DoT on it like dia or bio, then die and watch it idle/regen.
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07-17-2011, 04:29 PMSeriha
Ran out with a mule and gathered a couple bees to take me out. Deliberately took one to 30% or so. When I got near death, I proceeded to Dia as many as I could. The 30% one died while I was dead, others continued to lose HP until Dia wore off 48s later. Sorry, but it stops idle regen.
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07-17-2011, 05:14 PMSupersun
I knew I wasn't crazy.
Had to be some reason my Zone -> Bio -> Zone strategy worked on Murphey to get my hat back in the day -
07-17-2011, 05:15 PMNeisan_Quetz
EDIT: Memory is foggy, still think later NMs recovered hp a lot faster than that. or just prevented it from depopping... I do remember Tyger going to hell once and once idle was regening 3-5% hp/tick easy.
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07-17-2011, 06:45 PMSeriha
Granted DoTs only offset innate regens, which SE's added to some later (H)NMs. Other conditional aspects like rage modes could possibly introduce things we hadn't quite picked up on, either. Still, the passive stat and initial regen should be under 30s of going idle, probably closer to 15.
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07-18-2011, 09:21 AMRyozen
Why are people continuing to compare well/optimally-geared melee RDMs to classes which are apparently AFKing for 3/4th of the fight?
How does this make any sense? -
07-18-2011, 10:15 AMSupersunBecause people are still taking DDs that afk for 3/4th of the fight over Rdms?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryozen
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07-18-2011, 10:28 AMTybudX
Of course we will, your melee RDM is still onlyu doing at most 80% of what those poorly geared, 3/4 of a fight afking DDs do.