Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You are stupid, end of story. I wish there was a nicer way to say it. Summoners can do a whole ton of things. They are not just cure bots or AV killers.

I wasn't really the one making that direct comparison, it is an apples/oranges kind of thing. SMN can be a respectiable dealer of damage if you build for it. If only more people were a little more open minded than "you're a mage, cure me and give me stoneskin."

Right. Which means that a SMN DD setup is not bottom tier because it's better than that. That said, I disagree with how low DRK gets ranked in this. I realize you can't have it on all the time but souleater WS in abyssea are ridiculous. One trick pony, maybe. But a fun one trick pony.

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You're lying to yourself if you think that SMN can keep up with, well, anyone. It might beat out WHM, but Gambanteinn is pretty beastly too. In the end, SMN has absolutely nothing other than Perfect Defense going for it. Some good solo maybe, although anything a SMN can do I'm certain another job could solo better. I hate to say it, cause SMN is a great concept but you have to face the truth man.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Al, I make the comparisons I do in a very specific way to lure the BG spies out from hiding. Here, I'll teach you how to do it as well:

Never start a melee SMN conversation mentioning avatars.

That's all there is to it. If I don't mention it, they don't know it exists. They are correct in one very specific argument: if you only look at auto-attack, you only have auto-attack.

I hope he retreats to bring back reinforcements!

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If you're saying that SMN Melee is the only job with auto-attack, which is what it sounds like, you're pretty wrong. WHM can Auto-attack too I heard.

No one else though, everyone just meditates for TP.

Being 7% below Ukon makes it the lowest DPS Empyrean. That whole example was stupid.

Also, what does Summoner do better than other jobs while meleeing? It may be the best hateless damage source at range, but fights that require hateless damage sources at range generally don't want a Summoner meleeing. Beyond that, your actual DPS is dwarfed by every other job that claims the title "DD" (probably including PUP - who also does hateless damage) and you can't heal as well as White Mage. You can worry monsters to death safely if you have enough Summoners, but it's not very relevant these days with proc systems.

Play the job if you want. Lead linkshells that sing the praises of Summoner and impose your melee summoner on them every fight. Just don't forget that you're a burden.

PS. Git mad

I'm guessing Dallas is forgetting things like Physical Damage and Magical Damage.

If you gear for Melee SMN, you would be great inside Abyssea, where you don't need the perp gear to do awesome melee damage on your SMN and avatar gets the boosts from atmas also.

Outside Abyssea? Your avatar wouldn't last more than 2 minutes with the melee gear needed to keep it out with the emp staff.

But Ukon is great outside of Abyssea as well as inside. If this game was only Abyssea, Dallas would have a point.

But then again, you got to understand his attitude.

Personally, I would listen to Alhanelem when it comes to melee SMN.

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So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?

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I'm just glad SE didn't make the empy staff either a MAB staff or a cure potency staff. I'm sick and tired of all "all mages" weapons and armors being either WHM or BLM designed and never SMN designed.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm just glad SE didn't make the empy staff either a MAB staff or a cure potency staff. I'm sick and tired of all "all mages" weapons and armors being either WHM or BLM designed and never SMN designed.

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All we need is Nirvana.

You can't get any better than that. In fact, you don't NEED anything better than that.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Al, I make the comparisons I do in a very specific way to lure the BG spies out from hiding. Here, I'll teach you how to do it as well:

Never start a melee SMN conversation mentioning avatars.

That's all there is to it. If I don't mention it, they don't know it exists. They are correct in one very specific argument: if you only look at auto-attack, you only have auto-attack.

I hope he retreats to bring back reinforcements!

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Frankly the BG crowd can stay where they belong- they're too stuck up and stubborn for their own good.

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All we need is Nirvana.

You can't get any better than that. In fact, you don't NEED anything better than that.

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Nirvana is great, if only for the pet MAB now. It's been superceded as a weapon, and the perp - is no longer really needed in the weapon slot with so much other perp and refresh available.

That and mythic weapons are nearly impossible to get. At least the empyrean weapon is obtainable.

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Outside Abyssea? Your avatar wouldn't last more than 2 minutes with the melee gear needed to keep it out with the emp staff.

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It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Nirvana is great, if only for the pet MAB now. It's been superceded as a weapon, and the perp - is no longer really needed in the weapon slot with so much other perp and refresh available.

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Of course, thats all you really need from a Nirvana. But who wouldn't say no to MAB+30 on Magical BPs?

Also, Nirvana gives that nice little stat that makes gearing for melee that much nicer (Acc+30).

I'm not saying that the perp- isn't needed, but its way too much now with +2 armors. But it is still the best weapon for BPs.

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It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

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Pwer does decrease, but it decreases at a more rapid rate than actual DDs. Its easy for a WAR to go from doing 10k Ukko's Fury to a 4k Ukko's Fury, and still have a decent DoT rate. Also, WARs are also able to obtain TP really easy, even on IT+ mobs. SMN, however, have a horrible rate of obtaining TP, even with capped skill and fighting DCs or higher. Sure, you can gear for it, and have a small increase of TP gain, but you are losing out a lot of perp- gear, and by the time you are able to get 300% TP, you would have less than 10% of your MP, if at best! Although, this is speculation.

I can ride Convert timers with only +4 refresh (+1 from auto-refresh traits and absolute free avatars, and +3 from Refresh from /RDM) and still do ~10 BPs without even any of them Blood Boon procs. If anything lasts that long that is.

Inside Abyssea I use Minkin so I don't HAVE to use convert at all. I can BP:R and BP:W without converting. Maybe adding a Mana Cede every now and then.

But thats my playstyle. Generally I only solo as SMN, with a very rare occasion of petkills party.

That's why I'm probably will never get an emp staff. Well, unless I have everything else.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

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On anything remotely difficult outside Abyssea you're putting yourself in AOE range/-ja/-ga4 range for minimal gains. By the time you get TP to use Myrkr, you've either drained another mages MP keeping you alive, used up MP curing yourself or have died to the variety of AOE TP, AOE attacks (Hahava/Celaeno/Voidwrought/Ixion-style dd) or AOE aura effects.

Everyone's power decreases but DD SMN is something that just isn't practical in a world where HP pools are smaller and eating AOE is less than ideal(deadly). It's like DD BRD - a toy that exists inside the world of Abyssea where everyone can potentially be awesome but make no mistake it sucks outside and isn't worth eating the lightest of AOE.

On garbage like Sea NMs or Sky or other 75 content? Sure, DD SMN away but don't be surprised when your acc is terrible on anything designed for lvl90 outside Abyssea.

That being said, the staves should have had relevant stats for mages (hiRelic) or access to spells locked otherwise like the Twilight Cloak. In their current states the weapons just don't make enough of an impact (see what I did there?) to be worth the effort beyond the Empyrean weapons. Never have.

Everytime I see a Claustrum my heart sinks knowing all that work went into a weapon that practically will never be used outside clowning around.

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Its easy for a WAR to go from doing 10k Ukko's Fury to a 4k Ukko's Fury, and still have a decent DoT rate.

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Same for SMN. The whole point of the weapon is the higher DoT. Staff is not about its weapon skills. But you also have an avatar up doing its own melee DoT and the periodic spike damage.

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and by the time you are able to get 300% TP, you would have less than 10% of your MP, if at best!

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My personal experience declares this false. If you can't keep your MP up from one TP to the next, you're doing something wrong. And even if that's the case, you still have elemental siphon to fall back on.
Offensive gear in the visible gear slots is pretty limited. So you can keep most of your perp- and refresh, and favor the rings/earrings/back/waist/neck/weapon/grip. Additionally, Myrkr's mod is max MP (effectively), and with your usual SMN gear mostly having lots of MP on it, you will have it on for that. If you are using up more than 60% of your MP in the time it takes to build TP, you're doing something seriously wrong.

You can exercise your right to not use this playstyle, but I will exercise my right to say and prove that it is a useable and viable playstyle.

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Everytime I see a Claustrum my heart sinks knowing all that work went into a weapon that practically will never be used outside clowning around.

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Anyone who builds one of these weapons is not "clowning around." They are among the most serious and dedicated about their job. Besides, it is their right and privilege to get whatever weapon they want, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Anyone who builds one of these weapons is not "clowning around." They are among the most serious and dedicated about their job. Besides, it is their right and privilege to get whatever weapon they want, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

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If you're serious about a class, you understand and recognize the flaws of the given job. Failing to do so is a show of denial. This isn't about elitism, the facts are simply the facts.

-BLM is a terrible damage dealer yet Claustrum encourages melee-oriented play. The weapon does nothing to enhance the magical aspect of the class.
-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.

Why would you chase these weapons down other than show off at Easy Prey mobs/Jeuno? You won't nuke harder, your avatars wont behave any differently so you're basically just clowning around and there is nothing wrong with that....

'til you realize you spent months if not over a year to master the art of killing Easy Preys that much faster.

If you're dedicated to a class, you understand the staff weapons (barring Mythics) are largely impractical and inferior to other easier options. I won't tell people not to get these but the numbers will not lie.

You will do worse nuking in a Claustrum.
Your Claustrum will do nothing on SMN.
The weapon by definition lacks utility outside soloing EPs.