I would argue that a reive system that is designed in such a way that it becomes necessary to essentially nullify contributions made by jobs using their primary tool is an intrinsically flawed system anyway. If SE are truly concerned about reives being soloable by pet jobs (and any jobs capable of ranged attacks or ranged magic attacks, for lair reives - that's a LOT of jobs) then effectively disallowing rewards for those jobs is about the most terrible way possible of "solving" the issue. A design adjustment that makes soloing ineffective, impossible or impractical that also makes non-solo participation actually rewarding is the more difficult, but correct solution.
Whether meleeing as a non-melee specialist job is more or less effective is essentially irrelevant in the context of this issue, really. There are ways for almost any job to further increase their rewards by doing somewhat "nonstandard" things. But it should not be necessary or required in order to recieve passable rewards, as opposed to the use of a job's primary mechanics, as it currently is for jobs like SMN.
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04-20-2013, 02:13 AMJerbob
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04-20-2013, 03:37 AMAlhanelemExcept it's really not. Use the buffs that help you and everyone around you (summoner effects work on everyone.Quote:
I would argue that a reive system that is designed in such a way that it becomes necessary to essentially nullify contributions made by jobs using their primary tool is an intrinsically flawed system anyway.
You're not disallowed from rewards. You're only disallowed from exclusively using pets to do everything while you sit back and watch. Back when campaign was new they had to nerf BRD song contribution because large numbers of people were going BRD, standing away from the action, and spamming bard songs. How would you have solved this problem? How do you prevent such passive participation from being rewarded more than putting an effort in? Fair question- I'm willing to listen to solutions.Quote:
then effectively disallowing rewards for those jobs is about the most terrible way possible of "solving" the issue. A design adjustment that makes soloing ineffective, impossible or impractical that also makes non-solo participation actually rewarding is the more difficult, but correct solution.
Well, you were arguing that you should be able to consciously choose to perform worse than people around you and still get the same benefit - at least, that's how I saw it - because that's basically what you're doing by refusing to melee on any given job in a rieve.Quote:
Whether meleeing as a non-melee specialist job is more or less effective is essentially irrelevant in the context of this issue, really. There are ways for almost any job to further increase their rewards by doing somewhat "nonstandard" things. But it should not be necessary or required in order to recieve passable rewards, as opposed to the use of a job's primary mechanics, as it currently is for jobs like SMN.
Balancing contribution so that all 22 jobs can earn exactly the same will be nearly impossible. -
04-20-2013, 04:14 AMJerbob
I must admit I gave up on SMN pretty quickly in reives (partly because it was so dreadful and partly because I got sick of enmity issues elsewhere) so I don't recall if using lots of wards is rewarded well, but judging by Campaign (and other "contribution-relative reward" systems) and a rep comment a few days ago mentioning that reives were specifically set up to prevent the "bard bot" problem you mention, I suspect the rewards for enhancing in particular are very substandard. Of course I don't have direct evidence for this at the moment so I'll have a look for myself over the weekend, probably. Obviously enhancing/healing people with wards is a very positive thing, but if there is no reward for it then I refer back to my first post in this thread re: the expectation that "mages" heavily sacrifice their own rewards for others.
Pets are the foundation of SMN. As a summoner I'm fragile, I'm not built for meleeing, and my selection of equipment is limited. There's also the argument that if I wanted to get seriously into melee I wouldn't be there as SMN. A loose comparison might be an avatar to a MNK's hand-to-hand weapon - yes, I can punch (melee) things with a degree of success, but without my hand-to-hand weapon (avatar) I'm really losing out. If a MNK's bonuses from their weapon were ignored in rieves, there would be uproar. I would never claim that meleeing isn't possible during rieves for SMN - it certainly is - but it's not why I'm there as a SMN and it's not what I'm good at, so it should not be required if I am to recieve any benefit.
I would argue that using avatars is not passive participation any more than someone engaging a target in melee and weaponskilling at 100% TP. I still have to be wary of my avatar's HP, and my own. I still have to "weaponskill at 100% TP", i.e. use blood pacts. In fact, as you have demonstrated, my ward pacts have a more beneficial effect on other participants than a generic auto-attacking player. Bards spamming songs in Campaign -IS- passive participation, I agree. That problem could have been solved by allowing songs to hit NPCs/allied PCs like Wards do, and requiring that songs affect multiple targets that are actively participating in battle before they grant EXP, which would also put bards into more dangerous positions that would require active player input. Likewise, pet "abuse" by soloing rieves could be prevented by having monsters link to roots/lairs. It'd suck for the people who solo rieves at the moment, granted, but I'm not convinced that it's not unintended exploitation anyway and it'd be nice for everyone else.
I think we are miscommunicating on your third point. Of course, meleeing and healing in addition to using an avatar is more beneficial than not doing so. However, meleeing and healing are the only significant source of rewards for summoners, and we aren't very good at either. If I was just to stand back and have an avatar deal damage and enhance with wards, I should recieve the same reward as someone else dealing the same damage and performing the same enhancements. Currently I do not. I think, in fact, your comment is the one that indicates that others should benefit more than me for the same contribution - a non-pet job may do the same things as I do, but I recieve nothing for it. My primary tool for doing anything is being completely ignored.
Of course I recognise that balancing 22 jobs will be difficult, but it is SE's job to make sure that it's done. It's not difficult to devise solutions to issues - I've suggested one for "bard bot" in campaign and one for pet jobs, and I'm neither a developer nor did I spent more than 5 minutes devising those solutions. I would argue that they have a responsibility to make sure that all jobs can contribute in the manner in which they are intended to function, regardless of how difficult that may be. -
04-20-2013, 04:21 AMAlhanelemThey are, the point of using Wards is to improve your own capability + that of those around you, as Wards affect all players in range in a rieve.Quote:
I must admit I gave up on SMN pretty quickly in reives (partly because it was so dreadful and partly because I got sick of enmity issues elsewhere) so I don't recall if using lots of wards is rewarded well, but judging by Campaign (and other "contribution-relative reward" systems) and a rep comment a few days ago mentioning that reives were specifically set up to prevent the "bard bot" problem you mention, I suspect the rewards for enhancing in particular are very substandard.
Yes, avatars are the foundation of SMN, but there is absolutely no reason, as I've stated multiple times, not to melee in a rieve. You say you're fragile, and yes, that's true, but avoiding being in the range of some monster's AoE, especially when you're trying to damage the roots, is basically impossible. You are in harms way anyway, so there's no reason not to do it.Quote:
Pets are the foundation of SMN. As a summoner I'm fragile, I'm not built for meleeing, and my selection of equipment is limited. There's also the argument that if I wanted to get seriously into melee I wouldn't be there as SMN. A loose comparison might be an avatar to a MNK's hand-to-hand weapon - yes, I can punch (melee) things with a degree of success, but without my hand-to-hand weapon (avatar) I'm really losing out. If a MNK's bonuses from their weapon were ignored in rieves, there would be uproar. I would never claim that meleeing isn't possible during rieves for SMN - it certainly is - but it's not why I'm there as a SMN and it's not what I'm good at, so it should not be required if I am to recieve any benefit.
Actually, you should get slightly less, because there are simultaneous actions you could be performing that would further increase your score. if BPs alone gave you the same contribution score as everyone else, meleeing would mean you could get MORE than everyone else- causing there to again, be no reason not to do it.Quote:
I think we are miscommunicating on your third point. Of course, meleeing and healing in addition to using an avatar is more beneficial than not doing so. However, meleeing and healing are the only significant source of rewards for summoners, and we aren't very good at either. If I was just to stand back and have an avatar deal damage and enhance with wards, I should recieve the same reward as someone else dealing the same damage and performing the same enhancements. Currently I do not. I think, in fact, your comment is the one that indicates that others should benefit more than me for the same contribution - a non-pet job may do the same things as I do, but I recieve nothing for it. My primary tool for doing anything is being completely ignored.
I'm not saying pet actions SHOULD contribute nothing- not at all - however I also understand the problems SE is trying to avoid, and they are not easy to solve.
All I was trying to say from the beginning is that if you're willing to think outside the box a bit, Summoner can still get decent bayld from rieves. -
04-20-2013, 04:57 AMJerbob
I do realise that wards are important and valuable in terms of the bonuses people recieve, but from a strictly objective perspective, if I'm doing my job as an AoE enhancer then I should benefit from it. If I don't, then using my time and resources on wards which grant me no reward is pointless. In the same vein, I wouldn't expect a melee job to use Wasp Sting to open skillchains for me, granting me extra rewards at their detriment. A more extreme example, but a congruent one nonetheless I think. I would like to stress that I will glady do things in reives to help others that give me little or no reward, but the point is that the contribution should be rewarded - or it shouldn't be expected.
I have never disagreed with you that meleeing is a good thing. If a SMN can and does do it, that's great and I fully agree with you that they should be rewarded extra for contributing more. I simply take issue with meleeing being their primary (or one of their primary) means of gaining rewards, especially when their relative lack of capability in that area (and others) means they can't gain sufficient rewards to make up for their completely ignored contributions (the avatar). I also strongly believe that my primary means of gaining rewards should be the primary strength(s) or function(s) of my job. Overall, I'm not expecting a perfectly synced up level of reward between all jobs, so slight differences don't worry me that much. It's the extreme cases that worry me. As long as everything is in the general region of being equal then I have far fewer issues.
I think the problems can (and therefore should) be solved. I believe it's SE's responsibility to come up with good solutions for potential exploits, and it's certainly not impossibe - we've all contributed ideas. Tweaking monster behaviour, making rewards conditional (such as needing to attack vines/lairs to gain rewards from monsters, as they have done) and having more complex rules for rewards (eg. requiring "damage taken" and "HP cured to self" events to both occur for self-healing to gain rewards, preventing curekit bot style behaviour) are all possibilities. If SE really has serious issues with potential exploits and is using that to justify bad rewards for lots of jobs / playstyles (which I'm not convinced about - they've demonstrated a clear inability to balance "contribution >> reward" systems before) then they need to fix those exploits in the system instead of taking the easy route and blocking the jobs or job functions that can potentially exploit those problems.
Thinking outside the box is generally a positive thing, but consider a scenario where all contributions were ignored apart from healing magic. Would every DD in the game be happy using /RDM, disengaging from battle and spamming Cure IV on each other? It's an outside-the-box approach to getting rewards on DD jobs, but I suspect it would not be appreciated. FFXI's job variety is a wonderful thing, and we should be able to enjoy it at every opportunity - and that means focusing on each job's uniqueness, not having arbitrary restrictions and requirements that punish us for using all the tools at our disposal.
Perhaps I'm just being too idealistic. -
04-20-2013, 08:33 PMThundarian
Hi. I hate to inform you, but you are doing it wrong.
Firstly, do you have the appropriate KI's for the reives that you are doing? IE Woodcrafting, etc?
Second, do you have reive unity yet? I have seen a lot of people doing them without this KI, and it is absurd to not have it for what it gives.
I only play summoner at the moment, and am capable of getting 1-4k bayld per reive depending on how the reive goes etc. A majority of my contribution comes from healing / status effect removal / buffing, with a smattering of damage thrown in. Carbuncle tends to be one of the better full time pets for reive's with a large number of buffs to cycle through and the best heal you have avaliable.
Damage is nice to have, and it doesn't hurt to have your pet sitting on a root and using a blood pact rage every once in a while, but my bread and butter is healing / support. Also, grab the reive staff if you don't have something equivilant, the +MAB to pets in reive's makes a noticable difference in damage output. -
04-20-2013, 10:30 PMRavenmoreI don't either since I just got 1.5k walking into a roots reive that about half way done. I stay mostly on the mobs and only go over to the root to use MP drain kiss. Mobs are easier to cap damage out on and taking damage helps to. I use a -pdt set and /rdm to keep damage low and I don't use occult unless I have more then one mob on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makenshi
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04-20-2013, 10:35 PMCaketimeBalancing to ensure that all 22 jobs can earn approximately the same amount baased on contribution seems to be escaping the devs as well. Personally I find it annoying that I can't go and do Reives on WHM and support if I'm expecting decent Bayld per Reive, I'm forced to either wear melee gear and drop my spell potency, or just stand in the corner slinging spells and deal with the small amount of Bayld per Reive. Of course, I can just be a jerk and give out no buffs, focusing solely on melee. Lots of Bayld that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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04-21-2013, 12:41 AMLuvbunny
I think they should double the rewards when you cast cure on your fellow players. Though reive unity sometimes refill everyone HP and then what are whms suppose to do? I mean, let's face it, reive is a big total joke, just let everyone get lots of bayld doing spammable spells - or just make it easier - it's going to die within 6 months anyway - then no progress will be made and in a year, all the returning players will find it impossible to progress in SoA quests + areas....
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04-21-2013, 04:23 AMDemon6324236I'm getting really fkin tired of your 'the world is ending!' attitude, the expansion has been out for less than a month, shut the hell up, offer some feedback that isn't insultingly pessimistic, and wait till its been out a bit longer, if in 2~3 months it is still not to your liking, then complain, till then, sit down, suck it up, play the content, and offer feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbunny