[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

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Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

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An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

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Procs don't change that. When some otehr job is needed for a proc, they run in, do their proc, and run out. I don't know which planet you live on, but if a PUP or SMN or <insert other lesser used job here> comes to voidwatch, I can assure you, proccing is about all they contribute to the fight.

Even with the proc system, people only field the best jobs. It really didn't change as much as you think it does.

Abysea: WAR/NIN can do basically all weapon procs. Magic: BRDs are not lesser used, WHMs are not lesser used. BLMs are not used for everything but do still get their share of playtime. Nothing has really changed here.

Voidwatch: The top tier jobs are used primarily. A handful of other jobs are brought in to get more procs, but some jobs still get left out and many of the jobs that don't are there only to activate proc and not contribtue to the fight in any other meaningful way.

Dynamis: Best example of paring down top tier job use, but most people just target the monsters that they can proc with what they have and avoid proccing the ones they can't whenever possible.

The proc system has NOT had a lot of impact on job diversity, and I will be glad to see new events not have it. It is an annoying hassle whose only true purpose is to slow down fights.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Like it or not, procs are good for XI when used only as a way of stunning the enemy. I don't care for the temp item dumps or crucial procs that make or break fights/loot spread but to say that procs are bad in a large scale event is silly when XI is swimming in jobs that just cant catch a break at endgame.

The event can be tough and still have a way of encouraging job variety.

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Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

Personally, I have a shell that can still easily field 18+ extremely competent players at an event assuming people actually have something to do and a motivation to do it. I know of at least a half dozen other shells on my server that can do the same.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

Personally, I have a shell that can still easily field 18+ extremely competent players at an event assuming people actually have something to do and a motivation to do it. I know of at least a half dozen other shells on my server that can do the same.

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Same reason VW is shout groups for the most part.

I prefer the shout group style over a large shell. There are always numerous VW shouts in Jeuno, you can pick one that fits your needs. It also allows you to ignore the shouts and do whatever else you wanted to do. LSs have events and scheduled times which is a big difference.

I'll be leading shout alliances for this, hope you join some :)

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

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Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Procs don't change that. When some otehr job is needed for a proc, they run in, do their proc, and run out. I don't know which planet you live on, but if a PUP or SMN or <insert other lesser used job here> comes to voidwatch, I can assure you, proccing is about all they contribute to the fight.

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Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

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We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

I don't get why you consider the trade-off of fun for variety a win. Disregarding the fact that it's still forced, although maybe to a lesser extent, what do those jobs do? If someone wants to play a job, say PUP, do they actually want to play it, or spam all of their abilities? I don't even consider that "playing" anymore. And I can't see how it's better than the other way around.

As usual though, the problem is and remains only with pick up groups or asocial "strictly business" LS. If you play with friends (or any kind of random social LS) instead of people who just wanna go for the maximum number of drops per minute, you shouldn't have many problems being on the job you want. At 75 you could come as any job to any event if the people you were playing with weren't being dicks about it, it's the same now and it'll be this way for any event in the future.

So you don't consider the ability to show up on a less ideal job (especially if you only have said classes) more ideal an endgame than the old regimented system where you had only roughly half the classes in participation for most of endgame? For some people using ideal classes, rushing down content and claiming as much loot as possible is fun and for those people a system of light proccing does nothing for them but speed up the process.

You hit some procs? Good. You don't? Who cares, you're probably skilled enough to only hit those that happen to match your ideal setup or ignore them altogether.

For others, job variety and the experience is fun. The problem is you don't get job variety amongst the mainstream PUG base (most of FFXI these days) unless SE goes out of the way to make it ideal to do so. Doesn't have to be overkill like Abyssea or Voidwatch but anything that can possibly make a battle easier will most certainly lead to people taking certain jobs into consideration that would be normally seen as mediocre or worthless.

This is good because it makes the game more inclusive.

Dunno about the status of other servers but since Abyssea and the march towards small-scale content, most HNMLS on Lakshmi are remnants of their former selves and exist pretty much to chat, pass time and get some people you know to join PUG runs to fill in the cracks. Maybe on some other servers people are still rolling 40+ man shells rearing to smash Dynamis or something but the game is largely PUGs, solo/multi-box and the rare LS runs now.

I wouldn't mind large scale LS events as much if SE gave us more LS tools. I would join a pug for this. Not much reason not to. Starting one might be less attractive but its only 360k , people are spending more then that on VWNM right now with pugs. If you can go everyday or as many times you want I could see this becoming a pug event.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

This is good because it makes the game more inclusive.

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Again, why is forced inclusion good? It's basically the same thing. Only instead of requiring x SAM and y WAR, it requires one of each. It's still forced.

"Can I come PUP?"
"We already have a PUP, we need a COR."
"I don't have COR."
"Get lost."

As I said, I know it's not quite that bad, since with many people having lots of jobs leveled it's easier to get what you need with less compromising, but it still shows everywhere. Will they ever let you come on your non-Ukon WAR when there's already a Ukon WAR available? And if you're a Ukon WAR, do you think they'll want you to come on BLU instead?

As I said, it only really depends on who you play with. Inclusion isn't always good. And "not inclusion" doesn't equal "exclusion", because while jobs don't have to be present in Einherjar, they can. A PUP isn't required, but it won't hurt anyone either. The balance between inclusion and exclusion is freedom. And that shouldn't be limited by gameplay, like it is with a proc system. Prior to that it was only limited by the community. If you're playing with jerks, you get treated badly. If you're playing with friends, you get treated nicely. Personally I don't see a problem with that at all.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Dunno about the status of other servers but since Abyssea and the march towards small-scale content, most HNMLS on Lakshmi are remnants of their former selves and exist pretty much to chat, pass time and get some people you know to join PUG runs to fill in the cracks. Maybe on some other servers people are still rolling 40+ man shells rearing to smash Dynamis or something but the game is largely PUGs, solo/multi-box and the rare LS runs now.

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The reason LS events don't happen as much is not because the community changed (possibly it contributed a little, but I don't see it being much), but mostly because the game changed. The only thing that was different was that lowmanning got easier. That's the only reason why people started doing it. That's the reason why old LS broke or thinned out, because why should you kill an NM 10 times with 18 people, when you can kill it almost exactly as fast with three people and not share all the drops?

And this is now speculation on my part, but I'm pretty sure that when LS content is being offered again, it will also be done as such again. This event may be the evidence for that, we'll see.

Also, again our experiences seem to differ gravely, but pretty much everyone I know wants LS content back. We started doing many events as a LS recently again, mostly just for fun, because that's what it is, compared to just grinding hordes of mobs with small groups or do repetitive fights with people you don't know in VW pick up groups. I don't know anyone who likes that, and many people will appreciate something like this again.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.



Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.



We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

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I know you don't like big LS's and such, but I'm not sure what game you've been playing. We've never ~ever~ told a DRG, DRK, RNG, or ~insert any job here~ to stand "in the back" while SAM and WAR goes to town. They'll field as many DD's as they have, and considering how many players have left shells in the last year+ I doubt they'll be picky about who they bring. The order will simply be "come on your best geared melee job" and that's it. Only absolute twats would tell someone to change off their better geared DRG / DRK / ect. to their lower geared SAM / WAR.