Hvergelmir WTF SE

SE has Trial of the Magians before them and they could easily start Hvergelmir as the current weapon we have at 90 and branch it to suit the melee mage crowd AND the traditional backliner.

Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages mostly don't care to melee or because Empyreans were created solely to enhance melee statistics and not the classes that wield them.

Gambateinn also falls into the same category as Hvergelmir in my opinion.

Inb4 Mythics.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages mostly don't care to melee or because Empyreans were created solely to enhance melee statistics and not the classes that wield them.

Gambateinn also falls into the same category as Hvergelmir in my opinion.

Inb4 Mythics.

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The really awesome thing is that the Black Mage and Scholar mythic weapons were worse than elemental staffs at 75, and remain worse than the current top-of-the-line-magic-damage-sticks at present. Even when somebody gets the right general idea, somebody else drops the ball when it comes time to implement that idea.

Please stop putting the mythic staves in the same breath as relic and empyrean. They are completely different in purpose.

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Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages

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They do understand mages. These are niche weapons not meant for everyone. That being said, especiially with hvergelmir you can take advantage of its benefits without ever meleeing by using TP wings- its like having another extra big ether + remedy in your pocket.

If SCH/BLM had a trait to keep TP when switching weapons, then it would actually be really awesome for them because they can generate TP with nukes. That's a pipe dream of course.

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How many times have you died to AoE spam? How many times could you have not died from AoE spam if you were not out there whacking on the mob?

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For me personally, and for any other non-dallas on the planet, very rarely. Most people are smart enough to know when being within X range of an enemy is too dangerous to risk. However, there are also ways to reduce that risk, such as earthen armor.

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If your only jobs are SMN, BLM, and SCH, then having a Hvergelmir is not a wasted emp

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Please don't unilaterally declare someone's efforts to be "wasted." If they wanted it and worked for it, then it was not a waste. Besides, 2 of the 3 emp trials don't even compete with another emp weapon at all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Please stop putting the mythic staves in the same breath as relic and empyrean. They are completely different in purpose.

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Why wouldn't anyone compare them? All of these weapons are considered so powerful that they have time consuming and patience-testing requirements to obtain.

So I go through the motions and obtain a Hvergelmir for my BLM and what do I get?

-120 MP (that i'll lose the second I swap to a real nuking weapon)
-a WS that requires me to get TP (something BLM is terrible at)
-ODD tied not to magic, long range play or anything BLM excels in but to the WS that again requires me to melee on the class has intentionally been designed to suck at melee.

Seems like a great deal. You get nothing and sacrifice man hours for a weapon that does nothing for your class. Man, why isn't every weapon so amazing?

Laevateinn is supposed to be the "casting" weapon yet it too falls before the various elemental magians, has a weaponskill attached (because BLMs melee) to trip the aftermaths instead of MAGIC because you know, BLMs dont use MAGIC.

The whole thing is a wash. When the strongest arguments for these weapons is solo, you've already defeated yourself.

Let's compare these rubbish weapons to Death Penalty for COR - a class often cited as having the lowest playing population.

You get access to "Leaden Salute" which solved a problem Corsair had regarding hitting targets consistently with a weaponskill, you get access to Quick Draw boosts (a key component of Corsair) and the aftermaths increase the ranged presence of the class through boosts to accuracy, attack and finally double/triple damage.

By no means is Death Penalty the best designed weapon for Corsair as Wildfire has stolen much of Leadens thunder and the aftermaths are moot now COR is encouraged to spend more time rolling with QDs in between but at least the weapon enhances the strengths of the class which is what you'd expect of such a weapon.

Hvergelmir does nothing for the classes attached short of increase MP restoral ability which was moot in Abyssea and will also be moot in at Voidwatch if you build parties properly. While I will admit that Nirvana has boosts relevant to SMNs interests, that is merely 1/3 on viable stave mythics.

And in one bloody brilliant example sparthos sums it up. Now that the truth has been said can we quit blethering about things that are painfully obvious? Like magian staffs ect being worthless and useless

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Originally Posted by Winrie

And in one bloody brilliant example sparthos sums it up. Now that the truth has been said can we quit blethering about things that are painfully obvious? Like magian staffs ect being worthless and useless

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Uhhh, what?

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-a WS that requires me to get TP (something BLM is terrible at)

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It's called a TP wing. Use it.

We've already established that summoner can more easily make use of it than the other two jobs, but just because it doesn't serve the purpose you want doesn't mean it has no use to anybody. If you want a staff that gives magic attack bonus or perp cost, there's a super staff that does that- the mythic. The point with the statement you quoted is unlike the other weapons the mythic is greatly different from the relic and empyrean. Regardless, these weapons are not obtainable by everyone and thus do not need to suit everyone's purposes.

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enhances the strengths of the clas

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These weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class." Once you get over that fact, these weapons should be more acceptable to you. Empyreans were built to be among the strongest weapon weapons in their weapon class (which the staff achieves- it is the strongest staff weapon in the game- not the strongest stat booster staff, the strongest weapon staff). Nothing more. If they were designed to enhance the strengths of the jobs, there would be 20 of them, one for each job, with job specific effects on them. Oh wait, those already exist, those are the mythics.

(One thing I would have done differently in designing the weapon system itself is have the DMG: rating on mage weapons affect their magic. I honestly have no idea why they didn't do something like that. It would have solved this sort of problem by making a high DMG: weapon for a mage really more betterer)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's called a TP wing. Use it.

We've already established that summoner can more easily make use of it than the other two jobs, but just because it doesn't serve the purpose you want doesn't mean it has no use to anybody. If you want a staff that gives magic attack bonus or perp cost, there's a super staff that does that- the mythic. The point with the statement you quoted is unlike the other weapons the mythic is greatly different from the relic and empyrean. Regardless, these weapons are not obtainable by everyone and thus do not need to suit everyone's purposes.

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You're really grasping at straws on this one.

Why do you use a TP wing? Because you can't get TP on anything that matters to trip the aftermaths good sir. Thanks for proving that the weapons don't even function properly without outside items.

Why is this though? Because neither SMN BLM or SCH are good melee and rightfully so as they excel in other fields of play. Mage weapons should always focus on improving the mages strengths and not lazily copy/pasting the format of melee weapons which what painfully happened with Relics and Empyreans.

I congratulate you on making the best of a hopeless situation however.

Empyreans are attainable by most people who attempt them and unlike melee weapons the mage weapons are completely impractical outside solo or beating up on Easy Preys.

While the melee (or BRD) gets something that takes them from good to great, mages are stuck with weapons that do nothing for them in a party setting.

Why do you keep bringing up mythics? Did I not just explain that the mythics for BLM and SCH which are supposed to be magic oriented also fail compared to easily acquired magian staves?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

These weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class."

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I guess Daurdabla just happens to make BRD a more versatile buffer, Ochain happens to make PLD more resistant to physical attacks, Armageddon just happens to to improve Corsairs magical presence, Gandiva just happens to solve an issue Ranger had with a one hit wonder WS and Almace just happens to solve an issue with PLD needing a solid WS to hold hate with.

Like it or not, Empyreans have done more for enhancing the strengths of certain classes than the so-called Mythics have.

It's pretty obvious. SE wanted to create weapons that were comparable to relics in power but could be made in a fraction of the time. In a lazy display of disregard for how mages operate, the empyreans were just copied and pasted to be just like the previous relics with weaponskills that trip aftermaths.

A true Hvergelmir would be something like this:

Hvergelmir
DMG: 98 Delay: 390 INT+15
"Ultima"
Aftermath: Occasionally deals double damage (inc. avatars)
Lv. 90 BLM SMN SCH

You'd now have a magic oriented weapon tied to a spell that then trips an aftermath that allows mages to deal double damage with spells or avatars for a limited time. Said staff is still the second strongest melee weapon.

Further, lets modify the WHM club shall we?

Gambanteinn
(Club) All Races
DMG: 78 Delay: 300 HP +70 MP +70
"Curaja"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage (inc. cures)
Lv. 90 WHM

Tada. You still have the second strongest club now tied to a cure spell that triggers the ability to deal double damage while also occasionally doubling cure results like any self-respecting WHM would be interested in.

I'll take my check from Square-Enix Ltd please. It can be written out to:

Sparthosx
9828 West Bastok Lane, Mog House C7
South Quon, Vana'diel 00932

First SE was pretty clear what this staff did there are no hidden effect or anything so honestly i don't think these staffs need a boost.

As for is it useful for the jobs that can use it .... yes

Outside of abyssea

SCH With this staff and use of stragems 1/2mp with af3+2 and sublimation you pretty much will never run out of mp and for Voidwatch atm this is awsome for going through ya spells for Staggers.

BLM... I dunno

SMN
People that acully play SMN do play it solo and by meleeing this staff basically makes that impossible to guage

Inside Abyssea

Sea Daughter + this staff = 20mp+ a tick (better than 3 atmas) for SMN thats amazing for SCH and BLM not so much

Either way the fact it has some unique uses and SE were really clear with what it did means you shouldn't be complaing.

As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.