Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.

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1) So what if it has a 10 minute recharge? You asked if anything can get you back 1200 mp without using ethers and I responded as such.
2) So what, you can't get any more when the fight is over? You can't get any from the NMs that die? Potions are not rare.
3) It seems to me that it has to be a requirement to have 300% TP to get a good amount of MP back. But then again, I haven't even looked into the WS, so I really don't care. You asked for an instant 1200 MP, I gave you one.
4) I won't deny you that you can get more MP back than I would, but I don't need 1200 MP every 3 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You do NOT lose out on the ability to buff properly and support anyone. IT HELPS YOU! YOU ARE CLOSE TO EVERYONE, THEREFORE YOUR BUFFS WILL HIT EVERYONE! the whole point of Favor was an excuse to keep the avatar summoned. This synergizes perfectly with that! Your Blood Pact Wards will help everyone too, and do not hurt your damage as job abilities are quick. It's not a sidegrade. It's an improvement.

You're only saving "240 MP a minute" over a naked summoner. Everyone has some perp and refresh, so really, it will take you even longer.

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Why are you nitpicking over "My style gives more MP than your style" both styles give more MP than you can use EVER. It's a distinction WITHOUT a difference.

Again MP is a NON-ISSUE for either style please drop it so other aspects can be dealt with. Here's why with Garuda out I save(and I'm not saying this is all over a lolmelee) 240MP a minute gain 40MP too

This is 280MP a minute

over a 5 minute period I get

1400MP from perp/refresh set
204 for sublimation
490ish from Elemental Siphon

Thats 2094MP every 5 minutes.

I'm not saying this to point out how much more MP I get back over melee I'm sure it makes more MP. But this is more than a good SMN could use in a 5 minute period so MP management is not a reason to melee.

Favor is weak as hell only time I use it is with Carbuncle if I'm a healer. Ok cycle 4+ buff on your group and let me know how well you melee. Yeah I get that favor will hit everyone, But here's the dirty little secret you don't need to be there too so that's not a benefit inherent to SMN melee. Favor buffs are terrible they really are evasion up that resets every BP it's a non point. PLease be realistic in your claims I've said time and again yes SMN melee will do more damage personally BUT SMN support/DD will make the party do more damage and run smoother so yes it is a side grade.

I just realized this thread is about a guy defending Empyrean staff staying the same over it being changed into something useful, because he wants to melee on SMN.

Alhanelem, really? Nobody is being "Elitist" here, you really do sound like a raving lunatic. You want to melee because... something? I don't know, you claim you can deal some sort of melee damage, which you say outweighs the benefits of having a SMN play a support role in a party? I think? You've flip flopped on shit so much, it's hard to keep track. Anyways, your whole melee thing requires you to use melee Atma, so you lose out on MAB related Avatar damage.

I'm willing to bet you that SMN/BLM spamming tier II spells (with proper staves) and using MAB related Avatars will out damage your Hvergelmir swinging ass.

Also, what do you do with all that MP you get back from Myrkr? Oh right, nothing. Good job.

First off I wasn't planning to get involved with this hypocritic argument... I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts, starting over at ffxiclopedia. BG bans posters for "random" questions. How about the thread you locked simply because you felt the impending discussion was irrelevant?

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=23249 and
http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=23270

Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."

Not that I arguing anything for spirits. Just stating how spirits are as "useless" in YOUR eyes as melee smn is useless in OTHER's eyes.

As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs. As others have said x-hit builds for smn and staff are very hard to manage effectively. Aside from that, playing a tank job myself sometimes, I hate excess tp-feeding even if it does end up killing the nm 1 min quicker. Of which the normal way smn is played that isn't an issue because BPs don't give tp. However with the melee method you're constantly giving about 13tp(with hver) a swing to the mob seeing as what little gear with subtle blow that smn has isn't being used cause of gearing haste/acc.

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inb4 it's not about efficiency

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Well, it IS about efficency; and you won't win a cure contest against a WHM, but it's not like summoners have never been asked to fill that role...

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Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?

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Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.

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We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job.

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We will always perform better on the jobs we favor. That's not to say you can't "master" them all, but if I get a summoner, I would rather it be one that's dedicated themselves to the job than any old person that just leveled it to 90 in a week on a whim. The same goes for most jobs. The people who focus on a few tend to handle their jobs better than the ones that level everything, and that remains true today.

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I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts,

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I just love how you baselessly slander me, because I have not contradicted myself.

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Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."

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This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.

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As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs.

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They do not need reworking. For one, the Mythic weapons are already centered around the abilities of the jobs that weild them. For two, the relic and empyrean staves are special purpose weapons, designed for certain people who want to make use of what they can offer. They are not inferior, just different. If you don't want the relic or empyrean staff because of your views on the relevant jobs, that's your choice. The people who want weapons of this type should not be denied them.

No one's saying that it's not an incremental damage increase over what Smn is normally capable of.

Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.

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It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/support
backline= lower damage better/more buffs and support

By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN.

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Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.

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You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's an improvement. It will still be an improvement even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.

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It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/support

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And like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.

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By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN.

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It does not create more problems. Buffing is not impacted. Curing specifically is a little more difficult, but that's only a problem if you specifically came to do that and are not doing it. That said, having your weapon drawn does not decrease the effectiveness of your spells, only the amount of damage you're able to inflict because you're stopping to cast magic (which is a problem for RDM too)

Play for fun, no one cares, just don't say your method is better than, well, a more efficient method. Smn isn't going to be asked to melee on anything that isn't weak crap when they can maintain mp while being out of danger and not being a liability to resources, and still providing backup healing/support.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances. It will still be a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.

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fixed for accuracy