Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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As it is, you can't melee because your avatar's weak melee hits have to be able to pull hate off you after it dies, unless you go SMN/NIN (which I've done).

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Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

edit: Also, @ haste: hastega is equally effective to the spell, and hastega lasts longer than the spell. This takes a huge load off a white mage, and the best part about this is it's on Garuda, which is the avatar of choice for melee strategy. So everyone gets their haste and everyone is happy. Hastega is easily the best general-purpose buff in the SMN aresenal. Earthen Armor is also great and one of the cited useful functions on the job, but it is more of a niche ability that's only useful in certain cases.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

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You solo hard stuff, your avatar tanks, and your avatar never dies? Teach me your secrets, master.

For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

And herein lies the problem. SMN is a horrible healer. It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already). That leaves its only real potentially decent role as DD'ing.

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I've yet to find myself a subpar buffer or a horrible healer, and I actually find myself able to buff a party use BPs for damage and be ready to support the party ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Can I match a specialist in any one of these roles? No but I can do more in a party at once than any other job.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Convert has a 10 minute recast. Sorry, try again.

Convert isn't any faster than other sources of refresh overall, especailly when you consider the MP you spend recovering your HP. Let's say you have 1200 HP (Assuming you have more MP than HP). Convert gives you about 6MP/tick when you break it down.

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Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?

I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument.

Besides, you must not have read the rest of the paragraph after that one little sentence. SMNs can ride out convert timers without having to desummon their avatar or melee for mp back.

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For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion.

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I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.

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Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?

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Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.

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I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument.

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I'm not taking a dallas approach. I put the requisite thought into this and I'm not just spurting extreme statements with no basis. The proof is in the pudding.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I don't know, I think it will be kindof hard for 1 WHM to haste everyone in the alliance. Even 2 WHMs would be hard pressed.

Having a SMN in the party that does not have a WHM there would be a long way into making sure everyone in that alliance is buffed. Although they would be losing on Pro/Shell V, but they get Earthen Ward, Hastaga, and other buffs.

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Unless that SMN is healing everyone in the alliance at the same time too, each party is going to have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves and the <=5 other people who need it. Honestly, I'd take Shell V over Earthen Ward any day =/

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have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves

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I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Also, it's a little bit of a stretch to refer to yourself as one of the best soloists. You guys bore things to death and try desperately not to die. For solo kill speed, there are many better and more efficient options in a lot of situations. You're the best soloer in the same situation where you're the best source of damage, where you can't be in range (like WotG final fight).

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I will admit that SMNs won't win in killspeed, but you have to admit that there are a lot of NMs there that would kill a BST or PUP, have high damaging AoE moves that goes thru shadows so a NIN or DNC can't solo it, and requires some strategy to kill solo. The Ironclad from Grauberg comes to mind. That Chariot that completes a Raja popset is another one that would be a very hard solo with anything but SMN.

Like I said, there are some things that a SMN can do, and do well, and soloist is one of them. We can kill more NMs than other jobs solo because of our ability to swap pets very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

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Hastega may be more mp efficient, but it's not saving you any time or MP or actual efficiency because you're not replacing a Whm or Rdm with a Smn.

You gain Hastega efficiency when you replace something else with a SMN. What are you replacing? Probably a DD. Unless that Hastega efficiency (which really only affects SMN's MP, as a WHM or RDM can fulltime haste on the pt regardless) is more relevant than the loss of efficiency going from anything-not-SMN to SMN as a DD, then you are still losing efficiency using Hastega.

inb4 it's not about efficiency

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.

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I dunno, he just seemed like a very easy low-tier NM that I knew Summoners had soloed. I've soloed him on BST, DNC, and a few times on BLM/BRD when I was going for seals. Are there any seal NMs that melee soloing is viable on?

Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?

Are there any fights with a reasonable amount of support where it makes sense to have a meleeing summoner instead of another job, outside the 3-5 cases I listed earlier

Edit: Keep in mind that it's 2011. We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job. It takes about a week to get a job from 30 to 90 for the average player with a few friends. Merits, skilling up, gear, etc. I'd give it a month to have the job up to average. It isn't like 2006, where DRG sucking against Fafnir prevented dragoons from getting N.head. Now using an appropriate job is as easy as walking to the mog house.