Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Because it's the nature of the progressive MMO, which outside of sandbox style MMOs such as Ultima Online and Second Life, is most MMO's on the market, FFXI included.

In order to create bigger and better challenges, bigger and better monsters need to be created, which needs bigger and better gear to handle.

This means that old gear that was suited for old content will be made obsolete, just as old content is more or less made obsolete. That includes the most powerful weapons of its time.

Sure, RMECs can be updated to match, but truth be told, it only would postpone the inevitable. The next time that there would be an update, it would make the RMECs obsolete again, and we would have this argument again.

It's the nature of MMOs, and complaining about it does no favor to the dev team of FFXI. It's like complaining that water is wet, or that gravity exists, and wanting someone to do something about it.

With that said, I find it funny that people are comparing this game to a job Protip, guys: If playing a game feels more like a job than fun, stop playing.

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I thought we were talking about FFXI.... what I miss?... as you were explained in DETAIL by Alerith, and as Square - Enix themselves have repeatedly confirmed via update after update and expansion after expansion (prior to the most recent expansion of course)... the "Ultimate weapons" for FFXI were exempt from your assessment.

If FFXI fell into the old cheese mold of "MMO's on the market" then Square - Enix would not have repeatedly updated the Magian Trials to continue to strengthen the Ultimate Weapons, that they themselves have recognized as weapons that require a significant time sink and financial in-game investment to procure.

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Originally Posted by Godofgods

I can agree with the doing old content part. But they said they were going to be making certain content extremely hard to the point where players would need such high end armor and weapons to be able to complete it. - Also keep in mind that this stuff just came out. You know there will be adjustments to both equipment and content. So give them some time to see how it plays out before ppl start damming them to hell'

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That's true. People probably should wait, but I think since they dropped those weapons in the .dats, the damage is somewhat already done. That's what I believe is of poor design in that they know people search .dats, so they should have approached the topic a lot more carefully than trying to passively say, "We don't want to do any work."

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

It's not inflation either. Your 20 euros can still buy you 20 burgers just like your relic weapon can still do everything it used to do. It still kills Tiamat just as fast as it used to.

Inflation would be if the whole game got harder.

Edit: I should mention that I can see where people are coming from on this issue. However, putting myself in your shoes, I still would not be upset. It's just my outlook on the game that it's fine if they move away from RMEs.

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Problem is the old R/E/M will not be able to keep up in the new content moving forward. So using the euros analogy, your old job will keep you in the old run down neighborhood which everyone moved out of, and you can no longer afford to move unless you quit your old job and get the new job paying twice as much. The biggest problem people are having is they don't want to quit there old job, we all know we CAN, but we don't want to. So yes we are demanding our old job gives us a raise, since we don't want to live in the old run down neighborhoods, since there is a new job out there which pays twice as much and you only have to work 1 day a week.

If I missed a post similar to this I'm sorry. I wanted to add some constructive ideas instead of complaints. Here is my solution:

1) All R/M/E can be etched with 1 evolith spot

2) All new weapons obtained in SoA can be 'melted' down to a Rare/Ex evolith that will modify the inscribed weapon to the DMG: and Delay: values of the melted weapon. Stats, weapon skills, hidden effects, etc of the base R/M/E are maintained.

3) Since E 95 and 99 weapons are a lot of effort for only +3/2 more of the stat modifier either:
a) Add a +5/10% associated weapon skill modifier similar to R/M weapons at 95/99
or
b) Increase the aftermath by time or proc % for 95/99 weapons

It seems simple enough for me. Players have to continually play new content and obtain the new weapons to keep their R/M/E up to par. R/M/E do not go to waste, it may not be the best weapon, even upgraded this way, but it's never useless.

Twastar 85 is a great example: Izhiikoh -> Evolith (DMG:108 Delay:200) -> Twastar(85) yields
Twastar: DMG:108 Delay:200 Dex+10, "Rudras Storm" and aftermath
~vs~
Izhiikoh: DMG:108 Delay:200 DEX+15 Accuracy+29 Attack+25 "Triple Attack"+2%

It becomes clearly a choice for the player on how to use their weapon and for what. Evoliths uses an already programmed game mechanic, no new system required for producers. Gives credence to old content and effort while not forcing these weapons to be the end all. Casual players can now play alongside R/M/E holders and have fun with great new weapons. R/M/E become a stat variation is all. Please tell me if you think this idea is decent.

I am just over it, started doing seekers content (kinda fun to be honest). The delve NMs remind me of the good ol HNM day strats. If my 99 relic go to crap oh'well. I really hope they do not however. I am 10 year player and will just die out with the game. FFXIV maybe.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Actually, you're still getting your 20 euros an hour.

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Except that that $20 is no longer worth as much due to inflation. six of one half a dozen of the other.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

RMEs still do everything they used to do. Amanomurokumo is still every bit as good at stabbing dragons as it used to be, it has not been nerfed down 1/16 power, so your pay has not been nerfed down to 1/16 its purchasing power.

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Raising monster strength, or lowering DPS both have the same effect. If you have a weapon that does half as much damage as someone else, You are no longer as effective. It's the exact same thing in practice and you know it. Quit playing dumb.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

What has happened here is a much easier job just opened up, and it pays 40 euros per hour. But instead of taking that job the first chance they get, people are complaining about how hard their old job was. They don't want some new fangled job, they want their old job and a raise.

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No sir, they want tenure and You want to stir up crap. In the future I would appreciate if you could at least make this interesting. Try using memes or something.

On a related note: I am not planning on canceling, but I will probably let my account lapse until they sort this out. Seems pointless working on anything until they figure out what they are going to do.

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Originally Posted by hiko

I don't see why you no longer have fun doing the content you had fun one week ago.
Does it really matter that the digit written on other people virtual goods are higher than on yours?
if you enjoy playing the game, no it doesn't, keep enjoying the game trying to get em.
if you didn't enjoy playing the game , wtf were you playing this game?

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I know this is like 8 Pages back but, I wanted to answer your question, cause while its illinformed, its a good question to have the answer too. Basically, Some people have fun in different ways. Enjoyment is subjective, so is accomplishments.

What this means is that the way you have fun, might not be the way other people have fun. Some people have fun feeling accomplished, and working for a goal that will give them a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, which btw Satisfaction and accomplishment are also very subjective things, like Fun. So, These people who have fun building a character, while playing an MMO, they realize two things in FFXI specifically.

1) RMEC were designed to be/remain top tier. Indefinitely.
2) While most gear will get replaced, the more difficult items generally have a longer shelf life.

So, when the new director releases content that sh*ts on their weapon by nearly 30%, They feel disheartened, Maybe not because of the RMEC being sh*t on, but because they did not sign up for FFXI to run on a perpetual gear hampster wheel set on HYPER SPEED +, Its not what FFXI has been about since its release. Eventually most gear got outdated, but it had a severe longevity.

Plus, Weapons were really the only things massively outclassed... why? I mean look at armor, while some of its clear winners, this always happened. the stats aren't too off base with other 99 armor, and the DEF Values remain about the same... but weapons jumped up, in some instance, 100+ Over their Relics base damage. With this kind of gear grind, most people don't find it fun.

The gameplay itself can be fun if you allow it, but when you come to the cold realization that you're playing an MMO and nothing you do it in matters, you lose motivation to continue playing... The idea is to not let your subscriber know they're wasting time. Shoveling content that obsoletes their gear faster than they can get it is like writting "You're wasting your time" On a baseball bat and striking them in the face with it repeatedly.

In the long run, not everyone enjoys being shoveled on a gear wheel and being told you should keep running cause I say its fun! No more so than you might enjoy making your gear the best it can be. A lot of players work off wanting to be the best, while they still can, at current progression, it would be a near impossible task, and since you guys seems to dangle it around, I will too... Yes, Jobs, Family, so forth... A lot of people in this game are older than they were 11 years ago (Maybe not all, ye darn immortals), so they can't be as hardcore as they used to, and realizing content might be getting outdated in such vast bounds so quickly doesn't appeal to them.

Sorry, I've said this all before and I'm trying to say it clear so it makes sense and doesn't come off super offensive.

Hey... I said trying >:|

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Originally Posted by Keyln

This means that old gear that was suited for old content will be made obsolete, just as old content is more or less made obsolete. That includes the most powerful weapons of its time.

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This is where you seem to be misunderstanding.

Mandau, Ragnarok, Almace, Excalibur, Ryunohige....

These weren't just the strongest weapons of their time. They were meant to be the strongest weapons of ALL TIME. Indefinitely, these are to be the ultimate weapons that are not meant to be replaced at any time.

As was mentioned before these categories of weapons are exempt from the rules of replacement. Magian trials have made it so they can continue to be what they were designed to be: The best weapon slot for a job for the remainder of the game.

Newer challenges and stronger enemies appear that require the addition of more powerful gear? Sweet, release the gear. At the same time (SAME TIME. SAME TIME. SE, SAME TIME. Not further down the road.), new trials should be released so that the ultimate weapons get the power up they need to stay the ultimate weapons.

You're comparing unchangeable things like gravity or the wetness of water to something that CAN and HAS been changed: The ability for a certain class of weapon (The ultimates), to scale with the progression of the game.

While I know quite a few have no-doubt mentioned this already, I figure I'll repeat it as I want to throw my input into the situation.

@ "Learning" the weaponskill idea;
a) Relic weapon skills won't get the damage +40% boost without using them, and all of them minus a select few are worthless other than SC purposes without the extra damage improvement.
b) Mythic weapon skills are already learn-able without the mythic weapons, making the idea for mythics moot.
c) How do you differentiate the difference between using an empyrean weapon skill with the empyrean weapon or the Walk of Echoes weapon? They don't have any damage bonuses on the weapon skills at all.

Here's my suggestions as a whole on this situation, SE. I'm trying to feel for you all, I really am, but I'm finding it difficult. The WS idea isn't completely awful, I'll admit that, even if I'm not a fan of it in general; we saw that with mythics and we were more than fine with it back then. More than that needs to be done, period, but it's not a horrendous initial thought.

- Give players a KI or something that will enhance the weapon skill damage even without using the weapon. All WS's for relics suck without the damage increase. This isn't a bad idea for mythic weapons either, since people can use the mythic weapon skills already without having the weapons. Of course, keep aftermath tied to the weapons, this much is obvious.

- Give empyrean weapons a damage increase to empyrean weapon skills, and use that as a basis to differentiate the empyrean and walk of echoes weapons. At this point, it's the only way to make the two different.

To the point at hand, though. It's not about the WS's on the weapons. It's about the weapons themselves. I'm more upset the team does not have a solid plan on improving them. As far as I'm concerned, gear that's stronger doesn't need to be implemented until a concrete plan of addressing this situation is made, and the improvements are released as the gear is. We saw this with the level cap increases from 75 to 99, granted level 99 versions weren't ready when the level 99 cap was introduced...they still were implemented.

I can guarantee SE this much right now. If improved level 99 R/M/E weapons were introduced in this update alongside these high damage weapons, no one would be complaining...at least, no one I know would be. As much as I recall them saying they did not want to base improvements on magian trials, it's not a bad idea. It can be quested upgrades, don't really care. It can require obtainment of the new naakual weapons, especially as more types come out, don't care. People want to know the time and effort they spent for years on weapons they believed to be top tier won't be wasted. That's the reason they were seeked so much.

With the initial ideas Matsui posted, it does not address this in any way, shape, or form. In fact I feel it's insulting. I can tell you right now I didn't get Apocalypse just to learn Catastrophe and use it on a sickle and not gain the WS damage improvement and the Haste aftermath. I certainly didn't get Ragnarok to learn Scourge just to use it on a nagan, I got it because it was the best great sword and has been the best ever since Resolution was implemented. Not to mention, the models on the weapons are unique. Why even make all of that worthless just for a weapon skill to be usable when using different models, which are likely just re-used? See why I say it's insulting.

If this isn't addressed overall, I definitely expect a lot of people to call it quits; some I know have already. Some might accept that the R/M/Es have been obsoleted and move on, but I'm sure that'll be a minority; I'm certainly not a part of that. While I realize the player base decides how things cost and SE does not, they still need to consider this. There are people around with every single relic and empyrean. Some people even have multiple mythic weapons, and it's time consuming and expensive enough to obtain one of them, with alexandrite ranging from 600M not that long ago to a more-yet-still-not-reasonable 300M on my server. Regardless, refusing to address these situations will greatly affect people doing older content in general, not just those that are seeking these weapons. People would still do Salvage for Alexandrite even after having gear, people would still do Voidwatch (horrible loot system be damned) for heavy metal plates/pouches, and a lot still do Dynamis to farm currency and/or make gil. With the current situation, these activities will greatly diminish to the point where no one will do them.
PS: Afterglow isn't an improvement to the weapons, so I'm glad they would factor the initial level 99 versions as well. I don't care what anybody says, wasting 50 level 95>99 upgrades for a glow is NOT completing the weapon, it's adding a glow that serves no real use for the user and for anything even remotely close to the effort put in it. Alas, this isn't the subject here, and it really shouldn't be.

I know SE does want a lot of players to engage in Adoulin activities, which is a GOOD thing; however, making weapons that require an immense amount of effort in old content outdated isn't a way to do that. It's one thing to replace AH weapons and some other things; it's another to replace "ultimate weapons". Use the content as a basis to improve the weapons players obtained that were at "ultimate weapon" status for a long time... to even try making them outdated is an insult, especially the level 99 versions, which really should not be happening.

Get a plan in motion, share it with us, and ensure we will not feel like we wasted so much time, and I can guarantee you won't lose players... I'm sure some that have already quit will even return. We're fine with tackling difficult content - we actually WANT that, so for that, I say thanks, SE. You're doing that part right. Delve is tough indeed.

And that is my two gil in the matter.

As a player, I don't see the point in being outraged until I can see the big picture.