On Red Mage melee...

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This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.

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Now I know you don't pay attention.

1. DMnd is reached on vast majority of fodder mobs before even touching main/sub slots, it's the exact same argument as for staves.

2. RDM at this point is a minimum hate job, which means your arguments for PDT and MDT are reduced to monsters who AoE a significant amount of damage. Read the full post, I regard this issue when it comes to monsters who can deliver a truck ton of AoE damage. (as in for, if it can, you're likely not going to melee it anyways. Thus, it's overkill just like elemental staves for M.Acc.)

I mean, add them to your personal list if you want to nitpick THAT much. But they're just as moot if not more in the described situations. At least Cure Potency and Nuking damage have a clear, measurable contribution increase even in fast fights. Hitting a vague stat cap on a potency that may or may not even see it's full effect put to use in the fight is not, especially for quick fights.

And if you TRULY wish to nitpick, NOTHING prevents you from taking the hit in TP gain to swap into a PDT MDT or Full MND set, or any other weapon combination if you feel it's worth the loss. That is entirely up to your discretion.

1) You're currently the only Rdm Melee advocate talking about making Rdmelee viable on fodder mobs. This is probably because everyone else here knows that it already is. No one gives a flying crap about fodder mobs.

2) Seriously? Red Mage? Minimum hate job? Christ, I'm hard pressed to find a time when I'm not capping Enmity on Red Mage on anything alive more than 60 seconds. The only thing I'm actually macroing Enmity- into is Cures, and those are hardly the bulk of my casting.

Some of you guys really make me feel like your disgust for Magical Red Mage stems from the fact that you literally just sit there and Haste, Refresh, and Cure over and over. I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot". This rendition of "Red Mage" is absolutely nothing like the Red Mage that myself, that Aurara, that Eek, that Cid, that Karbuncle, and that every other high-end Magical Red Mage in here knows how to play.

He's not the only one that believes that Rdm should be able to melee on non HNM mobs. "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" Has been a fairly common motto for a while now.

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

You might say that you are lightening the white mages MP load, but be realistic. If your defensive spells are really going to be the difference between victory and defeat I can guarantee you that you have bigger issues with your set-up.

I mean list the spells that you will realistically use to actually contribute to the offensive side of things. Haste, Refresh, Dia III? I missing anything? Maybe dumping some nukes before a convert? Sure if you are in abyssea nuking might be viable, but outside where even Blms are laughed at as a DD until they fix nukes outrageous MP cost melee is infinitely more efficient then nuking.

I know how to play the never stop casting game. I also know that besides the Haste/Refresh botting 99% of that game is completely pointless on 99% of mobs because it's pretty much all defensive in nature on monsters that you would almost have to try to die on if you have a whm.

Also, everyone can easily cap enmity in under 60 secs in abyssea.

Edit: Did you really just say that Haste Samba is better then the spell haste. 15 > 10 and spell haste > JA haste until it's actually possible to cap spell haste outside of soul voice.

Seriously, Drks would like a word with you if you think JA haste is better. Probably misread what you meant though.

Magic Haste is so unbelievably hard to find. I mean, like, there's totally never going to be anyone else capable of casting magical Haste around when a Red Mage is on the front lines meleeing with only basic support spells. 10% JA Haste is infinitely better than a redundant 15% Magic Haste in any scenario where someone else is perfectly capable of giving people Haste spell. I don't see anyone here at all advocating a 5 DD + 1 RdMelee setup where the RdMelee is only doing backup heals with a severely reduced spell load.

Same reason Summoner's Hastega is only good for conserving MP.

Honestly, I think you highly underestimate Red Mage's nuking and situational control capabilities. It doesn't require Abyssean demigod-mode in order to be decent. We've had this conversation before, and the only thing that came of it was it becoming abundantly clear who had the better nuke set.

Calling the difference between Slow 1 and Slow 2 negligible is ignorant at best. Slow eliminates entire potential attack rounds, and significantly decreases potential damage taken over time. Am I going to really stress over Slow2'ing every monster in an EXP scenario where things die in 10 seconds? Naw. But if I'm fighting a low-end NM, or an IT monster, is it worth the time and MP to cast? Definitely.

Finally, is it that hard to grasp the concept that Red Mage is already a viable melee on total crap fodder mobs that nobody cares about? When a Rdm has gear that isn't complete and utter crap, they can DD circles around Pickup Gimps (Doom proved this). You don't need to adjust Red Mage to make melee'ing viable on fodder because it already is. It simply isn't viable on anything above EM-T level. We've only said that a few dozen times now.

Edit: Dark Knight is the only job in the game that can cap JA Haste. They are unbelievably broken from a Haste perspective and have nothing to complain about in that department. Don't confuse the whining of the craptastic masses who are only concerned about their lack of Critical Hit WS in Abyssea because they're too crap tier to ever move beyond easy-mode content with the legitimate problems that the Dark Knight job faces (Yes, it has some. Haste isn't one of them.)

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Originally Posted by supersun

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

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Let me get this straight, you want RDM melee to be good enough that they will be invited to a party when similar buffs/debuffs are already present?

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I'm not going to explain why people are laughing at you. You are using the exact same logic as Dallas as to why he thinks melee SMN is teh awesum.

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Originally Posted by duele

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

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You are absolutely correct. I'm pretty sure this is why SE made RDM extremely good at everything... except melee. Also, not quoting one of your posts again, but because you repeatedly bring it up:

Stop insinuating that RDMs were only capable of soloing because of cheesy tactics and oversight in game design. RDMs are/were good/better at soloing (than other jobs) because of Fast Cast, and to a lesser extent Enspells, and because of access to a wide variety of gear. Referring to solos that are possible because somebody has movement speed (not job specific) and a DoT spell or JA (anybody with a support job) as part of your argument makes you sound like you have never actually played RDM before, at least not in anything close to it's full capacity.

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Originally Posted by Hiryst

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

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Speaking in the general sense, and as somebody who doesn't typically say things like "I told you so". I got into an argument about RDM melee a few years back on the Alla forums and suggested that Quick Magic (like in T.O., Conserve RT or some such) would probably be the biggest improvement RDM could get for it's melee improvement due to it being an outright % increase in available TP phase time. I even showed math for it. Of course, not being an outright increase in att/acc/enspells/ja:sordzaretehawsum, I got rated into the ground. The pro-RDM melee crowd can go *** themselves if people like you are the best they have to show for themselves.

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The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Let me get this straight, you want RDM melee to be good enough that they will be invited to a party when similar buffs/debuffs are already present?

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I'm not going to explain why people are laughing at you. You are using the exact same logic as Dallas as to why he thinks melee SMN is teh awesum.

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That's a hell of a stretch to make a conclusion...

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Is slow II worth the time and the MP to cast on low end monsters? That entirely depends on efficiency. Sure, it'll cut down on DoT that the party takes, but if the party is in no risk of dying why would you waste time and MP on something that won't help you kill faster. I mean at that point all you are really doing is lowering the chance of one of your DDs to counter the monster.

Can Rdm outmelee a bunch of gimps on fodder? Well, yeah, so can just about every other job. The issue is that equally geared Whms and Brds can out DD a Rdm as well. Solo potential or not.Rdm shouldn't be offensively weaker then a whm. I'm not sure how this doesn't concern you since I remember reading in voidwatch how part of your spectrum enhancement is related to how much damage you do on a proc iirc.

Seriously at minimum there shouldn't be a problem with SE changing 5 lines of code to fix simple things that never should of happened in the first place to actually give Rdm enough DD potential to beat a Brd that will especially help Rdms on the lower end of the gear spectrum.

Guardian's already expressed his opinion and he's fine for it. We're never going to convince each other of the stance and attempting to do so detracts away from the point of the thread. Please find another thread to argue your points at Great, they'll find no reception here, where the concepts to discuss the tie ins that would make it more functional in the front lines are being made.

I stoutly do not believe the solution to the problem of RDM's frontline performance is leveling another job. I level another job to play that job on it's own merits, merits that fit with it's archtype. And I am far from alone in this sentiment as illustrated by many here.

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1. And it's a subject you cannot simply shout down by having the more stubborn opinion. SE would be doing a disservice to a good number of it's RDM player-base if it ignores it completely, although, I will acknowledge that it would be a disservice to a greater number if it were to outwardly harm it's magical capabilities as a trade off. But there is NOTHING stating that you must melee, which, given the MMO common wisdom of Minmaxing even a generalist job, is what leads to the opinion that you 'shouldn't'.

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"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1

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As long as we're sticking to that manual, we should also abolish 14 jobs, real time combat, and being able to pan our cameras to the far right of our characters during combat. You know, cause a 25 year old game said so.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".

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You're falling back on the joke that is the "mage" argument. I find it difficult to take you seriously when you start off with that.

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THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities.

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AKA taking the job in an entirely different direction from what is dictated by its archetype (really, the sword&magic character forced into mezzer/buffbot). Making magic and melee both viable options for the hybrid in question would have prevented the mess that broke out between both camps from happening in the first place. Could have called the job something other than Red Mage (Green Mage or Oracle actually fits what we currently have better) and gotten similar results.

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Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic.

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That's not a hybrid job. That's a caster with an incomplete idea attached for novelty. Very different things.

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You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDM

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You seem to join Guardian in thinking I'd nerf RDM on the baseline, whereas I'd create a melee facet (hence the stances) and build off that without fear of melee proficiency breaking the job because the limiting mechanic that makes modern hybrids tick would actually be there, along with safeguards to prevent said melee facet from being misused or undermined by other players. Instead of crossing your arms at me before even hearing what I have to say, how about you ask me to elaborate?

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you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.

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If you actually believe this, it only tells me that deep down you do realize the job in its current incarnation is poorly-designed.

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Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.

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I can admit to this. Do, however, keep in mind the melee camp is on the receiving end of the insults. In my case, also keep in mind I've been in these kind of arguments before. Different game, different class, but same archetype and same naysayer BS.

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If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage.

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This creates redundancy, so that would not fly. From a design perspective, cycles don't have a place in front line play.

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Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace it

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My prior experiences on this matter beg to differ. DPS boosts, utility that makes it nice to have the hybrid stand in the front hitting things, some inconveniences to healing or safeguards to prevent the hybrid from being forced into buff-botting of heal-botting if front-lining, mezzing/debuffs tied in to front-line play and maybe even some nukes, too. Note the caveat: When front-lining.

If you want to look at it another way, when you play in the back line you get to use the aspects of your class to make the back line role work. When you front line, you use the aspects of your class to make the front line role work. The current model doesn't let that happen due to lacking mechanics and the fact that staying away from the mob (not just in the case of RDM, but most classes in this game) is the "easier" and "safer" alternative.

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I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot".

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You do realize that our perceived "value" when talking about group dynamics largely hinges on heals, Refresh and Haste, right? Enfeebling plays second fiddle to the big three. Flexibility matters little in party content, in no small part due to the old "good parties don't run into things where your utility and flexibility would help, so shut up and refresh me" argument. If you're trying to bring RDM soloing again, I'll remind you that soloing means nothing in a game built around partying.

You guys also seem to have missed something I did make clear earlier in this thread: I don't mind having a melee RDM abide by the rules other melee follow in combat. If the SAM, DRG, WAR and MNK are being told to not hit a mob due to some encounter mechanic, I'm not going to expect to be melee'ing either. That'd make no sense.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

1) You're either doing it wrong, or don't know what you're talking about if those are the only things you are gaining from your Main/Sub slots. Not trolling.

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You are trolling and also a bad RDM.

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Magic Accuracy,

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FFXI 101. There are 3 Kind of mobs you can experience in ENDGAME (not something you do OBVIOUSLY).
(1) trash mobs, wtf do you need a staff
(2) Boss where you easily cap mag acc (and I mean EASILY) : AT 75 they were gimp mobs like Fafnir, salvage bosses, Nyzul bosses, limbus bosses etc. Don't need staff
(3) Bosses that are either immune (earth wyrms) or that cap magic evasion w/e the gear you are using (Odin).

Casting slow and paralyze (and blind) with staves has always been useless for true RDMs (aka those with a gear / merits that don't completely suck)

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PDT, MDT/MDB,

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Most useless set of gear. Most of the idiots caring about this did it because they couldn't farm the great pieces of gear, and tried instead to find useless pieces of gear to equip. I mean HELLO stoneskin, equip that enhances stoneskin. If you get nuke you recast stoneskin. At least you didn't say "idle" where some idiots actually equipped regen gear.

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dMND,

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ok

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hMP,

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I don't remember the last time I rested my MP on RDM. It was probably in 2005 with awesome exp PT of RDM-SMN(main heal)-PLD-BLM-THF-DRG.

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and Refresh say hi.

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wat ¿

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If a Red Mage is not utilizing 100% of their time/MP/casting pool at all times, HNM or not, they're being lazy as hell.

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This is because you are the ONE considering that RDM is a cure bot. If you need curing, WHM are there for this job. RDM is in your ally for
(1) debuff slow/para/blind and mainly dia3
(2) pulling obvioudly
(3) sleeps
(4) backup curing nuking w/e

Due to this, convert, and refresh2 there is basically no time where a RDM is out of MP, but you would not know this since you don't play RDM, or your only experience with it is lol merit parties.

Shut up Pchan.

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Shut up Pchan.

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^.

I'm also fairly annoyed with the idea that "Fixing Rdm Melee" is "5 lines of code that the Devs can do in 2 minutes and won't affect anything else in the game ever". Last I checked, Rdm could out-DD Bard if they don't completely suck. White Mage melee'ing is extremely gimmicky as well, and has never been acceptable on anything outside of fodder, so I don't really see the complaint here. It's not that Red Mage melee is gimped because it is comparable to White Mage's. It is simply that White Mage's melee was buffed to be comparable to Red Mages to fix the job's inability to defend itself while solo.

And frankly, I do not, have not, and will never give half a flying frock about "helping people at the low end of the gear spectrum be super awesome at everything". That is what the gear is for. That is what you do in Final Fantasy XI. You improve your character by undertaking quests and battles in order to obtain better gear, which you then utilize to unlock the maximum potential of your job.

FFXI is not a game where a naked Spankwustler can throw on whatever they want and be good enough. There will be times where your performance, and your gear, and your skills will not be good enough for the task at hand. So what do you do? You get better. Abyssea is casual-friendly content, the likes of which this game hasn't seen in ages. The level cap increase has made old-style content significantly easier, opening the doors to lv75 Endgame gear wide open to anyone who bothers trying for it. If you're (general) still running around in full teal, it is because you are not putting in the effort to get better. Period.

Still not seeing the point some people are trying to make. It's like they're not even reading anything I write (surprised? Nah). I'll put it in bold for you, then. Red Mage is already an acceptably decent Melee on fodder mobs. It does not need to be adjusted in order to become viable on anything below EM-T level. If you agree that melee'ing NMs is stupid, then we have nothing to talk about. But remember, you are not the only RdMelees posting in this thread. Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.

As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them. Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.

Some people are arguing Concepts. Others are arguing Reality. For those who are so indignant about the "Duelist" being unable to "Duel", what realistic tweak do you think the Devs could make that would accomplish.... whatever it is you want. Also, what is it that you want? Because every single one of you seems to subscribe to a different (though sometimes similar) agenda. Do you want Rdm melee'ing on HNMs? Do you simply want its melee'ing on fodder mobs to get a buff? Do you want people to actually invite Rdm for their melee aspect (This will Never happen, and nothing SE can do will change that)? Or do you just want to throw a hissy fit about how weak you are like every Pup, Drk, Blu, and Smn in the game? I will always find the latter hilarious considering Red Mage really is the single most powerful job in FFXI, and probably always will be.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

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Not really sure either. He's displaying his typical Pchan inability to read for comprehension. He also doesn't seem to know what Owleyes is, which isn't surprising because he hates Abyssea so much.

owleyes is as useless as meleing on pup, a RDM is never idle it's always active. It's not a surprise to anyone that you farm crap like this, paired with pdt and mdt. In nowadays FFXI the only RDM equip that are usefull are buff duration extension, MND, nuke, full AF3+2 and the appropriate damage + staves and crimson cuisses.

Honestly SE is going to have a hard time releasing gear that would be more useful if they do not unlock various stats cap (like MND) ; it's not specific to mages anyway.

You can argue that rdm melee is dumb but be sure to not use non retarded argument against it (like capping hate on rdm => you need mdt or -enmity gear) or requiring staves for magic acc or w/e.

Keep your haste, fast cast, pdt,mdt and hmp gear for yourself but please leave us alone with your dumb gear.

Pchan, ladies and gentlemen.

ITT: Haste: Dumb gear

Wow pchan. That's just... terrible....

It's like he's arguing against RDM melee while insulting RDM maging. I bet he bleeds from the ears a lot. There's probably a guy in slippers being fed his meds across from him right now.

allright, i'm back and i'm much more sober!

just to reply to karbuncle and hyrist a couple pages back. i do see 1 potential flaw with attaching buffs/enfeebs to enspells.. in that you're generally gonna want 1 buff over the other, depending on the mobs behavior or your party setup. and it's likely not gonna line up with the mobs elemental weakness'/resistances/absorb/so on. this could be solved by making they're natural magic acc sky high (so you can use the buff/enfeeb you want without losing dmg to "resists", even if you use fire on a water mob) or by changing all tier3 enspells to deal non elemental magic damage, with just the added effect being tied to there stated element (this way you also avoid mobs that absorb specific elements)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.

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It's not backpedaling when it is part of the original idea/suggestion. I simply never posted the idea in its entirety. I've been taking pieces from the idea and using them as separate ideas. in other parts of the discussion, both here and in the Melee Mage thread.

Since I'm interpreting your comment as a subtle request to elaborate (or explain myself to some degree), I'll indulge you with the reader's digest version of my idea: I'd basically give a stance mechanic to RDM, but with built-in restrictions to allow emphasis on melee and the caster sides of RDM depending on what you want to do with the job. The melee stance would obviously have mechanics to mix in magic and sword arts (JAs, melee-oriented traits), with limited support, nerfed casting ranges (since the melee stance should be used for melee...), a tweaked spell selection, and possibly some enfeebles exclusive to the melee stance. Boosted melee through higher skill ratings and access to more weapon skills is a no-brainer. On a personal level, I'd also toss in things to streamline the class to perform up to par in this role. In short, the melee RDM would be enfeebling stuff in the front lines while swinging their weapon, dealing melee and some magical damage (enspells and more) with some support still available to them should the need come up, but not to the point where a melee RDM would be forced to use its support only.

The caster stance, on the other hand, would play similarly to how RDM currently plays. You'd have the current support spells, the current nukes (I also had the dual element nuke idea until I was told it's not possible due to game mechanics), additional leeway for healing without giving RDM Cure V, and its enfeebling intact. I would, for the sake of balance, limit melee capabilities when in the caster stance.

What I was considering, though, was distributing the spell lists where appropriate. There's spells that you don't use in the back lines, and similarly there's spells in the front lines that don't do much for you. I guess the best way I could put it is that when looking at Fencer and Sage, one would (for example) look to temporarily disable an opponent while the other, having the advantage of distance and different spells, would be able to take the time to do actual crowd control. The alternative would be to have each stance affect certain spells differently. Don't know how complicated that would be, though.

Feel free to ask if you need me to elaborate further. I have the whole thing archived and there's plenty of points that could be up for discussion...provided there's someone actually willing to discuss things.

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As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them.

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Yet why are we continuously invited to heal, refresh and haste? Abyssea's refresh atmas were a godsend and all, but those shackles haven't fallen off.

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Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.

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Sorry, but no. No one deserves the fate the developers placed on BST or the other solo-only jobs for as long as they did. Everyone should be able to participate because otherwise, why add those jobs? We already know thematics on their own don't justify anything. Thematics and game mechanics, on the other hand...

Derp? I already answered your question. If a group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Cure/Refresh, then either the group is made up of terrible players, or the group knows that the Red Mage is a terrible player who would be unable to do more than that anyways. Only terrible, terrible Red Mages are limited to Haste/Refresh/Cures.

Honestly, I see absolutely no reason to start nerfing Red Mage's spell selection just so that people have a "reason" to melee. What you're asking for is an excuse. "Sorry guys, I can't use the enfeeble you want unless I'm hitting it with a sword ^_^". That, or the enfeeble granted by melee'ing is useless, in which case it does nothing for you. Do you see the dilemma here?

Would I mind having a "Boost attack/acc" and "Boost Mag Acc/Mag Attack" stance option? Naw. But messing with spell selection is just asking for trouble.

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Honestly, I see absolutely no reason to start nerfing Red Mage's spell selection just so that people have a "reason" to melee. What you're asking for is an excuse.

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Which goes in accordance of finding a place for melee and placing emphasis on chosen roles. And I wouldn't call it so much an excuse but more a means through which melee is not overshadowed or entirely trumped by the RDM's other faculties. Currently, casting overshadows and carries more benefits than melee. I aim to correct that while preventing redundancy between a caster RDM and melee RDM.

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"Sorry guys, I can't use the enfeeble you want unless I'm hitting it with a sword". That, or the enfeeble granted by melee'ing is useless, in which case it does nothing for you. Do you see the dilemma here?

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You're creating a dilemma before looking at the elements in their entirety. There's a reason I mentioned spells relevant to their role. Are there survival wildcards like Blink and Stoneskin? Sure. I also have no idea what to do with them in the context of rearranging spells and could use the input to flesh the idea out. I guess I'll post how I would redistribute spells at some point. Admitedly, the melee stance is the one that would see more restrictions.

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Would I mind having a "Boost attack/acc" and "Boost Mag Acc/Mag Attack" stance option? Naw.

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I wouldn't either. The so-called balance mongers then come in and tell us we're OP and are asking to make every class obsolete and how we killed their dog and stole their girl. In a way, my idea came about because of their invasions of RDM melee threads (and their equivalents in the WoW boards pre-WotLK). As I said, there's more to it. I'm open for discussion on what's been laid out so far, though.

So basically you want to tie all our spells up and create the problem Scholar already has? No thanks, that's more of a kick in the nuts to SpankWustler than a buff/correction/whatever-you're-calling-it to melee capabilities.

Aside from en-spells there isn't anything in our spell book that doesn't work just as well or better from the back-line. Any new spells you introduce for this stance-spellbook idea of yours would also likely work better in the back-line provided you don't tie it to sword strikes, which is as GG said: an excuse to melee.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

So basically you want to tie all our spells up and create the problem Scholar already has? No thanks, that's more of a kick in the nuts to SpankWustler than a buff/correction/whatever-you're-calling-it to melee capabilities.

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Not all, but some. And rather than leaving things open-ended, you remove things from the equation. As I mentioned, the alternative would have having each stance affect spells differently to create role emphasis through game mechanics. We don't have that at the moment. You can't tell me it wouldn't work, as I've seen it succeed and make all camps happy. Granted, it required specs to truly come to fruition, but I believe that element is not necessary to reach the goal. What we need more of is also one camp to stop trying to put down or halt the other. And if you don't agree with our ideas, then start posting your own. I'm interested to hear how you would fix us.

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Aside from en-spells there isn't anything in our spell book that doesn't work just as well or better from the back-line.

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Which, as I've mentioned is a problem for casters in general. RDM just happens to be hit hard because it's concept and archetype deal with more than just magic.

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Any new spells you introduce for this stance-spellbook idea of yours would also likely work better in the back-line provided you don't tie it to sword strikes

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Firstly, the idea is not so much about the spellbook (again, I haven't talked about what I believe should be split), but more modes for the class. Considering I'd reduce casting range for enfeebles and nukes to about 5 yalms when in melee mode, you're not gonna run into that scenario where your melee-stance spells are going to be cast from a distance. Curing I'd make more inconvenient so that it is truly used in emergencies, whereas buffing would just be changed to self-cast Refresh and Haste (with a JA later on to cut on the amount of times one has to rebuff when in melee), limiting your buffing or others to Protect and Shell.

As far as the "excuse" to melee, you do realize in order to wield our swords we are going to need some sort of design and mechanic change, right? Several of us here have that in mind and know it all too well. We need something to make melee a part of Red Mage play. My approach just happens to involve other adjustments because I tend to keep the balance mongers in mind. I know what their lot is like, and I hate their complaining about as much as I hate the BS the naysayers spout.

So, again, what are your suggestions to fix RDM melee?

You say you don't want to nerf RDM casting:

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Not all

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but before the sentence is through:

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but some

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followed by this tripe:

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I'd reduce casting range for enfeebles and nukes to about 5 yalms when in melee mode

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Curing I'd make more inconvenient so that it is truly used in emergencies, whereas buffing would just be changed to self-cast Refresh and Haste

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As far as the "excuse" to melee... we are going to need some sort of design and mechanic change

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Your solution is to gimp the living hell out of RDM so that it's less useful than BST of SMN?
Lets give RDM a stance that makes them a second rate DD PLD.

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So, again, what are your suggestions to fix RDM melee?

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There is nothing wrong with RDM melee. It's good against trash mobs. It sucks against harder mobs. You want to have a stance that makes your melee better against harder mobs while nerfing your magic? It's called /change job. If you don't need RDM magic play a real DD. If all you care about is role playing, find a role playing LS.

Now, quit playing dallas in the RDM forums.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

And if you don't agree with our ideas, then start posting your own. I'm interested to hear how you would fix us.

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The thing is, SpankWustler doesn't need fixing.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You say you don't want to nerf RDM casting:



but before the sentence is through:



followed by this tripe:







Your solution is to gimp the living hell out of RDM so that it's less useful than BST of SMN?
Lets give RDM a stance that makes them a second rate DD PLD.



There is nothing wrong with RDM melee. It's good against trash mobs. It sucks against harder mobs. You want to have a stance that makes your melee better against harder mobs while nerfing your magic? It's called /change job. If you don't need RDM magic play a real DD. If all you care about is role playing, find a role playing LS.

Now, quit playing dallas in the RDM forums.

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I could man-hug you, no homo. This in a nutshell is everything that is wrong with Duelle's stance argument. You (Duelle) are not buffing melee, you are nerfing magic and requiring melee'ing to do what we already do now. For crying out loud, you bring up Blink and Stoneskin as if they should only be available in your melee stance. That is bloody horrible.

There is a very clear bloody reason that Red Mage is ten times the mage Scholar will ever be, despite having a weaker spell selection and fewer actively contributing magical JAs. Not sure what it is? Let me spell it out for you:

Red Mage is extremely powerful because it has access to every single one of its spells at maximum potency at all times.

Undermine that and you undermine what makes Red Mage good. So seriously, don't you or anyone else dare complain about us "haters" coming in and "trolling" you guys while you're tossing around "harmless ideas" that "simply augment Melee without hurting Magic". You admit straight up that you absolutely refuse to believe that there is any way to make Red Mage's melee aspect good enough for you without fundamentally nerfing Red Mage's magical prowess.

If you won't be content with anything less than a nerf, then shove off. No one wants to hear it. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. Real Red Mages aren't going to sit idly by while you destroy our class.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Undermine that and you undermine what makes Red Mage good. So seriously, don't you or anyone else dare complain about us "haters" coming in and "trolling" you guys while you're tossing around "harmless ideas" that "simply augment Melee without hurting Magic". You admit straight up that you absolutely refuse to believe that there is any way to make Red Mage's melee aspect good enough for you without fundamentally nerfing Red Mage's magical prowess.

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Then it falls on you to convince me otherwise. Start posting your ideas on how to fix RDM melee if you're so convinced the current design can work in making both camps happy. We're all ears.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As much of a complete and utter geek as I am, there is a massive difference between players who look at a job's name/archetype and demand that whatever it happens to be now conform to that preconception, and players who look at what a job actually is and think about how to make it better at what it does.

Funny, one group is almost always more successful than the other, both in-game and in the idea market. I wonder why that is.

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The job is sold as a Magic Swordsman. I want to use magic AND my sword, and you make it out that this is asking too much? Go to www.finalfantasyxi.com, click on "Your Characters", and scroll down to the Red Mage job description. All we're asking for is to actually do what the job does that we signed up for.

Again, I'm asking you, how do YOU know that your biased perspective on the job is the "correct" one? The job is a hybrid; it'd be different if we were arguing against a WHM curing or a BLM nuking, but we're not. You're more than happy to pigeon-hole a hybrid into a single role, and you don't see the problem?

It's not like we're asking to nuke on DRK, we're just asking that an existing facet of the job be brought up to a playable level. Your precious "only stand in the back and cast spells" play style is not in any danger, so what do you honestly care? Why does it bother you that there could be a possibility of the job doing what is was intended to do?

If I wanted to be a SCH, I'd just be a SCH.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Funny, I was under the impression that there was some sort of Administration that handled the distribution of Food and Drugs that ensured that consumers were not suffering from legitimate physical and medical consequences by ingesting products that were not what they described.

I bet that totally applies to concepts in an intellectual property distributed over a video game medium.

Oh right.

It doesn't.

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess. Why? Because creative license is a travesty. Anything that differs from Dungeons and Dragons, Tolkein, and FF1 character archetypes must be wrong.

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Not sure what edition you're referring to, but even in D&D elves are just as strong as human, they just take a hit to their Constitution. Besides, "Elvaan" are not "Elves", but "Red Mages" are still "Red Mages".

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Originally Posted by Rayik

The job is sold as a Magic Swordsman. I want to use magic AND my sword, and you make it out that this is asking too much? Go to www.finalfantasyxi.com, click on "Your Characters", and scroll down to the Red Mage job description. All we're asking for is to actually do what the job does that we signed up for.

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Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

It's not like we're asking to nuke on DRK.

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Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Your precious "only stand in the back and cast spells" play style is not in any danger, so what do you honestly care?

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Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Why does it bother you that there could be a possibility of the job doing what is was intended to do?

If I wanted to be a SCH, I'd just be a SCH.

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If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

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Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

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Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

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Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

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You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

EDIT: On second thought, not worth necro'ing.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you won't be content with anything less than a nerf, then shove off. No one wants to hear it. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. Real Red Mages aren't going to sit idly by while you destroy our class.

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I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

I don't want to see our magic side nerfed. It's bad enough every worthwhile NM in the game is either resistant or flat out immune to our enfeebles as-is. I'd honestly be happy with just a better WS, doesn't even need to be Vorpal Blade. A worthwhile magic-based WS and I'll be a happy camper.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Then it falls on you to convince me otherwise. Start posting your ideas on how to fix RDM melee if you're so convinced the current design can work in making both camps happy. We're all ears.

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First off, the melee camp is hilariously misguided.

Secondly, chat with Doombringer if you don't know how to play and gear RDM. Actually, you should probably chat with him anyways since, based on your posts, you're probably doing something (or some things) incredibly wrong. Melee RDM, in the hands of a competent player, seems to do fine in situations where it's reasonable to melee.

I think it's now fair to argue that the RDMs who just need a crutch in the form of melee adjustments from SE - well ... those RDMs simply aren't capable of, for whatever reason, gearing and playing the job properly.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

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Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

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Opinions are awesome.

I never said I was the spokesperson for anything. I simply want a facet of the job that exists in-game to be a little more viable in a group situation. I don't feel a hybrid job needs to be relegated to one position only. Sort of goes against being a hybrid, really.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

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ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

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Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

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Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

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Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

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Wow, way to completely misread what I said. I didn't even mention Defender, because, like you said, it nerfs damage. And I didn't say it was the only job that can equip -PDT gear, I just said that it can. Troll harder, I make much more glaring mistakes than this if you're trying to belittle me.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

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And DRK was never good at nuking, so what are you getting at? I'm looking to bolster a facet of the job, DRK nukes were put there to Magic Burst on Weapon Skills. Really, I don't know where you're going with this. DRK's have never been represented as nukers in any facet, RDM's have been shown as swordsmen many times.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

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Ok, I agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

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You got me there.

I don't know, I think the problem is that a lot of people who play FFXI have played past FF Games, and rather they admit it or not, all their opinions are 100% biased on how RDM use to play.

They have some glorious nostalgia vision of RDMs in combat hitting things and slinging spells. The problem is, FFXI decided "Fk that noise, enjoy enhancing and enfeebling", They decided to give RDM a speciatly, unfortunately it was not melee.

The problem is we need to accept that, and try to work on ways to improve the job where its strongest.

If they turned around and said "Hey THF, your new weapon is greatsword" would i be like "QQ BUT I WANNA RP DAGGERS", fk no, I'd take my Greatsword, and shove it up the mobs a** faster than you could blink...

Why you might ask? because i don't care about a silly RP of the job so long as what they're giving me helps my job participate better and contribute more to a fight. Sneak Attack Torc? rofl-plow some stuff i say.

But really, this works on both sides, If by some Miracle SE decided "You know what, RDM does need a melee buff", and they started by adjusting RDM's sword skill to A-, adding more powerful Enspells that didn't overwrite Sambas (Where applicable), and gave RDM a slew of Defensive/Buff abilities to compliment RDM melee, Would that not be acceptable?

Because it would still greatly benefit the job without the need for a nerf.

And to the Melee crowd, come to accept RDM is exactly where it was in Past FF Games, a Mediocre melee with access to good weapons, but not a master of them. Luckily for you they are a master at something, unlike past games. SE isn't held to past game but something tells me they're content with RDM melee as it is. But still, you need to ask yourself why you feel so strongly about it?

Would a buff to Enhancing/Enfeebling that greatly boosted your desired-rate in a party slot be that bad? Would you sacrifice utility for Role-playing if you had to chose?