[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

OK, so I got you to stop typing the word Accuracy, let's try this one on for size...

SMN has 13% MORE natural haste than WAR.

Foreshadowing: 170 DEX is not the biggest error you have made, not by a long shot. You do play SMN, right? How do you think a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS? It's a word I have not seen you post since you used the word "gimp." The moment you realize what you've forgotten, I'll count your posts for you.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

OK, so I got you to stop typing the word Accuracy, let's try this one on for size...

SMN has 13% MORE natural haste than WAR.

Foreshadowing: 170 DEX is not the biggest error you have made, not by a long shot. You do play SMN, right? How do you think a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS? It's a word I have not seen you post since you used the word "gimp." The moment you realize what you've forgotten, I'll count your posts for you.

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You are the one who said Accuracy is unimportant. I doubt I would be able to change your mind, so go ahead and wiff away.

But I didn't know that SMN has a Job Trait simular to MNK's Martial Arts. I mean, you did say that SMN has 13% more natural haste than WAR. So that means that they can swing faster than a WAR can wearing the exact same delay weapon, no haste on either job. Without any haste spells or songs or rolls. Is that correct?

But since you question me about SMN, lets go ahead and state this. Have you fought anything hard by yourself? Do you know how to solo as a SMN? Since, you know, SMNs excel at soloing, probably more than most any jobs (except our fellow pet jobs).

Also, you mentioned how a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS. I don't know. I would rather do 3k damage every 7-10 seconds compared to doing 3k damage every 45 seconds. Assuming, of course, that you could get BP gear that low. I mean, you don't have any perp gear on, you can't for the life of you keep mp without using Myrkr all of the time, and you claim to cause yourself enough hate that you can't stay alive long.

170 DEX is nice, but you still wiff too much inside. Maybe it is you who hasn't been inside abyssea and melee NMs that are equal to or greater than your level. Or actually fought them, by yourself, because you know you can't do it.

Well, sorry, but I can. And I have. And I will continue to do so. And I don't melee to kill them either. Not because I'm "lazy" but because I know better than to give myself more hate than one hit from my avatar can take away.

LOL. Are you honestly trying to say your 85% accuracy number included the 170 DEX you didn't know existed on SMN? Why do you bother?

Also, until YOU can post why SMN has more haste than WAR, this conversation has reached its conclusion. It's that dirty little word that makes every single one of your arguments fall apart.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL. Are you honestly trying to say your 85% accuracy number included the 170 DEX you didn't know existed on SMN? Why do you bother?

Also, until YOU can post why SMN has more haste than WAR, this conversation has reached its conclusion. It's that dirty little word that makes every single one of your arguments fall apart.

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I'm saying that NMs have more evasion that you think. If you are comparing 170 DEX to normal EP-T mobs you can find in Visions area, then you will have a 95% accuracy rate. Try that with Glavoid. I dare you. Plus, love how you assume I didn't know that 170 DEX didn't exist, I just don't care about that because every other DD can still get that and still wiff against NMs without some sort of accuracy added on. 170 DEX does not mean that you automatically get a 95% acc cap.

But if you mean Hastaga as natural haste, that isn't natural. Thats spell induced. Only thing that could be considered "natural" is MNK and PUP's Martial Arts ability, because they can't turn it off, its always on for them.

Personally, I think you can't find any other argument for why you should always melee against NMs, and give up on the matter. That's your dirty little word(s).

Hastega! We've made progress! You've finally acknowledged a JOB ABILITY of SMN. Yes, any top SMN will have 13% more haste than any top WAR unless that SMN is too dumb to use the best available buffs to them.

Sure, with the addition of another job, WAR can be brought up to speed, pun intended. See my OP if you actualy intend to join my cause, but you don't get to rely on outside help in this discussion.

Next, Hastega comes from *what*? What SMN ability have you completely ignored in order to prove you are a better DD as a gimp WAR?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Hastega! We've made progress! You've finally acknowledged a JOB ABILITY of SMN. Yes, any top SMN will have 13% more haste than any top WAR unless that SMN is too dumb to use the best available buffs to them.

Sure, with the addition of another job, WAR can be brought up to speed, pun intended. See my OP if you actualy intend to join my cause, but you don't get to rely on outside help in this discussion.

Next, Hastega comes from *what*? What SMN ability have you completely ignored in order to prove you are a better DD as a gimp WAR?

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Go to number 25 in this link

Look at what it says, and see if what the above quote shows what I said.

Also, think. THINK. BPs (as mentioned before, you just IGNORE it because its an actual point and proves how wrong you are) are only 45-60 second abilities. WSs are made between 10-15 seconds depending on how geared the WAR is. Now, lets assume that both are equal in damage PER ability. Meaning, Garuda's Predator Claws is equal in damage to a WAR's Raging Rush. Even with a gimp axe, this is possible thanks to a gimp axe and crits. Without crit atma, this is still possible, just need a better axe.

So anyway, we are looking at (at best) a 45 second ability to do 4k damage compared to a WAR (at worst) ability to do 4k spike damage every 15 seconds....hmm...

Same damage, but being able to do it 4 times at worst, 8 times at best? And you still think that you can do whatever percent DoT better than a gimp WAR? Lets not forget melee hits. Even with your proc bonus you do the same damage as a WAR does on crits, maybe. WARs can do a lot more damage on crit damage now (I haven't tested out my WAR since the update however) so thats out of the bag. Non-crits? WARs still outdamage you because of the higher attack rating, skill rating, and ability to equip even HIGHER attack than you.

So, instead of throwing out numbers and saying you are the best, why not actually try to prove it? If you are comparing yourself against a level 49 WAR, you will win, even in melee damage. But compare yourself against a level 90 WAR and see how much you really do.

Anyone go out and test how broken Crescent Fang, Tail Whip, and Mountain buster were?

Did a 2,200 Crescent Fang on a Orc in Dynamis
Did a 1,300 Tail Whip, Same place
and 1,700 Mountain Buster (Seems normal >___>?)

Thought it was pretty funny Crescent Fang was averaging ~1,600(higher than Eclipse Bite) for 19MP.

No one they're so quick to nerfing that.

1.) What happened to the OP discussion?
2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.
3.) Korpg, I can't tell if the character in your sig is a dude or a chick. lol

-edit- I think I misread what the person I quoted was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

1.) What happened to the OP discussion?
2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.
3.) Korpg, I can't tell if the character in your sig is a dude or a chick. lol

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1) Who knows, nobody wants to mess with it anymore.
2) I know, right?
3) Its a dude, most common Hume Male around, according to last years stats. Probably this year also.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.

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I can cast a pet too. I have a pet out meleeing next to me, which also has a 1 sec/5 minute ability to give both the pet and pet owner Haste. If the WAR gets to use berserk, the SMN gets to use hastega. I know, it's inconvenient that he'll have to abandon yet another attempt to kill melee SMN.

And the thread died when the WAR butthurt began. BTW, Korpg, LMAO at an "average WAR" WSing *every* 15 seconds. How do you plan to get 100% double attack with Byakko's Axe? Yeah, the math was that easy. 15-40seconds per WS, depending on how leet you pretend the average WAR is. Thats 1-2 WS per BP, all at 100% TP.

If your WS with a gimp 75 axe beats your L90 BPs, you should retire your SMN. Unlike me, that's all you claim is worthwhile from SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I can cast a pet too. I have a pet out meleeing next to me, which also has a 1 sec/5 minute ability to give both the pet and pet owner Haste. If the WAR gets to use berserk, the SMN gets to use hastega. I know, it's inconvenient that he'll have to abandon yet another attempt to kill melee SMN.

And the thread died when the WAR butthurt began. BTW, Korpg, LMAO at an "average WAR" WSing *every* 15 seconds. How do you plan to get 100% double attack with Byakko's Axe? Yeah, the math was that easy. 15-40seconds per WS, depending on how leet you pretend the average WAR is. Thats 1-2 WS per BP, all at 100% TP.

If your WS with a gimp 75 axe beats your L90 BPs, you should retire your SMN. Unlike me, that's all you claim is worthwhile from SMN.

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It is still NOT natural. You have to use an ability to do so. I don't have to use Berserk because I can get to 800 attack without doing so, putting Berserk on would be too risky as is, since I get hate quick enough and the extra damage taken is not worth doing 50 more damage per swing on average.

This thread died when you tried to convince people they HAVE to melee as SMN. That is not what this thread is about, but your "my way or the highway" attitude is what killed this thread. As for WAR getting 100% TP every 15 seconds, it is very possible, you just don't see it because you are too set in your "my SMN is better than any DD" type of thinking that you only see one variable in the whole picture. Here is a hint, and you haven't used this word in several pages. I could count the posts between usage of the word. You can have 3 of them, they give you from 1 to 3 bonuses, and some bonuses include Auto-Reraise, Double Attack+10%, and Crit Hit Frequency +30%. Any WAR using 3 of these specific *blank* can get TP quicker than 15 seconds.

Plus, I'm saying a gimp WAR could beat your damage. My WAR can decimate your damage without even trying (no Berserk, no Food, no Tonics). If you can't pull out 3k damage on BPs, you should retire your SMN, and throw away that staff of yours, because that is the biggest waste of time anyone has ever put into a weapon.

How many people did you pay for the items to upgrade your staff btw?

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This thread died when you tried to convince people they HAVE to melee as SMN.

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The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

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There is a difference between curing as RDM and meleeing as SMN.

RDM cures do some good to the party. Can turn a bad situation into a salvageable one if the RDM cures people. You know?

SMN meleeing feeds the mob TP. By having more TP being fed to the mob, they spam moves like crazy, specially at the last 25% of their health, which could turn a lowman fight into a wipe. If the SMN is in an 18 man alliance, feeding TP wouldn't be a big problem, but we are talking about NMs here. He wants SMNs to feed NMs TP so they can spam their moves more. You don't see a problem about that?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

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Oh geez, you went and put `meleeing`and `RDM`in the same sentence together didn`t you?

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He wants SMNs to feed NMs TP so they can spam their moves more. You don't see a problem about that?

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Either you don't want TP, and you only have a MNK and WAR on or MNK and NIN or other combo of two jobs on it. Else you have whatever amount of jobs on it since you don't care. That is the only two scenarios. Either are all jobs useless, or a melee SMN is useful.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Either you don't want TP, and you only have a MNK and WAR on or MNK and NIN or other combo of two jobs on it. Else you have whatever amount of jobs on it since you don't care. That is the only two scenarios. Either are all jobs useless, or a melee SMN is useful.

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Thats not it. What he is suggesting is that a SMN in a party, meleeing.

Lets assume the following situation:

A 6 man party is fighting a NM. The party is as such:

NIN
WAR
BLM
SMN
WHM
BLU

Now, you have the NIN, WAR, BLU, and avatar fighting the NM. BLM nuking, WHM curing. SMN is there to do damage also, the WHM isn't a noob and can handle curing the NIN and WAR if needed. BLU does a good job curing himself. BLM doesn't need cures.

SMN desides to go in and melee. Now, you have the NIN, WAR, BLU, SMN, and Avatar feeding the mob TP. TP starts being spammed. This mob has a high damage AoE TP move that wipes shadows. NIN can't keep shadows up fast enough because they keep on getting wiped. WHM needs to cure the NIN and WAR more often. BLU runs out of mp, now the BLU needs to be cured also, all the while SMN only can keep cures on himself. WHM eventually runs out of mp, everyone dies. Where does the fault lie?

SMN needs to TP on the mob so he can get MP back, because he rather not use Refresh Atmas or doesn't have access to refresh and does not have any perp- gear, so keeping the avatar out costs him 13 mp per tick. SMN gears up to be a melee, meaning haste gear and accuracy gear, so thats why he can't keep MP up. Still, does the SMN really need to TP on the mob still?

What the hell is this crap and why did you people make me have to read it.

If it has a high damage AoE tp move you're not going to have 3 fucking people in range to eat it with only one dedicated healer and one backup healer who is going to need cures from said healer themselves because they're in melee range, your example is just plain stupid to even bring up.

You already showed you don't know how hate works if you don't think a Smn can't pull hate off an avatar from meleeing when due to hate caps and avatars having odd enmity decay (mainly carbuncle) simply using the assault/bloodpact commands enough times eventually generates so much VE the monster will continue to attack the summoner for some time even with the avatar attacking them.

The average DD is terrible and anyone with a brain could outdamage a byakko's war with a Pole of Trials spamming Full Swing. Your attack also isn't as high as you think it is without spamming YCB/RCB in a full party.

If a Smn had Hvelg/WoE staff and the enemy doesn't have a high damage Aoe TP move, because you wouldn't have extra DDs versus such a mob in the first place if you weren't stupid with only one healer, Using Myrkr to keep mp up is a legit tactic assuming the smn isn't being used to backup heal/status cure, karb already pointed out stuff is situational, damn.

Korpg is just regurgitating 4 year old arguments. He isn't even disguising it anymore. Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?

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At this very moment on Phoenix server there is a 6-man party at level 59 fighting Lesser Colibri in Bhaflau Thickets.
Cleox WHM59/blm29
Bellack NIN59/war29
Hyala THF59/dnc27
Nakts WAR59/sam29
Rukio SAM59/war29
Traversia BLU59/dnc29

So the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party is right now.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupidly specific answer.


What's this thread about?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Korpg is just regurgitating 4 year old arguments. He isn't even disguising it anymore. Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?

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Seeing that it is a good chunk of why job dynamics are the way they are in this game, I think it's a valid point.

It's like the people that tell me that 6-man balance doesn't matter for melee RDM anymore because everyone grinds exp in alliances, despite the fact that in a 6-man party you're still expected to be dedicated cure and refresh whore.

That's not true with a 4-man group, 6-man group, or 18 man group. When WHM are mandatory what kind of idiots think they need a SMN healing?

I know it's hard to believe, but there are SMN who are actually competent at their job. Tell your SMNs to learn their job.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Ask a stupid question, get a stupidly specific answer.


What's this thread about?

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SMN using an emp WS available at L85 being more competent at their job than a WAR using L75 gear they got 5 years ago. I honestly would not be surprised if Korpg started defending Byakko's Axe in a level sync party, so I will just tell you "good point!" and chuckle a little.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I know it's hard to believe, but there are SMN who are actually competent at their job. Tell your SMNs to learn their job.

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So, pray tell, what is your idea of a "competent" SMN? Is it one who does nothing but melee, or one who lets the avatar do all the work?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I honestly would not be surprised if Korpg started defending Byakko's Axe in a level sync party, so I will just tell you "good point!" and chuckle a little.

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Of course, you wouldn't know an example if it was handed to you on a silver platter.

My Byakko's Axe statement was just that, an example. Please don't alter my words to fit your needs, like you have been doing the past 4-5 pages on this thread.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

What you are suggesting as a melee SMN would be to lose 2 of the most essential atmas a DD SMN uses to actually do the type of damage it needs to do. Probably 3, since I doubt you would use Minkin at all either. You also lose 3 of the most essential atmas a tanking SMN needs to have on to actually be able to hold 3+ mobs without dying quickly. Hell, just yesterday I tanked Funeral Apkallu and a MPK attempt from another group to steal our bird by pulling Athamas and having one player die behind us, which Garuda was able to tank both of them with ease. Can you do that while trying to pop out 600+ crit hits?

What you are doing is sending a back line job to the front where it does not belong. While your style of play is acceptable to you, do not refer "lazy SMN" into the equation, because some people might try what you are suggesting and end up wiping their party in the process. If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

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You realize we all play smn differently? You also realize that you can be replaces by any other class easily in a group? His point is that he's using a different play style that se supports but the current lv75 -20enmity avatar hate mechanics are half sAsed and needs a patch such as every game goes through. Hitting a mob for 34dmg and wearing -9enmity YY body and having fenrir have to hit the same mob for 200ish damage (he pulled) to even get it's attention is a pain tbh.

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

You realize we all play smn differently? You also realize that you can be replaces by any other class easily in a group? His point is that he's using a different play style that se supports but the current lv75 -20enmity avatar hate mechanics are half sAsed and needs a patch such as every game goes through. Hitting a mob for 34dmg and wearing -9enmity YY body and having fenrir have to hit the same mob for 200ish damage (he pulled) to even get it's attention is a pain tbh.

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If only that was true. He admits gearing up to benefit himself and not the avatar. What he becomes is weakening his avatar while becoming a substandard DD, because he is convinced that "because Emp staff has almost the same damage on it's weapon, it must be for DDing!"

I don't care if he melee's in his parties, its when he calls everyone who doesn't substandard and lazy, that is what bothers me.

I gear up to help my avatar about every 47 secs or so tbh so i can kinda understand. What ever i do in the other 53 seconds of time? Put on conserve mp, switch around gear, swap to cure potency if i'm healing, and find a new place to hide if soloing. I kinda don't see the point of wearing anything but avatar attack/acc or perp if i am not ready to BP (that 3 sec pause is enough to macro stuff in) and i have time to idle so i would also melee for mp/damage since for whatever reason we can't /heal. There are too many things they didn't bother to fix so smn is still a lv75 job no matter how many traits we get so we find ways to improve or change our stagnant play style, right?

Notice how melee got more haste, more att, more acc and mages get more mp, more stats and ja assists? We get nothing that scales us up as either the summoner or pet but we get mp over time reduction after 200 crabs, 400 pugils, 999 kirins etc etc so if i can use a WS to restore max mp or do some damage then i would instead of idling in a group.

Calling everyone substandard is pretty petty imho also to be fair.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

So, pray tell, what is your idea of a "competent" SMN? Is it one who does nothing but melee, or one who lets the avatar do all the work?

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Are you drunk?

How "competent" do you feel typing "nothing but melee" to someone who gets 1400MP every 2 minutes from a WS? I recommend you seek out the assistance of an average SMN. Even they can tell you what MP is used for.

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

I gear up to help my avatar about every 47 secs or so tbh so i can kinda understand. What ever i do in the other 53 seconds of time? Put on conserve mp, switch around gear, swap to cure potency if i'm healing, and find a new place to hide if soloing. I kinda don't see the point of wearing anything but avatar attack/acc or perp if i am not ready to BP (that 3 sec pause is enough to macro stuff in) and i have time to idle so i would also melee for mp/damage since for whatever reason we can't /heal. There are too many things they didn't bother to fix so smn is still a lv75 job no matter how many traits we get so we find ways to improve or change our stagnant play style, right?

Notice how melee got more haste, more att, more acc and mages get more mp, more stats and ja assists? We get nothing that scales us up as either the summoner or pet but we get mp over time reduction after 200 crabs, 400 pugils, 999 kirins etc etc so if i can use a WS to restore max mp or do some damage then i would instead of idling in a group.

Calling everyone substandard is pretty petty imho also to be fair.

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There is enough gear out there to have a free avatar even outside of Abyssea. Even without doing any TotM staffs. With /RDM on you can have 3 mp refresh, which is enough to last you for a convert (assuming you also Elemental Siphon). I have not rested as a SMN inside or outside abyssea since 80 cap. Except when I'm weakened, but even then, only once.

Summoners can do outstanding damage without the need of resting their MP anymore. Thanks to Convert, Refresh, 550~ Elemental Siphons, and free avatars without avatar favor, we have become a top tier DD in the game. Add on atmas, and we are unstoppable.

Melee, we can add on Minkin/Raized Ruins/Apoc atmas and deal out instant damage while maintaining our TP (for WW/SW).
Magical, we can add on Minkin/Ultimate/Beyond (or any other +elemental damage) and become great "nukers" although our limitation of 45 seconds still sucks.
Solo, we can add on Ducal Guard ONLY to have 87.5% PDT reduction (BSTs can't even get that high with one atma) at 100% of our pet's life. Include Mounted Champion and there are just a few NMs out there we can't solo. Minkin for keeping MP up without having the need to convert.

And that is another thing.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Are you drunk?

How "competent" do you feel typing "nothing but melee" to someone who gets 1400MP every 2 minutes from a WS? I recommend you seek out the assistance of an average SMN. Even they can tell you what MP is used for.

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If you even bothered to gear right you wouldn't need 1400 MP every 2 minutes. Having avatars out that costs you 13 mp per tick with Blood Pacts that cost you 176 (and 96 since you would need the cures badly from AoEs) every 45 seconds would make you have to have that 1400 mp every 2 minutes. What exactally do you give in return for your "uber melee" damage? Asking the WHM to waste 150 (135 if they /SCH) MP to raise you and keep from curing the tank? A higher chance of wiping the party you are in? Is it really that worth it? I rather HELP with the raising than NEED the raise myself.

Korpg, you do realize you are arguing against someone who is actually doing it successfully, right? I'm pretty sure that if Dallas was in fact dying every 2 minutes and getting raises, he'd not suggest that way of playing.

Just like the issue with bumblebees not being able to fly, you have to accept it when someone actually pulls it through.

I was recently having fun meleeing in abyssea after the stat cap raises. Was fun hitting IT monsters for 350 crits. I'm sure real melee jobs hit even harder, but 350 damage is still decent for a SMN.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Korpg, you do realize you are arguing against someone who is actually doing it successfully, right? I'm pretty sure that if Dallas was in fact dying every 2 minutes and getting raises, he'd not suggest that way of playing.

Just like the issue with bumblebees not being able to fly, you have to accept it when someone actually pulls it through.

I was recently having fun meleeing in abyssea after the stat cap raises. Was fun hitting IT monsters for 350 crits. I'm sure real melee jobs hit even harder, but 350 damage is still decent for a SMN.

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If that was true that he wasn't dying like he states in this thread then he is lying in that thread. If he states that he doesn't die because of the "uber damage" as stated at the first part of this thread, then he is lying in this thread.

Either way, there are too many inconstancies in both threads that would support his argument.

I've already posted the next step solution, just not for you. I no longer have to spend a few seconds the Korpg "do nothing" route. Took me 5 days to work around breaking SMN.

Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

Korpg, all that avatar gear is now MACRO gear. I know, it's hard for you to imagine a macro that could put on avatar attack gear and use a BP all at once, then another macro that could put all that useless perp gear away a couple seconds later. Macros are for advanced players, don't worry about it.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I've already posted the next step solution, just not for you. I no longer have to spend a few seconds the Korpg "do nothing" route. Took me 5 days to work around breaking SMN.

Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

Korpg, all that avatar gear is now MACRO gear. I know, it's hard for you to imagine a macro that could put on avatar attack gear and use a BP all at once, then another macro that could put all that useless perp gear away a couple seconds later. Macros are for advanced players, don't worry about it.

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I'm surprised you know anything about macros. I mean, you're demeanor towards others who disagree with you signifies a "my way or highway" attitude that new players generally have. I know, I used to have one. Then I saw somebody do something that was better than me and I opened my eyes to the possibility for improvement, unlike you have shown.

Why yes, I have mentioned macros. How else am I going to get all this -perp gear and -BP gear into one set? Thought even somebody with your observation for detail would notice that.

But you aren't breaking a job. At least, not with the intention of actually doing something good. I fail to understand how you can justify expending so much mp like that, not limited to yours of course. You will be needing cures. If you cast cure on yourself, that is stopping you from getting the TP you so despairingly need. So you can't cast cure on yourself, you require others to do it for you. Is your increased damage output justify the increased need for curing not only yourself, but other members of your party, since by hitting the mob, you increased that mob's TP and ability to use a TP move, which on most mobs, are generally AoE damage TP moves? You can't buff yourself, I don't think that Aerial Armor would absorb any of that move at all, since Blink is not the same as Utsusemi. Plus, you need to also cure your avatar, otherwise the time you spend having to recast your avatar is also time wasted from getting TP from the mob with your staff.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any justification in a SMN melee. Avatar melee doesn't matter, because the only drawback in losing an avatar is 5 seconds needed to recast that same avatar. Not keeping the WHM from curing you, or raising another person, or anything serious.

My "do nothing" route is the one that does just as much damage as an avatar/SMN combo, if not more thanks to Set bonus from Emp+2 armor (I doubt you even gotten any of those, they benefit the avatar, not the player, so to you it would seem as a waste, as stated in the above quote).

I have shown everyone here why not meleeing as a SMN is beneficent to a party. I have yet to see your argument into why a SMN should melee, or at least a reasonable argument. Only thing I have seen from you is your whole "my way or highway" attitude.

What the hell is this crap, did I just not explain it in my last damn post. Stop the idiocy, get better mages if you keep dying unless the monster has high damage AoE, not that difficult. I die all the time in PUG because I'm the only one there actually doing damage and never getting cured despite tanking the damn mob.

I also rarely go to PUG anymore.

Snarl for summoner as an inherent part of the job would be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Snarl for summoner as an inherent part of the job would be a good idea.

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I agree.



Superfluous text.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

There is enough gear out there to have a free avatar even outside of Abyssea. Even without doing any TotM staffs. With /RDM on you can have 3 mp refresh, which is enough to last you for a convert (assuming you also Elemental Siphon). I have not rested as a SMN inside or outside abyssea since 80 cap. Except when I'm weakened, but even then, only once.

Summoners can do outstanding damage without the need of resting their MP anymore. Thanks to Convert, Refresh, 550~ Elemental Siphons, and free avatars without avatar favor, we have become a top tier DD in the game. Add on atmas, and we are unstoppable.

Melee, we can add on Minkin/Raized Ruins/Apoc atmas and deal out instant damage while maintaining our TP (for WW/SW).
Magical, we can add on Minkin/Ultimate/Beyond (or any other +elemental damage) and become great "nukers" although our limitation of 45 seconds still sucks.
Solo, we can add on Ducal Guard ONLY to have 87.5% PDT reduction (BSTs can't even get that high with one atma) at 100% of our pet's life. Include Mounted Champion and there are just a few NMs out there we can't solo. Minkin for keeping MP up without having the need to convert.

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Abyssea? I don't recall saying much about it on these forums but i hardly go... i go about once every 3 days since i don't really like the content. From my point of view (and the direction the game is headed.. you can pretty much call abyssea dynamis since its 100% about gearing up) emp. weapons allows a smn to do some pretty fly stuff so its hard to knock even for a class with super stagnant play.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I'm surprised you know anything about macros.

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Yes, and you are surprised that a SMN with unlimited MP doesn't need -perp gear on full time. Get used to it or stop talking to top-end SMN.

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You will be needing cures. If you cast cure on yourself, that is stopping you from getting the TP you so despairingly need. So you can't cast cure on yourself, you require others to do it for you. Is your increased damage output justify the increased need for curing not only yourself, but other members of your party, since by hitting the mob, you increased that mob's TP and ability to use a TP move, which on most mobs, are generally AoE damage TP moves?

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Every melee job needs cures. Since Summoner is a melee job, that is not a problem, just a fact. (And it is as much a melee as a BLU. Both having MP.)

It is all pretty simple really.
A) The mob uses single target attacks. SMN will only need cures when they pull hate by doing more damage than all other melee jobs. (Good luck)
B) The mob uses AOE attacks. All melee jobs will need curaga, and SMN will benefit from it as well. Slight danger if you actually take a load more damage than the melee so you don't get fully cured when they do.

I'd also like to point out that TP feeding is still a moot discussion point. It is like sitting here discussing dual wielding axes on WAR. It's over. Past tense. Not valid. If TP feeding was an issue, DRGs for example would not be allowed to have wyverns summoned. In fact if it was an issue, BP + release would be the ONLY damage methods since it is the only TP free damage method. As soon as you let a single person TP on it, you have already worsened the situation by far more than adding a SMN melee ever will. (Unless said SMN is the only melee, in which case I hope they can tank)

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Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

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I'm pretty sure you are a taru. What works for you with for example %MP back from Myrkr might not work as well for me on Mithra.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Every melee job needs cures. Since Summoner is a melee job, that is not a problem, just a fact. (And it is as much a melee as a BLU. Both having MP.)

It is all pretty simple really.
A) The mob uses single target attacks. SMN will only need cures when they pull hate by doing more damage than all other melee jobs. (Good luck)
B) The mob uses AOE attacks. All melee jobs will need curaga, and SMN will benefit from it as well. Slight danger if you actually take a load more damage than the melee so you don't get fully cured when they do.

I'd also like to point out that TP feeding is still a moot discussion point. It is like sitting here discussing dual wielding axes on WAR. It's over. Past tense. Not valid. If TP feeding was an issue, DRGs for example would not be allowed to have wyverns summoned. In fact if it was an issue, BP + release would be the ONLY damage methods since it is the only TP free damage method. As soon as you let a single person TP on it, you have already worsened the situation by far more than adding a SMN melee ever will. (Unless said SMN is the only melee, in which case I hope they can tank)

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Yes, every melee job needs cures. But SMN is not a melee job. Our damage doesn't come from whacking a mob with a staff. It comes from our avatar, which is not only replenishable, but can deliver outstanding damage on its own. The avatar's TP feed to the mob is completely justifiable because of the amount of damage the avatar gives, plus the Blood Pact moves that can use the TP the avatar gains from meleeing. What Dallas proposes is that he gains TP from the mob just to keep his avatar out. The cost to keep his avatar out requires him to melee and do a WS that does 0 damage to the mob. Is his melee justifying enough for the TP feed he gives to the mob? He isn't doing any additional damage with his WSs, and his melee hits are slightly less than his avatar, if he hits at all. Plus, given the need for more cures, that is stopping the WHM from curing other melees that might need them. If he melees a mob that does a lot of AoE moves, thats just one more person in the area that needs the cures. He would either have to stop meleeing to cure himself (or his party if he is /WHM, but he already admits that he needs to be /SAM to do any damage output that the proposed) which would lower his DoT since he would have to not attack.

As for the WAR dualwielding and DRG examples, look at the damage done to the mob by dualwielding, and wyvern's DoT. Yeah, not that great for the wyvern, but still a lot more than damage than a SMN melee. Plus, the wyvern can "WS" every time the DRG WSs. So thats additional spike damage to include. Plus, lets not forget that wyverns already come with Subtle Blow as a job trait, so they won't feed as much TP as a melee that doesn't have any access to Subtle Blow, like WARs or DRKs.

In situations that SMNs would have to melee, as in Dallas's case, he would have to be in a party. No way in the world could he survive meleeing any NMs worth fighting, even half the NMs out there not worth fighting. His MP wouldn't survive long enough.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yes, and you are surprised that a SMN with unlimited MP doesn't need -perp gear on full time. Get used to it or stop talking to top-end SMN.

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Your method of "unlimited MP" is only one method.

Maybe if you look hard enough, you will find another method of "unlimited MP" that has a lot less risk and a lot more damage output than the one you propose others to do. Your "my way or highway" attitude is annoying, and I wish you would stop referring yourself as a "top-end" SMN. Because your limited style of thinking strongly suggests otherwise.