This is the point. Why can't we be more useful in such situations where th isn't needed? Today of course, it's simple enough to level and gear a new job. Still this reasoning doesn't work for me. Thief is the single job i enjoy the most. Thief not being useful implies that i will have less fun. And it should be about fun, for everyone. We shouldn't justify game unbalance with this new ease of leveling other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
I like the idea of a new forced crit ja. Atomic_skull's ideas pwns for one lol. 3 forced crit jas would make us able to virtually stack ws full time, which is great for rudra and mercy.
Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005
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05-29-2011, 01:25 AMLaphine
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05-29-2011, 06:26 AMBabekeke
Here's an interesting theory: If TH isn't required, I wonder just how much haste and DW and Triple attack is required before you actually lose out by using SA or TA unless with a ws.
Using the JA takes what 3 seconds? 4 maybe? It must be possible to reach enough haste and DW and low enough delay on weapons to get 2 attack rounds in 4 seconds. And even outside abyssea, it's not hard to reach 20% triple attack, so 35% with just apoc atma inside. Inside that's 1 in 3 attacks will triple, outside 1 in 5. If you're using triplus and 4/5 emp+2 in your tp gear, that's all extra damage during triple attacks too. And finally the fact that by not using the JAs and getting the extra 2 attack rounds instead, you get the extra 20+ tp to use your next ws faster.
I'm not saying it's ideal to not use it, but it makes you wonder. Even in the ideal situations where you can land your TA or SA every time it's up... are we even getting more damage from using it anymore?
Obviously we can't all have 26% haste and 20% triple attack as well as the extra 8% dual wield (unless you're using triplus AND Auric for 13% dual wield), and it's rare to even see a brd in a pt anymore, let alone have haste and double march. It is, however, possible in such a case, and in that case, you would probably deal less damage from using a JA, than you gain from it >< -
05-29-2011, 07:24 AMZiero...that's the exact issue though. SE's big boost for thf for the past few updates has been all about overhauling and adding TH...while at the same time severely reducing the amount of things it's actually useful on. That means there is less and less reason to bring a Thf over pure DDs or Nins and Dncs, or hell even Mnks, for Eva tanking stuff. From my experiences a single Yellow proc has FAR more of an affect on Seal drops then even TH8+ does. With high levels of TH on an Aby mob, it can still drop just 0-1 seal, but with the yellow proc it'll drop at *least* 3-4 each time, even without TH. So why boost, and make a big deal about boosting, TH if they're just going to add a new type of drop system that is barely affected by it in the first place. Thf needs a boost to be *more* then "just" a TH whore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
Personally, I don't think Thf should be made into a "Pure" DD, but it would be nice if it was given added functionality and utility, especially if it gained these through unique tricks and techniques. Stuff like Aura Steal, Feint and even Accomplice/Collaborator were things that made Thf useful, unique and above all, fun to play. Thf needs more abilities like those, ones with short recasts and various effects, that allow themselves and pt members to do more damage through direct and indirect means.
Thf doesn't even really need *new* abilities, just tweaks, fixes, changes and additions to the ones we have now would work to accomplish this.
It's simple, why completely outdate older abilities when you can just make them useful instead? Those circle JAs many classes have were useless for years, then SE came and changed them all. Now they have a use and are actually worth the 2 seconds it takes to pop them. Last Resort was a Job Ability that's been unchanged for years until SE decided to give it a boost, now it's a powerful and useful tool for Drks and one that changed the way many build their Gear and Merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Changing some (most) of Thfs older abilities would go along way in fixing Thf without breaking Thf. Increasing the viable range of SA would help first and foremost. Lowering the recast on Steal would make Aura Steal *far* more useful, giving Despoil it's own (short recast) timer would also make that ability something worth using. And for the love of hell, why is Mug's recast so damn long? It was barely useful back when it was NEW, nowadays, where most NMs don't even bother dropping cash and many of the best gear are R/E anyway, why is this ability still so useless?
Changing and updating older abilities, especially useless broken ones (Seriously, 15 minutes for a useless JA? Really SE, really?) is a good, easy way to boost a job without needing to add new abilities to it.
This would be something that would be so rare a set up it wouldn't really be worth it. Plus, SA and TA's damage boosts should be substantial enough (if set up properly) to warrant missing the one or two attack rounds you'd lose procing the ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
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05-29-2011, 01:12 PMnoodles355
Ok、いくぞ！
I believe you stated SE said "they are looking to increase our damage dealing potential and looking for ways to allow us to take control on the front line". Now, I will concede yes they do state this, however it is a very small section of the thief Subheading and more of the paragraph is dedicated to the other support aspects of thief. This supports my point about SE's view and intent of thief, being a light DD with support abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Hardly. Ranger is a replacement for Thief (Treasure Hunter) in the same way that a Blm/Whm is a replacement for a Whm (Cures).Quote:
Even our prized Treasure Hunter crutch that we could always count on to be wanted is being given away.
It seems there wasnt a lot to reply to here afterall, only really your innitial claim about SEs statement.
Please realise in this topic I have only ever stated what I believe SEs intent was with the job, and how versions of the job in other FFs have also followed this pattern for the majority. I never stated whether or not I want to change the role of thief to a stronger DD from this light DD/utility hybrid. Stop thinking I'm saying I want us to be a utility/light DD job.
Lrn2math. You're looking at it as: "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is only increasing drop rate by 2%. 2% is not very much". Instead you should concider "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is an increase of 100%. 100% is a lot". Furthmore you should also concider that it is the single biggest boost (by virtue of being the only thing to affect it) to increase that 2%. That is significant.Quote:
No I wouldn't. Because while a 100% increase sure does sound like a significant increase. On things with single digit drop rates, it isn't.
I have no problem stating that at least 50% of the playerbase are shitty players. They are.Quote:
Originally Posted by RygaenYuui
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05-29-2011, 05:33 PMBabekekeBRD/WHM Duo with you as THF = enough to reach this... how is that 'so rare a setup'? Most THFs reach the 26% haste tp set now and have 5/5 triple merits and some extra triple gear on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziero
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05-30-2011, 06:48 AMNeboWhy not? THF has a lot of potential to be a quite capable DD. Definitely not the best, but a good THF is more than capable of being a good DD on anything that can be melee DD'ed. Especially now with the AGL update and all the subtle blow options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
This thread (at least for me anyway) was never about increasing damage potential. It was about allowing more opportunities to fulfil our current DD potential.
Why wouldn't one take a BLM to DD a mob that is weak to magic? Maybe you meant strong against magic?Quote:
you wouldn't take a BLM to DD a mob weak to magic would you? Maybe you would.
Nah. TH whores were TH whores for sure, and there were/are many of those. A good THF always had the potential to be a relevant DD, even if playerbase perception did not reflect this.Quote:
Agreed. You seem to be forgetting though, that before Abyssea we were simply TH whores, or a decent DD at bird camp. The only thing that has really changed, is that vs NMs now (or anything that you want increased drop rate from) people are (should be) splitting SA/TA/WS. And other people in the party are (should be) encouraging you to do so. This was a step in the right direction.
As for splitting SA/TA/WS etc. this is a topic of interest for me. As far as I'm aware, there has not been significant testing in this regard, but it has been shown that TH procs can occur during weaponskills. It very well may be that stacking SA/TA WS still gives you the additional chance to proc TH that SA/TA provide. Given that SA/TA still retain all of their other properties when stacked (100% Accuracy, Enmity Transfer, Damage multipliers for DEX/AGL etc), it seems reasonable to me that they would. Definitely worth testing.
lol. Happy to hear you agreed with some of the points in the OP. Interested to hear what you thought was "absurd" about my reasoning since then.Quote:
I agree with the points you wanted on th[e first post, but some of your reasoning in more recent posts is absurd.
I only ask because you seemed to be responding to things I didn't say....along the lines of "THF getting DD power equal to other DD's", "THF should be a heavy DD" etc etc. None of which was asked for in this thread, by anyone, least of all me. -
05-30-2011, 07:17 AMNeboQuote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
THis is the whole article. You are right, they mention enmity abilities and a new steal ability (which, as it turns out was lolDespoil). They never said anything about THF being a "light DD." Only being dependant on the party to fulfil its potential. Which is why this thread exists: To attempt to start conversations as to WHY being dependant on the party rather than enhanced by the party doesn't make sense to me, in the (small) hope that we might have a conversation with them about this for once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Square Enix
With this update RNG has been given a base of TH3 (with AF3+2 gloves) and I have seen testing where a RNG increased TH to level 8 solo. This, to me, is a very significant step on the toes of the THF job and our greatest utility. THF may have more chances and gear to increase it, but RNG can get it done without feeding TP and outside of AOE range.Quote:
Hardly. Ranger is a replacement for Thief (Treasure Hunter) in the same way that a Blm/Whm is a replacement for a Whm (Cures).
New content outside of abyssea will determine the actual utility of being able to do this without feeding TP and outside of AOE range, but it is very possible that RNG could be more useful for TH procing on HNMs with powerful TP moves.
And if I was a RNG, I would be very unhappy about all these bounty shot updates. RNG is a powerful DD that is also dependant on positional limitations for dealing damage. 2 updates for bounty shot, a cancellation of the enmity update and no updates in sight to address these fundamental limitations that RNG face as DD's?....Yeah I wouldn't be happy if SE was spending time to make my job another TH whore without fixing the DD issues.
It was from quotes like this that I interpreted your desires about THF. My apologies (truly) if they were misrepresented in my responses.Quote:
It seems there wasnt a lot to reply to here afterall, only really your innitial claim about SEs statement.
Please realise in this topic I have only ever stated what I believe SEs intent was with the job, and how versions of the job in other FFs have also followed this pattern for the majority. I never stated whether or not I want to change the role of thief to a stronger DD from this light DD/utility hybrid. Stop thinking I'm saying I want us to be a utility/light DD job.
But also, I was not trying to say we should be heavy DD's either. However, I still assert that THF IS a DD job and as a DD job, asking for DD tweaks as minor (in the sense that they don't increase potential) as those in the OP is within reason.Quote:
What's your point? Se designed us as a utility job and light DD. Yes they designed us badly, but that's how they designed us. We are not heavy DDs. Stop thinking we should be.
.Quote:
You're looking at it as: "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is only increasing drop rate by 2%. 2% is not very much". Instead you should concider "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is an increase of 100%. 100% is a lot". Furthmore you should also concider that it is the single biggest boost (by virtue of being the only thing to affect it) to increase that 2%. That is significant
We disagree on this. I do see why you are coming to this conclusion, but we have different definitions of the term significant. A 2% increase in drop rate is no where near significant in my oppinion. A 100% increase doesn't mean anything without context. It is entirely relative to the origional droprate. So if the origional drop rate is trash, a 100% increase of a trash droprate is also going to be a trash increase.
But this, I believe is intentional and is how Treasure Hunter is balanced so that it is not overly powerful. This is also why I believe that having TH is not really a good reason to make us overly weak in other areas...like DD ability (not saying you are saying that, but I have heard many people make this argument). -
05-30-2011, 11:14 AMnoodles355You just answered your own question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Ranger may have Treasure Hunter now, but it's still less reliable than thief. You should see bounty shot not as a way for Ranger to replace Thief, but for it to augment thief.
Also rangers arent unhappy about bounty shot. We're actually happy because it gives us another reason to be in the alliance. Before the TH update thief would hit it once then GTFO. Now they get to DD it properly in the hopes of raising the TH level. It's a similar situation for ranger.
As for DD updates. Yeah, we're still fuming about SE's continual neglect of our enmity issues, but at least on the damage front we got a 40% crit damage boost (although it doesnt work on WS, but whether that is intentional or a bug is not known). -
05-30-2011, 12:10 PMNeboQuote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
While it is true that THF is not the best DD in terms of potential, it is still a powerful melee DD in the hands of a good player. Not having the best of the best of the best potential is certainly not a reason to bypass THF as a DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Comparisons between DD jobs are helpful to determine potential, but personal playstyle, attentiveness and skill, count for quite a lot. I (and I'm sure many others here) regularly top parses, not because THF has more damage potential as a job, but because they are good players. They have made a concerted effort to get the most powerful gear for their job and make relevant gear swaps for many different situations. They have great timing and are attentive to the various details in any given situation with regard to maximizing. They know exactly where their accuracy is and what food to eat.
If you put these things together in a THF, they are going to be a DD force and it would be foolish to bypass them.
When we compare jobs, we do it mathematically, in a vaccum, with equal level gear. This is very useful to determine job potential but it cannot account for individuals. Personality, playstyle, skill...the things that allow players to achieve that job potential.
Realistically, every WAR, SAM, DRK, THF, MNK, NIN whatever DD is not walking around with identical levels of skill and gear. And 95% of them are just plain trash in terms of damage output.
Realistically, you don't have an unlimited pool of equal level skilled/geared jobs to choose from when assembling teams for events.
In reality, you could say "Just get a WAR/SAM/DRK" whatever instead of a THF, but that also removes the human element from the game. It is about creating teams and experiencing battles with people. Not just X job is 4% better than Y job so I would never take Y job to anything.
When I pick DD's for events, I don't pick jobs, I pick people. -
05-30-2011, 02:55 PMnoodles355But it's not the best. It's not even top 5. Because of that it will never be preferred over a Sam, War, Mnk, Drk or Drg for example on a mob where you don't need TH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Put it up to wanting to be efficient. Put it up to more than 50% of the playerbase being idiots and crap players. Doesn't matter, it's still how it is. -
05-30-2011, 07:07 PMBabekeke
I have to agree with Nebo on his last comment certainly with some aspects. In a meripo, it's likely that a thf can top the parse. Especially if you're fighting birds. This is mainly because of Trick attack, and what was mentioned earlier about DDs not wanting hate or they can't maximise their damage potential. If a war uses berserk, then you trick attack him, chances are he'll have to cancel berserk, unless they feel they can ride seigan until the mob is dead. Even in this case, the WAR has to use 2 JAs, missing a swing, and taking longer to reach their next ws.
The point about the job being about the player, not the job itself is also very valid. If you're fighting NMs with a SAM that thinks he's god (there are a few about, trust me) they like to run in with all their DD buffs on, sekkanokki fragmentation, meditate light or whatever, then they spend the next 5 mins weakened. Damage potential was high, but actual damage output was low XD. The THF however, just plods along, WSing every 30 secs or whatever, fully capable of taking a few punches should we pull hate (which we would if we were fast enough to save the sam with accomplice XD).
And the gear section has me down to a T. I use ~60 gear slots on thf, and tbh I'd probably out damage my own war (lol full perle) over time.
When I choose jobs for events, every DD job has to be able to take a few hits should the need arise (ie. knows how to use seigan, not just full-time hasso).
However this thread is kind of being derailed now. Yes being able to use 'stances' or SA/TA outside of the current positional requirements would allow us to more frequently hit our damage potential, and stop me from shouting at my laptop when people move in a party. -
05-31-2011, 12:42 PMnoodles355やれやれ。。。Oh dear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
If you top the parse because you are intentionally gimping other people's damage, like making them have to cancel berserk then you are a very bad player and the fact you topped the parse is completely irrelevant. Secondly, parsing yourself against random pickup DDs has never, and will never be useful for anything outside of stroking your epeen.
60 gear slots? You think that's a lot on thief? Lol.
Obviously every good LS leader chooses the person, not the job when it comes to DD roles. Don't think you're somehow special because you do this too. Example, most LS leaders call parties something like: "Whm: Player1, Brd: Player2, Cor: Player3, War: Player4, DD: Player5, DD: Player6".
That however is irrelevant. Equally geared and skilled a War (for example) will put out more damage than a thief. Thus if you have access to equally good players and have a DD spot, you would take the War. Similarly, if you do not know the players (eg pickup group) then you would also choose a war because again, on equal gear/skill, it will be stronger. -
05-31-2011, 02:48 PMBabekekeYou have a habit of reading what people type, interpreting it in your own way, and then commenting on what you thought they said. Maybe it's a language barrier or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought. In a meripo, on colibri, hate gets bounced around; it's expected as there's no specific tank (unless you happened to have a Blau Dolsch NIN). Every DD there is expected to be able to tank should they pull hate (or if there's a thf in the pt, you might get sata'd).Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Actually, I (and most other people I know) parse myself only if I'm setting a benchmark for gear, or if I've just changed my gear, or perhaps if fighting a new mob with different stats, to see if I'm hitting the acc cap etc. etc. etc. Looks like you made a generalised judgement based on what you do yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Mis-quoted to make yourself sound better? "~" means "about/roughly/give-or-take". I wasn't logged on when I wrote that and don't know off the top of my head. It obviously depends on whether I'm carrying each individual stack of bolts/shihei AND the x/12 pouch. However, I usually have enough slots to carry the 6 ele ninjutsu and have a few slots free for lotting drops, so I guess it's not far off 60. If you think that's lol I'd be more than interested to see your "ZOMG I use 79 slots on THF full time!" Gear list, because mine is getting shorter and shorter as I add the new AF3 gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Maybe I wasn't clear for this, I just meant shouting for aby NMs or for missions etc. I'm not a LS leader, nor am I even in a HNMLS. I have a life outside of FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Which if you read back a page, is exactly what both Nebo and myself already said, but thanks for pointing this out again.Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
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06-01-2011, 02:57 AMNebo
Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue (well, argue honestly) that THF is the best DD job, given equal levels of skilled and gear etc.
A major plus to THF DD though (preabyssea before limitless MP), was damage dealt to damage taken ratio. Something not a lot of people considered I think, but a definite plus.
I don't take equal levels of skill and gear as a given though. To me it's not a given that you will find players/jobs that are equally skilled and geared. Or players that have even the slightest clue about the various damage formulas.
It's more of a given, in my experience, that you will find lots of players that just don't have a friggin' clue what to do with it, even if they do have a lot of the best gear. It's more of a given that the vast majority of the playerbase does not discuss FFXI on forums or take the time to do the math, or think about maximizing in a variety of situations.
Oh I'm sure there are quite a lot that do. But they are definitely not the majority.
Relating this to OP, I think another fundamental reason groups prefer other DD's to THF is that the job's positional nature and the way trick attack works are viewed as unneccessary hastles. It just gives them one more thing to think about and pay attention to, when they could simply invite another DD that can do their own damage without any extra thought or effort from the group.
I know I've said this before but I am quite fine with being a DD of relatively weaker potential. But being bound to positional limitations AND being a weaker DD at the same time is unbalanced in my oppinion. -
06-02-2011, 05:59 PMArconThat comment alone makes me not take anything you say seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
Seems I missed a lot of pages while I was gone, but people are still arguing the same things. Few comments:- Full THF gear? Roughly 90 slots, 100 if you go all out.
- I've only once seen a THF beat a DD in a merit party. Alljoker on Leviathan at Lv75, Mandau and full Heca+1 set vs. a random, but ok geared SAM. Every other time Thief came out last, by a good margin.
- THF is already extremely useful both inside and outside of Abyssea, because damage doesn't matter much these days anyway. Inside Abyssea, 3min vs. 5min NM battle doesn't make a lot of difference. Outside of Abyssea, time is not an issue anyway, and barely any mob will last through the survival stage, if it does it's usually a HNM and requires a decent setup in the first place, as opposed to THF + support.
I have PLD, WAR, THF, SMN, BRD, SCH and I play THF almost exclusively, not because other jobs are useless, or not geared decently, but because almost everything that currently needs to be done can be done with THF (and sometimes a support job) and can be done so easily and efficiently. THF can solo NMs extremely well, THF can farm extremely well, THF can tank extremely well, THF is great for brews, THF is great for just running around because of Flee and movement speed gear and naturally high evasion, you can just run through entire crowds of mobs, which makes it ideal for low lvl farming or questing.
People who say THF needs upgrades because it is useless doesn't know THF at all. People who say THF needs upgrades because it gets abused as a TH whore are playing with the wrong people. The only thing THF needs upgrades for are its Thief-y abilities like Steal, Mug and Despoil, because those are virtually useless as it is.
Edit:
Just read over a few comments again and it's interesting to see how many people who defend THF, say it's not useless and has lots of capabilities are the same people who complain that it isn't good enough and needs upgrades. -
06-03-2011, 01:07 AMNeboThat's a pretty silly reason not to take someone seriously. Especially when you know nothing else about them, or their history, or whether they lead or participated in an HNMLS in the past decade. He/she is just as entitled to their oppinion (even though he/she disagrees with mine :p).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
Besides which, HNMLS leaders (or even HNMLS's) may not necessarily represent the oppinnions and desires of the FFXI population. Especially now given that they really aren't needed. Most things are lowmannable.
I could also say some equally silly things about your credibility based on assumptions like:
"Arcon, you are a scrub and a bandwagon THF because you merited Flee instead of obviously superior Group 1 Merits. So I won't take anything you have to say seriously."
or
"Arcon, you have no credibility in a THF forum because you think it is a Support Job"
or
"Arcon, you have no conception of proper DD and maximizing because you gear the exact same in and outside of Abbyssea, fully aware that you aren't maximizing or DD'ing to potential, but "it's just fine so whatever.'"
I could also tell you with a high degree of certainty that my THF would not only run circles around your THF, but also your WAR as well.
All of these would be silly assumptions for me to make but, more importantly, largely irrelevant because I still believe you are entitled to have your oppinion taken seriously as well. No matter how little I personally think of it, or you as a THF.
I could also say you don't have a clue what THF is capable of because of statements like this, but I don't know that. I will note though that there is really no reason a SAM should ever be beating a THF in a meripo parse.Quote:
[*]I've only once seen a THF beat a DD in a merit party. Alljoker on Leviathan at Lv75, Mandau and full Heca+1 set vs. a random, but ok geared SAM. Every other time Thief came out last, by a good margin.
Agreed. But no one said this.Quote:
People who say THF needs upgrades because it is useless doesn't know THF at all.
Also agreed, but no one said this either.Quote:
People who say THF needs upgrades because it gets abused as a TH whore are playing with the wrong people
THF was not designed or intended to solo and tank. THF can only tank inside abyssea because of atma's (As can nearly every other DD). THF is not fine as a job because everyone with a critical WS and the right atma's is on god mode inside abyssea. It's like you keep saying, we are leaving there soon. THF needs updates for this.
I think we agree on this as well, but we disagre that this is the only thing. I also have serious doubts that SE will fix these into something relevant.Quote:
THF needs upgrades for are its Thief-y abilities like Steal, Mug and Despoil, because those are virtually useless as it is.
What I said was that THF is a DD job. A DD job of relatively weaker damage potential compared to the likes of WAR, MNK, etc, but a DD job none the less. I am fine with being a DD job of lesser DD potential, but being bound by positional restrictions as well as being a realtively weak DD is unbalanced, in my oppinion.Quote:
Just read over a few comments again and it's interesting to see how many people who defend THF, say it's not useless and has lots of capabilities are the same people who complain that it isn't good enough and needs upgrades.
I am VERY happy with THF's damage potential. I don't think drastic increases in damage potential are really needed. What I am unhappy with are the current limitations placed upon the opportunity to fulfil THF's current (relatively weaker) potential. -
06-03-2011, 01:51 AMLaphine
You do exaggerate with those "extremely well". We can do most of that stuff okish at best. What we do excel though is making shit drop.
The point on this thread, and mostly the op, is that by freeing us from positioning we could get better at something that we suck at. That's soloing. Not because we can't survive solo, but because our performance/utility in such case takes a dive. And this doesn't make sense when low manning is the way the game is headed. Then again, this idea goes against the understanding that SE has about thief (a job that relies on the party to bring its full potential). Still, even if we do have a party, i don't think we bring out so much to it (beyond drops). That text about thief updates used on vanafest is nothing but some pretty words. -
06-03-2011, 03:00 AMBabekekeThat's fine. If you have no life outside FFXI then there's no reason for you to take me seriously. Believe what you like, and do whatever boosts your E-Peen. If you can't beat any other DD on THF vs birds though, that must make your E-Peen droop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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06-03-2011, 03:53 AMArconIt's an adequate reason not to take someone seriously. Since this is a debate based on player judgment, and with that comment they showed the judging capabilities of a three year old, I don't see the reason to value anything they have to contribute to this discussion. You can say whatever you want about me, I don't care in the first place. And what you say about THF is still groundless, apart from your personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Was that a typo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Yes, you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Yes, you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
And plenty others throughout this thread and more threads on these and other forums and even in the game.
That's inaccurate, as THF is one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea right now. THF has never needed Atma in order to tank and, in fact, I always use only DD Atma in the first place. And that doesn't work on many other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
I don't think I exaggerated one bit. We can do those things better than most jobs, some better than any job (farming and questing I wouldn't do on anything else).Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphine
SA/TA don't deal much damage, neither inside nor outside of Abyssea. And you can TA perfectly fine already when lowmanning (bar soloing). So the only thing it would do would be to increase TH even more, which I wouldn't necessarily complain about, but which definitely isn't needed on the one job that already has TH as one of its greatest advantages when lowmanning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphine
As for soloing, THF may not be as good at it as DNC or NIN, or situationally RDM, BLM or SCH, but considering it was never meant to solo, it is still better at it than almost all other jobs. Why you would want to push that, when it's still perfectly capable of efficiently lowmanning? There's almost nothing BRD+THF can't do efficiently (and no one's talking about Abyssea here), which is already too much considering that's not what it was intended for (I actually believe that SE didn't consider any job to be a solo job).
1.25*THF damage < heavy DD damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
As simple as that. I'm right, you're wrong. Nothing to argue, move along. Or stick around and keep throwing insults, I don't care much either way, you just keep making yourself look ridiculous. From my experience in over six years of playing this game and over 20 years of being alive, the "no life" card has only ever been used by people as an excuse for their own lack of skill/proficiency in any subject ranging from physical over academic to ridiculous. -
06-03-2011, 06:44 AMNeboNo it's not. Because you are making assumptions regarding Babekeke's judgement based on things you don't know. Which is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
You must play with some really bad Thieves?Quote:
Was that a typo?
lol, no I didn't. You won't find anything in either of those posts where I said those things either.Quote:
Yes, you did
No one said any of those things in this thread.Quote:
And plenty others throughout this thread and more threads on these and other forums and even in the game.
THF is not one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea now. THF duo with mage support is not tanking. Keeping hate of other melees on anything that needs a "Tank" outside of Abyssea is not something THF excells at. Particularly because you can't use SA/TA to tank, because our WS are comparatively garbage on tanked mobs without stacking and so is our relative DPS if we can't ride SA/TA timers.Quote:
That's inaccurate, as THF is one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea right now. THF has never needed Atma in order to tank and, in fact, I always use only DD Atma in the first place. And that doesn't work on many other jobs.
That said, ANY job can be made to tank with the right amount of support. BRDS, BLMS, WHMS, you name it. That does not mean THF is a good tank, or even one of the better ones. It was fundamentally designed against being able to use its JA's in this situation.
All Abyssea "tanks" use DD atma, and it works for every Abbysea DD "tank" job. Why? Because support jobs and WHM's have limitless MP, DD's have crazy boosted HP, etc. This is really basic stuff.
Perhaps if you don't gear for them properly?Quote:
SA/TA don't deal much damage, neither inside nor outside of Abyssea.
:rolleyes:LOL. I have to thank you for that. I haven't actually physically laughed out loud from a post in a long time. Keep that sense of humor alive!Quote:
As simple as that. I'm right, you're wrong. Nothing to argue, move along.
So much comedy in one post! lol. I love it!Quote:
Or stick around and keep throwing insults, I don't care much either way, you just keep making yourself look ridiculous.
Ah, there's the problem. You lack experience. That's ok, you're still young yet. Wisdom starts accumulate as you get older. It takes some longer than others, but you'll eventually experience different things and make less silly assumptions as you get older. One would hope anyway.Quote:
From my experience in over six years of playing this game and over 20 years of being alive, the "no life" card has only ever been used by people as an excuse for their own lack of skill/proficiency in any subject ranging from physical over academic to ridiculous.
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06-03-2011, 07:12 AMKarbuncleSaying that "I Don't lead a LS or join one because i have a life" is why he isn't taking you seriously, or what he was judging it on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
The context of what you said, its sounds like you're saying "LoL anyone who runs a LS or joins a HNMLS has no life". Which is something only an ignorant child would say. because its classify multiple diverse people all in 1 little group.
Its also generally used by very gimp unintelligent people who use "Real life" as an excuse to remain mediocre. Tell you, For years of FFXI, I had a full time job, School, and a GF (I still have 2/3 of those!) and I learned the game and geared myself just fine. Real life has 0 to do with it.
If thats not what you meant to say, You just need to clarify, Cause i assume this could be a misunderstanding on his part.
--------------------
More on this Specific at hand topic, Is it purposefully suppose to be about level 75 colibri parties? Cause so much has changed since 75 anything about those kind of parties is obsolete and stupid information.
THF since 75 has gotten more Dual Wield, Much better gear (For instance, i Can sift comfortably @ ~20% Triple Attack rate outside of Abyssea, With capped Haste). We have Critical hit Damage+ Job traits and gear, making Evisceration more powerful a tool than it used to be, etc.
A lot has changed. Not the least of which is much higher DEX/AGI improving our SA and TA numbers.
Now, For my opinion on THF. Its a wonderful job, but seriously cram a sock in it if you think it doesn't need fixing. This job needs so many things done. Only people who think the job is find is jealous and or/butthurt people who think Treasure hunter is so awesomely over-the-top broken. Its not that great. sure its useful for just about everything, But its not an excuse to screw THFs out of other meaningful abilities.
First off, 80% of THF abilities are completely useless in Solo/Duo groups where THF is tank. SA, TA, Hide, Flee, Mug, Steal, Despoil, Collab, Conspirator, Accomp, and in most cases these days, Even Feint.
Despoil/Steal/Mug are completely useless anyway outside of making some small bits of gil, And even so they're all worthless on NMs in abyssea, as for some reason SE thought it would be cool to give THF another Steal ability that doesn't work on things you might actually want to debuff, NMs.
THF needs to be looked at and Re-evaluated. I've given my ideas in other threads, THF is a wonderful job, But it desperately needs a boost in the DD department. It doesn't need to be pushed to the point its out-damaging Ukon WARs point for point, But pushing it to where the gap is at least not as huge as it is now would be nice.
THF was meant to be a DD and a TH, SA and TA didn't happen on accident. I dont ask for much, But maybe some boosts that actually put THF on top of the Critical Hit Rate/DMG Food-chain again.
MNK got Impetus, Which is JA that should have went straight to THF. Acc, Critical Hit Rate? Sounds THF to me. Acc+Subtle Blow? THF doesnt even get native Subtle Blow. FK Conspirator I'm sorry.
On to my Suggestions
---------------------------------------------
*Job Traits
-Give THF Critical Attack Bonus sooner and more than everyone else. They should be unique in something, Critical hit Rate and Damage should be it.
-Crit. Atk. Bonus I
Level 15 THF
-Crit. Atk. bonus II
lv 35 THF
-Crit. Atk. Bonus III
lv 55 THF
-Crit Atk. Bonus IV
lv 75 THF
-Crit. atk. Bonus V
Lv. 85 THF
-Crit. Atk. Bonus VI
lv. 99 THF
*(Bonus being Starting @ +5, +3 Each Trait, total of +20% Critical hit Damage at level 99)
Also, Give THF the Same thing with Critical hit Rate. +3% Each level, Up to level V though, For a Total of +15% Critical Hit Rate. 10/30/50/70/90 levels.
This will help THF tremendously. I mentioned this before but I'll do it again:
Give us a "Restraint" Like Ability for sneak attack and Trick Attack. Make it for Each hit landed, It increases the DEX or AGI mod for Sneak Attack/Trick Attack by 0.5, for a Maximum of +50% (meaning 100 hits to cap potency).
For Fairness Sake, Give us this ability at 91+. It is rather beef,
THF doesn't need to become the best broken DD Ever, But giving it boosts like this will shorten the gap. -
06-03-2011, 07:57 AMArconWrong, I made logical inferences on things I did know. I know that they think you can't lead a LS or be in a HNMLS without having a life, because they said so. I also know for a fact that that's wrong. So either they're lying or making groundless assumptions or looking for excuses for their own incompetence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
You must play with some exceptionally bad DDs. I can parse my own THF versus my own WAR, and the gap is quite large. So if I suck, I'd suck on both jobs, but my WAR clearly wins. And my THF is better geared, some quite nice pieces I'm still missing for WAR, while my THF is almost ideal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Tanking means keeping the mob focused on you well enough while other members in your party can perform their job to kill the mob. This includes lowman, and THF can even hold against other DDs, if they hold back (which is not really a new idea, DDs specifically did that, they even subbed /THF for TA, just so the one designated tank could hold hate) and possibly combined with strategic use of Accollaborator. Either way, it holds true for THF + Support duo as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Stack DEX for SA, AGI for TA, right? Hecatomb gear, right? Is that how you deal damage with these abilities? Think long and hard before you answer this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
You made four factually wrong statements in this post alone, and several insults to my person and my (and some innocent bystanders') intelligence. I couldn't care less what you say, you've proven repeatedly you have no idea. The irony is, this thread's idea wasn't even bad, it simply wasn't needed. No one attacked your idea, only the motivation behind it, because you said you can't land SA/TA, which is rather easy. Yet you still feel superior and are acting smug about your THF, where's the logic in that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
You're the same as kingfury, holding on to your ideas for dear life and not being able to deal with any kind of criticism other than petty insults. But instead of annoying people by saying "nuh uh, my friend" you just say "nuh uh, idiot" and think you're done with it. -
06-03-2011, 08:39 AMNeboMaybe if you hadn't merited Flee? :pQuote:
You must play with some exceptionally bad DDs. I can parse my own THF versus my own WAR, and the gap is quite large. So if I suck, I'd suck on both jobs, but my WAR clearly wins. And my THF is better geared, some quite nice pieces I'm still missing for WAR, while my THF is almost ideal.
This is WHY THF is a bad tank outside of abyssea. Because it requires all your other DD's to hold back more than better "tanks" would. You could definitely form an entire group strategy around everyone holding back and more support, sure. That does not mean THF is one of the better tanks. Many jobs are better at it, with more useful abilities to do it.Quote:
THF can even hold against other DDs, if they hold back (which is not really a new idea, DDs specifically did that, they even subbed /THF for TA, just so the one designated tank could hold hate)
You didn't know? Its AGI for SA and DEX for TA :rolleyes:.Quote:
Stack DEX for SA, AGI for TA, right? Hecatomb gear, right? Is that how you deal damage with these abilities? Think long and hard before you answer this.
To your point, some heca pieces actually have situational use for solo Sneak Attack (mainly on some boss fights etc when you couldn't melee full time and could just run in/out and SA/TA). But a good THF would not use them to SA DPS in.
lol. I have no idea? THF is fine? Arcon. Dude. THF as a job, isn't "fine." If its fine for the way you play, thats cool for you man. I don't have it in me to argue with you any more. It's counterproductive to the thread, anyway.Quote:
I couldn't care less what you say, you've proven repeatedly you have no idea. The irony is, this thread's idea wasn't even bad, it simply wasn't needed.
I've actually tried really hard up to this point to be patient, respectful and nice to you. You haven't made that an easy task. -
06-06-2011, 06:51 PMnoodles355If you insist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
1) Toolbags
2) Echo Drops
3) Twilight Dagger
4) Triplus Dagger
5) Rapidus Sax
6) AGI Killa
7) AGI Killa
8) Auric Dagger
9) Thief's Knife
10) Threw Bomblet
11) Xbow
12) Acid Bolts
13) Bloody Bolts
14) AF3 Hat
15) Aias Bonnet
16) Optical Hat
17) Denali Bonnet
18) Darksteel Cap+1
19) Love Torque
20) Peacock Charm
21) Arctier's Torque
22) Torero Torque
23) Tiercel Necklace
24) Twilight Torque
25) Suppanomimi
26) Brutal Earring
27) Raiders Earring
28) Merman's Earring
29) Merman's Earring
30) Pixie Earring
31) Ethreal Earring
32) Novia Earring
33) Af3 Body
34) Scorpion Harness +1
35) Lokis Kaftan
36) Hecatomb Harness
37) Pahluwan Khazagand
38) Avalon Breastplate
39) Darksteel Harness +1
40) Ocelot Gloves
41) AF3 Gloves
42) Denali Gloves
43) AF1+1 Gloves
44) AF2 Gloves
45) Epona's Ring
46) Dex Ring
47) Rajas ring
48) Agi Ring
49) Agi Ring
50) Merman's Ring
51) Merman's Ring
52) Dark Ring (PDT)
53) Dark Ring (PDT)
54) Boxer's Mantle
55) Nifty Mantle
56) Atheling Mantle
57) Sharpeye Mantle
58) Libeccio Mantle
59) Lamia Mantle +1
60) Twilight Belt
61) Warwolf Belt
62) Crudelis Belt
63) Scouter's Rope
64) Aguinus Belt
65) AF3 legs
66) Ocelot Trousers
67) Oily Trousers
68) Tumbler Trunks
69) Hecatomb Leggings
70) Homam Gambieras
71) AF3 feet
72) Aurore Gaiters
73) Trotters
74) Hecatomb
75) Shihei
76) Monomi tools
77) Tonko tools
Satchel:
75) Blind Bolts
76) Sleep Bolts
77) Acid Quivers
78) Bloody Quivers
79) Blind Quivers
80) Sleep Quivers
81) Pizza+1
82) Pizza+1
83) Red Curry Buns
84) Sushi
85) Warp Cudgel
86) Warp Cudgel
87) Tavnazia Ring
88) Nexus Cape
89) Kurayami Tools
90) Doton Tools
91) Katon Tools
92) Suiton Tools
93) Huton Tools
94) Hyoton Tools
95) Raiton Tools -
06-06-2011, 07:51 PMMisfitDC
I like thief just the way it is it makes me happy ^^
Good luck everybody and Have fun :D -
06-06-2011, 09:50 PMAlaik
What? You don't have some powder boots Noodles? :P
But yeah, if you don't have 75+ slots on THF of what you're *using* you can't claim your macros are that intensive. Maybe for a WAR/SAM it would be, but not a THF.
EDIT: Wrong N name. -
06-06-2011, 10:35 PMNeboActually I do :o. But I wasn't a part of that conversation :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Alaik
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06-07-2011, 01:49 AMAlaik
Yeah, all N names look alike. There, I said it.
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06-07-2011, 04:29 AMnoodles355
My bad, sorry I dont currently have powder boots actually. Back before everything was abyssea I used to carry 2 pairs everywhere. Although I only really used them on Ranger for claiming ixion. I also missed out AF1 feet for flee boost. That would put me at 78/98 slots.
Oh what, mr 60 inv thf doesn't think racc, mdt or pdt gear slots are worth perminent inv space? Acid Bolts proc on a lot of shit (especially old content like tiamat), and although eva is arguably more important than PDT, mobs still have physical AoE moves.
Oh and for the record, the above is what I'm aiming for with ideal gear. However without above ideal gear I may need 2 slots to make up for one of the above and one piece may cover something I dont have at all, and so my personal gear works out about the same. Sadly I've been out of the game for the last month or so, and so I am very behind (Although a cute Jp hostess was a fair trade for FFXI I think). Those DA/TA/Haste legs also deserve a mention.