[dev1010] Spirits

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Originally Posted by Xellith

Unfortunately for everyone who plays FFXI, the dev team has a philosophy - If nobody plays the job then don't give it updates. If people do play the job then do give it updates.

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It has more to do with nobody in the dev team, or the testing group, playing SMN. I'm sure people just job swap to SMN for the tests and says "Yea, I could summon this avatar and trigger BP, job works!".

Because the skill over cap system would never have passed if they had any serious testers that noticed that "hey, if I level up a level, my skill becomes uncapped and I lose efficiency" or "Hey, I got 50 skill over cap, which is amazing, and yet it only extends crimson howl to slightly past 1 min duration. What gives?"

I'm just glad they said "Screw this, we aren't adding SMN to FF14", so that they indirectly could admit that they haven't done a single thing correct with SMN since 2001. 10 years and still no clue how you'd make a mage function with a staff, spirits and avatars.

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Keep telling yourself that. There are studies and tests done on the subject that shows that they are useless.

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Spirit perp cost is useless. Stat atmas are not. The effect may be low, but it's not zero and anything greater than zero = more useful than spirit perp cost.

You've also obviously never don predator claws with dd atma sets- the damage increases dramatically, not slightly. Those increase your attack a lot more than avatar physical attack merits do, yes. but everything helps, whether your unscientific test says so or not. Players barely notice a difference between 5 and 10 attack, avatars are no different. I have merits in accuracy, magic accuracy, and magic attack. Even if you think the accuracy is never needed from skill +, its better to have that insurance than to waste merits on something that has no meaningful use whatsoever.

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I'm just glad they said "Screw this, we aren't adding SMN to FF14", so that they indirectly could admit that they haven't done a single thing correct with SMN since 2001. 10 years and still no clue how you'd make a mage function with a staff, spirits and avatars.

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They haven't done anything that badly wrong with summoner over its history. They've added many useful functions and unique abilities for the job. The job's only serious flaw has been and continues to be being locked down by recast timers that hinder it more than any other job is hindered by them.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You have a very...."interesting"....way of spending 5 Group 1 SMN merits.

Please enlighten us why you think making the cost of spirits the same as level 75 Avatars was a good idea and more useful than Carbuncle when he was one of the only 4 Avatars you could get for free at the time.

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Oh don't worry I have since redone my merits since then. Also I noticed spirits didn't get interrupted all that often, maybe 30-40%, which may seem like a bit much but they still casted more often then they were interrupted. Mind you I didn't find them useful on higher lvl nms/fights, to a level 75. I just found them to be a nice substitute instead of carby kiting on certain nms.

At the time my gear wasn't the all around best and I was only in a social shell that only did missions if everyone happened to be on the same page. So I felt contempt with just messing around with spirits. Nowadays I feel I've grown much more as a player, I don't carry my old stubborn "Gearing for haste is useless!" mindset anymore. I'm not saying that spirits are a untapped godsend to SMN. I'm simply stating that I had found some miniscule and highly situational uses for them and they are not flat-out "useless."

On the debate I feel the "developmental time" could have been better used to attempt to fix or add something to spirits instead of give us a new JA that only has one use every 5 mins for a little extra damage. Though I do feel the BP recasts issues still have higher priority over spirits adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Don't worry, that's not me, and that's where I become at odds with him. There are many fun and effective ways to utilize summoner. The only real problem right now is summoner in gneneral has been really minimized by the current "wait for proc/TH buildup then kill" metagame.

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That is, if you are in a party thats doing procs. Usually when I'm doing a NM as SMN with a group, its with my friends in the shell, and I already switched from WAR doing red proc and we are just pet killing. Most of the time, we do our procs as we kill, but some mobs it seems better and safer to pet kill. But if we want a certain proc, I'll come as WAR or BLM and proc it, switch to SMN real quick, and help kill it for drops.

At least, thats the way I do it. People are different, let them do whatever they want.

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Outside of abyssea it might be more necessary, but inside, with your inflated stats and DD atmas, you can keep your perp and refresh on and still perform just fine. Granted, you can take it off and probably do more damage, but it does create a sense of urgency in maintaining your MP- It's still not super difficult, because Myrkr gives so much MP back and then ups your DoT, but if you're in trouble, it could make the difference between dying and not.

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Dallas has already stated that he doesn't use Minkin at all, and that using Minkin does nothing to both the avatar and player.....yeah....

He states that damage is better for emp staff to have Regain atmas on, including Sea Daughter. Because the Slow+ offsets Haste gear and Hastaga.....yeah....but Regain is better than Refresh for a SMN.....yeah.....

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That is, if you are in a party thats doing procs.

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Which is all of them except the ones that are solo/duoing stuff.

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Dallas has already stated that he doesn't use Minkin at all, and that using Minkin does nothing to both the avatar and player.....yeah....

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It doesn't if you're in a melee SMN setup. If you're not, however, minikin is very important.

If you are doing a melee SMN setup, you are buffing physical blood pacts and you and your avatar's melee DoT. The Empyrean weaponskill returns a huge amount of MP back to you, especially if you swap into more max MP gear for it.

You do not need perp cost in every slot to offset the perp cost. Melee SMN set ups work just fine and you don't need Minikin for the refresh at all when doing it.

Minikin is a great atma for all mages, but it is not helpful when doing a melee strategy.

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He states that damage is better for emp staff to have Regain atmas on, including Sea Daughter.

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I would rather just use traditional DD atmas e.g. stout arm / voracious violet / razed ruins. But his point isn't completely without merit. High regain means better Myrkrs in less time.
Are you aware that a 300% Myrkr gives me back over 1050 MP in abyssea, as a Galka, without an optimized WS kit? Imagine how much Tarutaru SMNs get.

The reason i'd pass on Sea Daughter though is beyond Myrkr's strength in getting MP back, the best thing staff does is damage over time. The best staves have DMG ratings comprable to other 2H weapons but have a lower delay. Retribution is the best physical WS in staff's arsenal, and it's not as good as it should be, even with DD atmas. I hope we get one more set of WS and staff gets a new physical that's worth using.

However, I'm not going to tell you that Melee SMN is the only good SMN and that you're gimp if you don't do it, because that's nonsense. A SMN's strength is in the variety of things it is capable of, from support to "nukes" to spike physical damage. There is no one right way to play the job.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

They haven't done anything that badly wrong with summoner over its history. They've added many useful functions and unique abilities for the job. The job's only serious flaw has been and continues to be being locked down by recast timers that hinder it more than any other job is hindered by them.

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Well, the job is fine, except for:

- Spirits
- Wards
- All rages below level 70
- Lack of melee skills
- Lack of melee weapons
- Lack of armors

Or if you inverse the list, everything that is fine is:

- Rage pacts post level 70.

So yea, the job has no issues at all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is no one right way to play the job.

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WAR can sub /BLM all they want, doesn't mean that they won't get spanked by anyone competent. Same is true for SMN. If you are going to do something like stack magical atma for spirits, you will suck. It's not "wrong" technically, but don't do something stupid like brag about it. Bad players are bad players.

Stacking MAB for spirits wouldn't be wrong though. It is like a BLM stacking MAB. The problem lies in that it is like a BLM played by a retarded baby.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, the job is fine, except for:

- All rages below level 70

So yea, the job has no issues at all.

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Fixed that for you. There's plenty of armors, there are melee weapons, Favors and various BP wards grant melee buffs, there's plenty of armors, spirits are fine, wards are fine.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

WAR can sub /BLM all they want, doesn't mean that they won't get spanked by anyone competent. Same is true for SMN. If you are going to do something like stack magical atma for spirits, you will suck. It's not "wrong" technically, but don't do something stupid like brag about it. Bad players are bad players.

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People who play summoner differently than you is not even close to the same thing as someone choosing a bad subjob. Yes, trying to build for SPIRITS is stupid, i agree 100%, but I was speaking generally, not about this one case, and I'm sorry but playing support SMN can be useful, as can be stacking magic atma for magical blood pacts. It's not ALWAYS useful, but it can be.

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Stacking MAB for spirits wouldn't be wrong though.

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Yes, it would be, becuase if you stack those atmas, your 75+ blood pacts will do more damage, so again, there's no reason to use a spirit. Trying to use spirits for damage is about the least effective thing you can possibly do on summoner.

Edit: Fixed a double negative

Don't bother Alhanelem.

Anything Dallas says is his viewpoint, and what he thinks is good for SMN is his choice. His viewpoints about how everyone else should play SMN is incorrect though, but thats besides the point.

As for him saying that MAB atmas are worthless for SMN, spirits or otherwise, is incorrect. As Malamasala said, Spirits are just retarded BLMs, but MAB atmas are the atmas of choice for those who use spirits exclusively. Don't know why they would use them exclusively though. Attacking them for using them isn't the solution though.

Korpg, you are no Alhanelem. He knows me 100x better than you do.

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People who play summoner differently than you is not even close to the same thing as someone choosing a bad subjob. Yes, trying to build for SPIRITS is stupid, i agree 100%, but I was speaking generally, not about this one case, and I'm sorry but playing support SMN can be useful, as can be stacking magic atma for magical blood pacts. It's not ALWAYS useful, but it can't be.

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Al, you saw the thread. You should know that Korpgs arguments had nothing to do with the merits of his own playstyle. He objects to the existance and acceptance of my playstyle. He apparently plays WAR, which is why I rip on WAR.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Al, you saw the thread. You should know that Korpgs arguments had nothing to do with the merits of his own playstyle. He objects to the existance and acceptance of my playstyle. He apparently plays WAR, which is why I rip on WAR.

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I object your egotistical self-styled attitude, not the existence of your playstyle. Many times I have said you play the way you want to play. Also, I have said that telling others that "your way or highway" attitude is not helpful or realistic for everyone else. You only like him because he has an Emp Staff and I don't. I like him because he knows that there are times where you shouldn't rely on melee SMN, and therefor should have a different set for cases like that. Also that he brings reason and support for his argument, but that is besides the point.

I have shown you the fallacies of your method, you have yet to say why my method is bad. Your only argument is that the "a SMN who doesn't melee is lazy," which is not a good excuse, it is a pathetic one.

So, why not just bring the whole argument to the table instead of picking what you want to see.