Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Kingfury, your reply to me is 6 pages back, but I dont camp the forums to I was unable to replay immidately to your response.
My problem is not with you wanting to buff warrior. My problem is your suggestions without any actual prior thought to your suggestions in regards to any form of game balance. As I stated, a 37.5% increase is the same as giving every DD in the party/alliance a +60% Attack buff. That;s not huge, that's broken.

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I gotta go out now, but I'll get back to your response when I'm back in front of my screen again. Do me a favor though and break down where you're are getting the equation for your comment Noodles if you don't mind. Thanks.

People don't really see a noticable increase in attack speed from just 10% haste either, does that mean you shouldn't use any sort of haste until you can have 40% haste all the time?

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

I think that asking a WAR to sacrifice it's hardest hitting abilty (aka Weapon skill) to enfeeble a mob isn't the way to go.
If you want them to be used just make them Job abiltys but rememeber they shouldn't take the limelight from Angon or Feint

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Not as they are now, no, so I'd agree with you on that currently. If in fact GA's Breaks were strong enough effect wise, however, it would become a new battle tactic that would indeed warrant using before even the user themselves pop a ws, let alone other DD's in the party.

I say improve both Angon and Feint as well as Tomahawk moving forward to higher levels since they will be shoved into the corner of peoples mog house (if not already) after each passing update unless their effectiveness is addressed.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

People don't really see a noticable increase in attack speed from just 10% haste either, does that mean you shouldn't use any sort of haste until you can have 40% haste all the time?

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Well my point is shouldn't they see some noticeable increase? Even if it's like 1-2 seconds in-between a swing. I don't want to fight all calculations in this game, but there are tons of them that just don't make sense and should be addressed is all. ^^

But sense this is a ws we're talking about, TP is about the only modifier listed on the ws description, and it's in regards to duration. The effectiveness or "visible" effects of it working shouldn't be something that a players "wonders if it's working or not".

The answer is yes and no. Some things you are going to notice, just because of how they work in game. You will notice when your hit rate goes up by 20% (Shield Break, eva-40) because of where it is calculated in the damage formula. You won't notice other things as easily, like -25% att, because it's a factor in a larger equation. Whether *you* specifically can see the effect or not has no bearing on how good the effect actually is. This is a game of small percentages, where the difference between top tier and (above) average is very slight. What you are suggesting is that anything that isn't glaringly visible to the naked and untrained eye isn't effective... welcome to 2004, BG wants your Turban back. You don't deserve it, you can wear gear with Slow on it, and hit harder. I mean, you can't visibly see the difference between -5% attack speed and +5% attack speed, but 10 STR? That's going to make you hit harder, amirite?

Yeah, some things are best left to a parser.

Also, you are completely ignoring what I said about your att and hit rate being so high that you will barely gain anything from using a break WS... this will not change by adding more potency, once you have reached the cap, you are done. no more benefit. I would argue that Weapon Break is the most useful of the break WSs for WAR right now, since duoing is so popular, and WAR still subs SAM. Lowering enemy attack by 25% is almost guaranteed to result in at least 25% less physical damage taken, which combined with a decent pdt set would be a huge boost to WARs' tanking ability. You seem to scoff at pdt taken- gear, though. Wearing a reasonable build with 20% in it, you can't see the difference in your chat log? You can't see a removing 1 in 5 of a mob's attacks, the same as the mob missing you 20% of the time?

Also. What. The. Hell. There are tons of calculations in this game that just don't make sense to you? They should be "addressed"? I take it back. You are arrogant. It took me all of an afternoon to research damage calculations for this game years ago. I am quite possibly the slowest math-tard on the face of the Earth. What I learned is that SE somehow managed to develop an elegant, simple way to deal with combat in FFXI. Very simple. You think that a well thought out, balanced, scaling system needs to be "addressed"? Like ****. Take 3 hours to learn what you are actually asking, instead of going on about how unfiar the game design is because you can't see some huge number on your screen.

I had a good response but after I kept getting a gag reflex at terrible emote spam and fuzzy math skills I realized it would've been a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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I gotta go out now, but I'll get back to your response when I'm back in front of my screen again. Do me a favor though and break down where you're are getting the equation for your comment Noodles if you don't mind. Thanks.

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My quoted number comes from a simple maths equation:
a 37.5% decrease in an enemy's defence can be regarded as multiplying the enemies defence by 0.625. When we look at gear and decide on which pieces will be the most effective we look at the DoT increase of each individual stat, breaking them down into % increases so they can be equally compared. This is how we breakdown different DD stats like Double Attack, Haste, Accuracy, Attack, Etc etc into a single unit of data that we can compare and thus decide the most effective piece of equipment for the job. (If you want, I can provide a mathy example)

Taking the enemy's defence from 100% (normal) to 62.5% (what it would be after recieving a 37.5% defence down ability (100-37.5=62.5)) would be an increase to my DoT of: 100/62.5 = 1.6 = 160% increase to my DoT. This is where I pulled that 60% number from. Stating it's like giving a 60% attack buff was slightly inaccurate due to diminishing returns, but going into too much detail would alieanate casual players who don't care about maths!

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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Well my point is shouldn't they see some noticeable increase? Even if it's like 1-2 seconds in-between a swing. I don't want to fight all calculations in this game, but there are tons of them that just don't make sense and should be addressed is all. ^^

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No, because a 2 second decrease in delay is like 20% haste (assuming a... 400ish delay already?). Of course 10% haste shouldn't be 20%, are you crazy?

Going with what Noodles just said... it's highly unlikely that any DD would ever see the full benefit of a 60% increase in attack. If such a buff were to exist it would necessitate DDs completely reworking their gear and food choices to not include attack. That pretty much leaves... nothing. Not a damn thing for most DDs to use for food, and a vast swath of gear rendered useless, all by one WS.

Not quite,
Attack+ has a cap, eventually you will reach this. Defence Down effects for all intents and purposes don't (well, they will, but you can't get an enemy's defence lower enough for it to cap, so it's irrelevant). Even if you were completely Attack capped, a defence down effect would still increase your damage. In this case by roughly 60%. I say roughly because it depends on it's stacking with any other defence down effect, but as most do not stack (see angon and acid bolts) it's fairly reasonable to just state 60% for simplicity.

Uh, wut? Defense down, while not capping, does effect the relative cap for attack, when considering ratio. Once you have capped cRatio, all lowering defense does is lower the amount of attack needed to cap.

Two handed weapon vs. mob of equal level with 200 defense. You would need 440 attack to have capped pDIF. If you lowered the mob's defense by 25%, to 150, it would only take 330 attack.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

The answer is yes and no. Some things you are going to notice, just because of how they work in game. You will notice when your hit rate goes up by 20% (Shield Break, eva-40) because of where it is calculated in the damage formula. You won't notice other things as easily, like -25% att, because it's a factor in a larger equation. Whether *you* specifically can see the effect or not has no bearing on how good the effect actually is. This is a game of small percentages, where the difference between top tier and (above) average is very slight. What you are suggesting is that anything that isn't glaringly visible to the naked and untrained eye isn't effective... welcome to 2004, BG wants your Turban back. You don't deserve it, you can wear gear with Slow on it, and hit harder. I mean, you can't visibly see the difference between -5% attack speed and +5% attack speed, but 10 STR? That's going to make you hit harder, amirite?
Yeah, some things are best left to a parser.
Also, you are completely ignoring what I said about your att and hit rate being so high that you will barely gain anything from using a break WS... this will not change by adding more potency, once you have reached the cap, you are done. no more benefit. I would argue that Weapon Break is the most useful of the break WSs for WAR right now, since duoing is so popular, and WAR still subs SAM. Lowering enemy attack by 25% is almost guaranteed to result in at least 25% less physical damage taken, which combined with a decent pdt set would be a huge boost to WARs' tanking ability. You seem to scoff at pdt taken- gear, though. Wearing a reasonable build with 20% in it, you can't see the difference in your chat log? You can't see a removing 1 in 5 of a mob's attacks, the same as the mob missing you 20% of the time?
Also. What. The. Hell. There are tons of calculations in this game that just don't make sense to you? They should be "addressed"? I take it back. You are arrogant. It took me all of an afternoon to research damage calculations for this game years ago. I am quite possibly the slowest math-tard on the face of the Earth. What I learned is that SE somehow managed to develop an elegant, simple way to deal with combat in FFXI. Very simple. You think that a well thought out, balanced, scaling system needs to be "addressed"? Like ****. Take 3 hours to learn what you are actually asking, instead of going on about how unfiar the game design is because you can't see some huge number on your screen.

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I heard what you said earlier about all those nice facts about caps and such, but I have to keep saying that whatever is in the current code that's preventing me from seeing this ws as something noticeably effective should be adjusted so that I can see it. Regardless of the wonderful math in place, suggesting a more visible effect from the ws so it could be used more frequently is all I'm asking for. I never said it has to be over the top, just substantial enough to see the difference once the ws has been used. That's the bottom line.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] I've spent 8 years trying to understand this ever changing game that even SE has had to admit to certain mistakes they've made in certain systems, so elegant wouldn't really be the best word in describing the battle system. It is a masterpiece of programing, but like all games of this sort, it's an ever changing work in progress. In case you've been under a rock, SE has had to readjust the inner workings of nearly every in-game mechanic present in this game at least once since the game was released, so it's not "Arrogant" to suggest improvement to a damn enfeebling ws. It would be arrogant if said something like, "I'm a newly graduated game designer, and I can easily create a better enfeebling system than what SE has with my eyes close! They suck, and I'm great so suck it!" but I'm saying nothing of the sort. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

Nothing's arrogant about what I'm suggesting, so don't put words in my mouth. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] Read my post again if you need to recap. I said I'm not for imbalance, that the change doesn't need to be over powered just noticeable, that such a change would take testing and feedback. That's what I've said throughout the post.

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I never said it has to be over the top, just substantial enough to see the difference once the ws has been used. That's the bottom line.

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You aren't getting it. Plain and simple. You will never be able to see a substantial difference when one of these WSs has been used, unless somebody in your party is so lacking tat they can make use of 20% hit rate, or 25% attack. The only reasonable thing SE can do to make it more clear to you is change the chat log to reference when the WS break effect is taking place, and when it is wearing off. There is absolutely no reason for SE to change basic game code, fundamental game code, so that people like you can see tiny changes in damage like a flashing red neon sign. Get over it. It might be simple, but ti isn't 1 + 1. If you aren't smart enough to understand that, tough ****ing luck. I suggest you take up slot machines, I hear they are plenty colourful just for special cases like you.

edit - And again: you have zero understanding of what you are asking for. None.Go spend some time learning the game mechanics on wiki, then come back here and defend your ridiculous suggestions. Get butthurt asking for the least thought out 'buffs' to a job that have ever been suggested.

Get this through your ****ing skull: NO AMOUNT OF BUFF WILL EVER MAKE A GREAT AXE BREAK WS GOOD. EVER. The absolute best effect they have, def-, generally has zero ZERO zero effect on a WARs damage. ****ing zero. None.

You are flat out suggesting that SE render the entire basis of combat math obsolete so that you can ****ing see a difference in damage in your chat log. YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT YOUR RETARDED IDEA IS BETTER THAN WHAT SE HAS BEEN DOING FOR 8 YEARS+.

Holy ****ing retard Batman, I think I just got on the short bus by accident.

I tell you what, unfortunately, I am again going back and forth with someone that is NOT a game programmer in the slightest, /stagger so you have to forgive me for being frustrated with your lack of creativity on the topic at hand.

If you're bound by such things and concepts as if to think that altering game code is impossible, this is an enormous red flag that you truly don't understand game development. NOTHING is impossible if you are the one that makes the game. Absolutely nothing. I'm not asking that SE render the entire basis of combat math obsolete at all, or to alter it for some silly purpose. The facts you have listed are not beyond me, trust me, I truly understand the limitations you have repeated multiple times now. You however have failed to understand the point I'm making.

I'm not the only GA user that has no practical use for FOUR ws's in my ws list as they are. Not now, or in the coming level caps. That is a FAILING game mechanic. THAT'S NEARLY HALF OF THE STANDARD WS'S FOR GA! It doesn't take a game developer to see such a fact. Multiple posters in this thread alone have said "why even bother with these weapon skills when you could just use a damaging one?", and you still think I'm not addressing a valid issue? Weapon skills should not be left to rot in your list if they have intended use within the battle system. But rotting is exactly what they will continue to do if no attention is put towards them.

As developers of this game, IF the Dev Team was as closed-minded as you are, there would be NO SUGGESTION BOARD! Every single suggestion to adjust an in-game mechanic to work better would be swiftly met with your harsh and utter slight-sighted and empty creativity that would bash the head of any player that DARED to question the hidden game math. "THE GAME IS PERFECT AS IT IS YOU F'ING TARD!!... but thank you for your suggestion though" /wave. Sound familiar to your recent post any? /sigh

In closing, I don't expect any non creative people to view this thread and offer any constructive/creative feedback. You do well as filler post, and it's always good to attempt to elevate the thinking of others when you can. I'm not saying I'm brilliant, or smarter than anyone else, but intelligence can be shown via creativity and I know for a fact that the Devs are full of creative minds that can see a difficult and creative suggestion and see the potential in what it could do for their players. They've shown this multiple times throughout the years of developing this game, and even since the creation of these boards. Their intelligence and wisdom is what spawned this message board. You can't create a game like this without listening to the player's feedback and suggestions for change for long.

They've reworked major systems in this game based on player feedback that called for progressive change before but you seem to not remember these instances. So, again to reiterate my point, at the base of what I'm proposing, I'm calling for action to rework a system that is causing up to four ws's(and potentially more enfeebling ws's outside of GA) to be considered useless by a LARGE number of players. That is a real problem, and regardless of your ability to see it, such a problem deserves attention.

Thanks for the back and forth though, it always helps to get me to a clarifying point such as this. /take care

I think it's a great idea to retardedly overpower Full Break so that it obsoletes the collective debuffing abilities of every other melee and mage in the game all at the same time. Brilliant!

/smiles warmly at Eeek's perfectly timed response ^^

I didn't read all the thread, so I don't know if I was the first to be the voice of reason.

Probably not the first, but that's ok. The more voices of reason the merrier.

kingfury is seriously implying that he's the only open-minded person on this board by demanding some bragging rights numbers on top of his bragging rights numbers.

I think it's more likely that it would make him the only empty-minded person.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I didn't read all the thread, so I don't know if I was the first to be the voice of reason.
Probably not the first, but that's ok. The more voices of reason the merrier.

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Oh, trust me, I know you didn't take time and read anything. That's what the /smile was for ^^

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

kingfury is seriously implying that he's the only open-minded person on this board by demanding some bragging rights numbers on top of his bragging rights numbers.
I think it's more likely that it would make him the only empty-minded person.

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I'm sure with enough time, you'll formulate and fabricate in your mind that I have also single-handedly wronged everyone on every topic ever created in the history of every message board there ever was. You have a wonderfully imaginative thinker there, and should look into writing kid books.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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I'm sure with enough time, you'll formulate and fabricate in your mind that I have also single-handedly wronged everyone on every topic ever created in the history of every message board there ever was. You have a wonderfully imaginative thinker there, and should look into writing kid books.

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That put a grin on my face. You're almost adorable when you're so wrong and self-righteous.

Thanks, but since you're a taru, you easily beat me out in cuteness when you're playing that role ^^

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Originally Posted by kingfury

Thanks, but since you're a taru, you easily beat me out in cuteness when you're playing that role ^^

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Hah! Seems like you don't surpass the elvaan in lack of wit and humility after all!

I'll grant you the question "is it you, or is it me?" But you have to remember that over the duration of this thread, there have also been questions of "is it you, or is it Mrbeanman?" "Is it you, or is it TybudX?" "Is it you, or is it Zyeriis?" And so on. You yourself have admitted to being a horribly simple person, and it's quite obvious that, in spite of however many ways all the rest of us try to explain it to you, you quite simply have no idea what you're talking about.

When it's you against the world, apply Occum's razor and take the simplest option that, since you don't really know what you're talking about, and everybody else seems against you, it's best to accept that you are therefore most incredibly likely to be wrong. You'll save yourself 10 pages of time and effort that way if you do so next time.

Well that's a fair question...

I won't use any analogies this time to make sure I'm coming through clear. I think my biggest mistake in this thread, besides trying to argue with closed-minded folks, was trying to toss out possible increased values to enhance Full Break based on the "Current" in-game methods of calculating the ws's effectiveness. I'm asking for enhancements and a "reworking" of the very system that governs how the ws's effectiveness is calculated, so that was my mistake and I have to apologize for tossing it out there.

Over the course of the thread, however, I've tried to focus less on the current known calculations since there's nothing to really argue in regards to trying to enhance the ws through the current system(as in you can't fix the issue through the current systems' mechanics), and more on the problems' potential to revolutionize the aspects of enfeebling ws's and JA's (angon, Dia, feint, and tomahawk, etc.) game wide. If you can "adjust" or "reconfigure" the aspects of the current system that is causing these things to appear as weak and fruitless to the players, based on the concept of growing ever more powerful as we rise in level, a possible new and more balanced system could be born from it.

Unfortunately, once people get ahold of a concept such as, "But you just don't get it! Nothing can be done to improve this ws! NOTHING!!", it's kind've hard drive a point such as "progression" home. I'll just say, since I don't think I've said this yet(or at least in these words...I'll have to go back and check), that for the record, each one of you are right to say that based on the current battle system, it would be near impossible to enhance the enfeebling ws's in question to the point I'm suggesting. Which is a point, by the way, that is not to make it down play any other enfeebling method in the game but rather additionally bolster those other methods through it's revamping. Which is why I'm asking for such a reworking that would possibly IMPROVE the system for all.

As it stands, I am by far, not the only person that views these ws's as weak and a waist of TP, so I hope that I can be absolved from sounding like I'm the only person effected by it or that wants to see it enhanced. Am I "wrong" for wanting to have a more effective ws? Is any player wrong for wanting to see improvements to this game? If you suggested change to a current in-game system based on nothing except "what you would like to see changed", does that make you wrong? My simple answer would be no. I know there are systems in place that make the game function the way it does, but SE asked us for feedback to those systems, and that's all I'm doing. My feedback on THIS particular topic is GA has 4 ws's sitting in it's ws list that are pretty weak in terms of effectiveness, and I would like to see some enhancements of some kind to improve them. That's all.

I'll make this simple.

Want to see the full effect of Armor Break? You need to fight a mob with 1600 defense. Most mobs are around 350-400, with some HNMs having upwards of 800 or so.

Want to see the full effect of Shield Break? You need to fight mobs with higher evasion. A lot higher than what is currently out there.

It isn't the design of the WSs at fault. In order for them to be good, SE needs to make mobs that nobody would ever consider fun. Would you really like to farm some mob with 1600 defense? Or fight a mob that you could barely break 20% hit rate on, even with sushi? No, it would suck, it would take all day to do anything, just so you can have your special WSs and be able to see your big numbers. Meanwhile the rest of the player population would be wondering why SE took a giant leap back into the stone age.

edit - And yes, you are arrogant. You assume that your idea has some sort of merit, despite the fact that you know nothing about how the game is coded. You assume SE should change the entire basis of the code for your personal gain. You maintain this stance despite several people explaining to you why what you are asking for can't work. You toss patronizing language and symbols at other posters as if to say that they just aren't smart enough to know what you are talking about. I'd say that's arrogant. You're also that other term you used, what was it? Oh, retarded.

kingfury: you know what made the "gyms" thread "decent?" You describe it on a bleeding edge of detail, complete with pictures! Furthermore, it served to address a popular problem that players are having, that being lacking a decent or even fun method of gaining skillups.

This thread, however? You're basically asking "oh, could you please magically somehow make my Great Axe Weapon Skills 'look' better, and possibly some other enfeebling-style things too maybe?" And nobody needs or even wants that.

Again: One dev comment doesn't make every cussing thing from your head in to solid gold all of a sudden. See that it's not "everybody else" that's being "closed-minded," and get over yourself already. Please.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I'll make this simple.
Want to see the full effect of Armor Break? You need to fight a mob with 1600 defense. Most mobs are around 350-400, with some HNMs having upwards of 800 or so.
Want to see the full effect of Shield Break? You need to fight mobs with higher evasion. A lot higher than what is currently out there.
It isn't the design of the WSs at fault. In order for them to be good, SE needs to make mobs that nobody would ever consider fun. Would you really like to farm some mob with 1600 defense? Or fight a mob that you could barely break 20% hit rate on, even with sushi? No, it would suck, it would take all day to do anything, just so you can have your special WSs and be able to see your big numbers. Meanwhile the rest of the player population would be wondering why SE took a giant leap back into the stone age.
edit - And yes, you are arrogant. You assume that your idea has some sort of merit, despite the fact that you know nothing about how the game is coded. You assume SE should change the entire basis of the code for your personal gain. You maintain this stance despite several people explaining to you why what you are asking for can't work. You toss patronizing language and symbols at other posters as if to say that they just aren't smart enough to know what you are talking about. I'd say that's arrogant. You're also that other term you used, what was it? Oh, retarded.

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OMG... I-I... I mean... there are just no words... Y-You seriously have to be kidding me here. You honestly have the nerve to call me retarded after you've just blatantly validated the very point I've been making all along with clear examples and nice little numbers to boot? I feel strangely glad that you've stayed along talking with me all this time all of a sudden, but completely baffled at the same time. I'll help you see what I'm talking about by summing up what you just posted here. Then I'll repeat it, so you really can grasp what just happened.

Ok... The point of this thread is to ask the Dev Team to rework the ws's in question since their worth at the moment is very hard to validate with the current systems that govern it's effectiveness.

We've gone back and forth throughout this thread with each other about whether or not I was insane for asking such a thing in the 1st place since you believe the battle system is working fine the way it is. No need to change anything for my silly wants to see visible improves to the ws's.

Now stay with me here... What you've just elegantly posted above is this:
In order to make these Break weapon skills have any worth what so ever, SE would have to introduce ridiculously, imbalanced and broken enemies to the game for them to function at a level in which players could actually notice their effects taking place.

One more time:
In order to make these Break weapon skills have any worth what so ever, SE would have to introduce ridiculously, imbalanced and broken enemies to the game for them to function at a level in which players could actually notice their effects taking place....

Sir, you've just unknowingly agreed with me and proved my point to be true all in one post. That at it's current functioning, these ws's will never be of any use within the current system of things because how they are coded since we currently don't even have monsters, let alone HNMs, that would allow players to even notice the intended effects of them in-game. You've single-handedly giving "merit" to my suggestion all in one swoop. So in essence, I guess now we're both "arrogant" since we both agree and understand that the current code in place would have to warrant broken enemies into the game for these battle intended ws's to function as intended, right? Nice. There should probably be something done to address this very fact though... I dunno, maybe a revamp of some sort to the code... hmmm.

I'm glad you know as much as you do about how the game is coded eh, otherwise we could have never reached this shared understanding /hurray

Now as a disclaimer, I'm aware of this never ending loop-like trend that's occurring at this point. No matter how clearly I, or anyone else for that matter, make this point plain for you to see and understand, you'll just rummage through it and fire back with more "You're dumb/arrogant and I'm smart" mess in order to make yourself feel like the victor for some reason I can't begin to understand. After such a ground breaking post from you, I would like to extend my virtual handshake to you and end on a good note. I'll just wait to hopefully hear back from the Community Reps to see whether my suggestion is possible or not from this point. No further grade school level name calling from you is necessary moving forward. Thanks for the chat. /wave

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

kingfury: you know what made the "gyms" thread "decent?" You describe it on a bleeding edge of detail, complete with pictures! Furthermore, it served to address a popular problem that players are having, that being lacking a decent or even fun method of gaining skillups.
This thread, however? You're basically asking "oh, could you please magically somehow make my Great Axe Weapon Skills 'look' better, and possibly some other enfeebling-style things too maybe?" And nobody needs or even wants that.
Again: One dev comment doesn't make every cussing thing from your head in to solid gold all of a sudden. See that it's not "everybody else" that's being "closed-minded," and get over yourself already. Please.

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^^ Well sorry to disappoint you lol, but my Gyms post had very visual themes and concepts that warranted some extra visual aid and detailed descriptions. All of which had nothing to do with recoding of current system codes of course lol. There's not much to illustrate in regards to a "reworking of the ws's code" suggestion unless you would like to see an illustration of the reduced attack damage numbers displayed over a players head ^^ Hey if it would help explain my suggestion better for ya, I'll get right on that lol /

In regards to whether folks would need or use these ws's should they be made to function in a way that could be noticed by players during battle, ask a RDM if they use Dia III that often. Then ask them why. If not for the reasons of the quoted -15% in DEF, since that can barely be noticed, I'm sure it's for the very noticeable Damage over time which can EASILY be noticed once landed. They can kill NM's with it and all that, right? So yeah, if the effects of the Break ws's in question were indeed noticeable and effective, players would use them all the time. Well, players that know how to use battle strategies and such. Players want ws's, JA's, spells, JT's, etc. that they can see works once these things are activated.

Ahhh, and there you go fantasizing again >< I don't post with such things on my mind Tamar, I just post about things that I have concerns about and things that I would like to see addressed. I'm going to draw a Taru based on you that wears a T-shirt with the word "Hater" printed on it if you keep coming up with this kind of stuff for no apparent reason ^^ And yes, he will have Tamarsamar hovering over his head.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Uh, wut?

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Yeah, for some reason my brain melted and I was concidering defence down as physical damage taken+. Serves me right for posting drunk.

It's ok, I actually had to open wiki to see if I was being wooshed or not. It's been so long since I've looked at the formulas I wasn't sure if I was remembering them correctly.

And kingfury. I just don't know. The reason you are feeling completely baffled is because you are an idiot. I have been trying to show you in simple terms why adjusting the break skills can't work. Are you seriously trying to turn the points I brought up around on me when you had zero comprehension of what I was even talking about before I raised them?

Where did you ever suggest making all mobs IT+++++? Are you now saying that's a reasonable solution to what (only) you see as a problem?

No, all I see is you clinging to your stupid notion that you should be able to eyeball some super jump in damage when you use your uber break weapon skills. I explained why you don't see it, so you suggest changing the formulas for combat... so you can see more damage!

I just want you to answer one question. Lets say SE follows your example, and removes the caps on cRatio and hit rate. When you have 100% accuracy, drop your Shield Break II, and still can't see that extra 50% hit rate you should have gotten, will you expect SE to change the laws of physics for you?

Nah, obviously every percentage above 100 should turn into +1% double attack!
But because you can't "eye" a difference in 1% DA, it should probably be 50% DA per percentage above 100.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TybudX

It's ok, I actually had to open wiki to see if I was being wooshed or not. It's been so long since I've looked at the formulas I wasn't sure if I was remembering them correctly.
And kingfury. I just don't know. The reason you are feeling completely baffled is because you are an idiot. I have been trying to show you in simple terms why adjusting the break skills can't work. Are you seriously trying to turn the points I brought up around on me when you had zero comprehension of what I was even talking about before I raised them?
Where did you ever suggest making all mobs IT+++++? Are you now saying that's a reasonable solution to what (only) you see as a problem?
No, all I see is you clinging to your stupid notion that you should be able to eyeball some super jump in damage when you use your uber break weapon skills. I explained why you don't see it, so you suggest changing the formulas for combat... so you can see more damage!
I just want you to answer one question. Lets say SE follows your example, and removes the caps on cRatio and hit rate. When you have 100% accuracy, drop your Shield Break II, and still can't see that extra 50% hit rate you should have gotten, will you expect SE to change the laws of physics for you?

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The fourth grade must be fun eh?

And you see what I meant by this never ending loop right? Great gooses man. /sigh
My point is, I didn't need a formula to understand the ws is utterly useless to me man, I've tested the darn thing for years. You're the one tossing up the number argument. I actually believe you have taking a few hours out of your days to dig around the wiki for these numbers, so I trust your findings you've posted enough to make valid that you see the problem at hand with the ws's. Don't get mad at me since you've come to terms with what I was saying all along is in fact valid; the GA's Break ws's are about as useless as a Bow and arrow made out of wet noodles. Name calling won't change your new found understanding I'm afraid /stagger lol

Even after agreeing with me, you still have steam left to mush on eh? I'll leave this sad example of a debate to rest now if you please. It's not very rewarding to have a mental battle with someone that prefers to toss poop once they've been reduced to having no argument y'know.

Please, don't pretend to attempt to talk creatively with such a condescending and belittle tone. It's like a fat person trying to walk lightly. It's counter productive. If the Devs consider my suggestion, they will do so with a creative and balanced mindset that would benefit the entire game. That much I'm sure of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Nah, obviously every percentage above 100 should turn into +1% double attack!
But because you can't "eye" a difference in 1% DA, it should probably be 50% DA per percentage above 100.

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lol (*Joking Tone Here*) You forgot to hit your own "Like" button again! ^^ (*A JOKE* so don't get pissy yeah)
I /laughed at your post ^^

the only reason you would say that is because you do that yourself

lol you can check my post if you like ^^ Aww c'mon now where's the smiles? i was just pullin your chain

Faux-happiness is irritating.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Faux-happiness is irritating.

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I agree, but so is a group of salty folks with a lack of humor >< lol I gotta break the repetitive "I'M MAD AT YOU!" tone somehow right? ^^

Plus, I'm not angry at anyone on this thread. I wouldn't dare invest "heavy" emotion on such a thing as a suggestion board ^^ The level of seriousness throughout this thread is no different from what I've dealt with in-game for years. Folks throw temper tantrums all day, every day inside FFXI when they don't agree with you. It's the status quo it seems for most folks to get to the "name calling", "belittling", "Calling you crazy for daring to think outside the box" I've found, so I'm pretty use to this sort of thing. At the end of the day, we're having a "so called" debate over an online game. Seriously losing your giblets over such a thing really isn't worth it. Even the weak attacks tossed at me are taken with humorous tone.

I'm not faking happiness at all, so by all means, no need to ruin your day over anything posted here. ^^/

Though it is pretty sad when you can type (*JOKING TONE*) and people still twist their panties >< lol

All the flame aside, I can understand the desire for improving useless WS. After all, no one uses them like they are now, so why are they even in the game?

Personally I had a hard time wrapping my head around this argument, because I don't like "idle" content, content that is just there but serves no purpose. However, that content is what makes up 95% of the game. And if you think about it, look at the sheer amount of content the game has right now. This extends far beyond weapon skills. Gear is probably the best/worst example of how this imbalance has progressed.

Why don't you use level 7 leather gear at level 75+? Because there's better options. Tons and tons of better options. And there's tons and tons of better options than those aforementioned better options. I'd like to say that 90% of all gear in the game is obsolete. And know what? It's at lower levels too. There's both armor and weapons that simply aren't worth getting, even at their appropriate levels.

What about spells? Why don't high level BLMs don't use Stone II anymore? Zones, why is no one going to Carpenter's Landing or Dangruf Wadi?

The list goes on and on. And it's the exact same thing here. Some WS are meant to be better than others. At some point, WS are simply outdated. And know what? Compared to other items mentioned before, these WS aren't even that useless. Maybe with the way the game currently plays, but the effects of these WS are based on the number of people an in alliance. There's always one WAR who is simply subpar. Their Raging Rushes don't exceed 600 damage, they whiff for 80% of the time and they are slow to mele/engage. They are often better off using a Break WS than actually trying to deal damage themselves. And good WARs? Simply ignore those WS, they are outdated. They already have plenty of useful WS, compared to other jobs, Raging Rush, King's Justice and Steel Cyclone all have a justification to be used. And now Ukko's Fury dominates them all.

The sooner you wrap your head around the fact that some things are meant to die, the better. Because it's unrealistic the opposite will happen. Why should all WS be good in the first place? Which one would you use? You want a different WS for all two hundred different situations? It's simply not meant to be.

@ Arcon: Now here's a valid debate that's devoid of the crap, so thanks for the breath of fresh air.

I can see your points, and you make a good argument with them, but lets look at it another way for second. Yes, you're absolutely correct that Items, Food, Weapons, and most of all Gear should in fact fit inside the logic "that some things are eventually meant to die or become outdated". These things are satellite concepts to the one true scaleable and growing theme inside this game which happens to be "The Player". Even though the Devs are attempting to change that to some degree with Synergy Augments soon, and has done a GREAT job with weapons via the Trial of the Magians system, the fact will remain true, that far superior options are of course awaiting us as time goes on.

But look back to the "ever growing and evolving Player". Job abilities, Spells, and weapon skills really shouldn't fit in the same category as the above mentioned items in my opinion. I believe they should be just as scaleable and ever-growing as we are because they are tied to our growth as players. Players don't receive new weapons/gear once they've leveled up or acquired enough skill using a weapon, but they do receive new weapon skills and job abilities. It's not that they can't be made to be scaleable. With the similar logic of what was put into the Trial of the Magians system, technically speaking the Devs could /toss out things like spell tiers all together and have stuff like "STONE(+1-6)", and "CURE(+1-6)" in an effort to make such things scaleable as we increase in level and grow more powerful. The "Merit Point System" was in essence a very simplified Trial of the Magian system for JA's if you think about it. You had to go out and do stuff (gain exp) to then return to the system and "turn in" your required currency (merit points) to improve your JA's. So if you see it as it would be seen via the Trial of the Magians system, it would look like "Berserk+2" and "Double Attack+5" and so on. One of the biggest problems with the Merit Point system in fact was that we didn't get to pick from a list of all our abilities when deciding which JA we wanted to enhance. The same goes for the TotM weapons. The Devs decided for us.

Take Berserk for instance. It's a level 15 JA that still has use at level 90. That's scaleability right there lol, and it's as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Weaponskills should be just as scaleable right? Not to say that one ws is "more useful" than the other, cause that would warrant change to the game if things are non useful, but rather have "different uses" during battle.

A good WAR, or player for that matter, understands both offense and defense in this game and how to balance both based on the situation in front of them. Trying to run in and do high amounts of damage ALL the time for every situation is a quick way of getting yourself K.O.'d most of the time. Strategy is what is bred from our weapon skills and Job abilities. Now imagine for a moment that the Break ws's used on GA were just as effective now at lvl 90 as they were the day a player received them. Wouldn't that breed more strategy during battle vs trying to only do the most melee damage? As you know, some monsters in this game just don't accept that type of strategy.

In terms of distinguishing which ws deals the most damage over another, this too bothers me to some extent. Well it bothers a LOT of players in fact lol. Just look at the changes that are about to made to Relics based on just such a debate. It makes no sense that ws's should be outdated as we rise in skill levels and power, and frankly it pissed those people off that they worked their butts of to achieve these weapons and ws's only to find they are poop compared to new weapon skills. So what did SE do? They listened! They agreed that this should not be the case, and are making the effort to CHANGE the current coding around to balance it out. I'm suggesting such change based on the same principles towards these Break weapon skills.

If it sounds crazy to others, it's just because it's too far out of the box for them to understand that I'm simply asking for balanced natural progression of the abilities we receive whether early on at low levels or in upcoming version updates. Just like Relic ws's, I believe these beginning ws's should follow the same suit of scaleability as our JA's.

Again thanks for posting a valid argument devoid of the kiddy crap. /salute

Kingfury, here's the deal...

I, along with many other people here, have participated in brainstorming sessions in our academic and professional lives. Tossing out bad ideas is part of the process - silly, terrible, improbable, and infeasible ideas tend to be sparks for good ideas. It's important, however, to assess and separate the ideas objectively and without passion. No one respects or thinks highly of the person who goes to the mat tirelessly defending every idea, good and bad. It bogs down the process.

While I believe it's ultimately unnecessary, the "Gyms of Vana'diel" concept was a decently good idea. It remains to be seen whether or not that concept will see implementation into FFXI in one form or another, but it wouldn't surprise me to see implemented later on in the year.

Here's the problem though: you passionately defend every one of your ideas as if they're as good as the "Gyms of Vana'diel" concept. Here's the naked truth - both the Evolith concepts and the overpowered Great Axe Weaponskills concepts are bad ideas, but you seem unable to differentiate between your good and bad concepts. You adamantly defend all of them - without acknowledging any valid criticisms. What the rest of us view as valid criticisms you view as personal attacks, and that's just not the case. It's counterproductive.

Here's an example:

On the forum's first day, I created a (lulzy) thread in the Black Mage forum: "Job Trait: Auto-Refresh?" In the OP, I argued that Black Mages still suffered from MP problems outside of Abyssea, and that we could use an Auto-Refresh Job Trait to address the problem. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but other posters rightfully disagreed with me and shot down my bad idea.

But...

My bad idea sparked a good idea from another poster! In the thread's second post, Teakwood (along with other posters) argued that /RDM and several new pieces of Refresh gear, MP wasn't nearly the problem that it used to be. He also mentioned something I did not know: all mobs in FFXIV have MP pool for mages to Aspir. He also, correctly, made the distinction between playing BLM around aspirable mobs and non-aspirable mobs and that they're completely different ballgames.

From my bad idea sprung Teakwood's good idea: instead of tacking an Auto-Refresh Job Trait on to BLM, would it be possible to adjust FFXI mobs as to give all of them MP pools? Instead of Auto-Refresh, BLMs could instead make more use of their Aspir spells. This kind of adjustment would also benefit mages other than BLM. I know I'd love to be surrounded by Aspirable mobs at all times!

Kingfury, intelligent posters here will not take you seriously again until you're able let your bad ideas go and leave them to rest. You need to be able to differentiate between good and bad concepts, and you need to be able to identify, and even expand upon, good ideas that evolve from the ashes of your bad ideas. It's perfectly natural, professional, and people would respect you more.

And lastly, your signature does you no favors. It's cocky and arrogant. You're no more a developer than the rest of us.