BLU Balance

BLU had 10% magic haste at 75. It has 30% + MG now.

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Originally Posted by Immortta

Um you do realize that trusts can caste Haste II right in your scenario of duoing/soloing content? *roll eyes*

I guess when we're all GEO for every single fight in the game it doesn't matter
I guess when we're all mage strats for 90% of end game for years it doesn't matter

I'm not gonna throw all the jobs under the bus atm, but there are quite a few that do very well nowdays and not just BLU.

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So it sounds like this is a no-brainer. Blu has trusts like every other job, so removing haste from MG won't even be a nerf. Blu can call a Trust for haste like all the other jobs.

Of course blu can call trusts like every other job. The whole point of trusts is that they can make up for abilities and spells your own job lacks. People playing solo with trusts shouldn't even care about blu, especially since hey, you're solo, it's not like you have to compete against a blu for your trusts to invite you to a party.

Because I do have the suspicion that all this hate against blu really is about other melee jobs feeling inferior. They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself. Most people who do runs with statics or shells actually do have a chance to play on their other melees if they have actually taken the time to learn them, gear them, and play them well, because the rest of the group have learned to trust them to do their job, The problem with PUGs is that they have no idea who you are or what you're capable of, so they err on the side of caution and ask for strangers to come jobs that have a simple role (do you have X spell?). And I'm not saying blu in regular play is simple, as it does take skill and time and gear, but for a fight that lasts 3 minutes (because I think all this complaining we're seeing pop up right now is really just from this month's ambuscade) the blu really doesn't have much of a role beyond "buff, ES, subduction, hit mob". So I'm sorry if your server's PUG leaders don't want your WAR, DRK, SAM, whatever, but why don't you try actually starting your own shouts? Or why don't you make some friends so you don't have to resort to shouting? If that seems impossible on your server, maybe change servers? I have friends who shout for PUGs all the time on Bismarck, and we have a good enough mix of jobs geared that we couldn't care less what dd they choose come on as long as they can actually hit the mob. And I'm sure you won't hear that dd job complain that one of us came on blu and used MG to make his own life easier.

It's obvious there is a fundamental disconnect, or straight up bullshitting going on here.

In the world of everything works fine and everyone is average or better, blu is nothing special. Blu is a meh DD.

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

It takes more effort (not that ffxi takes more than the smallest amount of effort) to be a good not-blu dd. Blu is blindfold zero effort no macro easy to be amazing. (there are obviously terribadblu's though).

Vae's post is probably the most unbiased post in the thread.

Protip: Vae is always right, always honest, never biased. I've been on both sides, played ENTIRELY too long.

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Originally Posted by Vae

It's obvious there is a fundamental disconnect, or straight up bullshitting going on here.

In the world of everything works fine and everyone is average or better, blu is nothing special. Blu is a meh DD.

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

It takes more effort (not that ffxi takes more than the smallest amount of effort) to be a good not-blu dd. Blu is blindfold zero effort no macro easy to be amazing. (there are obviously terribadblu's though).

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It's funny that BLU went from one of highest skill ceiling class to one of the lowest. If I was a BLU main right now I'd be agreeing with and starting huge movements to nerf my class so that it isn't so easy and bandwagoned.

Back in the day you had to use ALL your tools as a Blu, and use them efficiently and effectively, to be worth your slot. Now you just mash the CDC button and keep up a few buffs.

BLU mains seem to not care about that for some reason. The current state of BLU is an abomination and I have no idea why BLU mains are fighting to keep it in it's current state.

See, there are different kinds of people.

The blu "mains" don't want it nerfed so they can stay OP, obviously. They spent 500m on lawlmaceglow and zona, and don't want them to look stupid. REAL blu's want the scrubs off their job. Objective people just want to be able to play the dd they like and not feel like shit.

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Originally Posted by Vae

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

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Show me a video where the BLU you just described is demonstrating "devastating" power.

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Originally Posted by Vae

When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

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This helps put the entire issue into context and changes the discussion altogether.

I get criticized by my friend for doing this, probably because I'm usually quite blunt about it, but I'd suggest teaching those RDMs to keep Haste up, the GEOs to JP/gear up for 900+ skill and ensuring DDs can hit their targets before asking the development team to divert precious time into nerfing a job that, to quote you, "is nothing special" in a world where everyone is average or better.

Priorities and all that.

LOL. so extra credits on youtube, just completely posted exactly the disconnect with ffxi. (using overwatch).

TLDW: Premade groups (ls's) vs pickups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEpeGSFQ1tM

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Originally Posted by Vashkoda

Of course blu can call trusts like every other job. The whole point of trusts is that they can make up for abilities and spells your own job lacks. People playing solo with trusts shouldn't even care about blu, especially since hey, you're solo, it's not like you have to compete against a blu for your trusts to invite you to a party.

Because I do have the suspicion that all this hate against blu really is about other melee jobs feeling inferior. They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself.

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Sure, you can pretend the balance/design issue doesn't exist by playing with ls/friends, make your own party, job change to BLU, deal with lack of haste, whatever.

But it's like an ugly looking person that breaks all the mirrors in his house so he doesn't have to see his own face, thus able to pretend he looks beautiful.

Or a Chocobo buries his head in the sand and ignoring what happens to the outside world.

Or pre-lockstyle era that players do .dat mods so they can pretend their gear combination visually looks appealing.

Asking people to play with ls/friends, make their own pt, job change to BLU doesn't change the fact that there's an issue with design, it only solves individual player's personal problems.

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Originally Posted by Vashkoda

They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself.

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My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?

Back in the past people asked for BST nerf, SAM nerf, THF rudra nerf, WAR MNK nerf, all the time.

In fact there's one very, very vocal BLU in FFXI community(not naming names) that always run around asking BST nerf, and went "SAM needs nerf ASAP" in SAM discussion when he thinks those jobs had advantage over other jobs.

And now that BLU has slight advantage over other jobs, this same BLU suddenly jump into every single BLU discussion and essentially attack anyone that asked for BLU job adjustment.

This is double standard. Back when people ask for BST, SAM, WAR, MNK, THF or whatever job to be nerfed, there weren't massive wave of anti nerf opinions like today. Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.

I'll tell you why design issues, regardless of the jobs, needs to be adjusted. Because that's the whole point of game design. SE as a game dev, it's their job to work on adjustments to designs. If you play a fighting game and every player picked same char in tournament, or if you play a RTS game and every player picked same side, it's called bad games. MMORPG is the same.

Therefore us as a player, our job is to provide feedback when we notice issues in design, to help them create a better game.

Just because MMO can never be truly balanced, doesn't mean dev and playerbase shouldn't work toward this goal.

Therefore comments like "just play BLU!!!" or "just deal with the lack of haste!!!" or "just play with friends!!!" really shouldn't be in a design balance discussion as it doesn't solve any issue from game design pov, it only solve individual player issue of not getting pt invite.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

This helps put the entire issue into context and changes the discussion altogether.

I get criticized by my friend for doing this, probably because I'm usually quite blunt about it, but I'd suggest teaching those RDMs to keep Haste up, the GEOs to JP/gear up for 900+ skill and ensuring DDs can hit their targets before asking the development team to divert precious time into nerfing a job that, to quote you, "is nothing special" in a world where everyone is average or better.

Priorities and all that.

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Except RDMs aren't even in most regular melee pt setup due to the lack of strong aoe cure/cure skin/aoe -na and weaker bars. Even if supports can keep haste up none BLU DDs still not gonna cap haste.

And even in situations that you DO use RDM, none BLU DDs still need MG to cap haste unless you wanna waste precious bubble slot.

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Therefore comments like "just play BLU!!!" or "just deal with the lack of haste!!!" or "just play with friends!!!" really shouldn't be in a design balance discussion as it doesn't solve any issue from game design pov, it only solve individual player issue of not getting pt invite.

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I agree that "just play BLU" is a stupid defense, but if you don't like how other people are building groups. Build your own groups. The only thing that can be said for "just play BLU" is that clearly, some of the complainers have no idea what they're talking about. Should at least play a job before you try to state how OP it is.

Valefor may be a low pop server but it doesn't suffer from a blu craze. I see lots of jobs going to Ambuscade and lots of nuking jobs at anything remotely serious. However, I can appreciate that people who insist on stacking BLUs in any and all content must get pretty old.

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Originally Posted by Afania

My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?

Back in the past people asked for BST nerf, SAM nerf, THF rudra nerf, WAR MNK nerf, all the time.

In fact there's one very, very vocal BLU in FFXI community(not naming names) that always run around asking BST nerf, and went "SAM needs nerf ASAP" in SAM discussion when he thinks those jobs had advantage over other jobs.

And now that BLU has slight advantage over other jobs, this same BLU suddenly jump into every single BLU discussion and essentially attack anyone that asked for BLU job adjustment.

This is double standard.

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He asked for a nerf. You are asking for a nerf. I'm sure he was met with both support and resistance, just as you are being met with both support and resistance. Where's the double standard?

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Originally Posted by Afania

Back when people ask for BST, SAM, WAR, MNK, THF or whatever job to be nerfed, there weren't massive wave of anti nerf opinions like today. Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.

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This made me laugh because it seems the answer to your problem continues to elude you, despite being right under your nose.

Job imbalances become easy to detect if they involve mechanics that everyone wants to exploit, which is the case that's been made, so if the dev team takes the time to monitor its servers and the number of people playing BLU over a period of time rises to an unacceptable level you can be sure they would address the issue even if there was no forum feedback whatsoever. Ergo, "Go play BLU" isn't an excuse - I'm not even sure how you've come to define it as such - it acts as a means to an end and doubles as a devastatingly powerful job choice if you happen to share the beliefs of others asking for a nerf, so hey, why not, right?

http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/u...ins-quotes.gif

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I agree that "just play BLU" is a stupid defense, but if you don't like how other people are building groups. Build your own groups.

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I build groups all the time, I build Ambu vol2 pt for casual players, I build UNM 135 pt for returning players, I build woc melee pt and master trials pt for top end players with near perfect gear in every slot and uses scripts to minimize human errors. Outside of SV honor march situations, I don't have some sort of magic that can magically generate 1 free GEO bubble while keeping every DD fully hasted.

Building your own groups doesn't change the fact that MG mechanic still has a flaw.

Again, this is a design mechanics discussion, not personal circumstance discussion. It doesn't matter whether you play with robots, high end players, casual players, returning players, and it doesn't matter whether you organize pt or not.

You aren't going to bypass the limitation of losing 1~0.5 GEO bubble without SV.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

He asked for a nerf. You are asking for a nerf. I'm sure he was met with both support and resistance, just as you are being met with both support and resistance. Where's the double standard?

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Exactly who was against SAM nerf in 2014? Even some of the most hardcore SAM players in the community at that time agreed SAM needed a nerf. There definitely weren't this massive wave of anti nerf people in 2014 saying the job in question is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Job imbalances become easy to detect if they involve mechanics that everyone wants to exploit, which is the case that's been made, so if the dev team takes the time to monitor its servers and the number of people playing BLU over a period of time rises to an unacceptable level you can be sure they would address the issue even if there was no forum feedback whatsoever. Ergo, "Go play BLU" isn't an excuse - I'm not even sure how you've come to define it as such - it acts as a means to an end and doubles as a devastatingly powerful job choice if you happen to share the beliefs of others asking for a nerf, so hey, why not, right?

http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/u...ins-quotes.gif

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Suggesting people "go play BLU" is fine, saying design adjustment shouldn't happen because you can just play BLU isn't. And the msg I kept getting from people.

So just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard? Like, if somehow the haste property were weakened or removed then people would be happy?

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Originally Posted by detlef

So just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard? Like, if somehow the haste property were weakened or removed then people would be happy?

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Diffusion MG is (most) of the issue. Embrava was *broken* so how is MG not, seriously. They're the same god damn spell. (obviously hyperbolic).

1200 Gift is the rest of the issue.

Other issues that would be less broken, once those two are fixed.

If they nerfed Diffusion-MG I would accept it in 1 second if it meant that people would bitch about MNK or BRD instead.

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Originally Posted by detlef

If they nerfed Diffusion-MG I would accept it in 1 second if it meant that people would bitch about MNK or BRD instead.

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Ha. Mnk has been left out in the cold basically since delve 2. Kind of funny but it's kind of a worse pup now when before was the opposite. Likewise brd has been out of favor since they first started buffing geo... well that and fights/fights made rotating brds or prebuffing and dropping less good

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Ha. Mnk has been left out in the cold basically since delve 2. Kind of funny but it's kind of a worse pup now when before was the opposite. Likewise brd has been out of favor since they first started buffing geo... well that and fights/fights made rotating brds or prebuffing and dropping less good

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By that I meant that people should be focusing their energy on getting those jobs buffed. They are both obviously in a bad place right now.

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Originally Posted by detlef

By that I meant that people should be focusing their energy on getting those jobs buffed. They are both obviously in a bad place right now.

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If you like to see people complain about MNK and BRD, why don't you just focus some of your energy on creating another thread called "MNK and BRD balance"? That'd get the result you want.

I have said, and will continue to say I don't think BLU deserves a nerf. If it was breaking the game by exploiting something I would absolutely agree with Afania's crusade. The whole capping haste aspect is fairly irrelevant on dual wield jobs. You can cap delay on all the jobs that have natural dual wield.

If they were to nerf something, it should be CDC. That is the aspect that changed things really. It isn't the strongest weaponskill, but it isn't very far behind the strongest WS and it is the most skillchain friendly.

The PUG aspect of this discussion is laughable to me, if you're going to play with bad player that is not the developers fault, that is the players fault. Make your own party, make some friends. If you want to join a PUG, it is the leader's rules. If you don't like that aspect once again, make your own party.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

If it was breaking the game...

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See, but it -is- breaking the game. If more than half the people are all playing the same job when there is 15 different options, something is very clearly broken. This is an obvious fact. It isn't debatable.

Nothing was inherently broken about crits in 2012 when ukko's and Vsmite were nerfed. They were just too popular. We do more damage and higher crit rates than we would've ever dreamed of 4 years ago.

That is quite the exaggeration on your part on half. Right now on Leviathan there is 326 people online, 53 are Blue Mage. Which is 16.2% or so. Being popular does not equate broken.


That was a different time in the game, just like Kiaru posting about how at 75 Blu had 10% magic haste. You have to put it in perspective. Back at 75, a lot of jobs didn't cap gear haste. The game has evolved, the level cap has been raised.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

That is quite the exaggeration on your part on half. Right now on Leviathan there is 326 people online, 53 are Blue Mage.

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Of the DD, not the total population. And discount /anon.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

Being popular does not equate broken.

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To square it does. It's damaging to mmo population. Variety is why ~15 DD jobs exist.

Just because they made a decision four years ago under different Developers, doesn't mean that applies now. Like I said, perspective. The game is far different than it was even four years ago.

It still applies now or they would obviously revoke the nerf. It's that status quo. MNK would benefit quite a bit from revoking that Vsmite nerf.

No one debates that H2H in general is awful right now. So, basically you don't think the job is broken, you think it is popular so it should be nerf'd. Okay

I know no one likes to admit it but MNK -should- be at the bottom. It was the top for a long damn time. Punching something does alot less theoretical damage than a giant axe. (not that logic has ever held a place in fantasy).

BLU is -absolutely- broken. its traits are broken. cdc is broken. survivabilty is broken. self haste and MG are broken. I said that all already. But even if you can't agree on that you know and so does everyone else the popular job GETS nerfed. End of story. It's going to happen. the question is when. It not just an ff thing. its a qol thing for all players of all games.

Blu jp is definitely something they got right, but the chasm there is that so many jobs got mediocre or downright terrible. JP, they should be buffed and changed because they're awful.

JP should feel like leveling up and many jobs don't.

Monk has some tankish jp when they couldn't truly tank (enmity, dt) anything remotely serious.

With enough delay reduction, not hard to achieve even with just trusts, their MA gifts are bad for the job.

Half of monk's problem is that h2h always seems like an uneasy spot between 1h and 2h. It gets love when SE directly targets it.

I don't play monk in years but have a handful of ideas to improve it.

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Originally Posted by Afania

My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?
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Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.

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No one is stopping you from expressing your opinions; you're doing it right now. But in order to have a productive discussion, I think we need to be clear on what the issues are. Obviously the issues have not been expressed clearly, otherwise you wouldn't have people asking "is this thread the result of people not getting jobs in PUGS for everyday content" or "just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard?" And just because those particular aspects might not apply to *you*, it doesn't mean they don't matter to other players. The impression I have had is that most of the griping is indeed coming from other melee jobs feeling they are being edged out of PUG invites by blus. And the solutions that have been mentioned, which included starting your own shouts, finding statics/shells who can learn to trust you on those other jobs, or even just making sure everyone remembers how to play properly (eat food, use acc gear, get GEOs with 900 skill, remind mages to haste you) were legitimate options for people in those situations.

I'm happy for you that you have access to top geared players and are doing endgame content. If you have access to honor march, why are you complaining about a blu's MG? If your groups have access to lionheart RUNS and other heavy dds that have the potential to out-dd blu, why are you complaining about BLU damage? I'm actually surprised that you complain about BLU in endgame at all, since that's not generally where they shine. Sure you save a entrust GEO slot (assuming you don't have honor march, which you apparently do), but in endgame content you also generally bring more than one GEO, unless you are lowmaning just for the challenge of it. So you feel that having a BLU spare you one of 5 geo buff slots is too OP?

I do think that in order to have this discussion, clear distinctions have to be made about what level of game play you're addressing. You seem to think everyone is in denial except you, but it's possible that your experience in the game is just different from everyone else's, so people are having a hard time seeing from your POV and meeting you half way. And maybe it would help if you also acknowledged some of the points others in here are making, so we see that you are also trying to have an honest discussion.

As for the game design being flawed, I actually liked the points that that Overwatch video brought up that someone linked to. It's really hard to balance a game while allowing multiple jobs to keep their own unique style. And as the video brought up, *individual playstyle* is in fact an important consideration for the devs. And that's a point that people in here have been trying to make for the last few pages.

Being at the bottom damage wise, and being outclassed in weaponskill damage by pure mage classes such as WHM is another thing.

CDC is not exclusive to BLU, but I agree about CDC. The traits are how the job was designed from the beginning of the job. If you removed the JT bonus from gifts, people would just set the DD traits, so it would essentially change nothing for the PUG aspect people are complaining about. Nerfing CDC or removing defense from MG would achieve what people are hoping for. A damage reduction while keeping utility, or a survivablity reduction. Mostly, I think some people on this forum and the other one that has had this same discussion are bloviating at how strong it is, and how weak other jobs are. Or, just posting for attention/trolling with no idea what they are talking about.

You realize, how many FREE points, the job gift gives right. Blu is only allowed to set 80 points, but the gifts TRIPLE their value. No other jobs gets even close to that same value.

Most people have a bit left over for utility spells. People would set DW3, STP2 or 3, triple attack and be done with it traits wise.

Uh, no. Critical bonus. Skill chain bonus. Attack bonus. Acc bonus. FIVE TIERS OF IT FFS. that's absolutely broken holy shit. come on.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

Being at the bottom damage wise, and being outclassed in weaponskill damage by pure mage classes such as WHM is another thing.

CDC is not exclusive to BLU, but I agree about CDC. The traits are how the job was designed from the beginning of the job. If you removed the JT bonus from gifts, people would just set the DD traits, so it would essentially change nothing for the PUG aspect people are complaining about. Nerfing CDC or removing defense from MG would achieve what people are hoping for. A damage reduction while keeping utility, or a survivablity reduction. Mostly, I think some people on this forum and the other one that has had this same discussion are bloviating at how strong it is, and how weak other jobs are. Or, just posting for attention/trolling with no idea what they are talking about.

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So destroy other jobs by gimping a WS to balance BLU when changing BLU alone could solve the problem while not attacking others as well.

MG Doesn't need defence removed, it needs to be changed from a mini Embrava to what the spell always was, a spell that gave you Shell and Protect, while NOT stacking with the White Magic spell, it also should NOT be locked to a JA.

Absolutely no way should a job with a self-cast Haste 30% spell get another spell that grants even more haste that stacks, Defense and Magic Defense that stacks with Shell and Protect and Regen. and if they want that, then it should be an even shorter duration.

Was just going off the top of my head. You would be able to equip DW3(16), TA(16), STP2(11), Skillchain Bonus(6), Crit bonus (6), acc bonus from nature med(6), and then you have flutter(6)

That is 67, leaving you 13 points to buff any DD traits you want or go utility. Like I said, it wouldn't change much.


As to Jakuk, because you act like BLU is the only one that exploits CDC. RDM as a DD is very powerful as well with Temper II. What RDM lacks is melee gear without restrictions. The Jhakri set lacks haste, the Taeon set lacks STP etc. You can mix/match because of Ambuscade capes, but is is hindered by gear, not the job.

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Originally Posted by Vae

but the gifts TRIPLE their value. No other jobs gets even close to that same value.

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Haha, not always true.

Accuracy Bonus: 1: 10, 2: 35, 5: 72
Attack Bonus 1: 10; 3; 35; 5: 72
Defense Bonus scales like the two above. However, honestly, noone cares about token level of defense and again, if you're using defensive spells in any serious setting, you're probably gearing defensively too. At least I am.

MAB 1: 20, 3: 28, 5, 40.
Store TP: 1: 10; 3: 20, 5: 30
Critical Attack Bonus: 1: 5%, 3: 11%
Dual Wield: 1: 10, 3: 25, 5: 35, 6: 37~.
edit: As you can see, the best traits do not triple with 1200 gift.

I stopped checking here
Double Attack and TH do not apply. In a zerg situation, BLU will be subbing warrior (like many other jobs).

Remember something though, BLU is a blank slate. They won't set 1 tier of DA, because A) it's less than what /war (10% vs 7%) gives so moot and B) what they're after is Triple attack, which they can also only get one tier of (5%). 5% TA is a 10 extra swings out of every 100.

So again, a lot of people don't actually understand what they're complaining about.

You set t1 and you get 2 entire tiers free. that's triple. Wether the VALUE of a tier is tripled isn't what I was saying.

Going from 550 jp to 1200 jp is a pretty damn large dps increase.

Not to mention, blu NEVER has to sacrifice it's subjob.