Cloudsplitter

/em crosses fingers

there are some other empy WS's that could use some love too. but this directly affects me so i want CS beefed up first ^^

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Originally Posted by Areola

there are some other empy WS's that could use some love too. but this directly affects me so i want CS beefed up first ^^

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Out of the other empy WS in need of adjustment CS is the weakest outside of a brew that I know of.

Why is SE giving Axe so many elemental WS lately? Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Primal Rend.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Why is SE giving Axe so many elemental WS lately? Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Primal Rend.

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Bora Axe isn't actually elemental, and Primal Rend was given to BST something like half a decade ago. Apart from that, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

Out of the other empy WS in need of adjustment CS is the weakest outside of a brew that I know of.

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I have to agree, maybe it's the lack of a dINT in the damage formula, but, this ws is quite the letdown compared to the way other ws take off huge chunks of HP. WAR (Sanguine) and BST (Primal) both already have comparable elemental dmg ws and Rampage beats them all anyway for making things dead.

This ws really needs help. If not more dmg than some kind of stun effect and additional effect strong paralyze, like Mind Blast. Something to justify its use over Rampage.

some ideas that would differentiate it:

An AoE effect
Make the aftermath affect pets as well.
Give a useful additional effect (least desirable)

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Originally Posted by Xilk

some ideas that would differentiate it:

An AoE effect
Make the aftermath affect pets as well.
Give a useful additional effect (least desirable)

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Make the damage physical and on-par with the other Empyrean weapons would help. A lot.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Make the damage physical and on-par with the other Empyrean weapons would help. A lot.

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I would not be in favor of changing it to a physical WS. Being able to burn down 3 Rani's, and drop Cuijatender to 30% with one brew is what the WS currently does right. It is just in need of some sort of tweak to make it compete with Rampage in normal melee situations. Some sort of decent added effect like paralyze, blind, amnesia etc. Combine that with a boost to the Ftp so that the damage is at least in the neighborhood of low end rampages with a good WS set. Then it would allow us the benefit of the aftermath. As it stands now there is no reason to even think about using it repeatedly in a normal melee situation.

I think it should be made to do far more damage then rampage while remaining an elemental ws. This is an empyrean ws on a DD weapon were talking about here. You don't see sam's with a masamune using gekko for dding you don't see war's still using raging rush with a yukon. Why the hell am i still stuck with rampage? I have an empyrean weapon for god sake.

also i think all pet job related empyrean weapons should get the aftermath for pets. ie H2H polearm and staff

While it would be fantastic for CS to do equal or more damage than rampage I doubt we will see that sort of adjustment for 2 reasons.

A) A huge boost to the Ftp required to make it do that much would also translate into it doing that much more while under brew conditions. Granted at the moment the best I've pulled off was a high of close to 30k, and an average of 18-21k in brew situations. That still puts us well behind wildfire which can almost one shot rani or shinryu.

B) I don't think it is realistic to expect such a large boost to the WS because the Beastmaster themselves are only 1/2 of the damage output in the equation. Our pets are putting out a significant amount also. In this day, and age skilled Bst are far more melee/DD oriented in terms of gear/playstyles. That allows us to close the gap with the #'s our pets are putting out.

So the tweak that needs to be made has to reflect Master, and pet combined. We only need enough of a boost so that we can at least measure up to an average DD's output when Bst/pet's #'s are combined. Hopefully we'll see a boost to the damage on CS to make it close to what we can do with rampage. That way we can utilize it enough to benefit from the aftermath, and make our available skillchain options more versatile. That boost, and some other added effect would be fantastic, and still preserve game balance.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

While it would be fantastic for CS to do equal or more damage than rampage I doubt we will see that sort of adjustment for 2 reasons.

A) A huge boost to the Ftp required to make it do that much would also translate into it doing that much more while under brew conditions. Granted at the moment the best I've pulled off was a high of close to 30k, and an average of 18-21k in brew situations. That still puts us well behind wildfire which can almost one shot rani or shinryu.

B) I don't think it is realistic to expect such a large boost to the WS because the Beastmaster themselves are only 1/2 of the damage output in the equation. Our pets are putting out a significant amount also. In this day, and age skilled Bst are far more melee/DD oriented in terms of gear/playstyles. That allows us to close the gap with the #'s our pets are putting out.

So the tweak that needs to be made has to reflect Master, and pet combined. We only need enough of a boost so that we can at least measure up to an average DD's output when Bst/pet's #'s are combined. Hopefully we'll see a boost to the damage on CS to make it close to what we can do with rampage. That way we can utilize it enough to benefit from the aftermath, and make our available skillchain options more versatile. That boost, and some other added effect would be fantastic, and still preserve game balance.

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I disagree.

Also i don't know why you are getting low cloudsplitter numbers while brewed. I manage to stay on par with wildfire during all my brews.

Everyother emp WS is very strong without brew. Most of them can be pushed to the 4-8k range in damage in abyssea. Theres no good reason for cloudsplitter to be so aweful without brew. Cloudsplitter tops out in the 3k and change range with 100% fulll support via gear and atmas and temp items, and you have to completely gimp your regular damage as well as the pets damage to reach those numbers. It makes the Weapon skill worthless for everything except brewing.

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Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

I disagree.

Also i don't know why you are getting low cloudsplitter numbers while brewed. I manage to stay on par with wildfire during all my brews.

Everyother emp WS is very strong without brew. Most of them can be pushed to the 4-8k range in damage in abyssea. Theres no good reason for cloudsplitter to be so aweful without brew. Cloudsplitter tops out in the 3k and change range with 100% fulll support via gear and atmas and temp items, and you have to completely gimp your regular damage as well as the pets damage to reach those numbers. It makes the Weapon skill worthless for everything except brewing.

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Yeah your preaching to the choir with your thoughts on non brew Cloudsplitters. At the moment the WS is garbage w/o a brew. My point was I would be amazed if it gets tweaked enough so we can do 4-8k without sacrificing the correct DD atmas. I would be ecstatic. I'm just not holding my breath.

In regards to your results with cloudsplitter under brew mode what sort of #'s are you putting out per WS, and what Atmas are you using, target monster etc.

I do around 35-40k on rani enuf to 2 shot it.

64k on alfard

those are the only big NMs ive brewed on bst since getting it.

Ive brewed some on war but that was just because no one else was available and i didnt feel like changing. I don't really count war brew numbers because they are inferior.

To get high dmg i use the +2 ferine body wich allows killer efects to add some % dmg. If i dont naturally have the killer trait (for instance vs alfard a dragon) i sub the appropriate sub to get it (drg in this case).

If i have the natural killer trait i use the proper pet and killer instinct. If i dont i use the proper circle ability (ancient circle in this case).

if i have dual wield i use a renauds axe +2 tp bonus +100 offhand.

Basically from their its all killer + gear and MAB bonus gear plus elemental belt/gorget.

Oooh! Sexy information. I'll have to play around with the subs a bit. I have most of the gear. Got the MAB, KI effects stuff, and belt/gorget. Wasn't aware of the boost to damage ratio of the KI effects was that significant. Still need to make the tp bonus axe. Have to occ attks 2-4 done so far.

Been using Ultimate, Baying Moon to cap MaB. Then Lion for the third. Was thinking of using the giant tp bonus one Sundering slash or w/e the name is. Not sure which would net better results.

Excellent info Sir! I appreciate it ^^

Lion blinding horn SMiting blow is ur best result combination.

I've said before that i dont what to spend 200k cruor to justify this ws. Wildfire doesn't need a brew to do damage and its still great outside of abyssea as well. Farsha is a war/bst weapon so the lackluster damage ends up hurting two jobs...kinda. War can make a yukon but Bst is stuck with it.

Sweet I'll give those, and the Killer Effects set up a go when my group goes to do our Alfard's for my +2 body

Another thing about it being a brew-only weapon skill, Abyssea isn't the focus of the game anymore. Any new items to upgrade Empyrean weapons will most likely come from Voidwatch where Cloudsplitter is going to be terrible damage because of a lack of brew, or (less likely) from Walk of Echoes where Cloudsplitter is going to be terrible damage because of a lack of brew. And eventually they are going to add new content where Cloudsplitter is going to be terrible damage because of a lack of brew.

It's lovely that it is an awesome weapon skill for brewing, but what about the other 99.9999999% of the time we are playing the game?

Considered using a TP bonus atma? I am crappy at the formulas etc etc. Also don't have an empy axe so havnt tested. However assuming fTP is the following:

100%TP = 3.75
200%TP = 5.0
300%TP = 6

is it just me that sees a decent boost from the 100-200% fTP?

Keep your normal DD atmas (RR / VV or Apoc or whatever) and try Smiting Blow.

Stack that with all of your MAB & mods etc macro'd in, and you should be hitting some more respectable numbers surely?

At least something decent enough to warrant the use of activating the aftermath.

The rest of the guys are right though. Can't really compare a magical WS to compare to a crit-hit WS in abyssea. There are actually a lot less Empyrean WS's that dont suck then you may think.

Polearm for example is quite average. Most DRG's with Empy's that I know stick to Drakesbane. Rudra's Storm isn't the most breathtaking weapon skill either, unless you force it to crit. The reason it looks bad is there are a few amazing weapons that are borderline overpowered. The rest are mediocre.

I have a pretty decent cloudsplitter set if I do say so myself. I'm only missing twilight body(using osode instead) and MAB rings(using STR+7 MND+5). Atmas aside, my BST/NIN cloudsplitter usually hovers around 900 in abyssea @100TP (Give or take a hundred).

-TP bonus atma: can boost damage up from 900 to 1200.
-Ultimate: boosts it a little better from 900 to 1350.
-Lion: boosts it comparably to TP bonus from 900 to 1170 + adds triple attack and a damage taken reduction.

I can get cloudsplitter up to around 1600 going RR + Ultimate + Lion
I 2000-3200 regularly with rampage in abyssea with RR+VV alone. Adding in Sang.Scythe, I've had rampage break 4000 on more than one occasion.

I have, though, considered making the TP bonus+100 axe now that I know it can be used in the off hand. With that axe, using RR/Ultimate/Lion, I assume I can get Cloudsplitter to a consistant 2100 damage at 100 TP. Thats still not gonna beat rampage, but its nice to be able to get it that much closer..

Still, others in my group went H2H, Sword, Katana, Bow, Etc. I envy their 4k CDCs, 5k Blade:Hi's, 7k Victory Smites, and 9k Jishnu's Radiances. Picked axe cause I love BST. It was a trap XD

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Originally Posted by Keinn

Still, others in my group went H2H, Sword, Katana, Bow, Etc. I envy their 4k CDCs, 5k Blade:Hi's, 7k Victory Smites, and 9k Jishnu's Radiances. Picked axe cause I love BST. It was a trap XD

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I fell for it too T_T. But in the bright side I'm almost done with my bow now.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

It's lovely that it is an awesome weapon skill for brewing, but what about the other 99.9999999% of the time we are playing the game?

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This. I shouldn't still be using Rampage 97% of the time. With other ws like CDC, Ukko, etc. I don't see many Emp holders still using a L55 weaponskill and yet here I am with my cool new weapon using the same macro I made in 2005.

Also, since it's a magic ws it's unaffected by the base dmg of the weapon so it'll need a substantial fix to scale properly all the way to 99 as the physical dmg Emps get more base dmg added to them. CSplitter will be even less impressive compared to ws like Sanguine as CSplitter has no dINT/dCHR bit in the formula so you can't even stack a stat to up the dmg.

Another strike against CSplitter as it stands is that while jobs like war and thf will get new traits and gear that boost crits, double and triple attack, etc. the best bst can look forward to minor stat increases as the sole boost to csplitter via the mod. (I assume this is primarily a bst ws as war gets Ukko's and seems unlikely to dual axe much anymore. I have war90 and rarely do.)

How about borrowing from the Mythics and having the aftermath work on my pet as well? Then it's a conditional boost to the ws, if solo, use Rampage, if you have a pet out, Csplitter.

Short version: I shouldn't wistfully be looking at every other Emp ws and regretting my choice, not on an Emp used by 2 different DD jobs. Fixing it and keeping it balanced will not be easy, but, a fix is badly needed. If it makes it easier to balance for SE, that fix should be tilted towards bst as it's the only Emp bst gets.

The only problem i have with the whole "let pets have aftermath" idea

Aftermath is kinda sucky. It doesn't proc enough to justify itself. And half the time the duration is wasted changing from mob to mob.

Don't get me wrong, Pets getting aftermath would be cool. But if thats the only change they made to cloudsplitter it would still suck.

It needs a serious damage boost to make it viable. It should easily be twice as strong as other normal Magic WS's

Side Note:
Personally i think aftermath should be based on a swing counter not a duration. I.E. 100% tp = 10 swings with a chance to deal double dmg ect ect. And the counter should overwrite (not stack) Ex. I have 3 swings left but i use WS at 100% and now im back at 10 swing counters (insted of still being at 3 or stacking to 13).

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Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

The only problem i have with the whole "let pets have aftermath" idea

Aftermath is kinda sucky. It doesn't proc enough to justify itself. And half the time the duration is wasted changing from mob to mob.

Don't get me wrong, Pets getting aftermath would be cool. But if thats the only change they made to cloudsplitter it would still suck.

It needs a serious damage boost to make it viable. It should easily be twice as strong as other normal Magic WS's
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I may have been unclear so let me make it easier to read should a Dev skim this before morning coffee/tea. ;)

CLOUSPLITTER'S DAMAGE IS MUCH TOO WEAK COMPARED TO OTHER EMPYREAL WS.

I think Farsha needs a serious boost to compete with the other Empyreals. An increase in the CS base damage and perhaps some kind of additional effect.

It needs a substantial boost to its damage to even compete with a old ws like Rampage let alone other Empyreal ws. That said, I fear SE is unlikely to raise the damage significantly as I'm sure it was originally made so low for some odd balance issue the same way SE 'balances' many pet job things. (Looking at you, Drum Magazine and the 'no Samba for pets' emergency update.) If I'm wrong and the low damage is an oversight and it's increased to be where I'd normally use it over Rampage that'd be fine.

However, as I suspect the 'elemental ws fix' will be used as the underwhelming silver bullet that 'fixes' my Farsha, copying the aftermath to the pet as an additional effect as well seems reasonable as the Mythic already does this. It also comes with a built in balance factor by not jacking up the already extremely powerful Warrior due to his lack of pets and by the Beastmaster needing a live pet to benefit.

(This post made before my own coffee, so please be kind. ^^)

SIDE REPLY: You raise a good point about the weakness of aftermath, but, I was thinking more of a fix for this weaponskill than an overhaul for all Emps. While your idea has merit it wouldn't change the relative power between the ws, which is what I'm more concerned with. Wildfire, Ukko, etc. hardly need more DD power. This seems more like it needs its own topic so I'll leave it here.

Not to sound too much like a Negative-Nancy or a Debbie-Downer, but I think the Farasha and Cloudsplitter are so weak compared to other Empyrean Weapons to try to crush the spirit of the few remaining dual-wielding Warriors. Beastmasters are just collateral damage in Square's war against /NIN.

ROFL Septimus

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Originally Posted by Keinn

ROFL Septimus

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Come on, tell me that I am wrong. :P

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Not to sound too much like a Negative-Nancy or a Debbie-Downer, but I think the Farasha and Cloudsplitter are so weak compared to other Empyrean Weapons to try to crush the spirit of the few remaining dual-wielding Warriors. Beastmasters are just collateral damage in Square's war against /NIN.

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Well, the one problem I see with this theory is how damn much SE seems to want war to single wield lately. I mean out of nowhere they decided to give war shield defense bonus, shield mastery, and the highest level of fencer out of any job that can use it. I'm not saying that a powerful 1 handed axe WS would have made this scenario any more likely, but it woulda been the next logical step in their chosen direction :p

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Originally Posted by Calamity

Well, the one problem I see with this theory is how damn much SE seems to want war to single wield lately. I mean out of nowhere they decided to give war shield defense bonus, shield mastery, and the highest level of fencer out of any job that can use it. I'm not saying that a powerful 1 handed axe WS would have made this scenario any more likely, but it woulda been the next logical step in their chosen direction :p

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I agree that this is what it looks like they're trying to do, but it shows a level of game mechanics confusion that's rivaled by only the most impressively ignorant players. What do they think we're going to do, single wield WAR/MNK with Counterstance and a shield?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I agree that this is what it looks like they're trying to do, but it shows a level of game mechanics confusion that's rivaled by only the most impressively ignorant players. What do they think we're going to do, single wield WAR/MNK with Counterstance and a shield?

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Dood! Don't forget boost!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST~~~!!!!!!!!!!

Srsly though, spam it with Provoke for maximum haet.

Woo hoo! Warriors are tanks again! And it isn't really a boost macro unless there is a DBZ reference in say or with an emote.

But seriously, I wouldn't take adding job traits as an indicator of what they want the job to do. They gave RDMs Shield Mastery with our fantastic F shield skill, they gave Bards Fencer, and they gave WHMs Shield Defense Bonus for our awesome D shield skill. For real, I am not making this up.

Played around on test server to see if a fix was on the way.. not yet at least. Cloudsplitter is still unchanged.

@100tp in WS set (STR+90, MND+42, MAB+12-24):
Outside Abyssea
lv.90 without TP bonus axe: 800+/-
lv.90 with TP bonus axe: 1000+/-
lv.95 without TP bonus axe: 900+/-
lv.95 with TP bonus axe: 1100+/-

Inside Abyssea (RR, Lion, Ultimate atmas)
lv.90 without TP bonus axe: 1600+/-
lv.90 with TP bonus axe: 2200+/-
lv.95 without TP bonus axe: 1800+/-
lv.95 with TP bonus axe: 2500+/-

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Originally Posted by Keinn

Played around on test server to see if a fix was on the way.. not yet at least. Cloudsplitter is still unchanged.

@100tp in WS set (STR+90, MND+42, MAB+12-24):
Outside Abyssea
lv.90 without TP bonus axe: 800+/-
lv.90 with TP bonus axe: 1000+/-
lv.95 without TP bonus axe: 900+/-
lv.95 with TP bonus axe: 1100+/-

Inside Abyssea (RR, Lion, Ultimate atmas)
lv.90 without TP bonus axe: 1600+/-
lv.90 with TP bonus axe: 2200+/-
lv.95 without TP bonus axe: 1800+/-
lv.95 with TP bonus axe: 2500+/-

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Thanks for testing that out for us. Even though it wasn't good news T_T.
I look forward to being disappointed by what SE calls balanced in the future <_<.

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Originally Posted by Areola

Thanks for testing that out for us. Even though it wasn't good news T_T.
I look forward to being disappointed by what SE calls balanced in the future <_<.

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Balance is a lie. It can be considered as the bigfoot or loch ness monster of FFXI. A mythological creature that people search for their entire lives, but will die without seeing.

I SEEN IT!

*shows a blurry photo*

*looks closely* That's clearly a picture of a moogle in a taco costume. I don't even...

Yah.... but he is playing a gameboy and balancing on a log... so that's game balance.

I just found a Dev reply on a japanese "Cloudsplitter's damage is terrible" thread.

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こんにちは。

実機のテスト環境でアレコレと設定を変更しつつ、実際にダメージ比較を見せてもらいながら、担当者と話をしてきました。

* 与ダメージ量について
アビセアエリアで「ランページ」と「クラウドスプリッタ」の与ダメージ量を比較する場合には、それぞれのWSに適した装備品とアートマをセットして比較してみてください。またアビセアエリア外で比較する場合、それぞれのWSに適した装備品で比較してみてください。

いずれの場合においてもランページを上回る与ダメージ量を上回る結果となりました。
（ちなみにアビセアエリアで、ランページ：2,000～3,000程度、クラウドスプリッタ：4,000程度です。）

特に格上の敵（テスト環境では自分よりも5レベル高い敵を対象としました。）と戦った場合の安定感はなかなかのものです。


* プライマルレンドとの比較について
クラウドスプリッタの魔法命中率は非常に高く、プライマルレンドの3倍以上の値が設定されています。
またステータスによるダメージボーナスも、プライマルレンドよりも上に設定されています。

ですので魔法命中を気にせず、魔法攻撃力アップやステータスアップに装備枠を使える分、プライマルレンドよりも優れているWSだと言えますし、実際の与ダメージ量も上回ります。


* 備考
巷で系統係数（？）と呼ばれているような値で計算してみたところ、与ダメージ量が若干少なくなりました。



ということで、この結果には僕もびっくりでした。結構どころか、かなり強いです。
魔法防御ダウンのペットや魔法攻撃力アップの装備品が欲しくなりましたっ！（ﾁﾗｯﾁﾗｯ

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My Japanese is only soso, so there may be some translation errors (and a contradiction), but here's what it says to the best of my understanding :
_______________________

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Hello!
We created a test environment using existing practical equipment in order to test damage, so that we could discuss it with who is in charge.

Amount of damage:
In abyssea area, test an equal number of Rampages and Cloudsplitters with appropriate equipment and atmas for comparison. After that, try it in outside abyssea.

In each case, Rampage did more damage. (By the way, in abyssea Ramage did 2000-3000, Cloudsplitter did 4000 damage)
Hence the contradiction.. Maybe I mistranslate the rampage did more damage part?

Especially in the case of stronger enemies (5 levels or more above) they felt very balanced.

Comparison to Primal Rend:
Cloudsplitter's magic damage bonus calculation is very high, at least 3 times higher than Primal Rend. Also, Primal Rend does not get the damage bonus status.

Because these are both 1 hit magic damage WS, we use similar magic attack enhancing equipment for both. However, we can say that Cloudsplitter in comparison to Primal Rend is superior at damage.

Note:
When used with more publicly accepted factors, the damage is decreased.

To my surprise, the results of the test are that this is a great strong WS. I would like to see more magic attack equipment or pets who can lower magic defense added to suppliement this. (Chiracchira~

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This was followed by another 8 pages of Japanese people agreeing / disagreeing with them. It sounds like they are playing the "What are you talking about, its great as it is!" card, but I'm still hoping with more feedback SE will eventually consider giving this WS a much needed boost.
(The extra MAB gear and M.Defense down pet moves would be a nice addition though.)