Wildskeeper Reive Feedback

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Originally Posted by Umichi

well then the player population would adjust... I still see no effort to down colonization rieves to defeat the boss.

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They did adjust. They went to majarmi.

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Originally Posted by Umichi

It's 75k bayld...... build up a new one... renewable resource.. people are puting to much value in an INFINITE source of money... you also have an INFINITE amount of game time to aquire said bayld (barring RL restrictions of course) who in their right mind forces themselves to stay in a rieve just because they dont want to revise their battle strategy?

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It's 50k bayld, if you put some time into doing quests, tasks and reives. (Uhoh... where did I hear that before...)

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Originally Posted by detlef

Thing is, you couldn't. If you moved all the people from Marjami to Yorcia you'd spend half the time standing around. There are 7 colonization reives in Marjami and 4 in Yorcia.

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With 2 CRs and 3 LRs so close to each other in Marjami Ravine they make a very good farming cycle as well. Yorcia on the other hand.. there's two CRs and 2 LRs accessible, but the north CR and LR both have true-sight panopts and the lair is impossible to solo with AM casting true-sigh mobs that go right up to the reive range limit... Which leaves 1 CR and 1 LR that can be comfortably soloed.. if you keep sneak and invis up...

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It's 75k bayld...... build up a new one... renewable resource.. people are puting to much value in an INFINITE source of money... you also have an INFINITE amount of game time to aquire said bayld (barring RL restrictions of course) who in their right mind forces themselves to stay in a rieve just because they dont want to revise their battle strategy?

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Uhh, people that don't want to have wasted a whole day or two farming that much bayld?

I'd imagine for many people, earning 75k bayld takes at least the better part of a day.


Oh, right, I'm talking to the guy who thinks Instant Protect III scrolls for 1k bayld are a good deal. Never mind

i'm finding a problem with that there seems to be more people in the fight zone afk in some safe spot that get rewarded and i'm stuck fighting the NM and walking away with only very little bayld for the fight and i always get the item that is farthest away from my jobs i use.

To clear things up i go summoner and always have an avatar on the boss and bloodpact every second i get, but then i see other summoners just running around with carby using healing ruby II and not helping with the actual fight and they get crap tons more bayld then me for just spamming curega on everyone. The system needs to put a cap on bonuses from buffs and award players more who are fighting the actual boss. I had spent some time during one fight healing some people and when the "review" rotation came around i got something like 400'ish exp/balyd but just fighting the boss i was lucky to see 100'ish.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Which leaves 1 CR and 1 LR that can be comfortably soloed.. if you keep sneak and invis up...

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Which lair reive is this? I checked all of the ones in yorica some time ago, but it didn't seem like there was a safe place to stand at any of them.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

i'm finding a problem with that there seems to be more people in the fight zone afk in some safe spot that get rewarded and i'm stuck fighting the NM and walking away with only very little bayld for the fight and i always get the item that is farthest away from my jobs i use.

To clear things up i go summoner and always have an avatar on the boss and bloodpact every second i get, but then i see other summoners just running around with carby using healing ruby II and not helping with the actual fight and they get crap tons more bayld then me for just spamming curega on everyone. The system needs to put a cap on bonuses from buffs and award players more who are fighting the actual boss. I had spent some time during one fight healing some people and when the "review" rotation came around i got something like 400'ish exp/balyd but just fighting the boss i was lucky to see 100'ish.

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If you have an avatar meleeing yumcax, you are hurting more than you are helping. The damage you'll do with a high colo rate is miniscule, but the damage/doom delt by TP moves from your extra TP feed is not.

Add a message ala WOE when hitting the ??? Point that shows the mobs current HP% please and thank you. The concept of a cell is already in the game how about adding that here as well please cause getting only a voay -1 staff for my hours and hours of work and bayld really makes me want to slap somebody.....

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If you have an avatar meleeing yumcax, you are hurting more than you are helping. The damage you'll do with a high colo rate is miniscule, but the damage/doom delt by TP moves from your extra TP feed is not.

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You don't worry about TP feed in a 18-man fight. What makes you think you should worry about it in a 180+ man fight?

Having an army of resummonable pets on the NM is always preferable to having a loose NM killing all your CORs.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2pobpu8.png

Best 70,000 Bayld ever spent, I love the Wildskeeper system.

That being my 6th Hurkan win.

And the best item I've obtained from all 6 so far.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Uhh, people that don't want to have wasted a whole day or two farming that much bayld?

I'd imagine for many people, earning 75k bayld takes at least the better part of a day.


Oh, right, I'm talking to the guy who thinks Instant Protect III scrolls for 1k bayld are a good deal. Never mind

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because the game is going away in a few months right? not everyone has the time to farm bayld all day long, and were not here to race to the finish line.... should item drops be looked at maybe... but that still does not make my point invalid... you have acess to making bayld whenever you want and you have a games lifetime to obtain what you want... why do you need to consistently do a wildskeepers every day considering the fact that this content was made for normal to casual players who either share no interest in delve content or are working on the high end of the next step to working on the lower levels of delve. in which case doing 2-3 wildskeepers a week is a pretty decent pace. maybe thats why your getting crud drops all the time and the reason why SE made drop rates rediculous is because of people want to spamga the crud out of it until the content becomes obsolete and then no one can do it because the ones who got what they wanted moved on.

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Originally Posted by Umichi

because the game is going away in a few months right? not everyone has the time to farm bayld all day long, and were not here to race to the finish line.... should item drops be looked at maybe... but that still does not make my point invalid... you have acess to making bayld whenever you want and you have a games lifetime to obtain what you want... why do you need to consistently do a wildskeepers every day considering the fact that this content was made for normal to casual players who either share no interest in delve content or are working on the high end of the next step to working on the lower levels of delve. in which case doing 2-3 wildskeepers a week is a pretty decent pace. maybe thats why your getting crud drops all the time and the reason why SE made drop rates rediculous is because of people want to spamga the crud out of it until the content becomes obsolete and then no one can do it because the ones who got what they wanted moved on.

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Why don't you just give me all your items? I mean you have forever to get more right? Time is of absolutely no value correct? So just give me all your stuff. You have your entire life to get more and you're obviously not in any sort of rush to get better items. I think that since you are completely content doing the same thing forever with no benefit to yourself, you should just really make that example and ditch everything so you can re-obtain it all.

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because the game is going away in a few months right?

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Wildskeeper Reives are not going to stay popular forever. There was a brief surge of them going on on our server after the quest Order Up was discovered, but even now I am noticing they have started to taper off. And I'm sure it's just a matter of time before even the new gear from Hurkan/Yumcax will be considered crap and not worth spending the bayld for by most players.

You'd have a point if these fights were the kind of thing a small group of people could go in and casually win, but they're not.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

You don't worry about TP feed in a 18-man fight. What makes you think you should worry about it in a 180+ man fight?

Having an army of resummonable pets on the NM is always preferable to having a loose NM killing all your CORs.

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Because of much worse moves getting thru and less organization. Also generally speaking that 18 man fight has more people meleeing the mob then you have in a reive. So his point is very valid. All you are doing with keeping your avatar out is making it harder on the plds and occasionally turning hate to the mages. Last Hurkaan I did took a good hour extra longer because of a few smns just leaving the pets on Hurkaan the the resulting hate issues and tp feed.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

You don't worry about TP feed in a 18-man fight. What makes you think you should worry about it in a 180+ man fight?

Having an army of resummonable pets on the NM is always preferable to having a loose NM killing all your CORs.

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Quickdraw doesn't grant mobs TP, and there is no reason for anyone to be meleeing yumcax at high colo rate. Cor army + non-engaged tanks = no TP feed except from the NMs own melee attacks. And yes, there is a gigantic difference between a bunch of avatars feeding it TP, and no avatars meleeing. It's the difference between it using TP moves once in a while and being extremely manageable, and spamming them non-stop, destroying your tanks/cors. Additionally, TP moves are what put up his regen aura, and grant him access to more deadly TP moves.

Avatar damage is subject to colonization rate -DT, quickdraw is not. Parties of cors can also reset quickdraw CD constantly with random deal/wild card rotations, a single cor in one of these parties is going to do dozens of times the damage of a single smn, literally. Even with sub 20% colo rate (IE: takes 0 damage from everything from quickdraw and that one geo ability), 2 competent cor parties can kill yumcax in a little over an hour, provided you have the tanks, a geo for mdb and more importantly meva debuffs, and aren't being MPKed by idiots.

If you really want to use merits BPs or whatever on yumcax once a minute for like ~5% of the damage a cor is doing in that time period, go for it, but please release it afterwards. Don't feed it TP with your single digit avatar auto-attacks.

Even at high colo rates it isn't worth the feed or the potential hate pull. This isn't 2003. Every smn should know to bp and release like they have been since endgame content first started being done. Really as long as it isn't spammy the only thing that comes close to killing me on pld is the doom move. And that's me just a really crappy whm with me that is mostly there for buffs/remove status effects. As such it's good to not have it use said move by feeding tp.

Hurkaan is similar in that only a couple of special moves can kill me and even then it will only do so if it get's them off right after a dispel move before I can put shell back on... ie doing back to back moves because it was hand fed tp by lazy smners

I'm guessing you guys don't get the naakual fights where an assembly line of avatars ARE what's tanking the naakual, but that's usually how it goes on my server.

Overall, I think the idea of Wildskeeper rieves is fantastic, it's like Beseiged but in reverse. After participating in all five, some multiple times, here is my consolidated feedback, both good and bad.

What needs adjusting:
Enmity and AOE attacks: In all WKRs, but especially Yumcax, it's too easy for one random person to suddenly appear, aggro a bunch of enemies (on purpose or not) and cause devistating affects to people outside their alliance.
Yumcax regen: because of the issue I just mentioned, it makes it extremely difficult to recover and progress, even with the most well prepared players.
Reward system: with such a costly entrance item, the risk versus reward is very skewed with repeat bouts. 50-75k bayld to receive a pebble or log is not only frustrating, but is a total turn off to the game. By contrast, voidwatch, which had very low drop rates at least granted a very large amount of experience points, cruor, and skillup opportunities. I don't feel that the XP and bayld gained from WKR matches the effort and intensity level. I would like to see a system like Nyzul Isle 2, where perhaps 3 repeat battles of a single Naakul allowed the player to select the item they want.

What is great so far:
The general concept: I love the idea of a huge number of people teaming up for an enemy lair style invasion. When things go moderately well, it's some of the most fun content I've experienced so far!!
The actual rewards: When they do drop, they're wonderful, both in stats and in general look.
Lack of ridiculous, disabling boss TP moves: I'm very glad that we don't see these NMs with amnesia/doom/terror auras etc. For the most part, even though they hit hard and have some nasty attacks they typically do not spam them unreasonably.
The Order Up quest: I love being able to at least select "that one item" that you really want just from defeating each tier of Naakuls, it was a very nice surprise.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm guessing you guys don't get the naakual fights where an assembly line of avatars ARE what's tanking the naakual, but that's usually how it goes on my server.

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For hurkan sometimes yes (when people won't take down the aura), yumcax no. If avatars have the highest threat on yumcax, than your cors are going to take hate immediately and get destroyed when they try to DD. If cors can't stay alive and QD, that you probably aren't going to take it down at all, at least with low colo rates.

I stood for three days in a wildskeeper reive against Hurkan waiting for people to join me. I was engaged in battle for atleast 9 hours. My reward: a bullet. That's unfortunate :(.

OK!!! I just spent 9hours in a Yorcia Weald WKR for the 5th time I have gotten nothing which I am Assuming means I have gotten Gorget each time. This event Is getting very OLD VERY FAST! Farming 70k Bayld in Reives that last less than 3minutes most times with the mass of ppl around, and Repops of 1hour pr Reive you find yourself standing around for 45minutes or more pr hour! ILL GET TO MY POINT.

WKR AND Bayld farming need adjsutments. Decreasing the reives hp by half will not help this. Your going to take away from everyone working on bayld thus taking away from ppl having the Bayld for WKR. Killing the reive faster only promotes the Lowman portion of farming and when you get mass ppl you will get nearly nothing from completeing unless you have imprimaturs(which btw DO NOT cycle fast enough, need a quest or rank to increase replenish rate). That bein said here are some things that need to Happen to WKR.

#1 Key Item Not lost Until WKR NM is Dead! Some of us CANNOT stay up 12hours or more waiting for people to stop aggro'ing uselessly. Reives Tend to be ok once its in order and players are not out "Soloing" adds that end up killing the entire group.

#2 ADD A WARP TO DIRECTLY THESE WKR ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE! (Maybe once you have talked to the moogle outside Yorcia Weald?) I don't know but something. I know that it makes players work on colonization rate but for players that join late they have hard times getting through the reives and sometimes NEVER get through them. Maybe can warp at 80% of mob HP or less? Im not sure.

#3 Take the low end Synth Mats out of the loot pool. Its not something we go for 75k Bayld(IT TAKES TOO LONG TO MAKE 75K BAYLD), we go for the gear and the gear only. If anything Make the 2nd Slot JSE Capes. The Main loot drop either needs to be fixed again, or you need to start giving us KIs for each win per zone kind of like how NNI works. You win 5 You pick an Item, Or make the Quest "Order up" repeatable and we lose the 5 KI each time, either is fine.

#4 Add Temp Items or tone down the aoe/debuff and adds. DD are useless nearly in this zone as they barely get heals and even when they do the fact that players mostly do not party up and solo makes it very hard to deal with them in a timely manner. The WKR I was just in, ran so long because solo players kept pulling those Adds to the main group and then they aggro us and welp wipe yet again, for hours. THIS IS NOT FUN!

#5 I don't really have a #5 tho I probably will think of one later. This event is painful.

I notice a lot agree, I really hope you make some big changes SE.

How about making it so that items actually drop, period? Just finished my first Hurkan win tonight. Got the bonus XP/bayld. Got the KI. Got a pebble. No gear what so friggin' ever.

Be glad you've only gone once and have a pebble to show for it, try 7.

Should've had every item by now, yet I have none.

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Originally Posted by Bedavere

#1 Key Item Not lost Until WKR NM is Dead! Some of us CANNOT stay up 12hours or more waiting for people to stop aggro'ing uselessly. Reives Tend to be ok once its in order and players are not out "Soloing" adds that end up killing the entire group.

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I think the hardest part would be figuring out how to keep people from abusing this to get 100's of thousands of bayld easy.

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Originally Posted by Bedavere

#2 ADD A WARP TO DIRECTLY THESE WKR ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE! (Maybe once you have talked to the moogle outside Yorcia Weald?) I don't know but something. I know that it makes players work on colonization rate but for players that join late they have hard times getting through the reives and sometimes NEVER get through them. Maybe can warp at 80% of mob HP or less? Im not sure.

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Yorcia Bivouac #3 is actually fairly close to the WKR and has nothing blocking the way. I think all of the zones have a bivouac that is fairly close to the WKR so that is something the players can fix on their own

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Originally Posted by Bedavere

#4 Add Temp Items or tone down the aoe/debuff and adds. DD are useless nearly in this zone as they barely get heals and even when they do the fact that players mostly do not party up and solo makes it very hard to deal with them in a timely manner. The WKR I was just in, ran so long because solo players kept pulling those Adds to the main group and then they aggro us and welp wipe yet again, for hours. THIS IS NOT FUN!

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This is from some recent notes from the devs for a future update.

Add effects to Reive trophies: This has been delayed from the August version update in order to prioritize the implementation of colonization and lair reive adjustments.

So maybe we'll get something to help with that. That is mainly a player issue though and I'm not sure there is much SE can do about it because when they die next to everyone the monsters will still end up coming after people lol ; ;

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Originally Posted by Helldemon

I think the hardest part would be figuring out how to keep people from abusing this to get 100's of thousands of bayld easy.

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There needs to be some sort of safeguard against losing your KI for nothing though, this seems like the best, and really, probably the only way it would work unless someday GMs can actually play a player...

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Yorcia Bivouac #3 is actually fairly close to the WKR and has nothing blocking the way. I think all of the zones have a bivouac that is fairly close to the WKR so that is something the players can fix on their own

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If people walk out there over the course of a hour, then yes, but its stupid that we have to do that all the same.

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This is from some recent notes from the devs for a future update.

Add effects to Reive trophies: This has been delayed from the August version update in order to prioritize the implementation of colonization and lair reive adjustments.

So maybe we'll get something to help with that. That is mainly a player issue though and I'm not sure there is much SE can do about it because when they die next to everyone the monsters will still end up coming after people lol ; ;

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Remove Alliance hate, make mobs depop when no hate is on them after killing a player & repop 10 seconds later. That should be a short enough time to avoid easy sacking but avoid idiots ruining things for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Why don't you just give me all your items? I mean you have forever to get more right? Time is of absolutely no value correct? So just give me all your stuff. You have your entire life to get more and you're obviously not in any sort of rush to get better items. I think that since you are completely content doing the same thing forever with no benefit to yourself, you should just really make that example and ditch everything so you can re-obtain it all.

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that is comepletly besides the point im trying to make... giving you Items I already have does not equate to an item I currently do not have but want. people are putting to much value on a system based off of perpetually obtaining it.

Not only that but these people are completing said content faster than most normal players. I know I'm starting to round out my third nakaul this week, and how many months has the expansion been out now?

http://i41.tinypic.com/2dtc83q.png

EIGHTH Hurkan.

520,000 Bayld, Can I have a drop now, please?

How about now, NINTH Hurkan.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30c7iht.png

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Originally Posted by Umichi

that is comepletly besides the point im trying to make... giving you Items I already have does not equate to an item I currently do not have but want. people are putting to much value on a system based off of perpetually obtaining it.

Not only that but these people are completing said content faster than most normal players. I know I'm starting to round out my third nakaul this week, and how many months has the expansion been out now?

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It's not besides the point. You said people should be happy just playing and that they have all the time in the world to farm more bayld. If so then Why are you even doing nakkuals? Surely there is some other content that you skipped along the way. Why the rush to do Nakkuals? You have all the time in the world. They aren't going anywhere right? Something you want from them maybe? Maybe you have some goals / gear that you want to obtain and you're skipping some quests, jobs, gear along the way to get it done faster? Why the big rush to get to nakkuals?


See how I did that? Now you're the guy who want's everything in a hurry. Sounds like BS doesn't it?

Two things need to happen in the WKRs. First REMOVE THE F*CKING SUPER HATE. Seriously so tired of being in a corner unweakening and having the MB seek me out because it aggroed someone else in the alliance 10m ago. The insane hate + linkage mechanics make constant wipes guaranteed until you have a f*ck ton of people present. This is a campaign type battle full of random people, the probability of any form of communication or coordination is essentially 0.

And then TONE DOWN THE MB'S OFFENSIVE STATS. Currently if your not a PLD (or RUN) you die getting anywhere near those things. I'm talking 4K+ aoe damage. Even at 100% colonization they still murder anyone who gets anywhere close to them. This in turn makes the entire fight about COR's and SMN's whittling away it's HP while groups of PLD's (and RUNs) keep it in a corner somewhere.

Once someone gets the initial clear, let them enter subsequent battles at a heavily discounted rate.

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Originally Posted by Karah

http://i41.tinypic.com/2dtc83q.png

EIGHTH Hurkan.

520,000 Bayld, Can I have a drop now, please?

How about now, NINTH Hurkan.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30c7iht.png

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Hurkan #1 grip
Hurkan #2 pebble
Hurkan #3 iron ore
Yumcax #1 neck
Yumcax #2 ebony log
Yumcax #3 cape

I give up

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Originally Posted by Karah

http://i41.tinypic.com/2dtc83q.png

EIGHTH Hurkan.

520,000 Bayld, Can I have a drop now, please?

How about now, NINTH Hurkan.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30c7iht.png

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How many hours you spent on these ?

gzz... this is what I think ... SE made us grind all the time for nothing, whilst they keep stating - "Your hardwork will eventually pay off" and get rid of random drop...
Is this how it should work for what Mr M said?

Each kill takes... an hour-3 hours (the first)...

Building the bayld to do it isn't toooo bad. Running the morimar cycle gets about 40k an hour, so it's "only" 15 hours work... *headdesk*.

But seriously, getting NOTHING time after time after time after time... Voidwatch 2.0? I get that you get an item 100% of the time, but the problem is the damn thing keeps rerolling the SAME ITEM EVERY TIME! ugh!

Tired of it. Tired of 8k AoE damage. Tired of building Bayld to enter. Tired of wasting my time. August 3rd is when my sub is up, and I'm seeing no light at the end of this shit-tunnel yet.

Giving away hundreds of free pops for Dring was a massive gimmick. What could you possibly add in the 2nd campaign to keep the fed up people around another month?

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Originally Posted by Traxus

Which lair reive is this? I checked all of the ones in yorica some time ago, but it didn't seem like there was a safe place to stand at any of them.

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K-9 doesn't have panopts and the funguars and flytraps are sound agro only. Not something you'd AFK, but you can usually reapply sneak without a problem by moving around and still issue commands to pets.

SE really needs to move those flowers so players can join the reive without being ganked by true-sight mobs...

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Originally Posted by Helldemon

Yorcia Bivouac #3 is actually fairly close to the WKR and has nothing blocking the way. I think all of the zones have a bivouac that is fairly close to the WKR so that is something the players can fix on their own

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Lol sad thing is no Biv's in Yorcia on Bahamut still D;

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Lol sad thing is no Biv's in Yorcia on Bahamut still D;

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I think that's the 3rd or 4th I have heard of not having any at all. Phoenix has none either.

Well I mean the point of establishing them is to save time... but since they decay it requires continual effort. With nothing good about the zone except Yumcax and some missions chances are you will want to warp to a specific spot in there less often then you would have to run there to keep up the biv making it not save you time... now if they reward for all that running was something awesome like 5k balyd/xp per tag then yeah people probably would lol.

Right now I'm most fed up with people who will litterally do there best to kill your points. Oh your holding some mobs while there are adds beating up the plds holding the main and some beating up the mages killing them? Clearly pull off the full hp ochain pld with 3 mobs on him. See someone fighting something by themselves? Use everything you got to get hate on it then run it back away from that person and fight and everytime they get in range run again.... see someone trying to tank/cure themselves? Cure bomb them even though they are near full. But when they get to red completely stop curing

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Originally Posted by Umichi

It's 75k bayld...... build up a new one... renewable resource.. people are puting to much value in an INFINITE source of money... you also have an INFINITE amount of game time to aquire said bayld (barring RL restrictions of course) who in their right mind forces themselves to stay in a rieve just because they dont want to revise their battle strategy?

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Lol sad thing is no Biv's in Yorcia on Bahamut still D;

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That's probably because you need Advisor rank (VI) in Couriers' Coalition. The bivouac near WKR also requires two colonization reives to be defeated, so unless a coordinated effort is made to get people to deliver supplies, it's going to be a LOOONG time before those appear, and a short time to disappear again.

Here's a kick in the pants. 6 hours fighting yumcax and my character that only has cape and head get nothing. People who show up at the end get weapons.... seroiusly SE seriously

And hate to say this but think it was better when you didn't get something if you entered after 50%.... part of the reason this took so long is because alot of people were waiting for it to get lower to jump in and get item fast. And I mean I was litterally capped on xp/balyd before it got to 80%. Maybe uncap the balyd and/or xp rewards or make it so the more you do the better odds you have cause this is rediculous

Looks like all of this has been said before, but here it is again. Due to the fact that Wildskeeper Reives take up so much time (earning the bayld, waiting for a run to happen on the naakual you want, killing the boss) I don't think the JSE backs should be in the treasure pool. It really sucks when you farm bayld throughout the week, wait 'til the weekend so you have enough time to kill a boss, then spend six hours killing a boss just to receive crap you could get from a less than 3 minute Colonization Reive. I now have 11 JSE backs and I can't use any of them... they're just inventory -1 until I get the items I want. The thought that all of these JSE backs are competing for the drop with the unique boss items, which are apparently extremely rare, is incredibly discouraging.

I haven't seen a yorcia WKR shout ever. I'm sure they have happened on my server a few times, but I have never seen one. Colonization rate has never been above 27% to my knowledge. Doubt it ever will.

And the fact that they just added all that gear that is gonna soak up a bunch of bayld doesn't help either.
Just sayin...

I find some are not shouted or shout by jps using slang that google can't translate properly so most others don't find out. That said even though colo rate is almost 50% now there is just as much shouts maybe less than when it was at 20% or less... cause until you start getting 80 maybe 60 its going to still be cor dominated dmg. Also think people are getting sick of farming balyd over and over again then going into a fight that they know might last litterally 16 hours with people who are going to definitely do stupid shit and sometimes even malicous stuff like deliberately wiping everyone and come out of it with a pebble. And even if eventually you do get the item we practically know that even just the lower tier nm version will be better in next delve