Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

I'm just sick and tired of having to chase after gears to swap in/out just to make avatars worth a flip. Seems like that's all we've done since we left the jungles and Ugly Pee. Scaling for our pets has not scaled well in comparison to the masters, and it's just too grossly out of whack now (not a SMN specific issue, but it's pretty bad for SMN).

Before, it was basically just seen as a nuissance and posed a bit of challenge to balance things out, but now post 75 caps (and outside of using atmas to enhance pets), it's just borked.

Sorry, I just can't shake the idea that they need to fix the pets themselves first, THEN focus on gear bonuses to be used for the exceptions--not as a means to balance the job's shortcomings.

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Can't say i agree, but not 100% disagree, Giving them a Staves DMG isn't going to suddenly make their fSTR, Acc, attack and dDEX not suck. Without both a DMG Boost and the Alternator-Type buffs, neither are going to be very worthwhile (Except maybe Magicals).

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As I pointed out, weapon DMG: and items that give more stats aren't mutually exclusive. Why couldn't we have both this systemic change of DMG: on staves having a secondary function for mage jobs, AND have grips that boost pet stats?

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I'd rather them give us our Alternator Grip and just rework Avatars Damage/Delay altogether, rather than dooming them to Staff Damage, which hasn't gone well for any of the jobs.

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This doesn't "doom" anything. It's a buff. a flat out plain and simple buff. All staves have a DMG rating. Many of them also have many useful stats. This would be an upgrade no matter which weapon you use, with the avatar's current base damage being what is used with no weapon equipped. Why are you not seeing that this is nothing but a benefit for everybody- it opens up a large number of weapon options- it makes the R/M/E weapons relevant to all playstyles and not just one. This just makes sense- the avatar's power will scale much better, unlike the way things are now where a SMN can easily outdamage its pet with a high DMG weapon- this way, the avatar is always stronger than you no matter what weapon you use.

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Sorry, I just can't shake the idea that they need to fix the pets themselves first, THEN focus on gear bonuses to be used for the exceptions--not as a means to balance the job's shortcomings.

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I said that in my post- I totally agree with this. The first priority should be fixing systemic issues, not compensating for the flaws with gear.

That being said, tying avatar power to weapon damage is more of a systemic change. You're never not going to have a weapon equipped short of stripga. higher levels mean higher dmg staves, so this does not break early game balance either.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

First: You should be HAPPY to give up your perp magian staves- you never needed them in the first place. I haven't used a perp staff in years. There is more than enough perp- and refresh on gear to counter perp cost even with zero perp cost on a weapon. Even if you don't have enough, you can use avatar's favor to negate the rest at minimal loss of damage.

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Unless I missed a few pieces of gear coming out (always possible), I'd end up losing 2-3 points worth of auto-refresh without using those staves. You are correct in saying I don't need them to 0 out the cost between perpetuation and auto-refresh gear, however, I don't see why I shouldn't be trying to maximize my returns without sacrificing damage.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

+ stats for avatars on gear is about the last thing I want. That should only come after everything that's actually broken about SMN is fixed. Gear can't fix every problem SMN has right now. While stat bonuses are nice, they don't fix things that are inherently broken.
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None of you should be "fine" about grips with SMN stats. Stats are the least of SMN's troubles. Kinda funny how I started this thread on SE's side, then when they come up with a terrible idea, now suddenly everyone's on SE's side and I'm not...

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I definitely agree that we need hefty changes to all sorts of things - preferably sweeping changes to very core mechanics. I do not - in any way - accept these grips as any sort of fix to our actual problems. However, as a means by which we can be expected to achieve growth? Eh. I'll wait to see where they go with it before I pass judgement.

Mostly, it's just nice to actually have something even semi-positive to speculate on for once.

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Unless I missed a few pieces of gear coming out (always possible), I'd end up losing 2-3 points worth of auto-refresh without using those staves. You are correct in saying I don't need them to 0 out the cost between perpetuation and auto-refresh gear, however, I don't see why I shouldn't be trying to maximize my returns without sacrificing damage.

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In this case, you WOULD be maximizing your returns AND your damage. You don't need a perp staff- ever. There is so much MP recovery in the game now that even if you don't completely cancel it, it's a nonissue. There's no reason to ever be using anything other than a staff that helps either you or the avatar (or both) do more damage.

As far as gear, I don't know when you last played, but perp staves have been pretty much unnecessary (meaning "don't need the benefit," more than "has no benefit) since caller's set +2 came out.

I haven't actually used SMN in Adoulin yet, so I'm still intrigued as to what sort of damage the BPs can push out there.

The benefit of SMN, and the reason we never got any upgrades before was that BP: Rage received no Level Correction Factor Penalties, so although BPs didn't do the best damage, or all that quickly, it was consistant, and VS lvl 120 content, just as strong as vs lvl 75 content.

Now that in Adoulin they got rid of the LCF and just increased mob stats to reduce damage taken of higher mobs, does this mean SMN completely sucks for damage now?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In this case, you WOULD be maximizing your returns AND your damage.

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Ah, I should have clarified better. My apologies. My comment about maximizing damage was in response to you mentioning Avatar's Favor to keep perpetuation down. A "minimal loss in damage" is still a loss in damage, ergo I do not want to use Avatar's Favor if its only purpose is to minimize my perpetuation if my perpetuation can be minimized in ways that have no negative impact on my damage.

The comment was not directed towards your proposed idea of tying avatar stats into the stats on staves.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You don't need a perp staff- ever. There is so much MP recovery in the game now that even if you don't completely cancel it, it's a nonissue.

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I believe I stated fairly unequivocally that you were indeed correct when you said you do not need a -perp staff. I flat out agreed, and added no caveats to that agreement. With that in mind, I'm not sure why you felt you needed to repeat yourself.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There's no reason to ever be using anything other than a staff that helps either you or the avatar (or both) do more damage.

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A fair statement! When I melee, I use a staff (and gear) appropriate to such a task. When I use a blood pact I switch to yet another staff. Why then, when I am not meleeing or using a Blood Pact should I not be using a staff that benefits me by ensuring I have just a little more MP? If there's another staff out there I should be using during such a time, please tell me and I will make every effort to acquire it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

As far as gear, I don't know when you last played, but perp staves have been pretty much unnecessary (meaning "don't need the benefit," more than "has no benefit) since caller's set +2 came out.

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Taking a look at what's currently out there: The Caller's +2 Doublet and Pigaches account for -7 perp. The Evoker's Ring adds another -1. The Summoner's Horn +2 would give another -3... Oh! And the Adhara Gages grant -2. All in all, that's -13 perpetuation. That still leaves me with a perp cost of -2. Factor in Summoner's native auto refresh and I would balance out to exactly 0 cost. (Demonstrating that - exactly as I agreed - you are indeed correct). I can even sneak in an augmented Stearc Subligar and Moonshade Earring for a net gain of +2MP per tick.

On the other hand, with my current setup (counting in the -perp staves) I can pull in a passive +5MP per tick. So, again, you're right that I don't "need" a -perp staff, but it's still nice to have given that there's nothing else for me to use when I'm not meleeing.

Should such a change you ask for be implemented, I will of course switch to whatever staff would improve my performance in the best manner. Heck, I'm not even against the change you propose. I merely opined that I would miss my -perp staves. All that extra MP is nice to have.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I haven't actually used SMN in Adoulin yet, so I'm still intrigued as to what sort of damage the BPs can push out there.
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Now that in Adoulin they got rid of the LCF and just increased mob stats to reduce damage taken of higher mobs, does this mean SMN completely sucks for damage now?

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Purely anecdotal accounting:
I tend to get something between 1200 and 1500 on the mobs in Ceizak and Yahse (depending on the mob and which avatar I have out).

I've also done a few Delve NMs as Summoner. I tend to miss a lot on the Physicals - the few that have landed have varied from 500 to 1400. More Misses than not, however.

I haven't had much luck landing Magical Pacts, either. Most get resisted into oblivion. Nether Blast is a pretty consistent 500-600, though.

At the very least, when blasted out early in a fight, Odin will drop a fair 9 -10k or so!

Damage is pretty awful unless you are playing to the mob elemental weakness with no delve gear (don't bother trying to land phy blood pacts right now unless you have an avatar acc set). Nether blast spamming isn't an awful idea. That said, with the Delve staff and helm, I hit decently. Right now for Delve NM's the content for casters is a lot about hitting your magic bursts imo for 2k+ damage depending on pet tp and setup. Playing to mob elemental weakness is important though. I find myself using Shiva and Ramuh for damage the most right now.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This doesn't "doom" anything. It's a buff. a flat out plain and simple buff.

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First off, Yes, Its doom. whether or not its a buff I'm not debatting, But it'd be like asking "hey, Gimme some Dagger damage with a Polearm delay, cool with me, Better than a Pebble's Dmg!", If they're going to buff Avatar's Damage, I rather it not be tied to the weapon I'm using, If anything I'd rather them just flat out buff Avatars damage rating up to about on par with our best damage staff.

For a Summoner who can't get their hands on a D:150 or higher staff, what do they get? Plenitas? I mean its better than nothing but its still garbage compared to even level 85 Empyreans. Staff is by and far ahead the worst melee weapon in the entire game, so while it'd be better than our avatar's current DPS, it will not even remotely make people take a second look at SMN, we'd go from "Sword Dmg and axe delay" to "Staff dmg and axe delay", which will still be pretty top tier garbage.

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All staves have a DMG rating. Many of them also have many useful stats. This would be an upgrade no matter which weapon you use

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Fay Crozier
Chatoyant
Soulscourge
Any Magian Perp Staff.
Avitap Pole(I think?)

All of these commonly used weapons have worse damage ratings than our avatars currently have, meaning if your SMN isn't lucky enough to have the Delve weapon, or Skirmish weapon, It'd be a clear and concise nerf.

Regardless, done with the quoting, as i said in my last post, An Alternator is good, upgrading their damage is good, but one without the other won't mean much for the job, and if they are going down the "Buff their dmg" street, I'd rather it not be tied to "Whats the best staff i can get my hands on?" and it be more like BST and PUP, and not their plans for DRG. the plans for DRG work cause Polearms generally have crazy dmg and high buffs, and Wyvern's aren't designed around Blood:Pact or "Special attack" Systems like PUPs, BST, and SMN...

Talking in circles more but srsly, If they're going to upgrade Avatar DPS by any amount, I'd rather them make it something meaningful, rather than give us the DMG of the single worse melee weaponry in the entire game. Basically, I know you see my point.

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First off, Yes, Its doom. whether or not its a buff I'm not debatting, But it'd be like asking "hey, Gimme some Dagger damage with a Polearm delay, cool with me, Better than a Pebble's Dmg!", If they're going to buff Avatar's Damage, I rather it not be tied to the weapon I'm using, If anything I'd rather them just flat out buff Avatars damage rating up to about on par with our best damage staff.

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Well, we'll just have to disagree here. Why would you rather it not? How does it hurt you? If using a DMG:150 staff gives you more damage than an elemental staff, isn't that a good thing? shouldn't we be able to use level 99 gear at level 99 instead of level 51 gear? This doesn't doom anyone or anything.

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All of these commonly used weapons have worse damage ratings than our avatars currently have, meaning if your SMN isn't lucky enough to have the Delve weapon, or Skirmish weapon, It'd be a clear and concise nerf.

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I think you're missing something here. I didn't say that it would be straight up "Avatar's damage = wepon damage rating." I said the base damage with NO WEAPON EQUIPPED would be exactly the same as it is currently. Thus, equipping a weapon, any weapon, would result in an increase in damage. It wouldn't be 1:1, because that would be ridiculous- but it would increase the avatar's physical damage.

So let's say you are naked, and your avatar's base DMG: is 50. (just saying for example purposes.) You equip a skirmish staff with DMG: 103, and the avatar's DMG: goes up to (example) 120. Essentially, it would work like hand to hand in this regard (all avatars do HTH damage with melee as it is anyway).

All of those commonly used weapons you listed would still be better than not having a weapon equipped. No weapon would ever decrease your avatar's damage below what it is currently, unless SE invents some piece of garbage item with a negative DMG rating.

By the way, since you seem to know but aren't stating it, what are the summons' base DMG: ratings? It would go a long way giving a more precise ratio.

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Talking in circles more but srsly, If they're going to upgrade Avatar DPS by any amount, I'd rather them make it something meaningful, rather than give us the DMG of the single worse melee weaponry in the entire game. Basically, I know you see my point.

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I'm afraid I don't see your point. you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying "Avatars should attack with your staff using its damage and delay." I'm saying "Avatars should get a bonus to damage based on the DMG: rating of the staff you're using." A great improvement that would increase the relevance of many staves in the game to summoners who choose not to ever swing them. The bonus would be based on the DMG: only, not the delay, which would be unmodified.

Using the parameters I described, your avatars would always hit for more damage both with their melee attacks and blood pacts than you would with your staff, no matter how strong it is. Currently, this is not the case. I think the other people in this thread understand what I'm getting at here. Think of it as if a weapon read like this (just without it being seperately listed as a stat):

Hvergelmir
(Staff) All Races
DMG:113 Delay: 390 MP+150
"Myrkr" Aftermath: Occ. deals dbl. damage
Pet: DMG: +80
Lv.99 BLM/SMN/SCH

You would of course still want to switch to a MAB or elemental type staff for magical blood pacts.

So what you're saying is, Your staff damage would be added to your avatars base damage, not replace it?

WELL WHY DIDNT YA SAY SO BRO.

While i still think a refit to their damage formula would be better for us, and probably 8,000,000% Easier to program, If it was just "Add dmg to pole" Its not bad, Gives a reason for Claustrum to exist when/if its buffed. Still:

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shouldn't we be able to use level 99 gear at level 99 instead of level 51 gear? This doesn't doom anyone or anything.

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Well, Duh, But that doesn't mean there aren't level 51 weapons or such that are still worth using for SMN, Unfortunately until they release a DMG:150 Staff with Perpetuation Cost-, Things like Fay Crozier and Chatoyant are going to remain in use, even with the best of gear most avatars will cost your or be just free without Favor, and its better to get MP back... Its not about "Moving on is good!" is that there's this cold harsh reality no matter how much we believe in the heart of the cards, those weapons are still useful :|

Plus, While SMN Is a gear heavy job, Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job. Making it so where Staff damage is added to your pets, the damage of your Avatar would be heavily dependant on you owning a Delve weapon, which means, the job, if ever invited to DD, would now become just another "Got RMED? no? Gtfo our party" job, which i believe would be a step backwards.

Even you can't deny that yes, this would happen, you know FFXI too well.

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WELL WHY DIDNT YA SAY SO BRO.

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It's what i've been trying to say the whole time. :p

We have tons of weapons and other items that boost avatar magic. For physical, we have a handful of items that say Avatar: increases attack which only work on blood pacts and which are so trivial they're not worth using. Nothing increases avatar melee damage and nothing measurably increases avatar physical blood pacts. People have always been asking for reasons to keep their summons out. Having them actually do meaningful DPS would be a pretty good reason if you ask me.

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Unfortunately until they release a DMG:150 Staff with Perpetuation Cost-,

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Doesn't need to have perpetuation cost - on it. I already argued this with someone else. There is already an overabundance of this stat on all other gear slots. You do not need a weapon to render perpetuation cost irrelevant. Even without remarkable gear you can negate it with avatar's favor, which gives you a buff and has a negligible effect on physical BPs and a larger but still minor effect on magic BPs, which can easily be countered by the gear available today (e.g. skirmish weapon with +50 pet MAB).

Not saying I would complain if they had perp cost on them, but it's completely unnecessary and if it meant not having some other beneficial stat on them, I would rather have the other beneficial stat instead.

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Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job.

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This is only because most people have historically regarded the RME as worthless outside of a niche group of people. To make these weapons more relevant is really not a bad thing. (The SMN empyrean is very easy to get, this wouldn't be putting any kind of major burden on people. The Skirmish weapon isn't bad to get either and it's very similar in DMG: )

Besides, Staff has a lot more weapons which come close to the RME in physical power than other weapon types. There are alternatives that would still be effective.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I already argued this with someone else.

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I think I'm a little hurt that I didn't rate well enough to at least have my name given. I may start to think you don't like me at this rate...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is already an overabundance of this stat on all other gear slots. You do not need a weapon to render perpetuation cost irrelevant. Even without remarkable gear you can negate it with avatar's favor, which gives you a buff and has a negligible effect on physical BPs and a larger but still minor effect on magic BPs, which can easily be countered by the gear available today (e.g. skirmish weapon with +50 pet MAB).

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I came out to -13 perp cost without a staff. This is not what I'd call an "overabundance" given that the practical cap for -perp on Celestials is -14. Is there some gear I didn't mention that you know of? Something that would actually put us over the cap, perhaps allowing us to slide in bits of refresh gear instead of -perp (i.e. Caller's Horn +2 VS Summoner's Horn +2), maybe?

(Also, if you would oblige me, I'd appreciate a clarification as to what you mean by "remarkable". Do you mean as in: something that can only be acquired through a difficult and/or time consuming event - which the Adhara Gages might qualify as for by some - or do you mean as in: something like the Aegis that radically alters the way a job can approach an event?)

Ultimately, I merely take exception to the way you say that perp costs are "irrelevant". Without the -perp currently available on staves we can minimize its impact, yes, but you have yet to demonstrate a means by which I can attain maximal -perp through gear (sans weapon) without lowering either my damage or reducing my passive MP returns. No matter how you slice it, losing damage or losing passive MP returns still sounds like suboptimal performance to me.

Like I said, if there's some other staff out there I ought to be using, I'd love to hear about it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Not saying I would complain if they had perp cost on them, but it's completely unnecessary and if it meant not having some other beneficial stat on them, I would rather have the other beneficial stat instead.

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If the other beneficial stats were exactly that, I'd take them over a -perp staff, too. There are plenty of other things that could be put onto a weapon that would benefit us, but don't try to pretend that we still wouldn't be losing something out of the deal. Something worth giving up for the right stats? You betcha.

However, telling us we don't "need" maximized -perp sounds like something akin to telling us we don't "need" -15 BP delay, or telling a Whitemage they don't "need" 50% cure potency, or telling a melee that they don't "need" 25% in gear haste. While technically true, it is nonetheless silly to think that anyone would ever want to settle for anything other than maximized performance if they could help it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Plus, While SMN Is a gear heavy job, Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job. Making it so where Staff damage is added to your pets, the damage of your Avatar would be heavily dependant on you owning a Delve weapon, which means, the job, if ever invited to DD, would now become just another "Got RMED? no? Gtfo our party" job, which i believe would be a step backwards.

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I hate to say it, but be it staff or grip I'm worried that is exactly what's going to happen no matter what. In either case, its going to become the "must have" item or you're gimped. The only silver lining I can see is that every job will be in the same boat...

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I think I'm a little hurt that I didn't rate well enough to at least have my name given. I may start to think you don't like me at this rate...

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No, nothing against you- it was just kind of a hasty response.

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I came out to -13 perp cost without a staff.

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You may be forgetting auto refresh II and 2 refresh on summoner's horn. Favor can also grant you -3 perp cost. perp cost doesn't even need to be completely negated to be irrelevant. The question you have to ask is a simple one- Can you perform the job you came to perform without having to stop because you ran out of MP? It's honestly pretty rare for anyone to have to say this these days. If you can answer yes to that question, you don't *need* more perp -. Without favor or weather or day the celestial avatars have me at -3/tick, those other things can neutralize it or give me a slight gain. even without it, it's not an issue because I can recover MP easily enough with siphon, weapon skills, capabilities of certain subjobs, and/or support effects from party members, depending on the situation. Unless none of these things are available to me, MP is generally not a problem.

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(Also, if you would oblige me, I'd appreciate a clarification as to what you mean by "remarkable".

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I pretty much mean anything you can't realistically obtain while playing summoner in the current community climate. e.g. stuff from the current expansion excluding items obtainable with bayld, Empyrean +2, anything from abyssea and voidwatch (which summoner can usually participate in) is not "remarkable."

So basically, TL;DR would be: Irrelevant, in this case, means "this mechanic is not inhibiting my ability to use my job's functions." IMSHO, this happens well before it reaches 0 or goes to net gain.

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You may be forgetting auto refresh II and 2 refresh on summoner's horn.

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He might be forgetting Auto-Ref II, But I assume he's using Summoner's Horn +2 (Perp-3) in his equations :x

And using Favor kinda negates the idea of doing damage with your avatars as If i remember right, Its something -Attack, -20MAB, and -10 Acc.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

He might be forgetting Auto-Ref II, But I assume he's using Summoner's Horn +2 (Perp-3) in his equations :x

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Two for two, sir. It seems I made my own hasty post. I remembered to account for it the first time, then forgot to mention this time that the 2 points of auto-refresh will, indeed, exactly 0 out the cost. And I definitely did say I was using the Summoner's Horn +2, vs the Caller's +2 when I first arrived at that number.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Without favor or weather or day the celestial avatars have me at -3/tick, those other things can neutralize it or give me a slight gain.

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And in the same situation I pull in +5/tick. Using Favor does nothing but penalize me, as it cuts my avatars' offensive powers, and does nothing to give me more MP back. Yes, I can get the job done with a -3 cost (did for years before Abyssea came along after all), but I can do so much more with the +5.

For me, having a maximized -perp/refresh set is like the difference between a melee having, oh... an 85 Empy, and a 99 one. The difference is small, and a skilled player with an 85 is better than a lousy player with a 99, but it's still better (from the perspective of the owner) to have the 99.

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Originally Posted by Imakun

I find it amusing that they have no idea of what to do with Summoner. Or any other mage for that matter.
They are so afraid of overpowering them that they'd rather let them agonize and buff SAM or whatever other melee class (that is not THF or DRG, as far as I can tell) hoping that everyone will eventually jump on the bandwagon and forget about them altogether.
But then they throw at us events that need magical damage and support and it's all good and dandy until you find out all the rewards heavily favor melee classes while you walk away with +MAB for your BRD.

They seriously need to put their brains together and think about the situation of magic at this stage of the game's life. Even the simple fact that we have never had magic-specific food, let alone pet-specific food, except for HMP is honestly insulting.

Yes, I am butthurt about it.

Also, if they think I'm just going to quit XI to play ARR when it comes out they are underestimating my intelligence.

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I agree! so afraid of overpowering mage and pet class jobs! at this moment the game is all about supporting the two handed melee SAM, DRK and WAR! where is the balance...

I really didn't pay attention to how the hate system was updated until recently. Most of the time I play this game I solo older content or ill dual box with sam as my main. I never had an isse as sam keeping hate. But I just picked up redmage again and tried to level dagger skill on crawlers in the past and I was shocked at how hard it was for me to keep hate. I would be killing this mob up to about 10% left of its life and my dual box character I would just have sit there doing nothing the whole fight. Then I casted stoneskin with my dual box whm and took all the hate from my redmage and couldn't get it back. I couldn't believe it. This emnity system is all screwed up to no end. I was going to start leveling summoner for both characters but I don't know now until avatar emnity is fixed.

So what gear are you using where you don't need a -perp staff to keep an avatar out without it costing you mp? And at present there aren't any better staves to use when not using a BP other than a -perp staff.

My terrible gear: Chatoyant, Caller head +2. caller body +1, caller hands +1. evoker's ring, stearc subligar with refresh augment, caller's feet +2. Net loss of 0 mp per tick on non-matching day/weather.

Matching day: Net gain of 3 mp/tick, then I can still use the Refresh spell to gain even more.
It's pretty easy to do.

Now try that without the chatoyant, which is effectively a -perp staff for every avatar. The question was, what would you use in place of a -perp staff where you're not losing MP, and that includes chatoyant.

The whole point to my question was because it was said that -perp staves are not needed. So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

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Actually, I already did that:

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

The Caller's +2 Doublet and Pigaches account for -7 perp. The Evoker's Ring adds another -1. The Summoner's Horn +2 would give another -3... Oh! And the Adhara Gages grant -2. All in all, that's -13 perpetuation. That still leaves me with a perp cost of -2. Factor in Summoner's native auto refresh and I would balance out to exactly 0 cost.

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No staff involved. No Avatar's Favor. No day/weather shenanigans.

Toss in an augmented Stearc Subligar and you'll be at +1/tick cost. There's also a possible Moonshade Earring augment to get you to +2/tick, but not everyone might want to put their Moonshade to mage-iness.

First-

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And in the same situation I pull in +5/tick.

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So what? I don't run out of MP without "pulling in" +5/tick. I don't need that in order to not run out of MP.

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Using Favor does nothing but penalize me, as it cuts my avatars' offensive powers, and does nothing to give me more MP back.

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Using favor has virtually no penalty whatsoever, reduces perp cost, and gives you a potentially useful (but slight, because you'll be using BPs) buff. While you don't need it's perp- if you've already negated it elsewhere, why use a crappy staff with perp- on it when you can use a better staff without perp- on it and negate the perp cost elsewhere?

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For me, having a maximized -perp/refresh set is like the difference between a melee having, oh... an 85 Empy, and a 99 one.

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For me, having a real staff instead of a perp staff is like the difference between a melee DD having an 85 empy and a 99 one- because the real staff improves my performance, while the perp- staff doesn't. Your comparison is extremely flawed and inaccruate because you don't need a maximize perp/refresh set for optimal performance. your BPs are on a hard timer. It is not difficult to maintain your MP while using them as often as they come up. To me this is like continuing to add gear haste past the gear haste cap. If you don't actually need something, adding more of it doesn't help you.

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The whole point to my question was because it was said that -perp staves are not needed. So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

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You don't even need to completely negate perpetuation cost for it to be irrelevant. Unless you're unable to perform your essential job functions as a result of the perpetuation cost, you don't need any more. If you have enough other forums of MP recovery, be they buffs, siphon, myrkr, spirit taker, any of several refresh effects, convert, or sublimation, and you're able to BP when you want without having to rest for MP, then you don't need more perp -.

with this gear set http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/301790, which represents the stuff I most commonly have equipped (I do of course have some macro sets), there is -8 perp, +2 refresh, and +2 auto refresh; +1 more in a matching weather condition, and halving any remainder (rounded down). if no day or weather is available, the remaining perp can be cut by using Favor- which has a very minor negative impact on the avatar. Unless I'm in some hardcore endgame event like delve NMs, I generally am able to use Myrkr whenever I need it to get a total or near total MP refill. Then there's Siphon. SMN has access to lots of MP recovery.

Of course, all this ignores the fact that you can in fact completely negate avatar perp without a staff, and also the fact that if you have the highest damage staves, you're in a good position to use MP recovery WS and your avatar is also doing more damage (with the suggestion I offered in this thread).

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

So what gear are you using where you don't need a -perp staff to keep an avatar out without it costing you mp? And at present there aren't any better staves to use when not using a BP other than a -perp staff.

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His argument is that if the avatar dmg was based on the dmg of the SMN's main weapon, then using a high damage weapon would be more beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

His argument is that if the avatar dmg was based on the dmg of the SMN's main weapon, then using a high damage weapon would be more beneficial.

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that's the gist of it basically. If/when you're able to melee, a high dmg staff is already more beneficial, but if it also added dmg to the avatar like I described in an earlier post (which is similar to what they say they are doing for polearms on DRG) you won't have to melee to gain a benefit from the many weapon-type staves (as opposed to stat-sticks that have never offered as much to SMN as other jobs).

In many other games, including FFXIV 1.x, the damage rating of your weapon was a key stat even on caster classes. Weapons for mages are balanced around this, where the weapon's damage value influences the effectiveness of their primary means of attack (e.g. spells).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

While you don't need it's perp- if you've already negated it elsewhere, why use a crappy staff with perp- on it when you can use a better staff without perp- on it and negate the perp cost elsewhere?

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What better staff? I've said at least twice now that I'd love to know what staff you think I should be using, and you have yet to provide me with an example.

By your listed gear set and comments, am I safe in assuming you would wish to put forth the Hvergelmir as such an example? I would not deny that you would have an excellent point, but then I also already stated that I myself use a different staff when it's safe to melee. If that statement then wasn't enough, allow me to make this as clear as possible now:

I have not now or ever stated, nor do I believe that a -perp staff is the best staff for all situations and that it should be used at all times. I also agree that in times when it is safe to melee you will net far more returns from a higher damage staff via Myrkr/Spirit Taker than you would get from the -perp staves with the added benefit contributing to your overall damage.

But what about when it's not safe to get up next to the mob and melee? If I can't swing for TP to WS with, the Hvergelmir (or any melee centric staff) offers me no benefit as I am neither getting MP back from it, nor generating extra damage from it. What other staff should I be using in such a situation that makes a -perp staff "crappy"?

If you're trying to tell me that a -perp staff allowing me to get more MP still does nothing beneficial for me when I can't get up and melee, I'll have to disagree. People have radically different ideas of what their "essential job functions" are (which are often further modified by who they're with, and what event they're doing at the time). Given my particulars, I need that +5/tick to do my thing more often than not. For me, since I'm not giving up anything when I can't melee, and am in turn getting something I need, a -perp staff is an invaluable piece in my overall -perp/refresh set.

Now, as I believe this talk of -perp staves has gone on more than long enough, that neither you or I are likely to shift our stances, and that it is beginning to detract from the purpose of the thread(as well as discussion about the idea you proposed), I will allow the following to be the last I intend to say here on the subject: As the saying going, "stuff's situational." Just because you don't have a use for something doesn't mean that someone else in entirely different circumstances doesn't, and I object to your unilateral dismissal of -perp staves as useless.

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What better staff? I've said at least twice now that I'd love to know what staff you think I should be using, and you have yet to provide me with an example.

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Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useable stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

I'm not really sure why you can't see that perp- does zero to improve your performance. Perp - only compensates for an intentionally imposed limitation; once it's been adjusted to the point where it doesn't impact your activities, it is indeed "useless." Perp- doesn't help you do more damage, it doesn't make your buffs better, it does nothing but save you MP- if you're not having MP troubles, then you have all the perp- you need.

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I have not now or ever stated, nor do I believe that a -perp staff is the best staff for all situations and that it should be used at all times.

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I never claimed you've said that. All I'm telling you is that you don't need as much perp- as you think you do and you can easily obtain the necessary perp with gear you're very likely to already be using before equipping a staff.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useable stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

I'm not really sure why you can't see that perp- does zero to improve your performance. Perp - only compensates for an intentionally imposed limitation; once it's been adjusted to the point where it doesn't impact your activities, it is indeed "useless." Perp- doesn't help you do more damage, it doesn't make your buffs better, it does nothing but save you MP- if you're not having MP troubles, then you have all the perp- you need.

I never claimed you've said that. All I'm telling you is that you don't need as much perp- as you think you do and you can easily obtain the necessary perp with gear you're very likely to already be using before equipping a staff.

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I feel as though the SMN community feels they have to reduce perp cost as much as possible, and then stack other stats ontop. Really it should work the other way around. You should be stacking other stats, and if you find you are running out of MP slowly implement more -perp cost until you find a point where you can manage MP like you say.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useful stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

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I have all those, and they're macro pieces, pet mab does nothing unless using a magical BP, smn skill doesn't do anything for your avatar unless its performing a bp.

I completely understand what you are saying, if you're in a position where you can melee, then a higher dmg staff with melee oriented stats will benefit you more than using a -perp staff, but then, if you're meleeing, you're going to be using melee oriented gear also, which will negate your -perp even further.

I prefer to strike a balance and keep just enough of that gear on such that I can keep an avatar, usually ifrit b/c of its Ward buffs and double attack favor, up indefinitely. You see, the problem here, which I'm trying to address with my original suggestion (getting back to that...), is that having found everything else that buffs your pets, the only way to further improve your performance is to melee- with a strong staff, the master is more powerful than their pet, and I see this as a problem on a caster class that's supposed to command powerful beings. Given the limited gear available, and the fact that absolotely NONE of it increases your avatar's DPS except for the odd piece with a tiny bit of pet haste, having the avatar recieve a damage buff based on the staff you're using will help the avatar at least keep pace if not be always better than you are.

Part of this is because, lets face it- Summoner rarely even gets to participate in content where melee really isn't an option (e.g. Delve NMs since the time limit was added). The least SE can do is kill two birds with one stone and make the RME weapons and the other non-magey staves out there have more meaning to a wider portion of the playerbase. This suggestion allows them to do that without even changing the actual base stats of the weapons, also producing the first items that actually increase the avatar's damage over time and creating an incentive to keep them up (remember, Avatar: increases attack items have been show to only be effective during a blood pact)

Obviously I won't convince you it's not necessary to get the maximum amount of -perp, that's fine. But I would like to see options avialable that most players would find attractive- especially ones that are effective at all times, so they don't have to switch them constantly- something you can't do if you're meleeing, as you will lose your TP (which is why I am quite happy with the Skirmish staff, which offers both high DMG and up to +50 pet MAB; no myrkr but you win some, you lose some)

I can definitely respect that. I always find it annoying that I must choose between a melee staff or a staff to boost Avatar performance. Getting the best of both would be nifty - even more so if they do, indeed, allow the WoE weapons to unlock the empy weapon skills. Myrkr with any staff would be mighty fine by me.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(remember, Avatar: increases attack items have been show to only be effective during a blood pact)

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This has always been a minor pet peeve of mine. Some stuff... sure, OK. Even melees have stuff that only boosts damage during weapon skills. But all of our Avatar: Attack gear? I call shenanigans at that.

Yes... Literally, the only thing that affects avatar's melee attacks are atmas in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Using favor has virtually no penalty whatsoever, reduces perp cost, and gives you a potentially useful (but slight, because you'll be using BPs) buff.

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hate to be nitpicky...but not sure I'd say it's virtually no penalty.

Initially, Avatar's Favor was suspected to be around 10% from people just eyeballing it. Through lots of testing, it has been mathed out to be -20 MAB for magic attacks and -10 ACC on physicals. Last I looked at tests for ATT values, it hadn't been hammered down, but it had been shown to be a penalty to physical damage output (and yes, that included melee). It may be a flat -10 ATT to be in line with the ACC penalty, which is why it may be hard to hammer down I guess, as the calculations for avatar damage have been shown to be pretty funky and they hadn't figured out how to math them out properly--but parsings showed it to be roughly a 5% reduction to just meleeing.

That may not sound like a lot when just looking at those values, but you have to put them into caclulations over time. It can mean as high as around 10-13% reduction on the magic side (depending on gear and such, it could be lower if you have lots of boost), but it is still a big chunk to the MAB bonus, just the same. At the very least it has been shown to have a -5% reduction on all the physical damage--this would apply to both melee and BP's. It could be potentially more if the accuracy penalty causes extra whiffs on both melee and BP's (epecially if it causes more misses on the first hits on multi-hit BP's....where most their damage comes from). Apply that to a session where you are doing damage in the thousands (or tens of thousands) over time and it can add up to have a pretty noticable impact.

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hate to be nitpicky...but not sure I'd say it's virtually no penalty.

Initially, Avatar's Favor was suspected to be around 10% from people just eyeballing it.

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On physical attacks, I can't even see the difference- granted physical BPs can vary a lot so its not easy to eyeball.

As far as I'm aware, the magic penalty is -20 MAB. It's visible, since magic damage is more consistent, but it's still small and there is a large amount of pet MAB available now that counters that and then some.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

On physical attacks, I can't even see the difference- granted physical BPs can vary a lot so its not easy to eyeball.

As far as I'm aware, the magic penalty is -20 MAB. It's visible, since magic damage is more consistent, but it's still small and there is a large amount of pet MAB available now that counters that and then some.

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You can notice it on the multi-hit's when they start whiffing more though. Especially if they start missing more of that first hit, output drops considerably--sometimes to the tune of 1k or more. And the difference is there in the melee's, may not be seeing it because the min/max range is so wide. The increased crit rate for avatars at 99 probly helps to mask it more now too, but if you run the parsers on them and put the results side-by-side you should still see it. It was a pretty clear distinction when they ran them a couple years ago. It's all sourced out at the wiki's, and the numbers are there for all to see. They found a definate drop in the physical output, even though they couldn't pinpoint exactly what was cut and by how much, but it is there and it does add up over time.

And -20 MAB is significant. It's even significant for BLM. Even if you are able to get your avatar to the 200 MAB point, you are still getting a 10% reduction at that point in the formula, which is one of the last elements in the calculations:

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(floor[512+1.72*(TP+1)] + floor[(Avatar's INT - Monster's INT) * 1.5]) * MAB(of avatar)/MDB(of monster) * Day/Weather

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Another way to look at it is that it can more than negate your merit bonus for your magic BP's (it's twice the cap for magic attack). Or, it counter's a base Nirvana's MAB bonus, half of a completed one, or potentially nearly 30% of the bonus on a maxed out Skirmish staff (assuming it follows the BLM augments, a bigger chunk if it doesn't get to 67 MAB). So, yeah....-20 MAB is a significant impact to your merit BP's.

So... why don't you stop arguing and just use grips (like SE probably wants it to do anyway) for exactly the same thing alhanelem suggests for the staves? Then you can keep your perp staff or melee staff if you want and still increase the dmg of the Avatar. You are way more flexible this way, too. It's not like we have any really good Grip anyway (smn skill+3? MP+? not really needed). I like the direction that SE wants to use grips since it's a slot we don't really needed until now. Implement lowlvl to highlvl grips so SMNs on lower levels can already benefit from it and it's done.

If we use Grips instead of weapons you can still use your highdmg Staff if you want to melee alongside your avatar but you aren't tied to a high dmg staff without perp cost if you want your Avatar perform good. That way you have WAY more options of gearing because noone will let you gear in perp staffs except Nirvana if it's tied to staves with high dmg, it would kill a whole line of staves and that isn't favorable. Just think about this for a moment.

I don't know why SE can't just give our avatars the same benefits in gear as other jobs receive in theirs. Ultimately, any "fix" they make with grips/staves and so on is going to be temporary, and slowly diverge from the direction other jobs take as the game progresses. Is it really that difficult to put half-way decent "Pet: X" effects on new gear as a matter of course? A set like the Orvail stuff exchanged for bayld has no utility for summoners (save for Shattersoul - but, honestly, aren't we entitled to a bit more than that?) and I simply cannot see why, after all the fuss we make -every single time gear is released- that someone at SE couldn't just have a bit of thought as they plop that "/ SMN /" on the bottom of gear description.

Caster gear is already badly designed enough for the jobs that can make decent use of it - having INT+14 on the Orvail Corona to match the MND/CHR+14 is NOT going to break it, simply because spellcaster stats work differently to melee stats - just as having Ice Perpetuation-7 and Thunder Perpeutation-7 on the same staff is no more powerful than two separate staves. Having "Avatar: Magic Attack Bonus +10" on a hypothetical pair of MAB gloves doesn't make them any more powerful for BLM, nor does the MAB on them have any relevance for SMN.

Honestly, I think half of the developers must still have converstations along the lines of "INT affects cure potency, right guys?"...

I think it's also worth reiterating that having more "Pet: X" gear does depend on the prerequisites of a preceeding general "all pets" fix, a SMN job overhaul, and a general revisitation of existing "Pet: X" effects (eg. Avatar: Attack being terrible). "Pet: X" gear should be keeping us in line with other jobs as they get new gear, not used as a desperate scrabble up to something approximating the same general tier.

The bigger point that seems to keep getting forgotten is that the fix should not be coming from gear.

The fixes should be going directly to the pets first, regardless of what gear is equipped.

Whether that is a direct boost to the pets base line stats, or tweaking/addition of a trait to either the master or the pet's own native traits gained from their job class can be open to debate. What NEEDS to happen is for something to be done that is native to either the master or the pet that gets an adjustment first, and then gear adjustments can follow as a finer tuning.

Tying the adjustment to weapons, grips, armors, or accessories is the wrong approach to what plaques SMN. DRG is hurting in much the same way too, and I know it also applies to other pet jobs as well. So, it isn't just a SMN that needs to have it's pets tweaked directly, it's just a much bigger issue for SMN (and DRG). Just because BST and PUP have had some better scaling for their pets, that doesn't mean they don't deserve some adjusting also.

Pets simply need to get some sort of improvement natively, before any gear bonuses are applied. If they want to add the gear adjustments to give us more flexibility/potential, that's fine. But gear should not be released under the guise of "fixing the job", as that by definition is not adjusting the job, but adjusting gear.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

The bigger point that seems to keep getting forgotten is that the fix should not be coming from gear.

The fixes should be going directly to the pets first, regardless of what gear is equipped.

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Quoting for emphasis