Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

When was enmity ever not broken? There has always been something that someone could complain about giving too much or too little enmity.

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It's never been perfect, I never said it was. Feel free to put words in my mouth, however.

Last night was so awesome pally super tanking I died, raised and casted refresh2 on myself and the mob kills me again fing epic system we have at the moment...

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Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn

Last night was so awesome pally super tanking I died, raised and casted refresh2 on myself and the mob kills me again fing epic system we have at the moment...

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Super Tanking.... as in Reives?

Reive mobs have unique enmity mechanics, they are specifically designed to be able to hunt down and kill off targets in the area regardless of whether or not they have hate. if you don't believe that, you obviously haven't done a Reive with a BST who doesn't know to sneak/invis before sending a pet in.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Super Tanking.... as in Reives?

Reive mobs have unique enmity mechanics, they are specifically designed to be able to hunt down and kill off targets in the area regardless of whether or not they have hate. if you don't believe that, you obviously haven't done a Reive with a BST who doesn't know to sneak/invis before sending a pet in.

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Nope just regular mobs was holding a bunch of links.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Below is the list of abilities and spells that will have their enmity values reduced:

• White Magic
  Raise / Raise II / Raise III / Arise / Poisona / Paralyna / Blindna / Silena / Stona / Viruna / Cursna / Blink / Stoneskin / Aquaveil / Slow (I & II) / Haste / Paralyze (I & II) / Silence / Barfire / Barblizzard / Baraero/ Barstone / Barthunder / Barwater / Barsleep / Barpoison / Barparalyze / Barsilence / Barblind / Barbreak / Barvirus / Sacrifice / Esuna / Auspice / Repose / Erase / Addle / Temper / Embrava / Enfire (I & II) / Enblizzard (I & II) / Enthunder (I & II) / Enwater (I & II) / Enaero (I & II) / Enstone (I & II) / Enlight / Phalanx (I & II) / Regen (I~V) / Refresh (I & II) / Sandstorm / Rainstorm / Windstorm / Firestorm / Hailstorm / Thunderstorm / Aurorastorm / Voidstorm / Animus Augeo / Animus Minuo / Adloquium

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How is cure not apart of that?
Reason

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Job Abilities
  Benediction

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Here's hoping that Benediction no longer == suicide.

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Originally Posted by Godofgods

How is cure not apart of that?
Reason

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Originally Posted by Camate

As a follow-up to my previous post, we will be making adjustments to job abilities and spells that have a fixed amount of enmity in the upcoming version update.

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Cures generate enmity based on the amount cured, thus they do not have a fixed amount of enmity they generate, and are not listed in these changes...

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Originally Posted by Caketime

It's never been perfect, I never said it was. Feel free to put words in my mouth, however.

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I never said you said it was perfect, apologies if that sounded like the point I was trying to make. I used your quote as little more than a jumping-off point for me to join the conversation so I could slowly push towards the idea that NIN's enmity problems should be fixed with something besides ninjutsu so the option of being a low-enmity ninja DD still exists. Since your original post had nothing to do with ninjas, I thought it would be obvious that I'm not so much touching your post specifically, but the overall attitude of everyone posting here, but I can see how it might be misconstrued. Sorry again.

Kincard raises some good points on last page. Ninjutsu has almost never been used to hold hate because it's really never been very good at holding hate.

I dont see why they reducing enmity for ninja spells, good ninjas use spells to get hate, and vokes of course

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Originally Posted by Kombys

I dont see why they reducing enmity for ninja spells, good ninjas use spells to get hate, and vokes of course

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Firstly because the decreases in hate generation from damage and healing caused an indirect boost to these spells ability to build hate. Secondly because due to the nature of the stances that NIN uses, it can be played as a high-enmity tank/debuffer, or a low-enmity DD/debuffer. If they left ninjutsu spells at their current values, playing low-enmity ninja would be harder than it used to be before the enmity changes.

My hope is that they grant ninja some hate tools outside of the standard buffs and debuffs they currently use. Or maybe something unique like a spell that frenzies the enemy and forces them to attack the ninja regardless of current hate values. Obviously, it would need a long recast and short duration though.

One thing I'd like to see is a trait for PLD that makes our cures generate more enmity. My paladin is hardly a healer, but if I'm saving someone's ass, I should be rewarded. Another option would be to give PLD's cures a trait that lowered their target's enmity.

Enmity changes with adoulin seemed to be heading in the right direction, but a lot of things were broken as well. Bst'ing dynamis built my aegis, but today's the first time I've seen bst in dyna since update, and paralyze was pulling off mobs that falcorr had put some hurt on. Pre-update* once a good Ruinator was snarled onto the pet, the pet was tanking.

Bst was OP in dyna pre-update. Changing the job so that it requires skill is fine. Breaking the job sucks.

And those poor poor summoners... As an Ochain PLD, I'm really not scared of anything, so I take on a VT malboro, a passing smn friend offers help. Well it's a stalemate. I'll never die, but he'll never die. I tell the summoner I'm going to just let it kill me so we can move on. He says ok. I die, Malboro never faces Smn's garuda but goes straight to the summoner and murders him. I get back up and guard the summoner while he stands back up and we move on.

Had Garuda out-hated me, would the malboro have just taken off for the smn? Sad.

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Originally Posted by Kombys

I dont see why they reducing enmity for ninja spells, good ninjas use spells to get hate, and vokes of course

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Good Ninjas don't need to use their spells to keep hate.

Good players won't use Ninjas at all.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

One thing I'd like to see is a trait for PLD that makes our cures generate more enmity. My paladin is hardly a healer, but if I'm saving someone's ass, I should be rewarded. Another option would be to give PLD's cures a trait that lowered their target's enmity.

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PLD's cures "do" generate more enmity currently. RDM WHM SCH all have the Tranquil Heart job trait that lowers enmity of cures based on healing magic skill up to -25% enmity. So PLD effectively generates 25% more enmity with cure IV then RDM WHM SCH given they aren't subbing those jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jem

PLD's cures "do" generate more enmity currently. RDM WHM SCH all have the Tranquil Heart job trait that lowers enmity of cures based on healing magic skill up to -25% enmity. So PLD effectively generates 25% more enmity with cure IV then RDM WHM SCH given they aren't subbing those jobs.

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Right, so my cure IV for 550 generates 206 enmity vs the whm's 550 doing 165. I'm not worried about outhating the WHM, the ragnarok next to me is my concern, and seeing my cure-kit worth its casting time would be nice. No different than ninjas wanting to keep proper hate on their spells rather than seeing them nerfed.

Edit: Also posted below, but as Economizer pointed out, a whm c4 for 550 is awful, I meant to say that was just an example.

Oops. I really meant to point out that a whm would be curing for more. The worst whm's in the game have at least +20% cure potency, more mnd, and questionable healing skill. I was just saying that a mage healing for the same amount.

Apologies.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Right, so my cure IV for 550 generates 206 enmity vs the whm's 550 doing 165.

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If the White Mage isn't curing at least in the neighborhood of 800 HP with a Cure IV, then there is something wrong with your White Mage. Good White Mages should be able to 850 HP fairly easily - curing over 50% more then you are and getting the enmity to match. Scholars with weather boosts can push this number even higher (breaking 950 or even 1000 HP depending on gear).

As a side note, although it can be debatable whether or not stacking enmity would be better, if you go all out on a cure set including using a Sanus Ensis, you can push numbers closer to 680, and if you capped out received cure potency at the cap of 30%, (which is possible but hard without a Corsair unless you feel like dropping your Ochain for an Adamas) that it has you can even push 880 or slightly higher on yourself.

White Mages are best off doing their best to exploit cureskin (which prevents the tank from losing as much enmity from getting hit for damage), while Scholars should be doing their best to exploit Regen V and their Animus spells. Back in the days when the max level was still 75 White Mages that were managing enmity well could even get away with casting in a Flash rotation with the Paladin so that the mob's TP moves were nullified, but I think we might not be able to see this clever and skillful play anymore based on people's reports.

Oops. I really meant to point out that a whm would be curing for more. The worst whm's in the game have at least +20% cure potency, more mnd, and questionable healing skill. I was just saying that a mage healing for the same amount.

Apologies.

Hello,

Thanks for the feedback thus far since my previous post.

We've seen a couple of questions, so I would like to provide some responses.

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What about enmity changes for Dia and Helix spells?

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• Dia
  While this is a spell that has a static amount of enmity, the amount of enmity generated is extremely low, so we removed it from the scope of our adjustments.
  
  
• Helix spells
  The enmity for these spells depends on the effect, so it was removed from the scope of our adjustments.
  
  Similar to elemental magic, the enmity generated is proportionate to the damage dealt.

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Originally Posted by Siven

Uhh, what about summoner job abilities…?

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Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

Also, while on the subject of pet jobs, below are some notes about beastmaster's job abilities that were not included on the list:

• Ready
  This ability does not generate enmity.
  
  
• Spur/Run Wild
  While these abilities have a static amount of enmity generation, they are time volatile, and because the amount is lost every second it was removed from the scope of our adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Why would you reduce enmity values on NIN spells?

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With ninja itself in mind, we understand that it would be best to increase the enmity for ninjutsu.
With that said, we will be going a separate route of adjustment so that ninjas can control enmity better.

However, we've included ninjutsu in the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

blue mages forgotten?

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We will not be adjusting enmity on blue magic because we feel that blue mage is a job that can better withstand a beating in the event that they pull hate from the target.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

If Barspells are generating too much enmity... surely the WHM AOE versions should also receive an enmity decrease?

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The AoE Bar- spells were removed from the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that the amount of enmity is very low. While the enmity depends on the amount of party members, the effect duration is quite long and is normally cast before battle, and if you need to it cast during battle, it's something you can use when Provoke and other front-line job enmity generation methods are being used.

thank you camate, great to know that BLU and NIN can be effective tanks again :D; however, just 2 quetions (both still regarding SMN); is summoning magic enmity going to be decreased, there is a whole other thread just regarding that question... it seems that most of us smn solo artists are having difficulty keeping enmity on our avatar while camping, due to the fact that we are getting too much enmity just by casting the summons. Second question is you did not include assault in there, is that going to remain the same where it's an introductory very minimal hate generator, or does it produce a lot more now, and we just have to hope the monster gets enmity on us for the pet to auto-attack.

PS I did remember, is it possible that you could make Blood pacts generate more enmity, since that would help solo-summoners/party-summoners have their pets tank?

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Originally Posted by Camate

With ninja itself in mind, we understand that it would be best to increase the enmity for ninjutsu.
With that said, we will be going a separate route of adjustment so that ninjas can control enmity better.

However, we've included ninjutsu in the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.

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>_>

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Originally Posted by Camate

However, we've included ninjutsu in the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.

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;>_>

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Originally Posted by Camate

red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.

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Problems like RDM actually being good and useful you mean!

No but really, you are singling out RDM as your reasoning for this change after you have left the job dead for the last couple years with no sign of making it actually wanted again?

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Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

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ORLY something is really bugged then in my book....

I would like to know why, when on beast you let your pet go for a few min's on a mob,you attack hit the mob one time and it turns on me? I turn snarl turn back one hit and bamm attacked again.Even pld going full bore use ab,heal,shield bash,flash,and whm heals and takes all hate.Now i may not be the best pld out there,with the best gear,but this is just wrong!!! Well back to the solo/slow mode till fixed i guess...........just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Problems like RDM actually being good and useful you mean!

No but really, you are singling out RDM as your reasoning for this change after you have left the job dead for the last couple years with no sign of making it actually wanted again?

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I like how he says "cause the same issues", as if rdm healers/casters were going /nin and spamming ninjutsu just to mess with hate.

It's a lot more honest to say "to prevent rdm from tanking", even though they simultaneously say blu mage can handle hate, so blu's hate generation is fine.

I'd also really appreciate some feedback on curekits and their viability and am pretty disappointed he didn't touch on that at all.

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Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn

ORLY something is really bugged then in my book....

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All actions produce 1 CE minimum so obviously it produces some hate, just not much. The reason pets keep losing hate is because they gimp compared to players. Damage from pets took the same reduction that players received. Whatever hate the pet is generating is being instantly lost when they take damage and so when the SMN use's that 1 CE ability it puts them 1CE over their pet.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I like how he says "cause the same issues", as if rdm healers/casters were going /nin and spamming ninjutsu just to mess with hate.

It's a lot more honest to say "to prevent rdm from tanking", even though they simultaneously say blu mage can handle hate, so blu's hate generation is fine.

I'd also really appreciate some feedback on curekits and their viability and am pretty disappointed he didn't touch on that at all.

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*Slams head on desk*

"Cure kits" are exactly the same as they were three months ago. Which is useless. Enmity from healing took the same reduction that damage did and thus is not any better then it was before. Your better off slamming your head into the monsters fist to generate enmity then trying to build it via cure spam.

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Originally Posted by saevel

*Slams head on desk*

"Cure kits" are exactly the same as they were three months ago. Which is useless. Enmity from healing took the same reduction that damage did and thus is not any better then it was before. Your better off slamming your head into the monsters fist to generate enmity then trying to build it via cure spam.

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I know that. But three months ago, tanking was pretty much gone. THey want to fix enmity.. Last time enmity worked, cure kits were a viable part of that. Calm down.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I like how he says "cause the same issues", as if rdm healers/casters were going /nin and spamming ninjutsu just to mess with hate.

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I think it was more aimed at preventing RDM from tanking like it used to back at 75 when it was a beastly job, if it could hold better hate with those spells basically it would have an advantage in tanking, especially with the lower recast. Problem is, if that were possible at least RDM can take a hit just like BLU like you said, and also RDM might see some use again, where as right now, no one asks for RDM, RDM is the job you take when its offered and you literally have no better options available to you at the time.

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Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

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What causes a monster to turn to face me when I use them then?

TLDR
1) how dare did you guys use rdm as a tank back then? blasphemy! btw, we are still so terrified by the possibiliy of rdm tanking for some reason.
2) you can use barspells while the tanks are maintaining hate but that doesn't apply to any of those spells and JAs getting their enmity values nerfed, right?... we haz the best logic ever.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I know that. But three months ago, tanking was pretty much gone. THey want to fix enmity.. Last time enmity worked, cure kits were a viable part of that. Calm down.

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Cure kits rightfully died a horrible death as the level when up (and their CE multiplier went down).

Please people, for the love of FFXI learn the actual mechanics behind the enmity system. People have already taken tons of their personal time and done all the hard work, you only need to read.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity%20table!

"Heal spam" has never been better then smacking sh1t to generated hate, notably CE. The only time it was ever useful was when the PLD was unbuffed or not engaged. If SE wants to create "real" tanking then their going to have to attack the core of the problem, there are no significant hate generating abilities in the game on a short enough timer to matter. Alter provoke (just example) to generate 500~1000 CE and then it will be a viable hate tool.

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Originally Posted by Areayea

thank you camate, great to know that BLU and NIN can be effective tanks again :D; however, just 2 quetions (both still regarding SMN); is summoning magic enmity going to be decreased, there is a whole other thread just regarding that question... it seems that most of us smn solo artists are having difficulty keeping enmity on our avatar while camping, due to the fact that we are getting too much enmity just by casting the summons. Second question is you did not include assault in there, is that going to remain the same where it's an introductory very minimal hate generator, or does it produce a lot more now, and we just have to hope the monster gets enmity on us for the pet to auto-attack.

PS I did remember, is it possible that you could make Blood pacts generate more enmity, since that would help solo-summoners/party-summoners have their pets tank?

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Summoning magic never generated much enmity. I assume you are actually asking about pet melee attacks and damage from BPs. A little clarity goes a long way.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Cure kits rightfully died a horrible death as the level when up (and their CE multiplier went down).

Please people, for the love of FFXI learn the actual mechanics behind the enmity system. People have already taken tons of their personal time and done all the hard work, you only need to read.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity%20table!

"Heal spam" has never been better then smacking sh1t to generated hate, notably CE. The only time it was ever useful was when the PLD was unbuffed or not engaged. If SE wants to create "real" tanking then their going to have to attack the core of the problem, there are no significant hate generating abilities in the game on a short enough timer to matter. Alter provoke (just example) to generate 500~1000 CE and then it will be a viable hate tool.

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It was viable during certain parts of the game, particularly when the mob was invincible (or stoneskin) or PD'd? It was a helpful tool when kiting, just like using /nin ichi tool was. Cure kits were used by people who did know the enmity mechanics and why they did work, and when they didn't. PLD sucked against high defense mobs, besides SE's gift of Spirits Within, and much later, Atonement. Mobs could mitigate our offensive power, but how much we could heal for was all on us.

I loved the CE/VE system and that this game has the most complex (not "complicated") hate system of any game I've played. If you're good at it, you could watch it in action and understand exactly why the mob was doing what it was doing.

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Originally Posted by Camate

With ninja itself in mind, we understand that it would be best to increase the enmity for ninjutsu.
With that said, we will be going a separate route of adjustment so that ninjas can control enmity better.

However, we've included ninjutsu in the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.



We will not be adjusting enmity on blue magic because we feel that blue mage is a job that can better withstand a beating in the event that they pull hate from the target.

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The logic behind these two statements seem contradictory to me. Similar to blue mage, red mage is also very capable of withstanding a beating if they pull hate. Why, then, allow blue mage to potentially tank, but not red mage?

SMN JAs might not generate emnity, but the damage done from the BPs are going to have to be given SOME amount of more emnity. When I can let Garuda auto attack for two rounds then fire off a BP:Rage and get hate from her from a simple Dia 2 there's gotta be something up? Maybe I'm just crazy? I've done Dia 2 and full round of buffing after a BP in the past and NEVER have gotten hate off my avatar. Of course that was in the past. :P Before update.

Camate, are there any plans to up the emnity of the damage generated from BP:Rage attacks, physical or magical? Or some form of emnity transfer to pet like BST has in snarl?

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Originally Posted by sweetidealism

The logic behind these two statements seem contradictory to me. Similar to blue mage, red mage is also very capable of withstanding a beating if they pull hate. Why, then, allow blue mage to potentially tank, but not red mage?

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Cause BLU never did what RDM did, it never tanked like a badass or soloed tons of things, so years later we must suffer for our past success.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Please people, for the love of FFXI learn the actual mechanics behind...

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didn't you get mass quoted a bit back to be wrong in everything you stated?

Wait what?! That whole SMN rubbish you posted is wrong Camate, last I checked when I use Blood Pacts I gain hate. So infanct unless my character is bugged, this happens for almost everyone else. You might want to look into it first before disregarding it!

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Originally Posted by sweetidealism

The logic behind these two statements seem contradictory to me. Similar to blue mage, red mage is also very capable of withstanding a beating if they pull hate. Why, then, allow blue mage to potentially tank, but not red mage?

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If I'm not mistaken, the difference is that rdm would do it well. Far better than blu would. With access to stronger refresh than blu, massive fast cast bonuses, protect and shell V, phalanx, and self-cures, and utsusemi while subbed nin, rdm is nearly impossible to kill. Handing them hate tools that are more effective than what other jobs have would be irresponsible unless it is your goal to redefine rdm from "jack of all trades, master of none" to "TANK ALL THE THINGS!!"

That being said, looking at the enmity values for ninjutsu (80CE,240VE for debuffs and 1CE,300VE for utsu), I don't see what's so scary about rdm spamming these things. Even with chainspell on, it takes about 3 seconds to cast a spell(accounting for animation delay before you can take another action), and the 300VE from utsu would be gone in 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

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I officially call BS. i cannot tell you the number of times ive used retreat AFTER THE AVATAR HAS HIT THE MONSTER, with ZERO prior enmity on my part, and retreat has caused the monster to target me. same with blood pacts wards. ive sent the avatar in, popped BP Ward, and the monster comes flying my way. methinks you need to research this. i think you have these abilities confused with assault, release and avatars favor.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What causes a monster to turn to face me when I use them then?

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because he hasnt done the proper research. hes confused with release, Avatars favor, and Assault

The fact that the dev team literally forgot that NIN is even considered a tank in their mad stampede to make sure that RDM could never, ever do anything remotely useful ever again tells me all I need to know about the future of job balance in this game--namely that it doesn't have one. I just unsubscribed. To everyone who's sticking around: good luck, you'll need it.