SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Its less that they haven't (they have) and more that what they've done hasn't been especially effective in most cases.

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I don't really agree, they've put out some bug fixes and playability improvements but the status quo hasn't really changed. WAR has always been somewhere near the top with SAM. DRK and MNK have usually been accepted near the top. DRG has always been considered a substandard 2 hander for as long as I've been playing. THF hasn't ever done good damage, RNG was good once and then the distance nerf came and they became a "specific fight only" job. WHM has always been the most capable healer in an alliance, the only real balance shift there was in the realm of 6 man exp parties when refresh became less important.

I think the only really significant "balance change" update that ever came about was the 2 hander buff and its subsequent nerf because they overdid it, and I think they only did that because they realized everyone was subbing nin and dual wielding axes instead of using 2 handed weapons like they intended. I suppose the move away from using tanks at all and just DD sponging could be considered a balance shift as well.

Throughout ToAU it was pretty much SAM SAM SAM SAM for everything. People took WARs but SAM was always far, far preferred over any other DD.

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WHM has always been the most capable healer in an alliance

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No it hasn't lol. RDM used to be chosen over WHM all the time. SCH coming out didn't help that at all either.

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DRK and MNK have usually been accepted near the top.

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DRK has never been near the top, except situationally for kclub zergs.

PUP and DRG both gradually moved up from god-awful to "still under-powered but useable."

They've made lots of changes and improvements over the years, but it's usually too little, too late. The time it takes them to realize there's a problem and then fix it is atrocious. Then they don't always go as far as they say they will. e.g. they said they were going to make PUP HTH skill A rank, but then only made it B+ when MNKs were never really in any danger of being dethroned.

I think my experience was different than yours.

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Throughout ToAU it was pretty much SAM SAM SAM SAM for everything. People took WARs but SAM was always far, far preferred over any other DD.

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In anything I've ever parsed they parsed nearly identically in almost every situation that allows for unhindered DD. Generally the only parse variances came from who I knew was a better player, and that went both ways between the jobs. Once the 2 hander buff came out, everyone I dealt with wanted to use WAR SAM DRK and MNK pretty interchangeably for anything I was involved with. Admittedly that wasn't kings, but I did every other end game event when it was current.

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No it hasn't lol. RDM used to be chosen over WHM all the time. SCH coming out didn't help that at all either.

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WHMs had superior control of status fixes, enmity management, aoe healing, and spent less mp per hp healed, and all you had to do was give them a refresh. 1 WHM and 1 RDM had better control of healing than 2 RDMs ever did in my experience. As for sch coming out, it made a very large difference in getting invited to merit parties. It also made the rest of endgame easier as WHM because it further accentuated WHM's advantages by improving mp efficiency further and giving a bit fast cast at the same time. RDMs could've subbed SCH and gained some benefits but in the circles I was with that wasn't really accepted.

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DRK has never been near the top, except situationally for kclub zergs.

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The only DRK I really played with had a relic, so maybe that's why I felt good about DRKs.

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PUP and DRG both gradually moved up from god-awful to "still under-powered but useable."

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I agree with this statement, but it doesn't diverge from my original point. In the status quo they're still in the same place, less desireable than the other jobs. Should they be equal? Warrior had loldefender as a defensive skill and DRK had gear that increased the damage they took and souleater. SAM was admittedly OP with a strong offensive output and amazing defensive skills, an oddball of the bunch, but generally the jobs with the ability to reduce or avoid damage, do less damage as a result. DRG could drop hate with jumps, MNK had passive avoidance with counter, NIN had utsusemi.

There was a time when RDM was on top for healing due to the limited sources of refresh. WHM was viewed as too high maintenance, and cure bombing was neither feasible nor necessary.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Throughout ToAU it was pretty much SAM SAM SAM SAM for everything. People took WARs but SAM was always far, far preferred over any other DD.

No it hasn't lol. RDM used to be chosen over WHM all the time. SCH coming out didn't help that at all either.

DRK has never been near the top, except situationally for kclub zergs.

PUP and DRG both gradually moved up from god-awful to "still under-powered but useable."

They've made lots of changes and improvements over the years, but it's usually too little, too late. The time it takes them to realize there's a problem and then fix it is atrocious. Then they don't always go as far as they say they will. e.g. they said they were going to make PUP HTH skill A rank, but then only made it B+ when MNKs were never really in any danger of being dethroned.

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Pretty sure I've seen DRK parsed very high too, although that's relic DRK.

SAM is bandwagon because it's easier to gear like today's DRK, so avg endgame player with no relic or super pimp gear can do pretty well(like how today's DRK can do very well with an OAT).

What everyone want in /shout doesn't mean it's always the best. A lot of times ppl just want X job because it's easier to get decently geared X job when you don't know who are you getting, even if Y job can do better with certain gears.

RDM chosen over WHM only happen in 6 person pt. Anything bigger than 6 person, like Einherjar etc, you'd have both.

The biggest problem right now is, and has been for a while, SMN. As far as endgame goes, SMN is a one-trick pony, and that one trick is being nerfed. SMN is getting a new SP ability that will temporarily relieve the biggest problem they have for a mere 30 seconds: The BP timer. Even after the rage/ward split, SMN is just idle while other people are beating the crap out of stuff and supporting. The only ways SMN can augment its performance at all really is to either 1) melee to increase damage output, or 2) cure people on subjob to increase support capability. Neither of these things really does enough to bring SMN to the same level as other jobs for either a source of damage OR a support. Get rid of the BP timer/make it really short; or (because of timer limitations) implement a charge system, so that at least SMN can do some burst damage or get multiple buffs up.

You may have seen me being a proponent of melee on SMN; the reason I do this is because i feel like I have to, just to bring the job up a little bit. People shouldn't *have* to do this to strengthen the job, as fun as it is for me to play it this way. It should be strong already. Doesn't Summoner usually have a reputation of power in most FF games?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Your evading the issue about Legion, it's a whole helluva lot higher then 5%. Mathed out it's more like 15% or more.

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You are mathing wrong then. It is actually ~3% assuming the ukon war isn't a moron and gears for str instead of crit damage on ukkos. Ragnarok is overpowered because of 2 things, resolution and 14% crit rate. The crit rate being removed in mul hurts ragnarok badly, not just ukon. It is worth mentioning that a bravura upheaval war isn't very far behind either, another 2-3%.

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Originally Posted by Mercilessturtle

You are mathing wrong then. It is actually ~3% assuming the ukon war isn't a moron and gears for str instead of crit damage on ukkos. Ragnarok is overpowered because of 2 things, resolution and 14% crit rate. The crit rate being removed in mul hurts ragnarok badly, not just ukon. It is worth mentioning that a bravura upheaval war isn't very far behind either, another 2-3%.

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Except that's not how Mul works. The NM's have Critical evasion bonus for a flat -%, Rag's crit bonus will put the user over floored crit hit rate, more if their doing BR cycle. Crit isn't ignored in Mul, it's simply reduced by a flat value which tends to hurt anyone who use's a predominately critical based WS.

You may wish to consider that if you are going to act like you are saying something contradictory in every reply you ever make, actually saying something contradictory would be a good idea.

There are more jobs than there are available slots in an 18 person alliance.
Someone (job) is always going to have to sit out.

Learn to play and love more than just 1 job, or prepare to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Sapphires

There are more jobs than there are available slots in an 18 person alliance.
Someone (job) is always going to have to sit out.

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This is true, however, there is not only 1 thing to do in the entire game, while there are many events there are just as many jobs left out of things entirely. There is no event RDM, PUP, or DRG are particularly amazing in when compared to other jobs, while there is also no event that a WAR or DRK is terrible for.

Who has just one job anymore?

I do not have just one job, however I main RDM, and like DRG, my GF's 2nd fav job is PUP. These 3 jobs are mostly ignored, and left out of events, while I do have DRK, she has BLM, its not always something we want to play, especially in my case where my main job is left out.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Who has just one job anymore?

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Mostly just newer players, I have 5 jobs and none of them are particularly popular for anything except SCH, and that popularity is about to go up in smoke in the next update.

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Originally Posted by Sapphires

There are more jobs than there are available slots in an 18 person alliance.
Someone (job) is always going to have to sit out.

Learn to play and love more than just 1 job, or prepare to be disappointed.

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There are a lot more than 2-4 jobs that get left out of those 18-person alliances.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

There are a lot more than 2-4 jobs that get left out of those 18-person alliances.

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Pretty much this. I'd be all for coming to endgame events as something other then BLM or SAM or BLU, but no one wants my RDM, or NIN, or BST a good portion of the time. You could include DNC as well, but I basically gave up on the job for the same reason its not getting to invites to endgame events either.

The job balance is in the toilet right now and all the endgame events are basically rigged in favor of the jobs that are on the winning side of the balance issue. It's all great and good to tell someone to level multiple jobs, but variety is the spice of life and not everyone is going to want to come XXX every time something needs to be killed. And for people to recommend past content as a solution aren't seeing the whole picture. At this point in time even IF a RDM could do lets say Limbus, or Dynamis, or Zeni Notorious Monster, or KS99 BC's solo, so too could most jobs in the game, and do it faster/Safer in a lot of other instances (such as BLU and SCH etc).

People who think balance is impossible have either no imagination at all for game development, or have never played any other MMO other than FFXI. Balance is very possible without having every class feel exactly the same/do the same damage.

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Originally Posted by Ramaza

Pretty much this. I'd be all for coming to endgame events as something other then BLM or SAM or BLU, but no one wants my RDM, or NIN, or BST a good portion of the time. You could include DNC as well, but I basically gave up on the job for the same reason its not getting to invites to endgame events either.

The job balance is in the toilet right now and all the endgame events are basically rigged in favor of the jobs that are on the winning side of the balance issue. It's all great and good to tell someone to level multiple jobs, but variety is the spice of life and not everyone is going to want to come XXX every time something needs to be killed. And for people to recommend past content as a solution aren't seeing the whole picture. At this point in time even IF a RDM could do lets say Limbus, or Dynamis, or Zeni Notorious Monster, or KS99 BC's solo, so too could most jobs in the game, and do it faster/Safer in a lot of other instances (such as BLU and SCH etc).

People who think balance is impossible have either no imagination at all for game development, or have never played any other MMO other than FFXI. Balance is very possible without having every class feel exactly the same/do the same damage.

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If you play other MMO, most MMO out there there are players cried about X class sucked all the time, I mean, all the time.

And they often have less classes than FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you play other MMO, most MMO out there there are players cried about X class sucked all the time, I mean, all the time.

And they often have less classes than FFXI.

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Well, the standard for balance is higher when you through serious PvP into the mix (probably why they never really took ballista seriously, they knew they'd never achieve solid balance), so this is where it becomes crying that your class parses the lowest, even when its <1% off what the number one class can do and it's a class that heals or supports in PvE...

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People who think balance is impossible have either no imagination at all for game development, or have never played any other MMO other than FFXI. Balance is very possible without having every class feel exactly the same/do the same damage.

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It's precisely because I've played many MMO's that I know balancing 20+ class's is impossible. I've already stated it at length but games can at most support ~6 class's prior to balance becoming an issue.

Pure Physical DPS
Pure Magic DPS
Pure Healer
Pure Tank

Then one to two hybrids or pet class's.

After you got that you end up with class's competing with each other for "the best damage" or "the best healing". Ultimately the developers end up playing a game of whack-a-mole where each cycle has them buff / nerf a different set of class's. One cycle the Warrior is the best DPS, then it's the Rogue, then it's the Hunter, then it's the Ret Pally, then it's the Warlock and so on / so forth. Players will constantly look to exploit various statistics to create builds that over-achieve. Once it's discovered there is a natural inclination to use those over-achieving builds in content, people who are not capable of those builds resent it and cry for a nerf / buff. Dev's come in and do such but in doing so effect some other aspect that is rapidly discovered and again another over-achieving build is created. Rinse-wash repeat.

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Ultimately the developers end up playing a game of whack-a-mole where each cycle has them buff / nerf a different set of class's...Players will constantly look to exploit various statistics to create builds that over-achieve.

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Yes, that is true...it's also true that in many well balanced MMOs the gap between various builds isn't 30% or more, which is the case with FFXI's situation, which you seem to be ignoring. People will clear pretty much every bit of content without specifically building a party of Ret Pallies/Hunters/Rogue/Popular Build etc, because the gap is almost never large enough for most people to bother looking for those builds specifically, and when it is, it is rightfully nerfed. I want to see you do the same thing with FFXI's Legion making an alliance of NINs as your tanks/holders and THFs, MNKs, and BLUs as your DPSs. I am not asking for perfect, 100% everyone does the same numerical damage balance. Nobody is stupid enough to ask for that.

And you're acting like making the developers play a game of cat-and-mouse with finding game mechanic exploits is somehow a bad thing. The first thing is that the alternative is for them to sit on their thumbs about it, which is hardly a better alternative, and the second is that the players often take a while to find out what superior builds actually are.

Also, it's often the case that in FFXI's particular situation, the search for superior builds has almost always been within the same circle of two-hander jobs, because a lot of the problems stem from how two-hander damage in general is calculated, and then you have the issue of lack of powerful JAs like Berserk or Last Resort combined with Hasso on other than 2 or 3 jobs further widening the gap.

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Originally Posted by detlef

There was a time when RDM was on top for healing due to the limited sources of refresh. WHM was viewed as too high maintenance, and cure bombing was neither feasible nor necessary.

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This. Now WHM/RDM can just take care of themselves.

The problem lies in that what once was the domain of a specific job, what made it valued- has become something subjobs can bring to another job instead- and nothing in the 76-99 range has replaced them, which narrows things down. If I was the devs, I'd be looking at abilities and spells in that level range that make people go "Oh, THAT'S what you need <job>" for!

If content becomes nothing but DPS + heal vs. monster, then logically that's what jobs get the nod, every time- along with whatever (staggers/TH) generates the most loot. Everyone else gets left on the doorstep.

The solutions are many, but one part of the problem is that so much of what makes a given job unique was allowed to bleed into subjobbing it. Being able to mix and match a lot of L35+ JA's and such was the wet dreams of many a L75-era player, and lo and behold it happened.

Make the jobs unique again, or we're in the MMO standard holy trinity of DPS, tank, heal + guy who pokes the mob for TH.

In an old style MMO like this the holy trinity is basically unavoidable. Making jobs unique does not have to be restricted to being within those roles though, and making a holy trinity role a job's defining role is probably a bad idea when there's so many of them.

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Originally Posted by Ramaza

Pretty much this. I'd be all for coming to endgame events as something other then BLM or SAM or BLU, but no one wants my RDM, or NIN, or BST a good portion of the time. You could include DNC as well, but I basically gave up on the job for the same reason its not getting to invites to endgame events either.

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The thing is, your NIN is incredible in Abyssea. Your BST is great in Dynamis. As for your RDM, I can't really help you too much there, although it is and always has been a very good Salvage healing job.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Who has just one job anymore?

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More like "Who can afford to have just one job anymore?"

And that's a problem. All jobs, when you hit endgame, should have value, and brute force generation shouldn't be the winner.

Encounters should frequently have "Man, if we had <job> on this run, it'd have been a lot smoother. There should be "speed bumps" that while they don't stop people, they do slow them down. Spam physical DPS on a mob? "Reflects/redirects attack" effect that needs dispelling, like waaay back when we were slapping crawlers and crabs around and every time the thing Cocooned up, you needed removal to keep the exp chain going. Mobs that have huge -PDT/-MDT that's weakened by debuffing them. Mobs that have nasty special or even normal attacks/defenses that cripples a player (TP/MP drains or "Weakness Spikes", for example) but has no effect on pets/autos/drakes, leaving them fighting each other on more even terms. Something that forces a mix of effort besides "Hit it with a bigger axe."

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Originally Posted by detlef

The thing is, your NIN is incredible in Abyssea. Your BST is great in Dynamis. As for your RDM, I can't really help you too much there, although it is and always has been a very good Salvage healing job.

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But thats the thing though, I don't wanna play my NIN in just abyssea, I wanna take it to Voidwatcher. I don't wanna play my BST in just Dynamis, I wanna take it to Legion, and the same goes for my RDM. Old content is not the solution to make jobs that are being sidelined viable again.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

The solutions are many, but one part of the problem is that so much of what makes a given job unique was allowed to bleed into subjobbing it. Being able to mix and match a lot of L35+ JA's and such was the wet dreams of many a L75-era player, and lo and behold it happened.

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Subjobs are what make FFXI an unique MMORPG... it is also its curse as it makes job uniqueness go down the toilet. The devs should really look at removing certain abilities for a job when it is subbed (spells included).

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Originally Posted by Kincard

In an old style MMO like this the holy trinity is basically unavoidable. Making jobs unique does not have to be restricted to being within those roles though, and making a holy trinity role a job's defining role is probably a bad idea when there's so many of them.

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This man gets it. Uniqueness can still be had even in the holy trinity.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Yes, that is true...it's also true that in many well balanced MMOs the gap between various builds isn't 30% or more, which is the case with FFXI's situation, which you seem to be ignoring. People will clear pretty much every bit of content without specifically building a party of Ret Pallies/Hunters/Rogue/Popular Build etc, because the gap is almost never large enough for most people to bother looking for those builds specifically, and when it is, it is rightfully nerfed. I want to see you do the same thing with FFXI's Legion making an alliance of NINs as your tanks/holders and THFs, MNKs, and BLUs as your DPSs. I am not asking for perfect, 100% everyone does the same numerical damage balance. Nobody is stupid enough to ask for that.

And you're acting like making the developers play a game of cat-and-mouse with finding game mechanic exploits is somehow a bad thing. The first thing is that the alternative is for them to sit on their thumbs about it, which is hardly a better alternative, and the second is that the players often take a while to find out what superior builds actually are.

Also, it's often the case that in FFXI's particular situation, the search for superior builds has almost always been within the same circle of two-hander jobs, because a lot of the problems stem from how two-hander damage in general is calculated, and then you have the issue of lack of powerful JAs like Berserk or Last Resort combined with Hasso on other than 2 or 3 jobs further widening the gap.

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If you only chose one job in FFXI then what your saying is true. Fortunately (or not depending) we can walk to our pet moogle and *BAM* instantly respec / change jobs. This ends up exasperating the problem by enabling high end players to always be capable of doing the "near perfect" setup. Why would anyone bring a non-perfect job when they can change to the perfect job or be replaced by someone else. The only time this is no longer an issue is when the jobs in question are so similar that their functionally identical in 90% of cases. DRK vs WAR for example.

There are only so many knobs and dials you can introduce to create variety, ultimately we all smack things really hard to get loot. There are only so many ways you can smack a pinata to get the candy.

The ability to change jobs is great. The inabiity to quickly transfer gear and the limited space with which to store said gear makes a simple job change a little more complicated than just harassing my moogle and then going off to have fun. I only play a few jobs but gearing them has taken up all of my storage slots, I have 3 mules just to hold all of my gear, situational pieces that aren't often used as well as full sets I use often.

So while I can just change to the "perfect" job, it can only be one that I have well geared and due to our inventory restrictions I can only reliably gear a few jobs before hitting a brick wall in terms of space requirements. Anyone else playing faces the same situation, and they have to hope that at least one of their jobs is desirable for X or Y event.

Addendum: Job changes should not be the only workaround for poor game balance.

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Addendum: Job changes should not be the only workaround for poor game balance.

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Of course not, content needs to be designed with the effects of each job in consideration. But it's impossible for content to completely compensate for <insert job here>'s shortcomings, without resorting to cheap/cheesy gimmicks (e.g. this monster takes 200% damage from automatons, or Steps and Flourishes are 2x as effective against this monster, and is immune to great axe weaponskills)

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If you only chose one job in FFXI then what your saying is true. Fortunately (or not depending) we can walk to our pet moogle and *BAM* instantly respec / change jobs. This ends up exasperating the problem by enabling high end players to always be capable of doing the "near perfect" setup. Why would anyone bring a non-perfect job when they can change to the perfect job or be replaced by someone else. The only time this is no longer an issue is when the jobs in question are so similar that their functionally identical in 90% of cases. DRK vs WAR for example.

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Except you can apply that logic to other games because other games don't charge extra for more characters.

"Why take x person when we can take y person?"
"Why take x character when you can hop onto your y toon instead?"

In other games it's pretty normal for people to play multiple characters in compensation for the fact that a job change system doesn't exist. The same logic would apply, but it doesn't because there generally isn't that gigantic gap between classes like this game has.

And, WAR vs DRK, as you said, are pretty much functionally identical when it comes down to just filling in a holy trinity role (in this case damage). They still have unique function such as fell cleave, multiple high skill weapons VS absorb spells and twilight scythe etc. This should be the philosophy when designing other Damage jobs. Make them capable of dealing damage, and then add unique things to their role to make sure not every job is the same. It's precisely because that there's only so many ways to crack the pinata that it's important to try to make it so that everyone can function as the bat in about the same manner when that's the main attraction. I can use either a golf club or a bat of the same length to crack the pinata about the same, but when i go play baseball or golf obviously I"ll choose one over the other.

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Originally Posted by Ramaza

But thats the thing though, I don't wanna play my NIN in just abyssea, I wanna take it to Voidwatcher. I don't wanna play my BST in just Dynamis, I wanna take it to Legion, and the same goes for my RDM. Old content is not the solution to make jobs that are being sidelined viable again.

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The issue with Legion is the time limit and the essentially unending waves of mobs. If there was just one NM that had to be killed within 30 minutes and "perfect" groups could kill it in 5-10 minutes, then sure there could be a place for any job. Time would never be a factor, and it wouldn't matter how quickly or efficiently you killed it so long as you didn't time out. However, Legion does reward kill speed with additional NMs to kill. In such an environment, while anything less than the best can still be competent or somewhat competitive, you'd always be hurting yourself by bringing a NIN, BST, or RDM instead of something else.

Legion is only one event though and it is unique in that regard in today's game.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Legion is only one event though and it is unique in that regard in today's game.

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So basically the ultimate endgame large group activity is only meant for a handful of jobs no matter how much time, gil, and effort one may put into one of the unfavorite jobs. It's OK though because some of those unwanted jobs might be good for some other thing. Is that about the size of it? That sounds kind of stupid to me.

Oh I agree. I prefer the old model of slightly easier, more forgiving battlefields with a more forgiving time limit. I also prefer being rewarded for killing something rather than being rewarded for how quickly it was killed.

But again, Legion is only one event in the game and for the vast majority of players, you aren't missing anything by not participating.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Oh I agree. I prefer the old model of slightly easier, more forgiving battlefields with a more forgiving time limit. I also prefer being rewarded for killing something rather than being rewarded for how quickly it was killed.

But again, Legion is only one event in the game and for the vast majority of players, you aren't missing anything by not participating.

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You don't get a chance to obtain awesome gears in legion unless you find a LS to merc for you. So you can't really say "you aren't missing anything by not participating".