Fostering Skillful Play

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godofgods

I would actually have to agree with the majority on this one. The macro system is messed up. Personally i never liked the idea of gear swapping in the middle of battle anyway, but SE has decided to move in that direction by creating tons of equipment with stats that serve for just that purpose.

But moving in that direction and then limiting macro's are counter productive of each other. If your playing legitimately, and you have a full gear swap, your looking at around 3 macros. Then a WS macro. Then 3 more macros to get back to what you had. Thats insain. It takes almost an entire book of macros to do a single action.

The botting argument for not wanting to increase macro space never made much sense to me either. (Unless you increased it to like 2000 lines lol) The macros are very simplistic. Its not like you can use an IF - THEN inside one. And if it were increased to 15-20 lines, its still not like u could press a macro and come back in 6 hours and see your character still at it. Alls that does is decrease the amount of times i have to press the key on my keyboard while I'm sitting here forever.

Last point is that the majority of the player base already uses some form of increased macros or spell casts. People that don't use them (like me) are very hard to find. Which means the only ppl really hurting from this are those that are 'playing by the rules'. And thats a pretty bad way to act towards those players that are paying for this.

---

That is what I do and if you want insane look at my blm. (keep in mind it was 75 game so no hmp rings)

Hit 2 buttons to rest, then two buttons to lower hp. then two more buttons to be in my nuking power set. (line 9)

Scroll down to line 4 for each element ( line 4 for level 4 spells) then next to the 6 spells is a "god gear" switch for substituting elemental skill and some over stuff the power set used in line 9. Of course in practice I got good at hitting all these buttons, as soon as i stopped resting i would hit my lower hp trigger and gear up macros, then hit the spell and then if i needed the god gear button I would hit that while the spell is casted.

There is a simple solution to fixing this. If SE does not like windower ( and I really hate that I am the only one on PC that does not use those 'cheats' and yet Se lets them get away with it (So why have the salavge bans? that was wrong to do since it is a hypercritical stance)

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.

Part of me likes the idea of having situational gear as it reflects the person knows what they are doing. FFXI is not programmed properly to fully support such an idea however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phogg

I wouldn't pay for it by itself, but if it were part of a legit expansion similar to how WoW was upgraded I would be on board.

---

This. Basically, either as something similar to the mini-expansions or as a graphics update that goes with SoA or the expansion after it. Polishing the graphics files for modern-era systems would allow PS2 play to continue while helping to bring the look of the game closer to current-day standards. I'm not expecting FFXIV-level graphics upgrades, but any DAT remodeler can tell you that there's room to improve- and since graphics are client-side files, they can be made to have more "oomph" without mucking with the essentials. Goodness knows there's plenty of folks out there already playing with fan-made graphics files to do so as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.

Part of me likes the idea of having situational gear as it reflects the person knows what they are doing. FFXI is not programmed properly to fully support such an idea however.

---

Gearswap is indeed one of the primary reasons the FFXI-standard UI is considered flawed. Late-game play strongly encourages changing outfits on-the-fly. I can, however theorize a solution to this that would be doable under the PS2-level programming, and indeed would increase console player functionality.

Add a "dressup" button to the menu, similar to the macros one. Start it with 20 buttons, labeled 1-20 that can be renamed as the player likes. Dressup would be linked to macros- there'd be a "dressup" for each set. When a button is selected, you can either have it Copy, Paste, Delete, Gear, Show. C/P/D work like a regular macro. Gear takes a snapshot of whatever you're wearing at the time and saves it to the button in question. Show displays the saved equipment layout for that button. By this method, you would be able to save gear configurations for whatever you desire to go with a macro set and use them.

Then add the /dressup command. /dressup (number) will attempt to equip you in the gear saved in that button to the best of it's ability, skipping anything you don't actually have in inventory. This command can then be placed in macros, allowing you to macro in full gear swaps, just like people with extended-macro layouts for PC's can do.

Voila, you've just done wonders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.

---

This, seriously, if the game doesn't have this many jobs and situational gears, more than half of the content will be dead by now XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rustic

Add a "dressup" button to the menu, similar to the macros one. Start it with 20 buttons, labeled 1-20 that can be renamed as the player likes. Dressup would be linked to macros- there'd be a "dressup" for each set. When a button is selected, you can either have it Copy, Paste, Delete, Gear, Show. C/P/D work like a regular macro. Gear takes a snapshot of whatever you're wearing at the time and saves it to the button in question. Show displays the saved equipment layout for that button. By this method, you would be able to save gear configurations for whatever you desire to go with a macro set and use them.

Then add the /dressup command. /dressup (number) will attempt to equip you in the gear saved in that button to the best of it's ability, skipping anything you don't actually have in inventory. This command can then be placed in macros, allowing you to macro in full gear swaps, just like people with extended-macro layouts for PC's can do.

Voila, you've just done wonders.

---

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

Next on the list they are discussing now is the role of Dark Knight and zerging tactics. They want more skill to the bosses instead of the "kill it as fast as you can" mantra. Another topic under discussion is the exploitation of exp chains. Exp chains were meant to be a reward for players who through team work, killed mobs faster by pulling quickly and defeating them one at a time. They see the current AoE mass slaughter of gaining exp chains as an exploit to skillfull gameplay (be it by magic AoE spells or AoE WSes). They are debating ways to take that option off of the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

---

Perhaps you could mention that no RMT in his right mind would choose to use the in-game macro system over spellcast anyways? I doubt that changes to the macro system would have any effect whatsoever on RMT activities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

Next on the list they are discussing now is the role of Dark Knight and zerging tactics. They want more skill to the bosses instead of the "kill it as fast as you can" mantra.

---

I'm fine with spending an hour killing one monster if that monster has an incredibly high drop rate. If they leave drops how they are now and increase the difficulty of content though, they might as well just turn the lights off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

Another topic under discussion is the exploitation of exp chains. Exp chains were meant to be a reward for players who through team work, killed mobs faster by pulling quickly and defeating them one at a time. They see the current AoE mass slaughter of gaining exp chains as an exploit to skillfull gameplay (be it by magic AoE spells or AoE WSes). They are debating ways to take that option off of the table.

---

That is a dumb idea on so many levels, but I know you're not going to tell them that I said that. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

That is a dumb idea on so many levels, but I know you're not going to tell them that I said that. ;)

---

Eh, there are many schools of thought about this on the forums. Some agree, some don't. The dev is looking to foster more "skill" in gameplay. The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general. Matsui is going to get a translation of everything in this NA thread. Anything you post here, he will read... so if you want to tell them, now's the time. :3

The other forum is jumping from topic to topic with suggestions on improvement. There are some good ideas out there but seldom are asking for a nerf. They are asking for additions or slight changes to the current system. Nothing there is really drastic one side or another. There is also a topic on discussing the current leadership in FFXI and certain interviews from the press.

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godofgods

I would actually have to agree with the majority on this one. The macro system is messed up. Personally i never liked the idea of gear swapping in the middle of battle anyway, but SE has decided to move in that direction by creating tons of equipment with stats that serve for just that purpose.

---

I've always thought this was loltastic, they've even stated they were against it but have since moved in the opposite direction and yet refuse to address macro line limitations. I currently use 3 macros just to hit a 4th macro to use Ruinator, trust me when I say it's horrid. I play on Xbox though, so I guess I can't complain.

E: I didn't even mention my WHM macros. There are literally pages of them. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general.

---

This is because the Japanese forum is heavily moderated as the Admins there delete posts that are unrelated or off-topic. This is very unlike the NA as they let us run rampant until the end of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

Eh, there are many schools of thought about this on the forums. Some agree, some don't. The dev is looking to foster more "skill" in gameplay. The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general. Matsui is going to get a translation of everything in this NA thread. Anything you post here, he will read... so if you want to tell them, now's the time. :3

The other forum is jumping from topic to topic with suggestions on improvement. There are some good ideas out there but seldom are asking for a nerf. They are asking for additions or slight changes to the current system. Nothing there is really drastic one side or another. There is also a topic on discussing the current leadership in FFXI and certain interviews from the press.

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

---

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

---

Depends. Truth is, people will go for whatever's clearly the best over a sustained period of time.

AoEing is currently that. Being able to do it in alliances that can handle exping (with huge exp multipliers) at high rates with minimal people just turned out broken, IMHO. I don't think it's going away, but I also think it damages the game when you're getting better rates with two-three people doing the work for 18 vs. six people doing it all for themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

---

I'm not surprised. A lot of thoughts on UI get mirrored between player groups- it's just the language barrier (and until FFXI had it's own forums, a lack of easy direct communication) that means we get good ideas thought up in different ways towards the same problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

---

I agree. My only adjustment I would advocate add to this would be to restrict Abyssea to level 75+. That would in effect get rid of leechers and foster 6 party development outside of Abyssea if they adjusted the AoE just a tad like for example, one idea: Make mobs highly resistant to AoE spam. Have non-abby (and non-BCNM/mission mobs) resist a large amount of damage after each AoE done. Give the resistance a cool down of 60 seconds or so. That way players can't spam AoEs to get massive chains quickly. They would be more inclined to incorporate other strategies along with AoEs to get the chains they desire. If the cool down isn't too long, it would still allow AoEs to help gain those chains, but more skill and timing would be needed to do it correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

What FFXI needs is an overhauled GUI that makes it as easy to find players to do the same quest with. This should also apply to finding an exp party. This feature should always be active. A player should always be see a list of quests I am on by searching. They should also see what quests I have selected that I need help with as well.

It would allow players to click on their quest they are on, click on a button to find a match for a quest, mission or PT and *POOF*. A list of players should appear. They could then click on a player and engage in a /tell. There should also be an option to go /anon as well.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

松井です。

ご意見ありがとうございます。
ご指摘の点は、松井も重要なことだと考えています。

まだ、具体的な施策を提示できない状況ですが、
スタッフと共有して検討していきます。

（翻訳ありがとうございました）

---

Roughly translated: Matsui is.

Thank you for your comments.
The ideas you pointed out, I would say, are important.

But the situation is the same. We cannot provide information for the specific measures yet.
We will consider it, and have shared it with the staff.

(Thank you very much for the translation)

Edit: The forms are also asking for a way for NA players to type in Japenese text and visa versa easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I think the main concern is that this statement actually does mean something and will be pursued half-way. So, we'll be forced to drive nails with the handles of screwdrivers or forcibly hammer in screws.

---

I share the same concern here.

In addition to that, I'm the kind of gamer that likes to tinker around with stuff and experiment. Nothing was ever more frustrating that to hear "why are you subbing that job?" even back in the old days. When I play solo you might see me doing all kinds of weird things just.. well because, but stick me in a party and I'm just a cookie cutter whatever like everyone else.

I would like to see that change. I would like to see more wiggle room for experimentation in ALL aspects of the game. Not just in main/sub choice, but in party build choices, and gear set choices.

New gear shouldn't always make previous gear obsolete. I wouldn't mind seeing new gear that was different but equivelant to what already exists. Heck I would even be happy with new gear that was just reskinned versions of old gear.

I would like to see Evoliths with more "oomph" to their buffs if you will and a wider variety. I liked the idea of making and customizing gear that fits your play style but was disappointed in the options the Evoliths provided. I was further disappointed in seeing that this system was more or less pushed aside.

When the Trial of the Magians came out I was disappointed to see that once you reach certain branch points of a path, you're stuck on them. I would like to see a series of trials added that were not linked in fixed paths, but rather having a max number of trials for a weapon and being allowed to choose the trial that you want. Such as making a weapon/armor with a minor PDT- buff with a MND+ and AGI+ boost (or any other combination) for example. Maybe even include trials that gave a minor boost in some job abilities. This will allow us to think, plan, and consider the path of the weapon/armor and the trials taken on for it. Gear like this would reflect the play style of the player. Learning how to build and use it would foster skillful play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

There is a massive discussion going on in the Japanese forums right now on that very matter. As is the problem with inventory space.

---

Yes, thank you for the insight.

I sometimes wish the schools I went to had taught more than just French, Spanish, and Sign Language. Playing an international game like this makes the language barrier more apparent, frustrating, and daunting. It's little wonder that so many of the NA players, like myself, feel ignored or pushed aside.

I do however greatly appreciate the effort that goes into translating and reading ALL these posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

---

That is awesome and very reassuring to know.

@FrankReynolds:

Quote:

---

Perhaps you could mention that no RMT in his right mind would choose to use the in-game macro system over spellcast anyways? I doubt that changes to the macro system would have any effect whatsoever on RMT activities.

---

That was exactly my thought too. I can't believe RMT people aren't already using 3rd party programs to completely by-pass the current in-game macro system. What ever changes are made to the in-game macro system isn't going to have an impact on them other than maybe legit players can play on a more even ground. I can't see how that would be a bad thing. The more the legit players can do for themselves, the less the RMTs have to entice the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carth

This is because the Japanese forum is heavily moderated as the Admins there delete posts that are unrelated or off-topic. This is very unlike the NA as they let us run rampant until the end of time.

---

I'm not sure... it was my understanding that in Japan the focus is on the whole compared to the U.S. the focus is on the individual. With that in mind it makes sense to me that we see more group oriented thinking and suggestions on the Japanese forums than we do here in these forums. I'm not saying we Americans are selfish people, it's just that group oriented thinking is a rather alien process for many of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prrsha

The forms are also asking for a way for NA players to type in Japenese text and visa versa easily.

---

This would be incredibly helpful if they could it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caketime

I've always thought this was loltastic, they've even stated they were against it but have since moved in the opposite direction and yet refuse to address macro line limitations. I currently use 3 macros just to hit a 4th macro to use Ruinator, trust me when I say it's horrid. I play on Xbox though, so I guess I can't complain.

---

Oh i no. I dont use windower so im stuck with the same methods. Some times it can rly take the run out of what ever you are doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caketime

E: I didn't even mention my WHM macros. There are literally pages of them. :(

---

Thats another reason i find it insulting that they said they wern't going to add two new macro books for the two new jobs. Saying that 'we have enough already' ><

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godofgods

Oh i no. I dont use windower so im stuck with the same methods. Some times it can rly take the run out of what ever you are doing.



Thats another reason i find it insulting that they said they wern't going to add two new macro books for the two new jobs. Saying that 'we have enough already' ><

---

The tone so far is: We feel that players have enough marco lines already BUT we are looking into a way to equip an entire armor/weapon set in a single macro. I don't know if the reasoning behind this is truly about RMT or it is being used as such as an excuse to say: We can't add more macro lines due to PS2 limitations but we are working a way for you to equip an entire set of gear in a single macro line.

I agree that something has to be done with the current macro system. It shouldn't take 4 macros to change an entire set of gear (making me invisible half of the battle). I am happy with the ideas floating around with the compromise they are making making to fix this thus far however.

Yes, getting a one line gear set swap command would solve alot of the macro issues for so many people.