[dev1135] Beastmaster 2-Hour Ability Comments After Testing.

The sheep will give you 500 Stoneskin.... I bet'cha.

I have done server test to check the new 2 hours Bst but if stonesking is just like Mighty guard should be something really cool, SE said familiar was for pet and new one for master, stoneskin and regen should be nice then

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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Okipuit, can you please explain to the devs that the reason we're all so upset is because while we understand they want the duality of having an offensive and a defensive 2-hour ability, the problem is that while the offensive 2-hour augments our pet as it's supposed to seeing as how we are one with our beasts, the defensive 2-hour selfishly destroys our companion to give us a souped-up version of a spell that most mages can recast every 30 seconds. It is in no way comparable in strength to any other job's 2-hour ability but more importantly, it just makes no sense. A defensive 2-hour ability, if that is indeed what the devs think is best for the job, needs to augment the defensive capabilities of our pets and it would have to have a strength and duration that actually makes using it useful - something like pet damage taken -50% for at least 5 mins.

Of course, considering the devs went from Reraise to Stoneskin... I'm not expecting much of a change at this point. I just hope that they are at least hearing the large amount of dissent to this new 2-hour and will realize that there's only so much the player base will take before they just get frustrated by the lackluster sideways "improvements" they keep wasting their time with.

SE,

Please stop with the "kill your pet" abilities. I've forgotten I even have "Run Wild." What is so exciting about Dooming your pet or eating them to recover HP? I consider them my ally in battle. Why would I want to make them disappear? Isn't the enemy trying to do that?

Some future suggestions:
-Pet "Regain" effect (Not on an outdated Glyph Axe)
-Pet "Wall" effect (Protect/Shell)
-Pet "Drain Daze" effect
-Pet "Trance" effect (Free use of Charges)
-Pet "Unbridled Learning" effect (Thunderbolt/Nihility Song/Disorienting Waul/Frigid Shuffle/Mucilaginous Ooze/Petrifactive Breath/Etc, this existed in FF Tactics as "Monster Skill/Beastmaster")

It would be nice if, in the future, we could temporarily boost the ferocity of our pet. A "morale" boost, if you will, like "Spur," but with a little more empathic flavor.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Leonardus

SE,

Please stop with the "kill your pet" abilities. I've forgotten I even have "Run Wild." What is so exciting about Dooming your pet or eating them to recover HP? I consider them my ally in battle. Why would I want to make them disappear? Isn't the enemy trying to do that?

Some future suggestions:
-Pet "Regain" effect (Not on an outdated Glyph Axe)
-Pet "Wall" effect (Protect/Shell)
-Pet "Drain Daze" effect
-Pet "Trance" effect (Free use of Charges)
-Pet "Unbridled Learning" effect (Thunderbolt/Nihility Song/Disorienting Waul/Frigid Shuffle/Mucilaginous Ooze/Petrifactive Breath/Etc, this existed in FF Tactics as "Monster Skill/Beastmaster")

It would be nice if, in the future, we could temporarily boost the ferocity of our pet. A "morale" boost, if you will, like "Spur," but with a little more empathic flavor.

Thanks.

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At least with run wild I can pop it near the end of an nm fight to ease things along (assuming I'm warping out right after) But this, this is something else. Something without any real practical use. And as I've said before, it's the bsts that don't really know what they're doing that are more likely to find use for this 2hr than the ones who do. -.-

Dear dev team: you still don't understand. The core concept behind this ability is fatally flawed. We will not tell you how to "fix" this ability, because it cannot be done. There are two things you fail to understand here that I must now explain to you.

The first thing is, what makes a good 2 hour ability. Some of the best 2 hour abilities fall into the category of "ignoring restrictions". Examples include Manafont, which lets Black Mage ignore the restriction of having to use MP to cast magic, and Chainspell, which lets Red Mage ignore the restriction imposed by casting time.

Another category of 2 hour abilities is the category of "enhanced specialty", that is, allowing a job to do something they are already good at to the highest degree possible. Examples include Invincible, which is the natural progression of the Paladin's ability to reduce physical damage taken, and Benediction, which is the White Mage's ability to remove damage and negative status effects taken nearly as high as it can go. Even our current 2 hour ability, Familiar, lets us charm stronger pets for longer and thus mostly fits into this category.

However, these are not the only categories of 2 hour ability that exist. There is also the category of "sacrifice something valuable to do something your job is bad at", previously filled by the very worst 2 hour in existence, Mijin Gakure (in this case sacrificing your life to do non-elemental HP-based magical damage). Guess what category your proposed ability falls into? Yes, that's right, you guessed it--sacrifice something valuable (your pet) to do something your job is bad at (take damage). Not only is Mijin Gakure now not alone, it is no longer the worst 2 hour ability that there is. The pet is Beastmaster's defining trait and most important tool. Losing a pet is never good; wasting your 2 hour ability to do this to yourself is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do.

The second thing you need to learn is this: offensive utility always trumps defensive utility. "The best defense is a good offense." There is a reason Fire Geodes cost as much as the other types put together, and is because they are associated with boosting Strength and Attack--physical offense (the best type) in its purest form. You "win" in this game by killing monsters. 99% of the content in the game is based around doing this. 1% is based around avoiding monsters (HELMing and fishing). Precisely 0% of the game's content is based around minimizing damage. This is why Perfect Dodge is considered such a weak 2 hour ability. But at least it doesn't require the Thief using it to sacrifice something valuable to do so. Abilities that sacrifice offense for defense do not help you win, they just help you lose more slowly. The objective is not to lose at all, but to win, and this ability actively hinders that ultimate goal.

Now, dev team, you want to know what our 2 hour ability should do instead? Well, I'll tell you. I suggest that we get an ability that allows us to ignore the restriction of having only one pet at a time. Have the current pet go into a semi-NPC status, no longer controllable and attacking automatically, while allowing us to charm or call another normal pet. Certain enemy beastmasters, like Gig'ghi Cockchopper, can have 2 pets out at once. We should be able to do this too.

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Originally Posted by Minikom

I have done server test to check the new 2 hours Bst but if stonesking is just like Mighty guard should be something really cool, SE said familiar was for pet and new one for master, stoneskin and regen should be nice then

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Says on the JAP forum, Stoneskin is 1/2 the Pets HP.

Here is a quick fix i think would be good for bst 2 hr. Why not make it where when you use it the pet disappears but in its place either a HNM or NM type from the same family appears gives you some buffs and damage based off of there tp moves. Example would be like CC. When used she will disappear and be replaced by a huge crab that does scissior guard on you and then lets say bubble shower on the mob then disappears. That way will kind of keep the way they want to go and I as a bst wouldnt feel so bad about using it.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Says on the JAP forum, Stoneskin is 1/2 the Pets HP.

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Thank you Daniel_Hatcher for getting the info from the Japanese forums but now its official.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings!

During this week’s Test Server update we will be making the below changes and additions to the new 2-hour abilities.

• Beastmaster
  Reraise effect will be changed to a Stoneskin effect
  (The strength of the Stoneskin effect will differ depending on the type of jug pet called, and will be half of the pet’s max HP.)

While this week’s update will only encompass the above changes, we are continuing to look into other jobs as well, so there is a possibility for further changes and adjustments.

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I went ahead and took the Max HP of all the pets most commonly used at the 99 cap (with the acception of Nursery Nazuna at the level 86 Cap) and divided them in half for the total amount of damage the Stoneskin from each pet would absorb. Bellow is a list containing the totals.

Commonly used Jug Pet Stoneskin

• Lucky Lulush LV 99 (4912 HP): 2456 Stoneskin
  
• Dipper Yuly LV 99 (4092 HP): 2046 Stoneskin
  
• Nursery Nazuna LV 86 (5114 HP): 2557 Stoneskin
  
• Fatso Fargann LV 99 (4298 HP): 2149 Stoneskin
  
• Faithful Falcorr LV 99 (4968 HP): 2484 Stoneskin
  
• Gorefang Hobs LV 99 (5218 HP): 2609 Stoneskin
  
• Gooey Gerard LV 99 (4298 HP): 2149 Stoneskin
  
• Crude Raphie LV 99 (4212 HP): 2106 Stoneskin

The damage absorbed by the spell Stoneskin maxes at 350. While these numbers are far over the normal Stoneskin numbers we still need to know how long it lasts and if it can be dispelled. I'm still disappointed that this 2-hour kills off our pet in exchange for the various effects it gives and will continue to question when us Beastmasters would actually have a use for this. :confused:

As an addendum to Vandheer's list, anyone with 5/5 Beast Affinity merits and enhanced Monster Gloves +2 will have a level 99 NurseryNazuna with 6140 Max HP (3070 Stoneskin).

... I'll be very sad to see this 2-hour enter the main servers, as-is. There must be some sensible alternative that the Dev Team will consider. Please. ; ; I really like some of the suggestions in this thread, especially the one-time HNM summon and the Killer Effect boost. Both of these would make me feel like I had supreme dominion over the Beasts and Birds of Vana'diel and would be very fitting BST 2-hours.

It's very satisfying to see a long string of intimidation messages in the chatlog as a foe cowers in fear before you. Giving us 3 minutes of capped Killer Effects would give us that mighty Tarzan feeling, as our mere presence threatens oncoming hoards. If the Development Team is dead set on a defensive tactic for BST, this would be a fine way to go. It goes without saying, but there would be a -25% Damage Taken effect while wearing Ferine Gausape +2. And even for BSTs who don't have the AF3+2 body, there will still be a defensive solution in place with intimidation procs.

This would fall under the "Enhanced Specialty" category of 2-hours, and when applicable would be fun and empowering. Probably more fun than a Stoneskin effect which will be smashed into oblivion after several hits, followed by a lonesome BST hitting the ground.

So what you're saying is there will actually be a reason to have 5/5 beast affinity again? Oh good. -.-

If the overall duration is really long, I could see it being "eh, why not" for things where you have to run in and out(Carabosse changing to BLM mode, for example). Call pet, wait on call beast timer, eat pet, call new one, start fight. One improvement I would suggest is that the stoneskin also comes with any feral skills the pet had. If you could eat a pet and suddenly have huge specific damage reductions, it would make this situational but actually useful.

Also, I dare you to make the icon a picture of a chocobo head inside a hamburger bun.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

If the overall duration is really long, I could see it being "eh, why not" for things where you have to run in and out(Carabosse changing to BLM mode, for example). Call pet, wait on call beast timer, eat pet, call new one, start fight. One improvement I would suggest is that the stoneskin also comes with any feral skills the pet had. If you could eat a pet and suddenly have huge specific damage reductions, it would make this situational but actually useful.

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This is true if the duration was long it could be used for something like this but even that is still pushing it. If you were to call a pet just to eat it you would be tossing gil down the drain without even utilizing this 2-hours full effect. The other two parts of this effect are to heal the Beastmasters HP to full and to remove all debuffs. Saying you'd use it only for the Stoneskin is also funny because originally it didn't have any Stoneskin... it was a dinky reraise. Stoneskin is an improvement but so long as this 2-hour kills off the Beastmasters pet it will remain incredibly niche.

+1 for Chocoburger. If they're going to give us this horrible ability it might as well sport a humorous icon.

I just can't wait for the discovery that, while the Stoneskin provides 2000+ HP, it only has a 15 second duration.

I'm also waiting to discover that there's a cap they have neglected to tell us about.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I just can't wait for the discovery that, while the Stoneskin provides 2000+ HP, it only has a 15 second duration.

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Dont give them anymore ideas...

Ok, so, you modified the 2-hour, great, thanks for listening. Now for the comments...
IT STILL SUCKS!!!
we're a pet job, the job is built around and pretty much all about the pet, to 2hour, we have to waste the pet, survive through the repop timer and try to get things done AT OUR WEAKEST! BRILLIANT!

try again man, you're still failing miserably (the devs, not singling you out Cam...)

I honestly can't think of a single situation where I'd want to purposely waste a jug pet and try to play petless through a cool-down timer.

Do they really not understand that you wouldn't need stoneskin if you hadn't just one shotted your pet?

Apparently not, Frank. At this point I'm positive they don't play the job and have no idea what to do with it, hence this "defensive ability".

Anyone get around to testing the specifics of this Stoneskin effect? Its duration, if it has a cap (tough to test but would be good to know), if it can be dispelled... Until we get some more results we can work with theres nothing else we can do but continue to disagree with SE and this 2-hour and feed them our ideas for a 2-hour in hopes that they listen.

In the spoiler text bellow are two ideas for a new 2-hour we posted either of which I would like to see implemented to replace this new pet eating 2-hour.

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

I'd love to have a pet called via 2-hour that is a total badass. Ideally I'd like for the pet to stick around for 30 minutes just as Familiar makes charmed pets stick around for 30 minutes. The pet itself would have high stats to make it 2-hour worthy and not just an average pet perhaps with more then 1 killer trait. ;)

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Originally Posted by Hashmalum

I suggest that we get an ability that allows us to ignore the restriction of having only one pet at a time. Have the current pet go into a semi-NPC status, no longer controllable and attacking automatically, while allowing us to charm or call another normal pet. Certain enemy beastmasters, like Gig'ghi Cockchopper, can have 2 pets out at once. We should be able to do this too.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I have one request when submitting feedback. We have been seeing comments stating that “we don’t want this” and “totally remake it.” Your feedback is something we wish to utilize in our efforts to make the game better, so instead please try to be as specific as you can with how you’d like it aspects to change.

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You asked for us to be more specific with what we want SE, I do hope you know that implies your willing to listen.

Suggestion for a modified version of the Beastmaster 2 hour -

"Places your pet in a weakened state, in order to boost the master and parties defensive capabilities."

Pet: (Slow+20% Attack-50% Defense-50% and locks Ready/Snarl so TP moves cannot be used for the duration of the effect)

Effect: Grants a Stoneskin and Regen Effect to all members within range. (Regen is 100 hp / tick, Stoneskin effect roughly 1/4 the pets maximum HP) Duration: 2 minutes.
Secondary Effect: Master and Party members gain intimidation and defensive killer traits of the called pet at maximum capacity. (Secondary Effect only works with jug pets active). Duration: 1 minute.

The idea of having 2 active pets at once is too good to be true. But I'd like to say that would be fun to watch as well. I'd rather that not be a 2 hour though :P. (Make bst the only pet based job in the game capable of controlling more than 1 monster).

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Originally Posted by Raborn

The idea of having 2 active pets at once is too good to be true. But I'd like to say that would be fun to watch as well. I'd rather that not be a 2 hour though :P. (Make bst the only pet based job in the game capable of controlling more than 1 monster).

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What if it's only active for 5 minutes. After that the NPC-type leaves (or decharms). Hey, if SE absolutely demands that the new 2 hour get rid of our pet, that's ok... as long as it sticks around for 5 minutes of tag-teaming action first!

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

The new 2-hours were developed based on the idea that they would share the existing 2-hour ability's recast timer and players would be selecting which ability to use based on the situation. Instead of these being a higher-tier or universal abilities that can be used for any situation, they are abilities that are designed to be used for specialized conditions.

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Hmmm well I suppose this makes sense, they can't give us a 2-hour that calls 2 pets or a single badass pet because it would be better then Familiar. I can accept that but I can't accept killing off our pets. While I can easily see how this 2-hour would be used in a different situation then when wed use Familiar it is to dependent on the Beastmaster being underprepared for whatever they have gotten themselves into. Then of corse theres the issue of the legitimacy of "eating our pets" actually being applied to Beastmaster biased on the story and idea of the Beastmaster job itself.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Amongst the feedback we have been receiving, there have been a lot of comments about changing the effects, reducing the 2-hour recast time, removing the shared recast timer aspect, and other ideas for largely changing the concept. It may take a bit of time to discuss and look into all of these, but we are planning to spend time on this without rushing implementation so that these are abilities that everyone is satisfied with.

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This is good news that your willing to keep at this until everyone (the majority at least) is satisfied with these 2-hours. I don't mind Beastmaster having a 2-hour that shares a timer with familiar nor do i mind this concept of 2 different situational 2-hours... so long as the new 2-hour will actually have a use to Beastmaster and keeps to the ideas of the Beastmaster job.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The idea is that Familiar will increase the pet’s offensive capabilities, while the new 2-hour ability will enhance the master’s defensive capability.

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Familiar at its most basic is to increase the pet's offensive capabilities... (Though I'm unaware how it does this without Monster Trousers +2 for +10% Haste, anyone have any insight here?) This new 2-hour was supposed to enhance the master's defensive capabilities though its at the cost of our pet. Perhaps we can start in replacing this current new 2-hour by replacing the idea of enhancing the master's defensive capabilities? Ideas anyone?

I will share my own ideas once I've had a chance to brainstorm a bit and wrap my head around this.

I've just had a brilliant insight of what the beastmaster 2hr *should be*. Grant the 2hr to the pet specific to the job.
For example: The fish is warrior. Grant mighty strikes to the fish when the new 2hr is used.
The mandy is a monk. Grant hundread fists to the mandy when the new 2hr is used.

Why not reverse it? Refill the pets HP, increase the pet's max HP and give it a stone-skin effect equal to the HP of the master.

I think I like my idea better.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

I think I like my idea better.

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Better hope they don't give your war pet the new 2 hour ability instead :P

Square Enix has been waving a carrot over our heads about a new 2 hour for over a year, and this is the best they can come up with? Dev team should of got fired too.

After giving this some thought heres what I've come up with to re-address this new 2-hour.

With Familiar being Pet Offensive we could do Master Offensive? Perhaps Beastmaster utilizing a Killer Traits and understanding of Mobs to put the monster in a weakened state granting "Killer Mob Type" to everyone fighting the mob, preferably pets would be included. This would mean everyone attacking the mob has a good chance to intimidate the mob and is given a damage boost and damage reduction similar to how Ferine Gausape +2 gives to Beastmaster. The amount of Killer granted would be would add on to whatever amount of Killer Traits people already have to encourage using alongside Circle Effects and encourage use of different pets to line up the Killer Traits to utilizie Killer Instinct. While under the influence of this 2-hour the cap for Killer trait and buffs received from killer traits should be raised. :D

This is a rough idea of course and is up for tweaking so it isn't to OP but lets remember that this is a 2-hour were talking about. As always remember to leave a like if you like my line of thinking and in this case feel free to give your spin of my suggested new 2-hour or your idea of what Beastmasters new 2-hour should be. :)

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

With Familiar being Pet Offensive ...

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You lost me right about here.

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Originally Posted by Mavrick

You lost me...

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I know its a little weird however its not my logic.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The idea is that Familiar will increase the pet’s offensive capabilities, while the new 2-hour ability will enhance the master’s defensive capability.

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Perhaps its a typo on Camates part? I'm not sure... nor am I sure about how Familiar raises the pets offensive capabilities outside of Monster Trousers +2 giving 10% haste to our pet. However I also stated all this in my previous post (post #105). ^^

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

I know its a little weird however its not my logic.



Perhaps its a typo on Camates part? I'm not sure... nor am I sure about how Familiar raises the pets offensive capabilities outside of Monster Trousers +2 giving 10% haste to our pet. However I also stated all this in my previous post (post #105). ^^

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I ran a few tests after that post trying to see if it improved pet attack, but my results showed no improvement. Aside from the haste on trousers +2; I see no offensive improvement from familiar.

Thank you for doing testing on this Xilk. I went and searched the Japanese forums for their Japanese version of Camates post and translated it to find that Camate didn't translate wrong. Camate clearly says offense while from the translator Oriole specifies attack. How Familiar does it is beyond me and I will try to do some testing myself to see if I can figure it out.

Heres both copies of text for anyone else interested.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Beastmaster
  We will be keeping the HP recovery and status ailment recovery as is, but we will be changing the reraise effect to a stoneskin effect. The strength of the stoneskin effect will vary depending on the pet. The idea is that Familiar will increase the pet’s offensive capabilities, while the new 2-hour ability will enhance the master’s defensive capability.

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Originally Posted by Oriole

獣使い

HP回復、状態異常回復はそのままで、リレイズの効果→ストンスキンに変更します。
ストンスキンの効果量は呼び出したペットにより変化します。
獣使いの2Hアビリティは、使い魔がペットの攻撃面の底上げなのに対し、マスターの防御面を大幅に引き上げるという方向性で考えています。

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I guess were being lied to... Again.

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Originally Posted by deces

I guess were being lied to... Again.

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The Devs are nothing if not consistent!

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Do they really not understand that you wouldn't need stoneskin if you hadn't just one shotted your pet?

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methinks the devs got some spoiled fish in their sushi and came up with the new 2 hour while they were halucinating during the dehydration caused by explosive diarrhea Frank, so no, they probably DON'T get it...

Tip, cook the damn fish, it kills the various bad stuff that grows in it.

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

Thank you for doing testing on this Xilk. I went and searched the Japanese forums for their Japanese version of Camates post and translated it to find that Camate didn't translate wrong. Camate clearly says offense while from the translator Oriole specifies attack. How Familiar does it is beyond me and I will try to do some testing myself to see if I can figure it out.

Heres both copies of text for anyone else interested.

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I assume they're adding bst relic +2 legs which add the 10% haste to the 2hr. I suppose it counts, but it's pretty sketchy to call it an offensive 2hr considering a piece of gear is required to make it offensive.

Familiar was more of a 2 hour when it meant we could keep an IT pet.

There were actually fights where this was awesomely useful that is. you can still do it... but there is nothing in the game anymore where its worthwhile..

also, I would say familiar is both offense and defense. you get haste for offense now, and hp for defense.