In case meriting protectra V wasn't bad enough...

From Vana'Fest 2012:

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Protect will made 1.5x stronger, and Protectra V may be made 3-4x stronger

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Protectra V being changed to give bros 200+ defense would be extreme enough to make me re-think the spell's value. I suspect I'd also re-think how I prioritize casting and re-casting it.

It requires a huge amount of Defense to make a palpable difference, possibly to make any difference at all in some cases, but the post-change amounts could be that huge. Also, unlike Defender and food and buffs from Bard or Corsair, nothing with more utility has to be given up for Protect spells. It would be really interesting if Protectra V and its kin became more useful; I hope the Development bros decide to go the whole nine yards with this.

More than that, though, I hope this and similar changes mentioned are signs that the Development Bros are starting to take long and hard and rarely kind looks at under-performing elements within Final Fantasy XI. Defense and defense-increasing-abilities seem to have been over-valued by the Development Bros from day one and it would be super-cool if that stopped.

So, how long until Cannonball is nerfed after this change takes place?

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

From Vana'Fest 2012:

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Hmm. I get it's a merit spell but compared to others that's a HUGE bonus.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Hmm. I get it's a merit spell but compared to others that's a HUGE bonus.

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Try huge fix, because compared to other merit spells, Protectra V has been a waste of .DAT space.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Try huge fix, because compared to other merit spells, Protectra V has been a waste of .DAT space.

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It actually fits with the majority of merit spells.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

It actually fits with the majority of merit spells.

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Only now that we are 99. At 75, most other merit spells worked:

AM2, these were BLM's most powerful spells, and well worth using for a magic burst. Not so since tier 5 spells.
RDM enfeebles were so good at the time that often 2 RDMs would be taken to events, like for salvage, have the first rdm unlocked with dia3 and phalanx 2 (for trash mobs), while the other rdm has para/slow for the boss. Current content enfeeb resist makes most of them worthless now though.
San spells, more powerful than Ni spells, and still only cost 1 tool. Completely win in that respect, even at 99.
BRD, I can't really comment on. If they did have a good use at 75, or now, I never bothered with them. 5/5 T&N for me.

Happy Friday everyone :)

I’d like to share some information that might give a bit more insight and explanation to the Protect/Minne effect adjustments.

This adjustment mainly took place to turn these spells and songs’ effects into a percentage enhancement as opposed to a static value, so that the benefits can be felt more and more at higher levels. Therefore, currently existing spells such as blue magic and rolls that enhanced defense as a percentage are not being adjusted at this time.

While many players have been asking for an additional damage reduction effect to be added to Protect, we have no plans to add this since the higher defense will already cut damage much more than before.

Finally, as we have mentioned in the past for other topics, by making these spell adjustments, monsters that utilize this magic will also see defense enhancements as well, as is the norm when we make adjustments of this kind.

Be sure to hit up the test server and try out the enhanced defense that can be gained from these spells, feel the difference for yourself, and let us know your feedback :)

It's Saturday here!

Oh, an cautiously interested... barely!

Guess this means casting protect won't just be a placebo from now on.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Happy Friday everyone :)

I’d like to share some information that might give a bit more insight and explanation to the Protect/Minne effect adjustments.

This adjustment mainly took place to turn these spells and songs’ effects into a percentage enhancement as opposed to a static value, so that the benefits can be felt more and more at higher levels. Therefore, currently existing spells such as blue magic and rolls that enhanced defense as a percentage are not being adjusted at this time.

While many players have been asking for an additional damage reduction effect to be added to Protect, we have no plans to add this since the higher defense will already cut damage much more than before.

Finally, as we have mentioned in the past for other topics, by making these spell adjustments, monsters that utilize this magic will also see defense enhancements as well, as is the norm when we make adjustments of this kind.

Be sure to hit up the test server and try out the enhanced defense that can be gained from these spells, feel the difference for yourself, and let us know your feedback :)

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Thanks for the update Camate.

That said, Since Protects and Minnes are going to be % Based, are there any plans to Update Carbuncle's "Shinning Ruby" Effect in light of that?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Thanks for the update Camate.

That said, Since Protects and Minnes are going to be % Based, are there any plans to Update Carbuncle's "Shinning Ruby" Effect in light of that?

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I doubt it, Carb as it's already % based. 10% def, and 4% -MDT. It will become more useful though as there's no cap on it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I doubt it, Carb as it's already % based. 10% def, and 4% -MDT. It will become more useful though as there's no cap on it.

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Yah, I know they stack.

Thing is, Shinning Ruby was unique it that it was a percentile increase, where as protect was static. This kinda outweighed its relatively weak nature that was the Shell Effect (4% MDT), Since it had this uniqueness. Since this Uniqueness is lost, Wondering if they planned to buff it a tad to compete (even though it is stacking, It consumes a BP Ward pact, Which could be used more usefully most times) ... To be more specific, Look here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...t-this-new-cap

Though i suppose its an inadequate topic of conversation for the WHM Forums, and I'd like to mention I wasn't trying to bring it up as a means to fish for buff updates for Summoner in a WHM Thread, Was just curious if there were any plans to revisit other similarly defensive abilities, Mostly because Shinning Ruby's description does say "Grants user the Protect and Shell Effect" (Doesn't it?)

Either way, Its not too important!

"goblin cast protect? omg dispel dispel dis... wait... we're only level 12 and don't have that... run awayyyyyy!"
lol... kidding of course but I am curious how much more annoying this will make some mobs (like Carabosse) if you don't have dispel handy all the time...

Worried you can't whm+mnk things anymore? :p

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah, I know they stack.

Thing is, Shinning Ruby was unique it that it was a percentile increase, where as protect was static. This kinda outweighed its relatively weak nature that was the Shell Effect (4% MDT), Since it had this uniqueness. Since this Uniqueness is lost, Wondering if they planned to buff it a tad to compete (even though it is stacking, It consumes a BP Ward pact, Which could be used more usefully most times) ... To be more specific, Look here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...t-this-new-cap

Though i suppose its an inadequate topic of conversation for the WHM Forums, and I'd like to mention I wasn't trying to bring it up as a means to fish for buff updates for Summoner in a WHM Thread, Was just curious if there were any plans to revisit other similarly defensive abilities, Mostly because Shinning Ruby's description does say "Grants user the Protect and Shell Effect" (Doesn't it?)

Either way, Its not too important!

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Only issue is, you can guarantee if they upped SMN they'd do it so it didn't stack with Protect & Shell.

Eh... I messed with this a bit on the test server and the def boosts didn't seem % based. Unless the boost is based either on your base def without gear or doesn't change dynamically when you equip more DEF. I'll look at it again.

How much defense were you getting?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Eh... I messed with this a bit on the test server and the def boosts didn't seem % based. Unless the boost is based either on your base def without gear or doesn't change dynamically when you equip more DEF. I'll look at it again.

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Could be based on level as opposed to Defence itself.

So far, it seems to be a static +175 defence at 1/5 merits, adding 5 per merit. At least according to Arcon!

Did a quick double check. No difference between Tectra V on/from a lvl 99 and 75. There doesn't seem to be anything % based or scaling about it.

The new values are:

Level 99 WHM/RDM
Protect: 163 -> 178 (15 DEF, previously 10)
Protect II: 163 -> 203 (40 DEF, previously 25)
Protect III: 163 -> 238 (70 DEF, previously 40)
Protect IV: 163 -> 283 (120 DEF, previously 55)
Protect V: 163 -> 338 (175 DEF, previously 60)
Protectra V (1 merit): 163 -> 338 (175 DEF, previously 60)
Protectra V (2 merits): 163 -> 343 (180 DEF, previously 62)
Protectra V (3 merits): 163 -> 348 (185 DEF, previously 64)
Protectra V (4 merits): 163 -> 353 (190 DEF, previously 66)
Protectra V (5 merits): 163 -> 358 (195 DEF, previously 68)
Augmented Relic +2 feet add +5 def per level for a max of 220.

I copied/edited Slycers post instead of mine because his looks better. Neither one of us has the earring or ring to see how much those add.

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Originally Posted by Dantedmc

How much defense were you getting?

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T1: 15
T2: 40
T3: 75
T4: 120
T5: 175

It wasn't percentage based, and it didn't depend on level either, as Camate's post may have hinted at. Ring/earring still gave 2 per tier, and didn't stack, just like before. Augmented Cleric's Duckbills +2 give +5 per merit.

And while this isn't WHM related, the Minne songs are also not percentage based.

Arcon and I ran into each other on the test server and after testing some minne stuff decided to see how high we could get my PLDs DEF.

PLD/BLU
5/5 Tectra5 + Augmented feet
99 Gjallar Daru SVed Minne 2-5
Cocoon
Hydra Kofte

2389 def.

Edit: WE FORGOT GALLANT'S ROLL!! =(

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Edit: WE FORGOT GALLANT'S ROLL!! =(

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I don't have COR unlocked, so couldn't have done that, sadly. What would have worked, though, is Titan's Favor. Could get another ~100 Defense from that.

That's a lot of def.

Now test how much damage reduction this would give you against a level 99 mob compared to 800 def :p.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

That's a lot of def.

Now test how much damage reduction this would give you against a level 99 mob compared to 800 def :p.

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Might go from hitting you for 200 to about 198.

(Hahaa... I'm joking of course)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Might go from hitting you for 200 to about 198.

(Hahaa... I'm joking of course)

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And yet, it might just be true.

I believe mobs pdif bottoms out at 1.0 so it's entirely possible against an EM mob it would do absolutely nothing.

I believe the guys on bg showed that mobs ratio can go under 1.0, it's their min / max formula that is broken. Even at 0.5 ration mobs can still hit you for over 1.0 and won't ever hit you for 0 from defense. Any defense that brings you under 1.0 runs into such a diminishing return that it does nearly nothing.

Still with this update it might be worth meriting protectra V once, now that it's actually different from Protect IV.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I don't have COR unlocked, so couldn't have done that, sadly. What would have worked, though, is Titan's Favor. Could get another ~100 Defense from that.

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And Shining Ruby for another 238 ^^

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

And Shining Ruby for another 238 ^^

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If it's applied after everything else, yes, which I doubt though. Guess I can test it next time.

175 defense is pretty decent. If we take the old Ig-alima numbers they gave us (1059 attack), and give a player an arbitrary 400 defense without protect, current Protect V would put it at 460 defense, while new Protect V would give 575 defense.

Given a positive level correction of +1.0 (maybe 1.05, but 1.0 is good enough here), cRatio for current Protect V would be 3.302, while cRatio for new Protect V would be 2.842, for a 14% reduction in damage taken.

Use Berserk, and defense is reduced to 345 (current) or 431 (new), giving cRatios of 4.0 and 3.457, 13.6% reduction.

Remove the level correction component, and additional damage reduction is about 20%.

Only complaint I would have is that +5 defense per merit is pretty cheap, since meriting to 5/5 is only a 2% additional reduction in damage taken compared to 1/5. Make it +15 defense per merit (the equivalent of another Protect 1, and 6% damage reduction for taking it to 5/5) and it would be worthwhile to at least consider it.


Of course that's all based on the idea of the current flat increase, whereas Camate indicated it should actually be a percentage increase, so subject to change.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Only complaint I would have is that +5 defense per merit is pretty cheap, since meriting to 5/5 is only a 2% additional reduction in damage taken compared to 1/5. Make it +15 defense per merit (the equivalent of another Protect 1, and 6% damage reduction for taking it to 5/5) and it would be worthwhile to at least consider it.

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This.

Although these updates to Protect as a whole are great, it still doesn't get around the fact that it's just not worth meriting protectra V if you're a full-time /SCH, and definately not worth putting more than 1 merit into it and getting the augment done on relic +2 for a total of 55 extra def.... or is it?

Looking at Montenten's figures above, 5/5 with augment will be an additional 5.5% reduction in damage compared to 1/5 and no augment.

5.5% seems like enough for me to go 5/5 protectra V now, atleast until I actually see a need for a devotion. Though I may 4/5 Protectra V and 1/5 devotion just because. The difference between 1/5 Shellra V and 5/5 augmented is only around 5% too correct?

That's only on something with 1000 attack, it gets less as the monsters attack gets close to your defense.

Definitely worth 1/5 though.