[dev1102] Meteor had better be obtainable!

I wouldn't say clique-ish but def hard to find a shout for Provenance at least here on Asura. The one time i did happen to go was a rather pleasant run didn't get the dragon win but got 2/3 of the new KIs from the cat BCNMs

(the temp KIs and atmacites i should say still need the stone regen KI tho ; ; )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helel

Hope you're joking and I'm missing the sarcasm.

---

Considering my playtime is 11pm - 4am and I play with the Japanese mostly, did you miss the "in my experience"? No sarcasm here, I've seen more cliquish behavior from NA players than I have from Japanese players when it comes to these kind of events, even to the point they'll kick out people that helped them get their shit done for someone in their shell (that didn't even have progress done) just because it's a shell mate, this could be a server specific thing.

That's why you don't ignore what someone writes, but then again, since I can actually speak and understand Japanese that helps participating with them. So unless you were trying to say Americans are a lot more welcoming then I'm confused why you'd think it was sarcasm because in all my MMO experience and online gaming experience, I've yet to see how the JP are cliquish..unless you confuse the fact you probably refuse to learn Japanese to communicate with them as them being the ones at fault?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

I've yet to see how the JP are cliquish..unless you confuse the fact you probably refuse to learn Japanese to communicate with them as them being the ones at fault?

---

I can only base my judgements based on shouts, past experience, and a bit of a call based on how much of a language you actually need to learn to play.

Let us start with some basic observations about communication in the context of FFXI. First, the entire game uses roman letters for certain things, such as the three letter job codes. Second, certain players continue this with lettered slang which is standardized across servers and easy to understand (brb, SATA, VW, and to a lesser extent HV/NV for VW procs). Third, certain players will use auto-translate whenever the previous standards are not adequate. Fourth, roman lettering is not only standard amount the UI and 3/4 of the official languages the game supports, but only Japanese players can actually enter in Japanese characters. Last, it is far easier to plug in a phrase to an automatic translator to gain some context when it is in a character set you can actually type (roman letters are universally able to be typed for every player).

As above we see that players can speak in a way that even if they patch in the occasional word from their own language that is foreign to them, no matter what language they speak. Thus I can only assume that players unwilling to use these easy communication standards are doing so in a manner to be "cliquish" against people who don't speak their own language.

Based on shouts on my server, you can go to anywhere in Jeuno and listen to shouts and yells that have excessive usage of the three letter codes and auto-translate, the occasional English word will get in but for the most part the shouts are made to be as understandable as possible. Go to Aht Urghan where most of the shouts are Japanese and the most you might get is a 8/18 or a VW in the shout so you know the event is VW but that the people shouting don't care enough about getting people to come that they shout in an easy to understand manner. I've seen JP players come to NA shouts before where the JP didn't speak English and it was completely fine, because they were the first person to fill a particular slot (and not because the slot couldn't be filled any other way).

-

Yeah, blah, blah exceptions, you mileage may vary, and your server might suck and all that. But really, no player has to understand anything other then a few abbreviations commonly used by everyone in the game in order to participate, so saying that anyone should learn a new language is obtuse. I don't expect a NA player to learn Japanese and I most certainly don't expect a JP player to learn English; WAR WHM COR PLD mean what they mean and VW means what it means, there isn't really much to be learning. People doing shouts either try to be universally understandable or they don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Considering my playtime is 11pm - 4am and I play with the Japanese mostly, did you miss the "in my experience"? No sarcasm here, I've seen more cliquish behavior from NA players than I have from Japanese players when it comes to these kind of events, even to the point they'll kick out people that helped them get their shit done for someone in their shell (that didn't even have progress done) just because it's a shell mate, this could be a server specific thing.

That's why you don't ignore what someone writes, but then again, since I can actually speak and understand Japanese that helps participating with them. So unless you were trying to say Americans are a lot more welcoming then I'm confused why you'd think it was sarcasm because in all my MMO experience and online gaming experience, I've yet to see how the JP are cliquish..unless you confuse the fact you probably refuse to learn Japanese to communicate with them as them being the ones at fault?

---

I speak Japanese and party with them frequently. It's much more common for a NA party to let JP players in who don't speak English than it is for a NA player to be accepted to a JP party, regardless of language status. If you don't realize this, than you're living in a sheltered world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asymptotic

I speak Japanese and party with them frequently. It's much more common for a NA party to let JP players in who don't speak English than it is for a NA player to be accepted to a JP party, regardless of language status. If you don't realize this, than you're living in a sheltered world.

---

Except that most JP players speak a lot more English than most English players speak JP.

Average English speaking player knows 'hai', 'w' and 'arigatou'.
Average JP player knows most basic words, even if the spelling is all over the place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Except that most JP players speak a lot more English than most English players speak JP.

Average English speaking player knows 'hai', 'w' and 'arigatou'.
Average JP player knows most basic words, even if the spelling is all over the place.

---

Yet they refuse to use English 90% of time, unless they play out of JP prime time and need to join my shout.
I'm sorry but this is what I got from playing 6 years now. I ALWAYS use auto-translator when shouting or asking another party something, and this is the common practice for almost everyone except japanese players.
From most of them I either get response in full japanese or no reply at all. If I get a reply in japanese, I tell them I can't understand it very well (I do recognize words/kanji) and that's where the conversation usually ends.
No luck in trying with romaji too, even though that's the closest thing to japanese I can type.
Shouts from japanese players are ALWAYS in full japanese, including jobs (each have its own kanji or word like Monk モンク or 召 Summoner).

Basically, unless you can type using japanese character, most of the time you'll get completely ignored.

Still I get the occasional more welcoming player that makes an effort in communicating with me, or that invites me to his party so I can lot the stupid G10 item (THANK YOU) without even replying to my question. Or someone who actually use the AT to tell me something.

Does my server suck? Probabily.
The language barrier between "westerners" and japanese players is big. I just wish more people would try and make an effort, from both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asymptotic

I speak Japanese and party with them frequently. It's much more common for a NA party to let JP players in who don't speak English than it is for a NA player to be accepted to a JP party, regardless of language status. If you don't realize this, than you're living in a sheltered world.

---

From what I've seen, rather than correct you when you make mistakes, they'll just say "please let's talk in english" and go from there, and several I've run into talk about having translation programs or something. I don't know if it's due to them wanting to be polite or not liking me writing their language incorrectly. As a native spanish speaker, if someone makes a mistake I'll smile and correct them because if you don't get the mistakes corrected you're never gonna learn. At least to me, the Japanese players don't seem to be inclined towards that same courtesy. 0.o;

The majority of Japanese players are very xenophobic. This is a cultural thing. The reason they shout in all Japanese and rarely use auto translate is because they don't what to play with non Japanese players. They don't want to deal with the language issue for the most part, and for some its a superiority complex. Most people know that the Japanese players were not happy to have to share a server with us. NA players are much more open to inviting JPs and don't really care if they can't understand. Very low chance a JP player would invite you to their party most of the time they just ignore you if you send them a tell.

Occasionally you will have that JP who doesn't mind joining an English shout but thats because they want exp or VW loot or whatever, neither of which take much coordination.

I always thought it was kind of funny how English speaking players almost always use the auto translate when the chances are really slim that they will get a JP player to join their group.

I still think there should be a way for non-Japanese speaking players to type in Japanese characters (hiragana/katakana) to some extent. I am teaching myself Japanese and would like to be able to communicate more efficiently. They are able to type in roman alphabet as well as their own language; it should go both ways. How else are the language barriers going to be broken down? Personally, to me, the auto-translate is horribly inadequate and needs to be updated. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midorikaze

I still think there should be a way for non-Japanese speaking players to type in Japanese characters (hiragana/katakana) to some extent. I am teaching myself Japanese and would like to be able to communicate more efficiently. They are able to type in roman alphabet as well as their own language; it should go both ways. How else are the language barriers going to be broken down? Personally, to me, the auto-translate is horribly inadequate and needs to be updated. :/

---

SE didn't want to pay the licensing fee for western clients otherwise it would be possible.

Most JP, while being taught english and even use a few words of it in playing video games, are not FLUENT in English. They might know enough for a conversation, but if you're not confident in your ability, you don't use it for risk of offending the other person. I studied French, and I live in an area where a lof of french speaking people visit, but I never actually speak in french, even when the other person doesn't speak english.

Quote:

---

First, the entire game uses roman letters for certain things, such as the three letter job codes.

---

The JP client does not use those abbriviations. Though they are well understood, they're not used by the game on the JP client.

There can only be one meteor-lander!

It's really pretty ridiculous to release a spell that needs to be cast by 5-6 people to be useful, but make the scroll so rare that you've got to have friends in high places to ever round up that many people who actually have the spell to cast it.

JPs will by and large not invite NAs to do VW. Autotranslating weaknesses is too much; I remember the only reason I got into a particular Akvan alliance was because there was a 2nd BRD to handle all the procs. A friend of mine was invited (they must've been desperate for BLU) and I stuck some of the PT chat into google translate and they basically said "oh boy that's BLU is going to be trouble."

I'm completely on board with the notion that JPs very much prefer to deal only with other JPs. And I'm not even hating on it, because communication is a real issue.

Oh, we're talking about Meteor? Yeah, make it drop more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by detlef

JPs will by and large not invite NAs to do VW. Autotranslating weaknesses is too much; I remember the only reason I got into a particular Akvan alliance was because there was a 2nd BRD to handle all the procs. A friend of mine was invited (they must've been desperate for BLU) and I stuck some of the PT chat into google translate and they basically said "oh boy that's BLU is going to be trouble."

---

{ice}BLU5

you're right, that was absolutely horrendous to type. Clearly that's too much to ask of a Japanese bro.

It really depends. Some of them use auto translate, some will only say procs in kanji.

There are several problems with implementation here:
1) Most Black Mages will never obtain Meteor, given the current drop rate and source.
2) You need most Black Mages (essentially all the ones you bring to an event) to have Meteor in order for it to be useful.
3a) Most linkshells don't do content that would inspire them to bring enough Black Mages right now to make this spell superior to Thundaja.
3b) It is only useful in Legion.
4) There hasn't been a real reason to have a "good BLM" for the last year+, and most people have spent their time collecting finery for other jobs. Thus your best players are often better off on those other jobs, which means you would have to give meteor to worse players in order for it to ever see any use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The JP client does not use those abbriviations. Though they are well understood, they're not used by the game on the JP client.

---

It does in player search, since the command line uses roman letters (JP players still have to use /ma, etc). On equipment it uses one-character (usually kanji) abbreviations, such as mages having the kanji for red, white, black, or blue. When you use /sea and get the window full of results, the JP client still uses NIN, BRD, etc for player jobs and subjobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

So it seems that changes to both spirits, and wyverns have been put on hold because of Meteor.
If it turns out that Meteor is then only obtainable as a 0.0000001% drop from final VW chapter, I'm sure I won't be the only person feeling somewhat annoyed, and I hope that the dev team will realise that they've been wasting their time making sure that a spell that 6 people can cast will work properly, if it takes a month to see 6 people that can cast it that are even on the same server!

Maybe I'm just being pessamistic, but we can only go on past performances. :(

---

*cough* Arise *cough*

Probably the same availability imo

They damn well should have made it a quest. BLM talks to Shantotto of the past somewhere (not like SE cares for consistency anymore), she drops a meteor on you, you're left with a scar, you can now use meteor when you activate Manawell, Elemental Seal or during Manafont.

That would be much better because then it wouldn't be rare for the sake of rare. Sure it's iconic and everything, but it's not worth all of the logs you get in the process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

There are several problems with implementation here:
1) Most Black Mages will never obtain Meteor, given the current drop rate and source.
2) You need most Black Mages (essentially all the ones you bring to an event) to have Meteor in order for it to be useful.
3a) Most linkshells don't do content that would inspire them to bring enough Black Mages right now to make this spell superior to Thundaja.
3b) It is only useful in Legion.
4) There hasn't been a real reason to have a "good BLM" for the last year+, and most people have spent their time collecting finery for other jobs. Thus your best players are often better off on those other jobs, which means you would have to give meteor to worse players in order for it to ever see any use.

---

Don't really agree with #4. BLM remains a standard at most events, and I think your generalization about "most people" is because DD jobs are more popular as a whole. The difference between mediocre BLMs and good BLMs is quite noticeable at something like Provenance Watcher and Kalasutrax and other Naraka. I will leave out the obvious benefit in Legion since you addressed that in 3b (to which I mostly agree although I can think of a few other situations in which it would be useful).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

{ice}BLU5

you're right, that was absolutely horrendous to type. Clearly that's too much to ask of a Japanese bro.

---

I'm not really saying it's hard. But they don't do it unless they absolutely have to (see my example with the BLU).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraniku

*cough* Arise *cough*

Probably the same availability imo

---

But when 1 WHM in your LS gets Arise, it's useful.

Hey guess what guys, meteor isn't obtainable. :p

Meteor and Arise also drop in Legion according to SE.

Not that anyone is getting past wave 2 anytime soon but the carrot is on the stick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mahoro

Don't really agree with #4. BLM remains a standard at most events, and I think your generalization about "most people" is because DD jobs are more popular as a whole. The difference between mediocre BLMs and good BLMs is quite noticeable at something like Provenance Watcher and Kalasutrax and other Naraka. I will leave out the obvious benefit in Legion since you addressed that in 3b (to which I mostly agree although I can think of a few other situations in which it would be useful).

---

BLM may be standard but gear is completely irrelevant, which is Byrth's point. BLM is only useful for procs. If your BLM is doing "good" damage on kalasutrax and PW (relative to other jobs) then there is something seriously wrong with your alliance.

I always do good damage on Voidwatch NMs on BLM. We usually have 2-3 BLMs and assign them different spells, once we hit a HV trigger I'll chain-nuke Thundaja > Thunder V > Burst II > Firaja > Fire V and then go back to looking for triggers.

That's 20k damage in about 20 seconds, hardly irrelevant and there's nothing wrong with our alliances. There's nothing wrong with BLMs adding some extra damage.

I do the same, but the difference between doing 15k damage and 20k damage isn't worth the time it would take me to make 7 affinity staves. It was a different story when I used to solo things and having the best gear meant the difference between chain 3 and chain 6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helel

BLM may be standard but gear is completely irrelevant, which is Byrth's point. BLM is only useful for procs. If your BLM is doing "good" damage on kalasutrax and PW (relative to other jobs) then there is something seriously wrong with your alliance.

---

Mentioned Prov Watcher and Naraka for Stun. Appropriate staff, dark magic gear, etc. Didn't mention total dmg.

BLM can stun everything in VW with a NQ thunder staff, capped skill, and AF3+2.

lol, you don't even need AF3+2. I do BLM to Voidwatch on my V.cloak mule and all it costs me is a little damage.

The difference between a Black Mage that lotted the things that dropped from monsters he was killing anyway and a dedicated Black Mage is Magian Affinity Staves and +2 Relic. I don't know any dedicated Black Mages, but I can look at the gear and tell you the amount of effort it requires to obtain way exceeds its usefulness.

I guess it's just different circles. I know a few dedicated BLM's in my LS, and they are usually the ones I can count on more to proc/stun. These are also the ones that will get Meteor first in our shell because they mainlot the job. While total nuke damage in VW may not matter as much when the strategy for most monsters is just proc/zerg, I expect SE to add more content like Legion (perhaps revamped Ein/Limbus) that will reward well-geared BLMs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

SE didn't want to pay the licensing fee for western clients otherwise it would be possible.

---

This makes me sad, since the divide will continue to exist until something is done about it...I am sure the licensing is affordable with the $$$ SE is making off this game. (Then again, I don't know the cost either so who am I to judge^^) Also my NA client displays kanji and kana perfectly, so an IME should not be that difficult to add. And I have already heard the argument about us potentially abusing their language by getting this ability...Who is to say the opposite does not also happen? Where is the trust and equality, I wonder... :(

Wishful thinking, perhaps. But it would be nice...

Finally seen a scroll on the AH on Phoenix... and 2 in bazaars now on the server. Half way to a full party of BLMs!