[dev1102] So what is the Ultimate Spell for RDM?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

As I mentioned in your thread, I LOVED Renew and hope the devs implement it. That one spell would make my life a lot easier and melee gameplay a lot smoother.
That's the downside of the Final Fantasy IP, though. Same case as it is with enfeebles. Though at the least each job should have it's own version of certain spells, if only so that spellcasting is mechanically sound rather than something that favors one job over another.

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Honestly I believe RDM's native FC should be redone. We should be casting spells at 2~3x the speed, not 1.5~1.6. Give RDM a JT that makes FC 3x more effective at casting (but not recast). Would at least draw a distinction between RDM and SCH.

Yeah, when we have the highest FC by JT and other jobs are casting magic at around the same speed, it's just kind of insulting. That would be like SAM being outdone in Store TP or BLM not being the hardest nuker....

On Ultimate Spell, I would want a debuff, since that is what we are supposed to be the best at. If we could cast Impact II and it did everything Impact does but better and cheaper I would be satisfied. Make it work on everything. You could even make it stack with Impact I so that we can enjoy Convert and Spontaneity for Double Impact.

http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-conte...le_impact2.jpg

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Originally Posted by saevel

Honestly I believe RDM's native FC should be redone. We should be casting spells at 2~3x the speed, not 1.5~1.6. Give RDM a JT that makes FC 3x more effective at casting (but not recast). Would at least draw a distinction between RDM and SCH.

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There's still the issue of function, which I frankly don't know how to fix outside of what some may consider arbitrary adjustments for the sake of being different.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There's still the issue of function, which I frankly don't know how to fix outside of what some may consider arbitrary adjustments for the sake of being different.

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Unfortunately as long as FFXI retains its current magic system, then this won't really ever change. RDM was never invited for debuffs, even when they made a difference (XP vs IT). Plainly speaking, this game has too many jobs and not enough variety to make them all distinct. MMO's tend to be balanced around three types of class's / jobs, the defensive hate holding type (Tank), the offensive kill it now but with paper-thin army type (DD) and the keep us alive / make us stronger type (Support). The dev's short sightedness and refusal to admit when their wrong as lead to the complete destruction of the first type (Tank). Rampant AOE's make "tanking" worthless, what use is it holding the monsters hate on one person when everyone else within 15 feet will die anyway. The coupe de grace was the enmity system vastly favoring damage over anything else, so even the monster doesn't immediately kill everyone around the tank, the tank won't be holding hate and thus not tanking. So now we're down to 20 jobs fighting over two types of slots, (DD) and (Support) and since a hybrid like RDM isn't the best DD we're then shuffled into the support role. We're not very good at support, but support doesn't need to be very good to be useful. This is why there are those who want to see the return of "pink mage", a RDM who can support, even if at an inferior level, can still be made into something useful in super elite content.

SE needs to radically redo game mechanics to fix the class diversity issue. A short term fix for only RDM would be to make a set of powerful enfeebles, then we would actually have a specialty / function. It may not be the absolute most desired, but it would be something unique and helpful.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Unfortunately as long as FFXI retains its current magic system, then this won't really ever change. RDM was never invited for debuffs, even when they made a difference (XP vs IT).

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Well, debuffs work as a tertiary trait or part of a class, not as the main purpose of a class. The only real place where it sort of worked was everquest, but that was because of party and raid sizes. Secondly, stat stacking should have never been part of enfeebling. One because it plays into the mess created by gear swaps, secondly because it is such a minor facet that it should scale off one of the blanket stats for magic, or perhaps just scale with enfeebling skill (no MND or INT or any of that, and perhaps even no variances in potency short of enfeebling skill).

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The dev's short sightedness and refusal to admit when their wrong has lead to the complete destruction of the first type (Tank). Rampant AOE's make "tanking" worthless, what use is it holding the monsters hate on one person when everyone else within 15 feet will die anyway. The coupe de grace was the enmity system vastly favoring damage over anything else, so even the monster doesn't immediately kill everyone around the tank, the tank won't be holding hate and thus not tanking.

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The only reason damage has gotten so out of control is basically that complete avoidance has been allowed to run rampant instead of fixed when it got started. Yes, I'm once again pointing the finger to Utsusemi. If you want to keep things balanced, then yes the possibility of avoiding damage entirely leads to having to create mobs that deal a ton of damage in order to challenge and tax the healers as well as put survivability on the line.

Adding to this mess is the fact that enmity has a cap instead of constantly fluctuating. I don't know if the devs thought we would never hit the caps when they designed the basic enmity system (considering they never counted on people swapping gear mid-combat...), but that part of the game is in dire need of changes, along with role assignments for tanking. The latter would be difficult to implement, but goes hand-in-hand with what tanking is all about.

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So now we're down to 20 jobs fighting over two types of slots, (DD) and (Support) and since a hybrid like RDM isn't the best DD we're then shuffled into the support role. We're not very good at support, but support doesn't need to be very good to be useful. This is why there are those who want to see the return of "pink mage", a RDM who can support, even if at an inferior level, can still be made into something useful in super elite content.

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I can admit that at the time the RDM revamp took place, the shangrilla of "hybrids can choose their role if we give them mechanics for each role" had not been discovered. The changes were made back when the ideology was pretty much "just give them some heals and something parties will want, so that they'll be forced to invite the class, so we can continue playing Magic The Gathering instead of spending time/resources fixing said class".

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SE needs to radically redo game mechanics to fix the class diversity issue.

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I think the core of the problem is what jobs gain due to the subjob system. Even if you individually can fix each job, you still have that balancing nightmare looming over you.

What's really sad is that these sort of problems are easier to pinpoint if you play one of the "lesser" jobs. THF and SMN also suffer from several problems because of how basic class design was handled in this game. RDM just happens to be part of that club as well.

I totally agree

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What's really sad is that these sort of problems are easier to pinpoint if you play one of the "lesser" jobs. THF and SMN also suffer from several problems because of how basic class design was handled in this game. RDM just happens to be part of that club as well.

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RDM has the unfortunate position of being the only job that can be subbed while retaining almost 100% of it's capabilities AND have unique features given to other jobs (Phalanx, Addle) or being rendered impotent by game design (merits, enfeebling).
Other jobs have run into similar issues, but SE stepped up to ensure uniqueness for the job by limiting subjob or making a job excel at something.

Just happens to be part of the club? RDM is the club president!

RDM could have had potential as a job that reduces damage taken by the party. If SE had let WHM focus on healing instead of giving them things like AoE Bar spells and Protectra/Shellra and Sancrocity. RDM should have been specialized to reduce damage taken by the party with Protectra/Shellra/Phalanxga/Phalanxga II/Bar spellra/Regens/Stoneskins/Blinkga etc. BRD and COR could have focused on being offensive support and WHM could be healing support; RDM should have been defensive support, instead they gave both Healing and Defensive to WHM and left RDM with meh enfeebling. If theyre gonna give us enfeebing at least give us tier 3 and tier 4 of every enfeeble.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

RDM has the unfortunate position of being the only job that can be subbed while retaining almost 100% of it's capabilities AND have unique features given to other jobs (Phalanx, Addle) or being rendered impotent by game design (merits, enfeebling).

Other jobs have run into similar issues, but SE stepped up to ensure uniqueness for the job by limiting subjob or making a job excel at something.

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The reason I don't bark up the uniqueness tree is because RDM at the core is supposed to be a hybrid. Again, this goes to the whole bit about it being a job that borrows things and uses them in their own way. The best example I can think of is that a BLM would use Fire to outright burn something down to ashes. A RDM may end up using Fire to inflict just enough pain over a period of time to hinder their enemy in some way. It's the same spell, but used differently to meet each job's needs. BLM as the ranged nuker, RDM as the melee mage. That is where the differentiation should come in. Enfeebling, as I mentioned in my previous post, is a small facet that has been thrusted to the front in a desperate attempt to take a shortcut to fixing the job and giving it a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

RDM could have had potential as a job that reduces damage taken by the party. If SE had let WHM focus on healing instead of giving them things like AoE Bar spells and Protectra/Shellra and Sancrocity.

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Sorry, but that harms WHM by taking away things that make sense for a healer/support (which is what WHM is) and harms RDM by burdening it with something that has absolutely nothing to do with Red Magery or magic fencing in the case of the melee camp. That does little for us other than take us back to where we were at lv75, which I certainly don't want.

Not to mention with hybrids you can no longer afford to shove a singular role down the player's throat and expect them to like it. Hybrids are and have always been about choices. Developers have just been lazier in the past because they knew some players would be desperate enough to take the bad end of the deal if it meant an easier time finding a group and "importance" in endgame. And that's not only here, but in several of the MMOs that came out around the time FFXI did. Going back to something I said long ago, RDM's woes are not unique to this game.

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Not to mention with hybrids you can no longer afford to shove a singular role down the player's throat and expect them to like it. Hybrids are and have always been about choices.

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Thank you for bringing that up.

Which I have personally started playing RDM like a Hybrid job as of lately. I am very lucky to have a linkshell that allows me to make my own choices during events as long as it does not hinder the group (better yet, as long as it contributes positively). The majority of the time I am RDM during events is Voidwatch.

I am usually in charge of keeping the "ranged" party alive (BLMs, RNG, NIN, BLUs) while trying to proc weaknesses with magic. Counting on the enemy and the skill of the other players, I will melee on RDM (with a melee set). Though, my first priority is curing and magic procing. Melee is something I get to do because the linkshell I am in is open to the idea.

The group does benefit from me with my weapon drawn. Usually in the form of Sword and Dagger procs. I do not have a top-tier Melee set, but basic enough (full gear haste, enough accuracy and attack to make some difference, WS gear, etc) to make a minor impact.

I understand that most people are not open to the idea of a person who wants to play a RDM as a hybrid more than a PNK or someone's mule just to have RDM merit spell procs. I have ran into that problem my whole FFXI career. It is just finding the right people who will allow you to play RDM as a RDM.

And for the topic of an ultimate spell for RDM: I wouldn't mind an enfeeble (like something that weakens TP moves or punishes a mob for using a TP move). I just do not want it to be tied to any job abilities.

I just can't believe SE removed or reduced the effectiveness of the following abilities and spells when subbed(or not subbed in some cases):
Warcry
Hasso
Sneak Attack
Trick Attack
Hide
Soul Eater
Sublimation
Ranged Weapon Skills
High Jump
Bard Songs
Ancient/Warding/Holy/Arcane Circle
Phantom Rolls
Waltzes
Steps
Zanshin
Meditate
Utsusemi Ni
Call Beast
Cal Wyvern
Afflatus: Misery/Solace
Innin/Yonnin
Velocity Shot
And countless other abilities and spells


By subbing RDM nothing is reduced or removed. Refresh is still maximum potency and duration. Convert is still full strength. Enhancing spells are still as potent as they would be for the level and Fast Cast is untouched.

Maybe a spell a bit like Berserk from FF (9?) that boosts the attack speed and power of a mob, but prevents them from using abilities.
Or vice-versa, a spell that enables a mob to only use TP moves, but can't melee in between them. The latter would likely have to give them some regain I guess, or allow them to TP on the timer of a 999 delay weapon perhaps? Maybe less than that, that's ~16.5 seconds I think.

Im not really sure if a single ultimate spell could really encapsulate rdm w/o utterly breaking the game...i think id rather see a set of spells that together would be our ultimate. of course, id also like to see SE increase the group 2 merit cap and rework rdm group 1 merits while they're at it...elemental accuracy...wow...

maybe a set of offensive and defensive auras (sphere effects but you get it too) 3-5 each, maybe...you could have 1 of each up at a time...like a regain (i can dream, cant i) to boost the pt (also nice in solo) and say... a plauge, or zombie, or just general stat down aura (maybe a new dot?) that affects the target... not only would they get rdm to the front line, it would buff the pt and/or debuff the target, and the mechanic is already there. so not a horrid amount of work for the devs either

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Refresh is still maximum potency and duration.

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Not a bad thing. I like that the new standard for non-RDM mage jobs is "bring your own damn refresh".

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Convert is still full strength.

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Not a bad thing either. It means jobs subbing it have some semblance of MP longevity. Less on our plate, so we win on this one too.

I kinda know what you're getting at, but you're trying to make the variances in potency universal instead of looking at it case by case.

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Fast Cast is untouched.

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I can sort of agree with you on this, though I agree with Saev that Fast Cast should be stronger on RDM. I feel that Fast Cast could be left as is and add a trait on RDM at lv55 or so to make if more potent when casting spells without affecting recast timers any further, as per Saev's suggestion.

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of course, id also like to see SE increase the group 2 merit cap and rework rdm group 1 merits while they're at it...elemental accuracy...wow...

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I agree with this. Group 1 merits need to be reworked, and I'd take that a step further and turn the group 2 merit spells into scrolls and add in something else for group 2.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I agree with this. Group 1 merits need to be reworked, and I'd take that a step further and turn the group 2 merit spells into scrolls and add in something else for group 2.

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id agree with them being scrolls if and ONLY if the scroll versions were equal to the potency of they're 5/5 merit version.
make sure you stipulate that, cuz i have no love for the devs in terms of how they screw over jobs so easily...and my cynicism tells me that they would make the scrolls the power of 1/5 merits...and do it in a heart beat

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Originally Posted by Tassidaru

id agree with them being scrolls if and ONLY if the scroll versions were equal to the potency of they're 5/5 merit version.
make sure you stipulate that, cuz i have no love for the devs in terms of how they screw over jobs so easily...and my cynicism tells me that they would make the scrolls the power of 1/5 merits...and do it in a heart beat

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Just like pro/shell 5

Fast Cast needs reworked for RDM because of the way AF3 sets work, look at BLM, you have -12% cast on your head piece if +2, use this with a lv99 trial staff of an element and you have -26%, use with the neck that lowers it by yet another 3% and you have -29% with Fast Cast of /RDM you cast much faster than RDM will, I know a BLM who casts at about 18-20% which is faster than my RDM can using similar gear. I may not be meant to be a nuker better than BLM but the fact they can use their much more potent spells much faster than me is wrong, RDM has Fast Cast because it is meant to have the advantage of speed to it as well to make up for the lack of potency I would think, and as such I should be casting at least as fast as a well geared BLM, not slower.

As for Convert & Refresh not being lowered in potency its right, they aren't, I'm happy in a way my RDM need not cast refresh on all the mages in the party/alliance yet it also rids of some of the unique points of RDM which most jobs have nerfed unique points on them as a sub, also convert helps MP and gives much larger supplies which I would not change except perhaps making it to where half of your hp goes into MP, which would give you MP back still in a large amount wouldn't be so massive. Though it may lessen the effect of the sub-job itself would make it more balanced.

As for a RDM super-spell I think Amnesia would work well, stop the mob from using TP attacks for a short time with a high rate of resist build as to not allow locking its TP attacks all together, also duration would not be long, perhaps 15 seconds or so, enough to be noticed but not to make the enemy defenseless. Obviously NMs would resist it more often but not to the extent it shouldn't be used, it should have a high rate of landing on anything with the first cast, after that NMs build resist faster than other mobs would. For instance I can use it on high level worms in Gustav Tunnel and land 2-3 times if I so choose before it would be to resisted to be worth trying, where as in VW I would cast 1 time, and from there on the chances of it landing would be spotty at best. Amnesia is one of the most potent enfeebles against players (I would say the most next to silence which we already get, and muddle which has no use how it is against anything other than players) yet we have never had access to it, the only way I know of even for a player to inflict it is through WAR using the Great-axe with it as an additional effect. So I think it is fitting for RDM to finally receive one of the most potent enfeeblings in the game, and be able to restrict not only the TP gain of an enemy (which some jobs have already, RDM should have something to itself as a ultimate spell, not something other jobs have) but to be able to prevent it over a short period of time!

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

As for Convert & Refresh not being lowered in potency its right, they aren't, I'm happy in a way my RDM need not cast refresh on all the mages in the party/alliance yet it also rids of some of the unique points of RDM which most jobs have nerfed unique points on them as a sub, also convert helps MP and gives much larger supplies which I would not change except perhaps making it to where half of your hp goes into MP, which would give you MP back still in a large amount wouldn't be so massive. Though it may lessen the effect of the sub-job itself would make it more balanced.

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Again, MP longevity is not a bad thing. Refresh should never, ever be a "unique" aspect/point/trait of RDM. Convert is fine as is. It keeps complications and things that shouldn't have anything to do with us far away, and that's fine by me.

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Obviously NMs would resist it more often but not to the extent it shouldn't be used, it should have a high rate of landing on anything with the first cast, after that NMs build resist faster than other mobs would. For instance I can use it on high level worms in Gustav Tunnel and land 2-3 times if I so choose before it would be to resisted to be worth trying, where as in VW I would cast 1 time, and from there on the chances of it landing would be spotty at best. Amnesia is one of the most potent enfeebles against players (I would say the most next to silence which we already get, and muddle which has no use how it is against anything other than players) yet we have never had access to it, the only way I know of even for a player to inflict it is through WAR using the Great-axe with it as an additional effect. So I think it is fitting for RDM to finally receive one of the most potent enfeeblings in the game, and be able to restrict not only the TP gain of an enemy (which some jobs have already, RDM should have something to itself as a ultimate spell, not something other jobs have) but to be able to prevent it over a short period of time!

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Absolutes never work well for enfeebles. That's largely the reason why enfeebling is so useless in the more recent events. You can't make something not cast or use TP moves and expect it to be balanced. Now, if you gave me something that reduced damage from TP moves by 15-25%, then we might be on to something. Weakeningn a mob to the point their TP moves are weaker would be a good direction, is not an absolute and allows us to help the group without becoming a buff-whore.

That being said, I'd still prefer Red Trance over any other option.

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't. We have the same enfeebles that BLM & WHM have if both in the same party which they obviously should be, other than our merit spells which don't always make it enough to throw a RDM in your party just because you want the slightly better para/slow/blind II. Perhaps our traits should make a larger impact over the 50-99 levels so that we have a noticeable difference from those subbing RDM, as I stated I do not think a BLM should cast faster than my RDM, unless I'm completely ignoring fast cast & -cast time, gear. As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part. Again might be unbalancing to think of it doing something like that because it would make some TPs by the mobs basically useless, but it is simply an idea because sometimes you don't care all to much about the damage you receive from the TP, thats the least of your worries next to doom, amnesia, weakness, muddle, death, and so on. But I think in the end RDM needs a way to effect TP more than anything because we have everything else for the most part. We can stop attacks, lower accuracy, slow them down, lower evasion, stop use of or lessen the effect of spells, but still nothing we can do about TPs. About our greatest hope in the case the enemy uses a TP attack, is that we have stun. We already stop mobs being able to hit us with normal attacks, and eliminate magic as a problem, all we need now is TP/additional effects and we will be set to enfeeble mobs so much so that (provided we land the spell) the enemy will have little to no ability to win in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't.

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Which was a flaw in design and caused grief on both ends, the Red Mage for wanting his job to be meaningful and instead being shackled to Refresh-bot, and the other casters who for some reason trhe devs believed should not be self-sufficient with MP. If anything, I wish these "fixes" by making Refresh subbable had been made available sooner to the other mage jobs.

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As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

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Which is fine because it supports that theme of melee mage that I keep harping on about. Remember that we're still borrowing things from the other jobs.

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And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

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You also forget the fact that a good number of mobs, in abyssea and post-abyssea are overly reliant on TP moves. This means Amnesia would NEVER work on them because you're effectively shutting the mob down entirely.

In all honesty, Amnesia should have never been implemented the way it has been. I know the devs were looking for a way to piss off melee, to inconvenience the eventual Dancer job,and to make imps threatening foes, but other things could have been done instead of something that entirely prevents TP moves and Job Abilities.

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In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part.

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Could be balanced as a case by case enfeeble, or just put in a blanket rule and have it reduce damage from TP moves, reduce duration of additional effects, and so on so that the spell's purpose is to lower the effectiveness of mob TP moves by a percentage. It'd fall under spells you use to help the group mitigate damage. If you want to tack the enfeebler thing to RDM, that'd be one nice way to help drive that point home.

Yep, and as for enemys in abyssea and post-abyssea who are overly reliant on TP moves, some (such as Ironclads) only USE TP moves, which would completly lock the enemy, then again thats what blue procing did was cause Amnesia. But now that you mention it I do agree it would be way to effective against certain enemys seeing as it would lock their ability to even act at all.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Yep, and as for enemys in abyssea and post-abyssea who are overly reliant on TP moves, some (such as Ironclads) only USE TP moves, which would completly lock the enemy, then again thats what blue procing did was cause Amnesia. But now that you mention it I do agree it would be way to effective against certain enemys seeing as it would lock their ability to even act at all.

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Ironclad regular attacks are 0TP moves, which are not affected by Amnesia. So it WOULD block those awesome rocket attacks, but not the 'regular' sweep attacks.

Except Blue Stagger prevents TP moves, and an Ironclad will cease moving during Blue stagger.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Except Blue Stagger prevents TP moves, and an Ironclad will cease moving during Blue stagger.

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That probably has more to do with the Ironclad's response to stagger then Amnesia in general. Automatons used to have similar problems with Amnesia preventing ranged attacks, until SE fixed it. So a few monster types would require the same fix if RDM gets Amnesia, although it probably would end up as a blanket immunity for 99.99% of the mobs anyway.

Some kind of enemy TP gain reduction would sound more promising though, might even bring back skillchaining if it's actually good enough.

Shinryu has the exact same issue. It isn't limited to Ironclads. Monsters with TP move attacks cannot attack if amnesia'd.

Would love a debuff that lowers magic defense or magic evasion. ._.

I would still go with limiting the damage from a TP attack rather than lowering TP gain of the mob or something of that extent, simply for the reason we have that kind of spell on NIN already, and if it would be an ultimate spell for RDM it should be of RDMs own, not a copy & paste effect, kinda like I see Migawari for NIN, Meteor for BLM, Arise for WHM, Embrava/Kaustra for SCH, no other job gets these effects like they do, and none should, if RDM gets a spell with similar or the same effects as another jobs, what do we really have to show even?

When you need a zerg you call in the SCH for Embrava, not because they can use regen & haste(given they are /RDM or WHM) but for Embrava, that spell with its massive 5TP 25-30ish%Haste & about 60Regen when used by someone with capped skill, thats why you call them in, just like SMN with Alex, RDM as it stands is losing its use, if you look at endgame(VW/Abyssea) we cant proc as well as other jobs, we cant proc with only our specific spells because most wont land, and we have no job ability that only we can use to proc the mob.

We are left with no real reason to invite, one reason, we arnt a "DD" thus we cant fight, we cant heal like a WHM or a SCH can, and we cant nuke like a BLM or SCH can, we have shorter spell lists in both fields, we even go so far as to have Divine & Dark magic skill of which we can not use other than Dark on Bio & Divine WAS for Dia at a time. When we have things we cant use in most cases, and we have nothing to us that is truly unique we lose any reason to be used for anything relevant. We need a spell that really gives RDM a reason to exist in the game now, because as it is now, we have no place, we can solo, we can duo/trio, and we can do things outside of anything endgame, but when it comes to endgame we are left out, which is wrong. Jack-of-all-trades or not.

We should have a reason to play RDM still, a well thought out, working spell, that is unique to RDM yet not overpowered seems nearly impossible to me. We can effect everything on the mobs already(if it sticks that is) and yet, what good does it do us when other jobs get that power. We cant use Enhancing or DoT as our super powerful thing that people bring us for, Embrava & Kaustra fill those wonderfully.

RDM has been left behind I think, and honestly I'm out of ideas on what we can add to bring us back, we are now for soloing, and doing some things in partys we can do them in, for the most part our job/role is dying/dead, and especially with the new VW, which has no need for merit spells/JAs for procs? We just lost the one thing RDM had, its special enfeebling, without that I'm sure RDM will be turned away at every request to join a party outside of friends & ls mates who know them to take them with, otherwise us RDMs are doomed I'm afraid.

Holy wall of text Batman.

lol I was tired, when Im tired, I type alot @_@;

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

When you need a zerg you call in the SCH for Embrava, not because they can use regen & haste(given they are /RDM or WHM) but for Embrava, that spell with its massive 5TP 25-30ish%Haste & about 60Regen when used by someone with capped skill, thats why you call them in, just like SMN with Alex

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What you don't seem to realize is that this is VERY bad design. It's like the stupidity with Refresh and Bards, Corsairs and RDMs but on a bigger scale.

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We are left with no real reason to invite, one reason, we arnt a "DD" thus we cant fight, we cant heal like a WHM or a SCH can, and we cant nuke like a BLM or SCH can, we have shorter spell lists in both fields, we even go so far as to have Divine & Dark magic skill of which we can not use other than Dark on Bio & Divine WAS for Dia at a time. When we have things we cant use in most cases, and we have nothing to us that is truly unique we lose any reason to be used for anything relevant. We need a spell that really gives RDM a reason to exist in the game now, because as it is now, we have no place, we can solo, we can duo/trio, and we can do things outside of anything endgame, but when it comes to endgame we are left out, which is wrong. Jack-of-all-trades or not.

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What you're pointing to is not the need of a spell, but more to the fact that at the core RDM is borked. Which only reinforces my desire to see that and the myriad of problems the job has fixed, NOT to have a spell to hide the problems under.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What you don't seem to realize is that this is VERY bad design. It's like the stupidity with Refresh and Bards, Corsairs and RDMs but on a bigger scale.
What you're pointing to is not the need of a spell, but more to the fact that at the core RDM is borked. Which only reinforces my desire to see that and the myriad of problems the job has fixed, NOT to have a spell to hide the problems under.

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I know 1 spell isn't going to fix RDM, I'm saying it would be nice to see something in the direction of making RDM more useful & help fix it, I don't expect SE to come to us with an update saying they are going to fix 90% of the problems we have with RDM. I'm simply saying that a single spell is possible as a first step to getting us back up & on our feet rather than where we are now. And I'm not saying that I want a spell that simply hides our flawed job I'm saying I want to have a spell that should show us that were not forgotten, were not just being left behind, and that SE actually gives a damn about RDM still.

So far, other than melee gear we can actually use on RDM (ya know, if people let us) we don't seem to get anything recently. Gravity II was about my biggest disappointment in RDM, because at our final moment when we should be our best... we got nothing, which I felt the same honestly after beating the Taru for the final limit break. I won, and my reward was 4 levels, normally I would get a few new cool spells, something to stand out, being the final limit break, I would expect something grand and powerful, and~ I got to lower a mobs evasion. Grand was supposed to be like Impact, something that seems very much like what a RDMs final spell should have been, it does damage, it lowers stats, it hurts the mob both inside & out, thats on a piece of gear every mage has basically, while my RDM gets its awesome exclusive, Gravity II.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

which I felt the same honestly after beating the Taru for the final limit break. I won, and my reward was 5 levels

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Due to budget cuts, only 4 of those levels were actually awarded... the crisis even hits us beyond the shattering stars...

OK point taken I messed up on that, still point being that I got levels and nothing for it which annoyed me, I said nothing hoping we would get something epic soon, yet we have yet to get anything of the sort, which is what this thread was meant to talk about : / I still hope at some point SE will give us something for RDM, they took some time to get us meteor, maybe RDMs is farther down the list, who knows. Either way this was meant to talk of that epic spell that would be great for RDM, like meteor, instead we have become sidetracked saying that a spell will not fix RDM and things like this that are obvious.

Our best spell was Bind.. back in the days... nothing really matters now...

We should get an Amnesia-based spell as an Enfeebling version of Stun.... that'd be a nice touch, even if it lasts only 5-10 seconds, it could be an amazing tool.

OR just Stun...

or Embrava. I don't really see why SCH should get both Embrava and Klaustra. But then again they aren't RDM, so I guess it makes sense.

I'd rather have a light-element stun equivalent. This way, you can still use Stun and "Wait" (or insert another name here).