Not quite, I just use only what's necessary and SCH inside Abyssea is a gimp. I suppose it's good if you go as a group 6+ but who does that in Abyssea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerich
PS. RDM can one shot with Tier IV's easily in Abyssea.... /rolleyes in Abyssea NIN probably could.
New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.
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03-13-2012, 08:52 AMDaniel_Hatcher
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03-13-2012, 09:01 AMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
I'm assuming she's (it) is talking about XP PTs due to the one shot references. Not even Ukon WAR's "one-shot" Aby NMs, they just have too much HP outside of brews. Aby is 100% about procs not damage, anyone can do damage, not everyone has access to the procs necessary. The objective is to get as few players in a group as possible, even if it means bringing your own mules, so that you have maximum amount of personal loot. RDM could do 50K WS's without a brew, and it still wouldn't be desired in an aby PT due to it's lack of procs.Quote:
I've never seen a useful RDM in an aby pt
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03-13-2012, 09:19 AMSpankWustler
Pretty much every job that doesn't have a number of unique procs or a huge number of procs is equally useful/useless in Abyssea. Of the jobs that aren't useful there now, no change to actual effectiveness will ever make any of them useful there. It is what it is.
For some reason, I imagine the element of "hobo" was originally involved in every job while the Development Bros were working on it at a conceptual level. It just feels right to me given some of the stuff they've said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
"This is Red Mage, who inhales paint fumes to briefly hallucinate that it is a demi-god who can cripple foes with enfeebling magic. Red Mages take advantage of White Magic and Black Magic to do what is needed, much as they take advantage of both white and black blankets to ward off frostbite."
Should the situation call for it, the Red Mage can even wield a sword skillfully. Far more often, they find themselves wielding a discarded two-by-four to thrash the stray dog who wants to eat their swollen, diabetic toes."
"This is Warrior, who wields many weapons including a broken bottle of Buckfast Tonic Wine. They can deal physical damage in almost any situation, but can never come to terms with the loss of their spouse and child in the fire that destroyed their home-office."
"This is White Mage, he is obviously racist but you will give him five dollars out of extreme pity. Also, something about healing magic." -
03-13-2012, 04:07 PMDuelleThe only thing that was hard about leveling RDM pre-abyssea was the chance of burnout from heal/refresh/haste spam. Other than that, I clearly remember everyone who played the job used to have to go /anon. Some embraced the quick and easy invites, while the melee camp tried to present our argument but were told to STFU by the bandwagonners that loved their easy ride to 75 and merit parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
So we agree the job is in dire need of fixes. At last we have found common ground. That aside, Abyssea's proc system was clearly not designed with jobs like RDM in mind, or under the illusion that you'd bring as many people as possible to an event so that the difference in performance is less noticeable.Quote:
Fast forwards 24 levels. My RDM is level 91 and I have leveled jobs from 50 to 99 before bringing it to an xp party. Why? Because even if I got it to 99, I wouldn't have a use for it. I don't need a mediocre melee to farm zone drops with anymore. I have Dancer. I don't need any of RDM's party advantages (if they exist). My mule has WHM for lowman and no one would ever ask me to go RDM to a real event because it just isn't very useful.
Hurling insults won't stop Saev or myself or others from voicing their opinions. I'd call it "magic fencer" or "sword and spell-wielding swashbuckler", anyway.Quote:
You want to be some kind of magey-meleey sword-swinging pimphat-wearing hobo that incorporates all of SE's poorly formed/translated ideas from the last 10 years, even though several of them have been assigned to since-created jobs or poorly implemented already?
As I see it, the playerbase needed to be weaned off of using RDM the way they were at 75. Yes, this means that while some were moping over their loss of auto-invites for events, it gave me hope in that maybe, just maybe there is something in store for our job once the dust settles. That's why I wasn't frothing at the mouth when Temper was self-cast. Same with the Gain line (really, the only thing they got wrong was making it start at lv80 instead of having it start at around lv55).
Either that or they decided to leave the mess as is and hoped people who wanted to support or nuke or melee jumped to other jobs and just forgot about RDM. -
03-13-2012, 04:44 PMSpankWustlerThere's an issue with the spells either way, honestly. If the current potency is "correct" than it's awful that those spells are self-cast only. If being self-cast only is "correct" than the current potency is awfully lacking. Both temper and the Gain- line are comparable in potency to multiple target abilities possessed by other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I can see an argument for Temper's moderate potency since it stacks with similar abilities, but it the job being affected also needs to be taken into account. Temper, the self-only spell, could be 30% Double Attack and 10% Triple Attack and 3% Quadruple Attack and it would not lead to Red Mage breaking the game.
Whatever the Development Bros are actually going for, I am certain that they're running around naked rather than getting there.
One thing that I do think has moved in a very positive direction is this: being a support job, any support job regardless of quality in any and every activity, is far from the golden ticket that it was in earlier and middle years of Final Fantasy XI. -
03-13-2012, 06:12 PMByrthSee, here's the problem. SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch. Endgame events (like Voidwatch, Walk of Echoes, or Legion) are not designed so healers/support players can responsibly be in AoE range. Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.
The changes I would actually like to see:
1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.
2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.
This is what I proposed in the second post of this thread:
"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."
This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again." -
03-13-2012, 07:32 PMDuelleFollowing the rules other melee follow is not a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
I wouldn't ask for something like that, either. En-anything is not enough. You'd have to bring in other changes to make a difference. Gear, job abilities, changes to profficiencies, weapon skill access, and more.Quote:
Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.
Taking us back to square one. If that's the only available role for RDM, no thanks.Quote:
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
Simple and brief would have worked in 2004, before the first (terrible) overhaul of the job. It might have even worked in the transition to TAU, as a way of saying "sorry we messed things up and urinated on the guys that wanted 魔法剣士/Magic Fencer RDM". Alas, the opportunities were had but were not acted upon. I am well aware that they'd have to clean up a mess that has been left alone for close to a decade, but I see nothing wrong with that.Quote:
If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.
And here's what I want them to pass on to the developers: "There's two distinct groups of players who play Red Mage. Some want to support, others want to be in the frontlines. We should make changes so that both sides can be happy and enjoy their favorite aspects of the job in group play and events".Quote:
This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."
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03-13-2012, 07:56 PMsaevel
Byrth,
To answer your questions.
Define this. You can not state such a position with such an ambiguous supporting point. Anything that effects RDM or DNC will effect SAM, WAR, DRG, DRK, PLD, MNK, NIN, THF, BLU the same way to the same extend whether it be paralyze, petrification or silence. RDM is not inherently more susceptible to negative status effects, if anything the opposite is true as I can give myself 150 ME to one element and whatever ME / resist to one status-ailment.Quote:
Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.
You also can not assume the RDM is the healer in the above as being the main healer immediately excludes you from being within aoe range, main heal duties do not mesh with hitting things with sharp pointy things nor do they mesh with blowing things up.
This is false. SE refused to give out Cure V to prevent RDM and SCH from becoming main healers. They actually told us this after people kept asking for it. It has taken them over a year, from the first time we asked, to finally get around to helping RDM and SCH in healing. The answer is a change to the way the cure formula works such that healing magic skill becomes more effective then MND at increasing cure power. This seems (its still on test server) to have increased Cure IV by 30~40%. It still less then Cure V and creates an astronomical amount of hate if spammed, but it is sufficient to allow a RDM and SCH to support heal. WHM's can cast both Cure IV and Cure V, RDM's and SCH's only have one Cure IV and a much smaller Cure III. RDM will not be able to main heal a melee party, they take too much aoe damage, SCH might with smart use of their stratagems and Regen V buff. What RDM will be able to do is support heal by quickly tossing Cure IV's around on people who hit low HP. I've done this at 75, it works as advertised. Being engaged on a target does not disable Cure, you can test this out if you doubt. Being engaged does not disable macro swapping, it doesn't disable enfeebling spells either. Being within melee range and main healing are exclusive due to the amount of casting required coupled with the amount of attention needed towards people's HP bars and status effects, not due to some hidden quirk with RDM's spell list and equipment.Quote:
SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch.
You and I both know it wouldn't. VWNM is about procing then slaughtering, you wouldn't put a RDM into a melee party as that would be a waste of a COR or BRD slot. Instead you'd put them the same place their put now, in the BLM party helping the BLM's hit procs. I've been invited many times to VWNM as a RDM/SCH with two BLMs, my assigned procs are typically Tier II - IV + Helix's along with the enfeebling procs. This allows the BLMs to split AM's and GA / JA between the two of them resulting in much faster magic proc times. The only counter to this argument is that putting a third BLM would have the same effect, which is correct. You'd be sacrificing the RDM specific procs but those are so small and rarely show up. Ultimately both do the exact same job with RDM having a slight advantage with the miniscule procs.Quote:
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
I've said it before, your not getting Temper in it's current form ever. It originally was 5% static, then we asked enough and they decided to make it scale with enhancing magic. SE is not going to let us put that much DA on someone without some sort of drawback, both COR and BRD can only put two buffs per person. If they allow it to be single targeted they would nerf the crap out of it. I'm willing to bet gil on the above statement, and I don't gamble. That is how sure I am of it.
I've said on numerous occasions that SE should never of created the self-cast versions of Gain / Bar spells and instead just gave both WHM and RDM the same aoe spell. SE said they didn't want to do that. You seem to of interpreted that as they wouldn't be against giving RDM a single target version, but that wasn't their intent. They didn't give us aoe's because they didn't want us buffing you and instead wanted WHM to be the one doing it. If you want barspells and +25 STR then go ask your WHM to do it as SE intended.
I agree and would absolutely love it if these were implemented. I have no problem using accession to buff a bunch of people.Quote:
2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.
Is justQuote:
"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."
Said differently.Quote:
1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.
And
Is wrong, SE never took away any of our spells. Our other target-able spells are exactly the same as they were at 75, Haste, Refresh, Protect, Shell, Phalanx II, if anything it's technically grown since the introduction of Refresh II. /SCH allows all except Refresh II, Haste and Enspell II to be cast on other players.Quote:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."
Most of your argument is just a rehash of what people said after SE introduced Temper. They didn't change their mind then, they won't change it now. It isn't going to happen because SE doesn't want it to happen.
Plus you would NEVER go RDM if they introduced these changes. Your entirely too aggressive a player to be content spamming the same three to four spells every 4~5 min on a bunch of jocks bragging about their e-peens. Your own e-peen requires that you join in somehow and such you would ask someone else in your LS to come RDM so you could come MNK or WAR or whatever job it is you play now.
That could be alleviated if SE would be reasonable and made cast / recast really short. A 1s cast time and 3~5s recast on all those spells would make them somewhat more endurable to cycle. -
03-13-2012, 08:23 PMNeisan_Quetz
Point 1 was already explained to you a page back, so go back and read it. A melee's job is to you know deal damage at close range, you going up and hitting mobs with unfavorable AoEs means you are wasting resources either on yourself or the healer has to decide who to heal (any smart one will not choose you and will keep the DD alive); you just become a burden either on your healers or on your own resources burning them to keep yourself alive.
Point 2 being engaged does nerf your cures as you lose up 24% cure potency, unless you're going to advocate gimping your damage by using inferior weapons. And if you didn't notice the cure power on both 5-6 was lowered slightly/not affected by the change (in fact, the lower cures are now more efficient than 5, and 6 is even less efficient than normal outside, which I find quite ironic because I personally felt that wasn't possible, and yet SE went above and beyond the Call of Duty).
Point 3 you get put in the Blm party because you can't really support anything else.
Point 4:
You're full of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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03-13-2012, 11:42 PMOphannus
On the plus side, RDM feels like a god in old content. I know it's pointless but it's still kind of fun running around doing old content on RDM, nuking for 1500+, pulling off 2k+ weapon skills, 600 cure IVs, gravity2/sleep2/binding stuff, taking single digit damage with PDT/Phalanx, dual wielding swords with capped equip haste and 30 damage enspells and temper. On old content RDM feels like an FF3 onion knight in that we can do everything amazing.
Sometimes I feel as though SE religates RDM to be a job only useful for mid-game content. It seems like they've designed RDM to be good at lower levels and crap at higher levels not unlike Red Mages in older, offline final fantasies where after like level 60 you job change your RDMs into BLMs or other mage jobs. They seem to want to keep us able to be decent at a little bit of everything but if they give us stronger nukes and stronger cures, we'd impinge upon SCH territory. They gave SCH higher tier regen spells but tbh I feel as though that should have been RDM's domain. Let SCH get cure 5 with Addendums and let RDM be the king of HoT and DoT. Give us Regen III/IV and V, Refresh III and IV, Poison III/IV, Bio IV, Dia IV. Let WHM, BLM and SCH be good for strong nukes and cures, but let RDM deal damage over time and heal hp/mp over time. It fits our enhancing/enfeebling nature. They're limited to what new enfeebles to give RDM without making the game too easy which is probably why our enfeebles hardly proc or wear off so soon on HNMs, if Paralyze II was as effective on HNMs as it is on regular monsters, the game would be *even easier* than it is now I supposed.
Since we already have such a huge library of spells I can see why SE hesitates at making RDM stronger in any one aspect since no other job has as many spells and tools as us(the only problem is most of our spells become outdated or worthless because they only affect us. I just can't comprehend why they gave RDM self-cast versions of enhancing magic and gave WHM AoE versions. They keep calling WHM they healing specialist yet they get like 70% of our spells in AoE form. Why not let WHM only have AoE Cures/Heals, let BLM have only AoE nukes and let RDM be the specialist of AoE debuffs and AoE enhancing? If RDM had Hastega/Protectra/Shellra/Bar-a and Enspell-ga we'd garner more worth in parties yet for some reason they gave AoE's to other classes and left RDM at self-cast. No point in boosting RDM's own abilities when on endgame content our native skills and abilities are so weak already that even with the boosts we're still extremely lackluster. Haste/Temper/Gain-Str and Enthunder II boosts our melee capability from F to maybe D- which is roughly the equivalent of a Perle BST. -
03-14-2012, 07:07 AMsaevelI asked these questions as I agree that we should be able to buff other melee's near us. SE's answer was they wanted WHM to be the specialize in AoE buffing with white magic. Which I took to mean that they don't want RDM's putting out buffs on other party members.Quote:
I just can't comprehend why they gave RDM self-cast versions of enhancing magic and gave WHM AoE versions. They keep calling WHM they healing specialist yet they get like 70% of our spells in AoE form. Why not let WHM only have AoE Cures/Heals, let BLM have only AoE nukes and let RDM be the specialist of AoE debuffs and AoE enhancing? If RDM had Hastega/Protectra/Shellra/Bar-a and Enspell-ga we'd garner more worth in parties yet for some reason they gave AoE's to other classes and left RDM at self-cast.
Our melee is a damn sight better then F-/D-, near NIN / THF / DNC group depending on target. Most people got this image stuck in their head of an AF wearing RDM swinging an underleveled sword. What RDM is lacking is uber gear, I have pretty much the best melee set you can build for RDM and my body if from level 75. Parts of my WS set are from 75, and most newer gear was slightly upgrades from older gear. We were kept off the truly awesome stuff (Toci / Athos's / ect..) and put on the every mage gear which absolutely sucks.
For example, I looked over the Rub set and other then the legs, it all sucks for RDM. It's literally just a weak version of our Emp +2 set, basically an enfeebling set for WHM, BLM and SCH. This is the crap I get pissed at, if your going to put RDM on a mage set then it better be a damn good mage set (like Emp) now some crappy set that stats worse then those from 90. -
03-14-2012, 07:56 AMNeisan_QuetzNo, not really... no.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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03-14-2012, 08:19 AMsaevelYes, really yes. I can demonstrate if you want to come to Lakshmi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
I looked over what you did last time you tried to craftermath it up, and you used moten's PLD template and butchered the heck out of it. You then created an imaginary NM to fight against and nerfed the PLD while buffing the BLU to get your 30% figure. You deliberately adjusted the attack / defense values so that the PLD would be under 1.0 ratio while the BLU wouldn't. -
03-14-2012, 08:43 AMNeisan_Quetz
Except Mot has a Rdm Nin and Dnc sheet...? I only used a pld sheet because one for Rdm hadn't been made yet, or are you talking about blu? For nin/thf/dnc vs Rdm I used fodder mobs lol, Rdm is still behind all of them. Try again. You compare Emp Rdm to shit tier Thf/nin/dnc and think the job is 'keeping up', give it up.
And I've never used any imaginary NM, the highest monster I ever compare Rdm to is Bukhis/Qilin (Even Qilin you shouldn't be meleeing). Anything else and you shouldn't be meleeing it.
You know what all 3 of those 3 can do Rdm can't? /War and still have dual wield, that's why cratio is low on high defense mobs. I don't assume outside buffs/debuffs, hold that against me. I also assume the other jobs aren't getting Dia3.
Oh and btw, even if you had Ageha and Dia3 on Bukhis, you still get crushed in DPS by all 3. -
03-14-2012, 08:53 AMDaniel_Hatcher
Blah! Blah! Melee nonsense in an Enhancing thread. Blah! Blah!
Like I said, unless we can keep on topic SE will always ignore RDM, so Thanks! -
03-14-2012, 09:09 AMsaevelYou made a level 107 Buhkis outside of Abyssea. It was a fictional monster, Buhkis isn't level 107, we fought him at level 85. You put him at that level to create additional LCF to force the RDM under 1.0 Ratio. At 99 with ~650 attack vs a lv 107 570 defense mob your Ratio is going to be so low that anything with zerk is going to deal 20~30% more melee damage period. THF can't go /WAR without giving up DWIII which is a 13.6% boost in it's melee Damage. But with high defense targets the damage from zerk means more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Your assumptions were based on the PLD vs BLU you passed off as RDM vs BLU was so BS it ruined your credibility. The attack difference from a well geared BLU vs a geared RDM is approx 50.
Anyhow time for work but everyone here should know your comparisons are complete BS due to your unrealistic targets and manipulating the attack / defense sections. -
03-14-2012, 09:30 AMNeisan_Quetz
Thf has DwIII at 99 rofl, do you even know what you're talking about?
I didn't know Bukhis's level at the time (nor was a Rdm sheet in existence, thanks for bringing up something from a few months ago), hence I was using a Pld sheet...Assuming you could fight him outside (he's a T mob), guess what, you still get beat hard by Any of those 3. Thanks for bringing the attack difference up though, it's not like Blu doesn't have superiour traits, gearsets, skill, can /war and still maintain Dw3, or the ability to self SC with spells -ohwait it can. Or are you going to recant your statement of Rdm being decent, because it's not even good at killing fodder mobs.
EDIT: other than the defense value I had to geusstimate back then, I didn't change anything extraodrinary on the sheet at all. Rdm has B skill while Pld is A+, so that had to be changed. Enlight has an accuracy bonus, so that also had to be removed (I couldn't think of anything to do about recasting enspells sooner, so I just left it). That's the only things I seriously modified. If you're going to call that butchering I'm done responding to you. -
03-14-2012, 10:12 AMDuelleConsidering one constantly feeds off the other, it ain't gonna happen. If it makes you feel any better, I was miffed when the guys here invaded the melee thread. Shoe's on the other foot and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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03-14-2012, 07:17 PMsaevelConsidering I was able to reproduce your results by playing with the defense values and LCF I know exactly what you did. You didn't include any of the RDM's self buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Also Moten's current sheet doesn't even have Gain-XXX spells on it. Granted RDM melee comparisons are not in-demand and I figure they got more things to do first.
Geared BLU has 50 more attack then RDM, this is from gear and +10 from attack bonus. This isn't debatable, I happen to be a very well geared BLU with all Toci's and all, it happens to be my most played job. I know ~exactly~ what that job has for gear and if I want to see the difference it's as simple as walking into the MH and job swapping. Both jobs eat the same food and receive the same buffs. BLU has much better WS gear, RDM can buff a single stat by 25 The difference between the two comes down to Attack, the BLU can use Zerk for a 25% bonus 3/5 of the time, RDM can lower the targets defense by ~6% more then Dia II, if it's a pure test then the RDM gets a full 17.6% attack bonus (or 15% defense down) which actually barely beats out zerk buts till puts it under BLU.
The only way you can get 30% is if you carefully chose your LCF and defense values such that the BLU gets over 1.0 and the RDM gets under 1.0. -
03-14-2012, 07:51 PMsaevel
Elvann 99 RDM/NIN, 12 STR merits 8 sword merits 5% crit merits
Unbuffed no Food
STR:103+21
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 551
Haste:25%
DA: +10%
TA: +2%
Crit: +5%
Store TP:+10
W/ Bison Steak (+6 STR +90 attack@500 costs 5.5K each lasts 3hr)
STR: 103+27
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 644
W/Buffs
STR:103+52
DEX:84+24
Attack: 656
Dia III applied: 771.4
or
STR:103+27
DEX:84+49
Attack: 644
Dia III applied: 757.3
The rest
DA: +30%
Enspell +30 (29.15 at capped magic accuracy)
DW: 30%
99 Elvann BLU/WAR same as above
STR:103+31
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 581
Haste:24% (BLU needs to wear AF body, Zelus Tiara or Octh+1 to reach 25% haste)
DA: +26%
TA: +6%
Crit: +8% (Athos's boots and tights)
Critical Attack: +4% (A.Tights)
Store TP:+16
W/Food
STR:103+37
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 674
DW: 30%
Berserk:
Attack:820
Averaged as: 761.6
JT's set were DWIII, TA, Store TP I, Auto-Refresh, Utility Spells were Battery Charge, M.Fruit, A.Burst and WoP for 52/60 remaining for whatever else is needed possibly sTP II. Could disable utility spells but lose out on self healing and aoe erase.
757 vs 761.6
That is the difference. No way in hell are you getting a 30% difference between those two unless your doing some really dirty manipulation. BLU wins hands down in WS gear, it has a monstrous amount of DEX due to Toci's, Oth Head and Atho's set. Both jobs can achieve capped critical hit rate on the "outside Abyssea Bukhis during WS. BLU will hit cap crits on anything with 102 or less AGI during melee, at 112 or more that tappers off. RDM on the other hand only hits cap on things with 83 or less AGI, fodder basically.
What you did was give either give the BLU Dia III (or just Dia II from someone else) or simply not buff the RDM. You can get the BLU to capped haste by buying a ~6mil head piece or by switching out the body / head, which would yield less damage due to the DA/TA and dDex involved.
This is all gear I actually have, and not even in the most remote elitist mind can it be called gimp or average. -
03-14-2012, 08:11 PMNeisan_Quetz
You can add in Gain spells manually, is that seriously too hard for you?
700 DPS are you serious... are you targeting EPs? You don't hit that with marches on a EP mob. -
03-14-2012, 08:13 PMsaevel
Finally WS,
WS
RDM
STR:103+28
DEX:84+91
Attack:652
Attack Dia III: 766.7
DA:28
TA:0
Crit:+5%
BLU
STR:103+44
DEX:80+85
Attack:681
Attack Berserk:828
Averaged Attack: 769.2
DA:24
TA:6
Crit:+9% (Athos's Hand + Feet + Leg)
Only difference here is for HQ Kak hands and / or feet. The set provides +1% after the first two so ends up being a wash without the body. I believe the body is the better Ws piece due to its +5% crit damage and slightly higher DEX, but there is DA + TA from the Toci's body. Should be close between them.
And I stand corrected, RDM actually has the same or slightly more DEX on WS set due to Gain-DEX making up the difference and then some. BLU can use the +7 ring but most give up the DA / TA from epona's. -
03-14-2012, 08:17 PMsaevelWhich you didn't do. I doubt you even added Temper seeing as it was a PLD sheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
You also didn't even read or you'd recognize that the numbers aren't dps but attack values to show your misconception that /WAR is giving you some huge attack bonus is false. Neither is DA / TA giving you much of a multi-hit edge due to RDM's Temper.
It boils down to BLU having slightly higher attack, slightly more TA but less DA (due to Toci / Epona) and slightly more crit hit rate.
Those together would be enough for a 10~15%, even as much as 20% assuming the worst cast scenario for the RDM (high LCF mob which has annoying magic resistance). But to get 30% you need to be very dishonest with the numbers you use.
You also failed to account for any utility brought to the table other then damage. Seeing as this was a pure "RDM is the worst DD in the game" message from you, I pretty much just proved you wrong. Anything that RDM has a problem doing damage on, BLU will to. So by saying RDM is the worst you also say BLU is the worst due to their stats being so similar.
Anothing thing to note, Moten's sheet is missing things. The current RDM sheet does not have Gain-Stat and requires you to manually input it. Also it's missing gear, Tyrants Ring and Rancor Collar, both of which I happen to use. Those are a bit harder to add as their stats get swapped out during TP and WS and manually editing the data sets can screw the formula's up. -
03-14-2012, 08:20 PMsaevel
Now do you know what's better then both those scenarios? Putting them together, RDM/NIN + BLU/WAR (or both /DNC for dynamis). Dia III not only spikes your Ratio but also spikes your attack on Blue Magic Spells. It's one of the few ways to raise the damage of Blue Magic by a significant amount. It gives everyone an attack boost similar to an alliance wide Minuet.
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03-14-2012, 08:28 PMNeisan_Quetz
You can add that manually, are you seriously too retarded to do that?
Using current pld sheet adjusted for Blu and actual Rdm sheet. Removed toci's for NQ harness. Left rest as Athos or HQ ocelomeh (spare me the gil arguments, Rdm is using near perfect set). Food is RCB for both, Blu/war DW3 STP1 TA and has Dia2, Rdm/Nin Dia 3. Target is fodder 420 base defense, both are tarutaru like race makes anything more than a 1-2% difference.
Blu/War 242.611 DPS overall accounting for Zerk Up/Down
Rdm/Nin 233 DPS
Oh okay, I'll take that back, on DC mobs Rdm is 3% behind a Blu who never casts spells and can't skillchain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
This is pretty ironic coming from you after all your whining about how BLu was a better healer enfeebler and damage dealer than Rdm. -
03-14-2012, 08:45 PMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
And thus I am proven correct. It's no where near 30% as you stated, nor is it "the worst DD evar!!" as you've been letting on. I didn't make a gil argument, I merely demonstrated EXACTLY what I had. I even stated that you could reach 25% haste by buying it and allowed for it. I used Bison Steak because it's cheap and what I use most of the time at 5.5K a stack. RCB's are hella expensive, your not spamming those. Of course I get my RCB's free thus I can spam those, but I certainly don't expect everyone else to.
And what your not saying is that a BLU who is casting spells will do less damage then a BLU who is spamming CDC as casting lowers your TP gain rate and melee damage. So your actually showing your optimal setup as long as you don't cast spells. Self SCing once per 1:40, assuming your TP and timers magically align with the monster remaining HP so as to not overkill it, is the only thing missing off that list. Self SCing is not going to add 27% additional damage (3% -> 30%).
And you cheated, you can't have two sub jobs so you can't add Dia II to the monster for an 11.1% attack bonus. Someone else has to, but we'll allow that seeing as this is a party enhancing thread and we're all about helping each other out.
You said RDM was one of the worst DD's you even placed WHM above RDM. You placed DNC, THF, BLU and even BRD above RDM. And we just demonstrated how that was all wrong, RDM is right behind a BLU/WAR. It should be behind BLU, it should be in the same bracket as THF / NIN / DNC. Honestly the only thing RDM is missing is some decent gear options in the Body and feet department. -
03-14-2012, 08:51 PMNeisan_Quetz
It's behind Thf Nin Dnc and Blu I'm sorry but you're pretty delusional if you think being 3% within Blu means you're close to those 3. Except maybe a terribad Thf, or a Bad Nin. Excuse me, why would you take Rdm at that point? That's pretty damn terrible. Are you seriously happy you beat the other mages? I mean, really? You're happy you can outDD Smn Blm and Sch? Damn I wish I could be as cool as you.
(I intentionally ignored Whm because I don't believe they should be meleeing actually. I don't have the patience to math Brd - Actually, it wouldn't even take longer than a half hour).
Tashan already explained to you spellcasting on Blu on the Blue forum, go read it again.
Sorry, I carry a pocket Whm, so Dia2 will be on unless you solo on Blu/war (not gonna happen). You already admitted you duo so you'd have dia 3 for both (Rdm now 6% behind Blu on fodder). -
03-14-2012, 08:58 PMsaevel
Now this has all been fun but in all honestly there isn't an activity in existence that will have either BLU or RDM not casting anything. The difference between them will depend on casting load of each. The BLU's two buffs (Refresh / Haste) last 5min each, and honestly you should only need refresh if your needing to Cure bomb yourself a lot. The RDM has Haste / Refresh II / Temper / Enspell / Gain-DEX that need to be kept up, all at 11:42 recasts. This gives the BLU more swing time. And lets be honest, a RDM will be casting more then self buffs, they should be casting Dia III on every target and depending on target Paralyze II / Slow II. Both jobs have the capacity to heal but the RDM is traditionally expected to heal more, especially after next update (or whenever they introduce the healing buff).
Your real difference between the two is in the RDM's casting load, it's a job that can offer more then brunt melee damage and is expected to do more. And while a BLU can do this also, and some (including me) would say can do it better then RDM, most BLU's seem to temperately unlearn the spells M.Fruit, P.Embrace and W.Wind. Thankfully my duo partners haven't been effected by this disease yet.
Now back to skilling up healing magic skill. -
03-14-2012, 09:05 PMsaevelAnd Prothscar explained it even better. All Tashan showed were Damage:MP ratios which are not what we're talking about. We need Damage:Time ratios and with Almace and /WAR greatly favor WS spam vs spell spam. A BLU/WAR who doesn't cast outside of self SC will deal more damage then one who spams spells. Casting one DD spell or two doesn't matter, it all reduces your TP gain rate, the more you cast the worse it gets. And the funny part is BLU spells get worse the higher the target. So in the situation where BLU would gain vs RDM, higher LCF, those spells you claim will add 27% would be much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
And by your own math it's 3% from your perfectly geared BLU. By your own admission then your behind the THF, NIN and DNC.
This wasn't an exercise about party support, it was a pure measurement of DD potential. By your own argument why bring a BLU when you can bring a THF, DNC or NIN who is, by your own argument, better then your BLU. And why bring any of them when you can just bring lots of WARs, MNKs and SAMs who are the undisputed kings of the DD hill. If damage is your only measure of a job, which you've demonstrated it is, then bringing a BLU instead of a WAR/SAM/MNK would be a bad decision.
Please argue more, you've already made yourself look very bad. You even disproved your earlier statements about BLU being "30%" better then a RDM. You can't make any sort of damage statements after doing that.
And if you really want to go off the deep end, I have my own 99 WHM that I dual box frequently. My SAM + my WHM will crush your BLU + WHM, but then we've really gone off the lank of pink butterfly's and this discussion becomes no longer relevant.
Thus on fodder, 3% which is 1000% less then your previous statement of 30%. You were off by a whole order of magnitude, talk about hyperbole. -
03-14-2012, 09:32 PMNeisan_Quetz
Slippery slope more please. Please keep bringing up a guess I made a couple of months ago, and the fake Bukhis was actually pretty close to a T3 VWNM (once again, wouldn't melee, but your statement that 'Blu does just as bad' is wholly incorrect).
Rdm isn't even the same league as Nin and Dnc, and I highly doubt Thf as bad as it is, but by a smaller margin. You're delusional if you think it is so just stop right there. -
03-14-2012, 09:52 PMcidbahamutJust start reporting the posts for being off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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03-14-2012, 10:02 PMsaevelSo your admitting that BLU isn't even in the same league as a NIN, DNC and THF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
And now it's a "guess" is it? You were pretty adamant, even so far as to call people names and make all sorts of wild statements, based on that "guess". Must of been one helluva guess. And I take it this statement about NIN, DNC and THF is also a "guess". Well if your previous guess is anything to go by then your wrong on this one by an order of magnitude, 1000%.
But please continue, I know your working over the spreadsheets right now trying to up this value, or lower that value to find a combination of def / vit / level that gives your position the biggest lead. You even going to go so far as to assume some other RDM is casting Dia III for your BLU/WAR in an attempt to make that number bigger.
Face it, you were wrong about RDM. You have even admitted it here, though you didn't realize you had until afterwards. You post of 3% difference is not the 30% you claimed. And even if you raised the level of the target it won't be 30%. You'll get 10~15% at best, 20% if the RDM is penalized in some fashion. That puts RDM right in line with what I've been saying for years now. RDM melee isn't weak, worthless or bad, it's within the same bracket of NIN / THF / DNC and BLU. It's not better then them, but it won't be far behind them either. And no where near a "F" rating.
But please, continue on. Your posting for the entire world to see and you've already disproved your earlier point. Calling names doesn't really help your position.
And btw, just to clarify a misconception you might have. A BLU/WAR with CDC is better then a NIN, THF or DNC. CDC beats out Hi and RS is only good if stacked with SA or TA. THF and DNC would be using Exten as their WS of choice. What makes CDC so strong is that it's a multi-hit critical WS with a high DEX mod. Stacking DEX not only raise's D and acc but raise's the critical hit rate until cap. If your perfect BLU/WAR can't crush the RDM/NIN, then neither will a NIN, DNC or THF. -
03-14-2012, 10:12 PMsaevel
Already did, that's the point. Your now backing yourself into a corner. You made a sweeping generalization months ago, have used that statement at every opportunity to bash and insult me and other RDMs. And your just proved yourself wrong in front of the very people you insulted.
Like I said, continue on, everyone's watching. This is the reason I've had you on ignore for months, only occasionally clicking view to see if your tones changes, and it hasn't. Maybe after this you'll stop posting anti-RDM stuff here. In any case you'll be hearing about this from now until the servers shutdown. -
03-14-2012, 10:17 PMNeisan_Quetz
You obviously haven't or you wouldn't be thinking they're in the same bracket on fodder or harder mobs.
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03-14-2012, 10:54 PMsaevelSo tell everyone, is these THF, NIN and DNC weaker then your BLU/WAR?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Anyhow, lets end this right here and right now. Your wrong about RDM vs BLU, you've demonstrated your wrong. So stop making derogatory comments about RDM melee as every comment you make now applies to your perfect BLU/WAR also. -
03-14-2012, 10:56 PMNeisan_QuetzMaybe from Blu/War. Most definitely not from Rdm. Rdm is a worst DD than all the heavy melees, all of the light melees, behind Blu (Rdm close to Nin in DD? you play with some fucking shitty Nins), probably abit better than Brd and Whm (assuming both are getting marches in Brd's case), and above Smn/Blm/Sch strictly because of how bad all 3 are at meleeing. I'm going to ignore Cor because trying to figure out RA/Qds is too troublesome, but I'd easily put money on WF/Last Stand over Rdm, so yea, that's a pretty bad DD if you can't justify it meleeing on fodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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03-14-2012, 10:58 PMsaevelSo your stating that your perfect BLU/WAR is behind all those then? And yes CDC beats Hi, NIN's complain about Hi all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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03-14-2012, 11:01 PMNeisan_Quetz
Yes, it's behind an autoattacking Blu/war. Please post your proof of CDC on Rdm beating Hi, on fodder and even harder mobs, it's not happening even with Hi's unfavourable Mod. A decent Nin will absolutely outdamage a Rdm anywhere.
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03-14-2012, 11:01 PMsaevel
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Blade:_Hi
4.0 first hit, 1.0 on off hand hit. 5.0 fTP total 60% AGI mod, 15% bonus crit at 100tp
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Chant_du_Cygne
2.25 on first hit, 1.0 on second and third and off hand hit. 5.25 fTP total 60% DEX mod, 15% bonus crit at 100 TP
Hi's mod only increase D, CDC's mod increase's D and enhanced hit rate another 10~15%.
Swords have higher D then Katana's.
Yes CDC wins between those two. -
03-14-2012, 11:02 PMNeisan_Quetz
Okay, so you have no proof, that's all you had to say. It's okay, I got most of the day, I can wait.