All these AGI INT etc. mods for DRK and DRG should go period. STR is where it's at.
Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99
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12-11-2011, 09:19 AMColdbrand
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12-11-2011, 11:29 AMEconomizer
I'm mainly focusing on the Aftermath for what I'm talking about, but I think talking about other factors is good too:
I don't think it will ever be able to hit the Haste cap, and attack 2-3 times is a mythic thing. On the other hand, changing the haste to its own category (or at least magic cap) that can help hit the total Haste cap would help. It would be very risky for having it compare to other damage weapons to break the cap period, but being able to hit the Haste cap without a Bard or Dancer on hand would still be incredibly powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
The no distance penalty thing for the WS sounds good. If people judge the aftermath as fine, then it probably is - I know that my issue I had was looking at stuff like this and Catastrophe and thinking "Why aren't the rest of the aftermath effects as good as these?"Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
The aftermaths on these are pretty terrible in general. Definitely need improved versions. If shockspikes is going to be kept, then it should have a near 100% stun rate in addition to the massive damage we only see on NMs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
Regen... if that's going to be kept, it should be something absurd like 100HP/tic.
These are very easy, just increase the cap for these weapons, and maybe increase the effect to scale with level.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
Personally, I think the accuracy affecting aftermaths should make missing a near impossibility if not an impossibility, but that's just me. -
12-11-2011, 03:21 PMmacross
Again, seems just asking to make relics stronger than empy, while retaining their special properties. I agree some need work, but so do some empys.
Apoc, let's make this do mega dmg, while keeping the haste and life steal.
gun, let's make this do way more dmg, but keep the -enmity, and heck let us melee and shoot it too!
Bow, let's make this do way more dmg, but keep the -enmity, and heck let us melee and shoot it!
Bravura, lets make it do as much dmg as ukko, but keep the super tanking dt AM.
Amano, alreayd as good as masa or better, so let's make it better for sure!
Guttler, whatever bst doesnt need a weapon. If anything let it help your pet instead of doing mega dmg.
Katana, Let's make it stronger in abyssea. Guess what, hi sucks ass outside abyssea. Relic already better using jin.
sphrai, let's make it as good a VS, but let us counter near 100% too! Better still we won't have to rely on impetus to make it uber.
Staff, whatever
Relics already have built in dbl triple dmg, without even relying on AM.
Relics already are good vs strong mobs. Not as high dmg as some empys, but you got the other special to make up for it.
Maybe you guys are just playing in abyssea and feel your relics suck? cause they do, INSIDE abyssea. Outside, they are good enough.
Do some VW and compare how relics do, they do just fine and dandy. Relics still are the highest base dmg weapons in the game. You can always use the new WS with them as well, where as you cannot with empys as you lose their AM. Only good empys are gaxe, bow, gun, gkt, and h2h, sword. Go watch blade hi hit for 75 dmg on qilin lol. Come level 99, you will be using lvl 99 relics, vs people with lvl 90 empys cause let's face it, not many can or will upgrade empy to 95.
And kitkat, how long did your ls mate take to finish his ukon and h2h? you said 4 man mostly, 75 hours. Did you count the time he spent doing the 25+ NM's beforehand? 600 coins a day, 2hours a day. Yep easily make a relic in under 75 hours, if 4 people went in and farmed 2 hour a day each, and gave all the currency to you. Again your friend is probably underestimating his time spent, time kinda flys fast.
Economizer, bst/dnc is best to farm with, using a ladybug pet for th. bst will outdmg a thief, plus bst is great for getting the Time Extensions. biggest impact on coins is how fast you can get the 5 time extensions. Team up with others then split up after you get them all is best if you can. secondly it's how much competition you have. You can solo 150 coins a day with a perle wearing bst with crappy AH bought weapons. People even lvl up brand new mules to farm dynamis more than once a day. Gear up the bst more and you can hit 200 a day.
That being said, I tried out many combos of jobs, before settling on dnc dnc bst. This relies more on getting 100's to drop with lucky white procs. You can still easily avg 400 a day using 3 jobs/dnc to proc then finishing with strong dd like blu or sam.
I realize some took many years to make their relics, but some didn't. Some make their empys in days, while others take months. All boils down to how hard is it make now, not then. Empys used to be damn hard to make too, it's why i have a lot of woe weapons because empys were just too hard to make back then. Used to take months to get to 75 too, now it takes 1 day. Just because you lvled the hard way long ago doesn't mean you deserve to be better than someone who lvls in 1.
I"m not putting down relics just cause I've upgraded my empy to 95 either. Both were easy to make. Both empys and relics have shitty weapons and good weapons. If bravura starts doing more dmg then ukkos, then what exactly is the point in making ukko. One tanks better, one dps's better. they are balanced. same can be said for h2h. sphrai tanks better, vere dps better. gun and bow, relic survive better, empy more dmg. Getting killed is 0 dps. Surviving and doing less per hit is better than dying.
For relics being so hard to make, empys should be a breeze, so why complain at all, just jump on the bandwaggon and make one no? The jist of the matter is people relics want to feel special, not run of the mill. Want something rare to brag about, but since they suck not, there's nothing to brag about, so is some butthurt there. Empys felt special back when they were hard too. Heck I remember making my WOE h2h soon as lvl 85 was out, and blowing peoples minds with it in xp pts. Now that everyone has an empy, they are nothing special. At least mythic holders can feel good, till the up alex drop rates at least.
PS, bravura can do as much dmg as ukko, you just need to use your 2h. So if that's all you got in abyssea, then pop those 2h chests and go at it. -
12-11-2011, 05:15 PMCreelo
Yes, relic WSs need to be reworked.
And Gjallarhorn should get its own song (Ex: Massacre Elegy) <.<
:X -
12-11-2011, 07:24 PMCljader1I agree with this, there should be a special relic song added too this horn. Adleast SE said there looking into further enhancement to make to the weaponQuote:
Originally Posted by Creelo
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12-11-2011, 10:54 PMKitkat
~Rolls eyes~ You must not know how to do math very well if you think raising ftp to 4.0 makes it stronger than emp. Getting on at around 4pm my time and usually getting off around 10 or 11pm, his weapons are done in roughly 4 days up to 85 easily. Gun he started on Wednesday, it's 85 as of Friday night. I already humored you and answered every question you asked in prior post. You've yet to humor me without being sarcastic, or you compare the weapons on other weaponskills and ignore points brought up. So like everyone else is doing at this point, I'm ignoring you, just like you ignore any argument of substance.
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12-12-2011, 12:22 AMCrysten
Relics need to be looked at from a broad perspective; not just the WS. Remember these weapons have hidden effects, additional effects and in the case of 2H weapons, a 20% 2-3x damage proc without the need for a constant Aftermath.
If you're asking for Relics to be the best from every regard, you're being dumb. If you're asking for Empyreans to be the best from every regard, you're also being dumb. The only weapons that even deserve the "time > difficulty" argument for them are Mythics. Period.
Relics, as a whole, have become much more viable and powerful since the 95 update, and really, who knows how Relics, Empyreans and Mythics are going to compare until the update hits.
As it currently stands, there are some weapons that are gonna be absolutely freaking broken should you increase the base WS damage to that of Empyreans. Amano, Apoc, Excalibur, Bravura and Annihilator immediately spring to mind for this. Amano was already very much on par with Masamune on lower defense mobs, Apoc is already DRK's best scythe as it is, Excalibur has it's HP > damage ratio, Bravura allows a full PDT build in full Haste and Annihilator has the utility of having it's enmity supression.
There are of course relics that could use adjustments to make up for crappy aftermaths (hi Gungnir) and mage Relics just need a bloody slap in the face, but looking at the bigger picture, I feel relics are based more on utility and Empys are based on pure damage.
Also, if you're comparing 99 Relics, you need to compare the 99 Empyrean equivilent. Until next update, we still don't know if there'll be any adjustment to the way an Empy becomes fully upgraded. You never know, Empys could have little to no improvement from 90-99, whereas relics could have an amazing hidden effect we have no idea about in addition to the Afterglow, whatever that is. -
12-12-2011, 01:26 AMUnleashhellLol, Have you even seen Knights of Round? It sucks... No matter how much HP you have. Not to mention your almost never at max HP to benefit from the most % you can get out of any WS with that sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
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12-12-2011, 01:47 AMCrystenDo you even know how your sword works? The HP additional effect and the occasional 2.5x damage procs are independent of Knights of Round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
Excalibur is already a beastly DPS sword on any higher level mob because of this alone. If you're not at high enough HP for your Excalibur to matter, get better WHMs. -
12-12-2011, 02:24 AMKitkat
As prior stated, relic 12~20% hidden procs only activate on the first attack of every round while other weapons have the ability to have their 2-4x damage procs activate on any/all hits that come from that weapon, be it 1 hit per round or 3 hits per round. This alone would go a long way in helping relics by removing the pseudo "12~20%" and making it a true 12-20%.
When you compare the ws, to give just a base fTP increase, or even the ability to scale with varied tp amounts, they still will not touch Emp in overall total damage. Emp has scaling tp and aftermath durations long enough to hold over ws to ws while activating on all hits of the weapon;scaling from 30 to 50% activation depending on level of aftermath.
Even if SE decided to leave them all as one hit wonders, a scaling 3.25ftp to 3.75 (a few with 4.0ftp) would be adequate enough. This is all assuming that they end up being the same exact TP modifier, which is not the case. Some of these could be turned in to simple "ignores defense" rather than "Damage varies by TP" or even be "Chance to crit varies by TP" which could result in different fTP multipliers of them to compensate for the chance to deal critical damage just like other weaponskills with the chance to crit tend to have lower than 3.0ftp.
The flat ftp increase is only assuming that SE has no intention at all to add TP modifiers, meaning the weaponskills would stay as they are but would have a new across the board ftp multipliers which would then place it near to Emp WS totals, but not surpassing them. The ideal behind this is that most other pure DD ws have the ability to start at 3.25 ftp and scale as high as 5.25 ftp while still being a 1hit ws, others are 1.75-2.25 fTP with chance to crit and are multi-hit WS (from 3-4hit) with only one being a 4.0ftp and still being crit hit. -
12-12-2011, 04:43 AMUnleashhellLOL yes I know how my sword works. My point is the actual "Relic weaponskill" which on most relics need to be adjusted a'lot more then the path SE is currently gearing towards. Would be pretty stupid to do a relic and not know how it works...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
If you think the HP% and the hidden effect make Excalibur Beastly your sadly mistaken... -
12-12-2011, 04:53 AMNeisan_Quetz
Excalibur is 2nd or 3rd best Pld mainhand weapon, depending on how much Atonement is nerfed against target mob. I really don't see why this is a problem.
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12-12-2011, 06:07 AMkyomi
While I don't have a relic I can see why people would complain about them given what I have found. I got fed up with the back and forth between which is hrder so did some homework about the topic point instead. All relic being 3.0 ftp, no tp modifiers, and hidden effect changes seem to be valid complaints.
Back at 75 cap this all made sense, but when you introduce a new weapon line then hardly upgrade an existing one you said wouldn't be replaced, it seems like a kick in the teeth. 25% boost seems lacking, even if factored after everything else, when looking at the lack of scaling with tp. Most aftermath add little to nothing to the wielder mking them want to hold tp, and no bonus to aftermath effect or ws damage if they do.
Being stuck with the ws I have, I would be upset if some of my dd ws didn't scale either or have something that made holding tp augment the ws in sme fashion. I don't have to worry about this though, and some of my ws that don't scale at least have multiple hits to fall back on. With that I think the devs really should take a second look at relics and put more effort ot make them act like normal weapons. The unique nature of them seems to be pretty bad. -
12-12-2011, 06:43 AMDarrikenI thought you said you had three peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
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12-12-2011, 07:32 AMCljader1This is true, excalibur is a beast the normal regular hits are monsterous sometimes even doing as much as the ws itselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
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12-12-2011, 07:33 AMCrystenDepends entirely on your target mob, as I've pointed out. I have no idea what mobs you fight on PLD on a regular basis, so I can't make an informed judgement here. I remember seeing parses of Excalibur PLDs making DDs look positively stupid on Jailer of Love back at 75 based on the added/hidden effects alone, but I can't speak for anything at current endgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
If you're talking about fodder mobs and Abyssea, then yes, Excalibur tends to fall behind Almace due to CDC's potency and Aftermath. For current endgame mobs in VW like Qilin, though, an Excalibur in particular is going to hold it's own well provided your support isn't leaving you in the yellow the entire time. The harder the mobs become, the more the balance tilts in favour of relics as the majority of Empyrean WS lose their luster due to mob defense, lower crit rates and so on.
The simple way to put it - shit is situational. Use your Excalibur on harder stuff, Almace on easier stuff, then quit the freaking whining cos Burtgang's better than both of them.
I can't help but feel that sense of entitlement from relic holders again, here, honestly. :/ -
12-12-2011, 10:06 AMmacross
On my own, meaning i'm playing 2-3 chars to farm with, not 3 people. 3 real people would be much more efficient, and done faster than 40 days. 3 real chars you can avg 550 a day likely, each going separately. 30 days or so.
Are you guys actually parsing your damage, or are you just eyeballing and saying they suck? -
12-12-2011, 10:15 AMnewmonkey
Macross why is it you think its ok for empyreans to have very strong weapon skills aswell as a very strong aftermath yet you feel relic weapon skills should be left were they are because some relics have a good aftermath ?
There is nothing wrong with relic holders wanting there relic ws dmg numbers to be equal to empyrean ws numbers you keep going on about bravura and its aftermath, last i checked war can rock a huge chunk of haste now with -pdt gear, metatron does terrible damage compared to ukon and it's a complete and utter joke something needs to be done.
If im wrong and you arn't saying the above then i appologise but it is how you come across. -
12-12-2011, 10:16 AMNeisan_Quetz
In Excal's case, combination of Eyeballing and other factors (possibly including improperly geared). Even then, at 95 KoR's damage compared to Vorpal is close, but as long as accuracy isn't an issue Vorpal still has an edge over it.
M Torment is better now than it was at 75 and outside abyssea does better than Raging (without BR up). -
12-12-2011, 11:03 AMUnleashhellDude they aren't even close. And trust me I got the gear to go with it. I'm not one of these people that get a relic with crappy gear. I get gear first before a relic. My setup has good ACC along with a balance on modifiers and ATT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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12-12-2011, 11:20 AMNeisan_Quetz
You're going to have to post averages then, I have KoR fairly close to Vorpal outside in optimal sets, but still lagging slightly.
If you're trying to compare to CDC well that's just a total loss. -
12-12-2011, 11:42 AMmacross
I compare bravura and ukko cause that what I see every day in my ls raids. We don' do abyssea, haven't in many months. All we do is new dynamis, some woe, and mostly VW. I see amano apoc bravura all comparing well to ukon. War usualy wins parses, but that's just cause war are war. Metatron can beat ukon, due to ukons dying etc, or when you use your 2h. Our last win, metatron was #1 with a 4300 ws as high, but the 2 ukons did die. Even so it still beat out kaiten and apoc and vere.
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12-12-2011, 12:50 PMInsaniac
Didn't read the full thread forgive me if someone mentioned these things already.
I'll talk a bit about Mercy Stroke because I'm a Mandau4Lyfe.
MS is a great WS. It's got a solid mod and a decent aftermath. If I were to boost it without breaking it I would increase the base fTP to 4.0 and have in scale with TP similar to Rudra's. I would also change the aftermath by either a) Increasing the crit rate boost from 5% to 20% or b) Increasing the crit rate boost to 10% and add a crit damage boost of 10% that applies to the WS as well. I think option b may encroach a bit on Varja's territory.
A little off subject since this is about WSs but as far as blanket changes I would definitely change relic damage procs so that they would work on TAs and DAs. Really beyond that the issue with each relic and WS should be addressed individually because blanket buffs would only overpower some and leave others underpowered. -
12-12-2011, 05:36 PMKaizersan
Actually judging from Tanaka way of doing things I believe that Relic and Mythic ws will not be adjusted and the reason being is the new merit ws in some cases are close to emp damage and can be used by any weapon of that type thus giving relic and mythic holders access to a strong ws.
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12-12-2011, 05:53 PMSoidisant
In all honesty, I don't feel the issue is really with Relics. Sure, some of them could do with tweaks to their aftermaths (e.g. Gungnir) and it would be nice if their was some consistency (i.e. hidden effect working on DA and TA) but other than that they're already pretty good.
The underlying problem for me is that some Empyrean WS'es are so fundamentally ridiculous that they overshadow any weapon that doesn't have access with them. It's not like all Empyreans demolish their Relic counterpart, it's only the ones with overpowered WS'es. And there's the real risk that if you buff Relics to match the top tier Empyreans, it would make the vast majority of Empyreans redundant.
Ideally I would have liked to see Relic WS'es damage boosted to levels just below that of Ukko's and Smite OR given a special property like partially ignoring level correction to help them keep up against higher tier mobs. Then to level the playing field for the weaker Empy's, have their meritable WS be on a similar damage level to Ukko's/Smite. -
12-12-2011, 06:35 PMAlerith
I'm currently neither a Relic nor an Empyrean holder (34/50 Helms of Briareus!!!)
That being said, I started serious work on Almace last week, and here I am now finishing up the Helms stage. I've done all this with the help of a single friend, pick up groups and no linkshell.
The friend who comes with me is working on Kannagi and we are splitting helm drops. But in less than three weeks, I will have the level 80 Almace done, and that's while being lazy and going to get the NMs and helms at my own leisure AND while splitting helm drops. Granted the level 80 version is useless, Sobek skins aren't exactly Sins of Indignation.
You can't do this as easily with a Relic. To draw a fair comparison, I'll use the Relic sword, Excalibur. The time it would take to get an Excalibur is much longer, assuming you don't pour out of pocket for currency, and if you loaf around, you're only going to add to that already extensive time.
The overall time and effort required for a 75 Relic surpasses a that of an 85 Empyrean. You're looking at, MAYBE, a month of leisure work for an 85 Empy. You're still looking at 3+ Months of leisure work for a Relic. If you go super hardcore on both, you can probably get an Empy done in three days. For a relic, you're still looking at weeks if not over a month.
I think the only empy that can be considered comparable to a relic in time is Ochain, simply because of the Colorless Souls stage, and even then that's stretching it.
I agree that Relic WS should be stronger, and the weapons themselves better. They are the original "Ultimate Weapons" and if they end up the better of the three Ultimates at 99, I would be perfectly fine with that, even while holding an Almace. -
12-13-2011, 12:09 AMmacross
No, if you are super hardcore you can finish empy in the same amount of time. You would just find ways to make gil and buy the currency to supplement the currency you can farm. Empy is just faster reward, but total effort will be less. I said this before, if you had no time limit in dynamis, you could easily farm it in the same time frame.
Right now, 1 relic cost around 75m due to the over farming of dynamis due to the easiness of it. I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.
Even so, you will have a lvl 95 relic vs an 85 empy with the same leisure time. Likely will have 99 relic before 90 empy if you are leisurely as well.
Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.
Also your quantification of 'leisure time' is very vague. Is that 1 hour a day? 4 hours? 6 hours? How long did it take you to make parties to kill the VNMS? how long did it take you to get t2 pops to spawn them? How long do you take to farm 1 briareus and to kill it every day? how many do you do per day? You maybe done with the 80 stage in 3 weeks you say, but sobek is gonna be another challenge for 2 people. Good luck doing the 90 version without farming cruror to brew as well as getting the actual pop sets. You might recruit others to help, but that will just add to the total man hours you spend. 2 people farming dynamis daily can complete one within 50 days or less. The more man hours you add the faster it becomes. Same with relic, same with empy. -
12-13-2011, 12:32 AMnewmonkey
Ok just to point out most relics are between 150-200 mil to flat out buy i wish i could get one for 75 mil.
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12-13-2011, 12:43 AMBrolicit's about 139 to just outright buy it, but if you cant pull at least 200 coins a night you're doing it entirely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by newmonkey
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12-13-2011, 02:12 AMKitkatRemark is contradicted by the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
Can't use biased arguments on one end of the spectrum to make your point. If you are going to do comparisons you need to drop the "artificial wait times" between NM spawns because these are the same as being restricted to 2hours per day in dynamis. Additionally, multiple people can do the trials at once (up to a full alliance) with different weapons, but this can be compared to relic WS trials (aside from they must all be same weapon) to complete trials. See how that works? Similarities negate one another, you can't subtract it from one side and not the other.Quote:
Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.
Now, given what I know about relic hidden and emp aftermath, not just from practice but from sources, I decided to do a little number crunching with a hypothetical base, 15%ta, 12%da, and 1000 attack rounds. To remove biased view I adjusted emp aftermaths by 60% (lower) to account for the fact they are only up 60% of the time in opposition of relics always there hidden. I compared the two as it currently is, where hidden only procs on first attack per round. I also listed what the outcomes would be if adjusted to work on all attacks of the weapon per round. I then compared this to higher effects of aftermath, but did not do further adjustments based on the fact it is still possible to keep the higher aftermaths up roughly 60% of the time (with all source haste this can raise up to ~78% but would produce a highly biased hypothetical).
Attack rounds: 1000
Triple attack: 15%
Double attack: 12%
Total attacks: 1270
Low end base: 50
ODD base: 100
30% activation at 100%: 381
60% Adjustment: 228
Total: 22800
OTD base: 150
13% activation rate per round: 130
Total:19500
Relic change
If 13% on all hits:
OTD procs: 165
Total: 24750
ODD @20% on all hits: 254
Total Damage: 25400
Occ 2.5 at 15%: 190
total damage: 23750
Emp comparison at higher aftermath
Lv2 Aftermath ~40%: 508
60% Adjustment: 304
Total Damage:30400
Lv3 Aftermath ~50%: 635
60% adjustment: 381
total damage: 38100
Acknowledgement of possible errors: This is all based on a hypothetical base number and assumes either "brick wall" fight or a stream of mobs being supplied removing downtime/wasted aftermath durations. Additionally, this assumes that relic hidden and emp aftermath react as multipliers on the damage dealt, rather than base damage being multiplied then factored into the remaining equation of damage dealt. If the base is multiplied for hidden, but ODD aftermath is multiplied on the damage dealt this would make relic hidden noticeably stronger on high def mobs, but explain why it appears weaker on overall fodder. I can not find trust worthy sources that state one way or the other at this point but will acknowledge this as a potential error anyway. I also acknowledge that the 2.5x hidden percentage may be wrong, I remember seeing that it was either 15% or 17%, but had trouble relocating the post on it.
That said, if it is found that both are factored in the same way then the fix would even out relic with emp, but emp would still have the potential to be stronger than relic due to higher scaling aftermath effect where as relic hidden is static due to being "always active" just lower proc rate. -
12-13-2011, 04:03 AMCrystenThis. The consensus here, from my point of view, is "Relics currently suck simply because their WS is bad." This is obviously the case with a fair few weapons - Gungnir, Spharai, Kikoku and...maybe Yoichi all fit in this category.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
For any other weapon, can any relic holder here produce any substantial evidence to the contrary, be it a parse, gear sets and so on, that shows that their overall damage output is significantly less than an Empyrean on any mob that matters? I've seen no compelling arguments for either side, thus far.
The only weapons people seem to have a huge problem with are those with crit based WS, it seems.
That being sad, I totally agree that the hidden effect procs should be put onto double and triple attacks though, at the very least. -
12-13-2011, 05:21 AMKitkat
Care to define "mob that matters"? Pretty broad or narrow term depending on who you ask.
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12-13-2011, 05:26 AMGreatguardian
Tier 3 Part 2 Voidwatch - either path, Neo Dynamis Dreamlands NMs, can't think of much else that can't be killed by a PUP+SMN combo being run by chimpanzees with downs syndrome.
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12-13-2011, 05:50 AMAtomic_SkullYou can say that about every WS though. If every physical damage WS had the optimal modifier then every WS would be STR modified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
That's why Mercy Stroke was the best dagger WS for so many years, out of all dagger WS it was the only one with a large STR modifier. Twastar only beats Mandau because of ODD and because Rudra's has a larger fTP and scales with TP.
If they follow your advice every single physical damage WS would basically be the same WS with a different animation, unless you're saying that DRK and DRG should get special treatment. -
12-13-2011, 06:13 AMAtomic_SkullNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
10,000 * 17,900 = 179,000,000 -
12-13-2011, 08:57 AMmacross
Maybe on your server. Currency is around 5-7k on mine. Everyone farms, lots of undercutting. Also subtract 3000 from that total, unless you plan on just tossing that extra 3000.
You can easily kill any VW mob with a bunch of pup/smns. You just won't get any good loot ^^
Kitkat, your math assumes you will be constantly fighting, with no amensia or any other status debufs. Having always on dbl/triple dmg is better than having to rely on aftermath. Most will ws at 100 tp, and that's only 30 sec. That wears off pretty damn fast with even a little slack, or when you cannot engage due to no mobs to melee, or amnesia or sleepga or whatever stops you. -
12-13-2011, 09:51 AMKitkat
That is why there is an adjustment of 60% which lowers the proc rate to similar of relics (60% adjustment on 30% aftermath is 18%), but emp aftermath still activates on all hits. I could also factor in the possibility to die, petrify, paralyze, but these are not constant and not something that occurs on all mobs which distorts data. I already listed that it was constant stream or proverbial "brick wall" mechanics, but the truth of the matter still stands as accurate representation. At most you are without aftermath at 100% use for only 10-15% of the time, the remaining 25-30% adjustment is to account for inactivity and the fact it requires the WS to gain the effect.
I have an Emp, this is not outside of improbable and what you mention is only within a small window of which Relics have similar issues that can lower the overall chance of hidden activation..including 95% accuracy cap. What I put up is a blanket representation, what you want is a small window with variables that are inconsistent as not every mob does this, nor is ever player dumb enough to always be in range of the effects due to the possibility of dying. -
12-13-2011, 10:41 AMnewmonkey
5-7 k dyna currency you say Macross lol maybe we should all invade your server because on quetz and valefor i wish it was that cheap lol.
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12-13-2011, 11:15 AMColdbrandNo not really, they might as well make every mod STR since whichever WS does have a STR mod is most likely to take over as the best WS. It's not exclusive to those two. I just know about Geirskogul and Redemption offhand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
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12-13-2011, 11:40 AMwish12ozI believe you are sorely mistaken about your beliefs that empyrean and mythic weapons and weapon skills are better then relic weapon skills. Some empyreans are good, some mythics are good, and some relics are good. Stop crying for one thing to be the best across the board. If you're going to make this arguement, then it should be for mythics to be the best, since they are much much harder to acquire then any relic or empyrean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
The people who are afraid to reveal who they are because they're wrong spew such great knowledge don't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
PROTIP: Mandau is superior to Twastar all the time.
Also: Dynamis currency is 8-9k and dropping on Odin. And relics don't all require 179k to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
EDIT: In fact, I don't think any of them require 179k to make.
New Edit:
While this is true, why don't you notice that we're level 95 right now, and it's much harder to get any empyrean to 95 then any relic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
New new edit:
I'm taking this to mean you think Gugnir is bad compared to the empyrean polearm. Well guess what, Gugnir is vastly superior to the empyrean polearm, because no matter which you have, you'll be using Drakesbane. And in so doing Gugnir still gets its hidden extra damage effect, higher base damage, and ACC that is probably useless, while the empyrean polearm gets... VIT? Lower base damage? .........Where'd the awesomeness of this weapon go?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
Spharai's +counter can make it more useful then Vere when tanking, and from what I hear, the new H2H WS might be on par with Vsmite so this weapon is just looking better and better.
Yoichi's no enmity effect can easily make it more useful then Gandiva for some fights where the RNG doesn't want to make the mob move. (not that RNG is ever all that useful)
Kikoku is the only one you listed here that doesn't hold a candle to it's empyrean counterpart, unless the change to Shun makes it good. But hey, apparently the +attack on Kikoku will carry over if you offhand it now, so it's gonna be the best off-hand katana if nothing else. =3