Cure Formula Changes

Well, I've finally got access to the test server, so I'll try to get some testing done as well when I have some free time tonight or tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

I've finally got access to the test server

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http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...445571377.jpeg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

cat

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That... I... I can't help but smile at that face >.>;

Retested MND and VIT scaling (0-25) at 430 skill.

I'm guessing there are some soft caps at work there that is throwing off making any assumptions...

EDIT:// We've now got a formula for cure power.

Cure 1/2/3 graph
http://i.imgur.com/vJq5O.jpg

Okay so as the testing gets more and more wrapped up I feel the time for analyzing the implications of the change that is being tested gets closer and closer.

Skill: 430 MND: 122 VIT: 86
AF3+2 pants and 50% cure potency

• Cure: 22.5HP/MP
• Cure II: 16.87HP/MP
• Cure III: 22.65HP/MP
• Cure IV: 22.26HP/MP
• Cure V: 15.95HP/MP
• Cure VI: 9.75HP/MP

Note that none of these are factoring in cureskin effects.

Personally, despite the nerfed Cure V/VI values I'm currently not really too upset about how much HP they heal but rather how inefficient they are now. Cutting the MP cost of both spells would be an easy way to make up for their loss of power, especially if magic users will be able to cast large Cure III/IV spells now (one of us will get to this at some point, I'm sure).

If Cure V's MP cost was dropped to 112 MP (a mere 23 MP difference) it would remain competitive with the other cure spells before it. The same would be true of Cure VI if it was dropped to about 142 MP. However it is possible that it is SE's intention that Cure VI remains slightly MP inefficient as an emergency cure. And this would be understandable if it was special in some way aside from the enhanced enmity properties but this is currently not the case. Perhaps the cureskin effect on Cure VI could be enhanced in some way such as providing a -50% damage taken buff while it is still on (effectively doubling the maximum 400 point stoneskin effect for players who have not capped damage reduction to a maximum 800 point version) or greatly increasing the defense of the player who has the cureskin effect until it wears off.

These are major changes as it is so I really hope people understand the implications of what is happening here. Everyone needs Healing Magic support at one point or another and I don't know very many players who solely rely on Blue Magic, pets, and potions to cure them so the effects these numbers will have on the game are simply huge.

Has someone replied to the dev's about Cure V / VI receiving a slight nerf? While we like to think things like that are on purpose, it could of been something the dev's missed while redoing the cure formula. The dev's like WHM, liked so much that they refused to give Cure V to anyone else. I have a hard time thinking they would then nerf it on purpose.

Also Cure IV comes with the penalty of a metric f*ck ton of hate if cast over time. I know on RDM/SCH I used to pull hate curing with Cure IV during lv 95 void watch (before procs become easy). Using that to main heal would be a death sentence for a healer.

Well, they did warn us of a 'slight adjustment', which we presumed to be bad. It's always bad :S Math-wise, the average WHM dropped about 10-40 points on cure V, which isn't a huge nerf to the spell. Efficiency has more or less remained the same as well.

The trouble is more that the other spells received a 40-60% increase over the old formula, whilst cure 5/6 (at best) remained approximately the same... I guess at this point in time it is difficult to say whether 30% HP/MP efficiency is worth the enmity generation.

Although, the comparable efficiency of the spells is one thing we're worried about, there are a number of things we've lightly discussed in googledoc-chat... (changes to gear, SCHs new healing prowess, item economy)


Motenten hopefully will have finalized Cure1-4 formula and soft caps; so today I'll work on getting a larger selection of Cure 5/6 values and hopefully perform a graphical analysis to help confirm motentens predicted soft caps/rates.

EDIT:// figure I'll throw in what the scales are. Horizontal scale is healing power, calculated by the formula that we discovered. POWER = SKILL + MND/2 + VIT/4 (each individual term truncated). Vertical scale is HP healed with 0% potency.



Cure1 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/MtQZY.jpg

Cure2 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/qfzrM.jpg

Cure3 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/Bm8pb.jpg

Cure4 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/RdQ1e.jpg

INITIAL Cure5 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/JgXz2.jpg

INITIAL Cure6 graph:
http://i.imgur.com/ApTfU.jpg

[Space saved for analysis/thoughts]

Rough napkin math::
Using an ideal build...
WHM cure5 is ~1120. cure4 ~890
SCH cure4 ~1005, ~1605 raptured w/+2 head

Mage food is now pretty terrible.

Wondering whether it's worthwhile rolling a 49% potency build.. the difference is 1hp cured on cure5, 2 inventory, and gaining -2enm.

Cure5 doesn't scale as much comparatively via healing magic skill as the other cure values.

Possibility of SCH/RDM (job combo) taking the healing magic crown with strong cure4's (can achieve capped -enm in nigh-perfect build), regen5 potency, embrava and phalanxga.

Tefnut/genbu combo isn't as strong as magian staff build.

Cure6 was terrible before, now it's even worse.

MND gear will now primarily be used for enfeebles, WS mods and divine magic.

Healing magic skill gear (and merits) is now incredibly useful.

Another implication is that a Blue Magic healing set and a normal Healing Magic healing set will soon look totally different since Healing Magic skill will matter so much. My inventory is doomed.

I am almost impressed by how bad Cure VI will be. I imagine one of the Development Bros beaming with pride and schadenfreude after bringing it's efficiency below 10 and well-below half that of Cure IV.

If Cure VI is meant to be that inefficient both in general and compared to the new standard of Cure IV, I'd really like to see some bonus added to it. A special property in the cureskin or a .5 second casting time or CHARGIN MAH HOLY LAZER for the full value regardless of how much HP is restored or something.

This is more a matter of principle than practicality, I guess. The solution is just not to use it but I hate useless spells when it feels like they could easily be given value.

http://i.imgur.com/afCa8.gif

http://i.imgur.com/lBui0.jpg
Right click and view image for larger version.

Some efficiency charts.

Without light arts:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...fa85_thumb.png

With light arts:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...050b_thumb.png

With light arts and whm af3 pants (assuming no over-curing):

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...0cb5_thumb.png


Analysis:

Whm is going to generally be around 500-ish power. Using Light Arts and AF3 pants, Cure V would run a little over 8 HP/MP. Cures 3 and 4 would be up around 11.

Rdm or Sch using Light Arts and Cures 3/4, and assuming somewhere near 500 power, would be hitting 7 HP/MP (or 10-ish for sch with Rapture).

Cures 3 and 4 are clearly the efficiency spells. Cure 5 is acceptable with AF3 pants, and trades efficiency for low enmity. Cure 6 kinda sucks no matter what.

Also, quick comparison of base amount cured with Cure V and Cure VI, since it was noted that the max caps had been reduced.

Assuming:
439 skill (Light Arts, otherwise uncapped) with 35 in gear (body/hands/ring)
125-128-131 mnd (taru/hume/elvaan) with +35 in gear (head/hands/rings/ammo/feet/waist)
83-86-89 vit (taru/hume/elvaan) with Sirona's ring

Code:

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Old Power    Cure V    Cure VI
Taru: 719    717 HP    929 HP
Hume: 731    720 HP    935 HP
Elvn: 743    722 HP    943 HP

New Power
Taru: 521    726 HP    902 HP
Hume: 524    727 HP    904 HP
Elvn: 526    727 HP    905 HP

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Cure V ends up being a smidge ahead with a typical gear set, so the reduction in the cap doesn't mean much; it's right in line with where it's always been.

Cure VI ends up being 3%-4% behind, which is enough that, combined with the very high MP cost, warrants a bit of concern. We should probably ask that Cure VI be reviewed by the devs.

Looks like the testing team finished hammering out the rest of the formula while I was asleep earlier (sorry guys!) and we now have the official formula.

As per what we should be testing now are a few quick tests on stuff SE has stated haven't changed such as Automatons, Blue Magic, Cura, Curaga spells, and the Light Spirit (SE didn't mention this one that I remember actually). This should be pretty simple to do since it is a easy check of the test server vs. the game just to be sure nothing else has changed (and it probably hasn't). A less easy to test bit of interest are NPCs and monsters and cures.

Bit of an aside, any Community Reps wanna check out the formula we have and confirm it to be true? :D

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Since we have the numbers I think it is time explain implications and answer questions. I've compiled some questions I've seen here and the other forum the cure numbers have been posted for the benefit of the reader:

• With the new emphasis on healing skill, will jobs with only subbed healing skill have their cures be weakened?
  No, cures for subjobs are not being weakened relative to their power now since that would gimp low level healers. They will be much less then a main job cure but in general they are significantly more powerful then before assuming you have capped skill for your subjob.
• How is Blue Mage affected by this change?
  According to statements by SE (which we kindly quoted previously in this thread) there should be none. However we haven't tested changes to spirits, pets, Blue Mages, Cura, or Curaga spells yet so we only have SE's statements to go by on these.
• Will Red Mage and Scholar be able to main heal now?
  In Scholar's case, most definitely. In Red Mage's, most probably.
  The case that SCH is now the most powerful healing job is one that could be made quite easily between larger Cure III/IV, obscenely efficient Regen V spells, AoE Phalanx with /RDM, and even Embrava in situations where speed is important. And arguably for most stuff even just a Red Mage would suffice.
• Where is Paladin in all this?
  Curing almost as much as the rest, the main thing holding Paladin back now is a lack of cure potency gear. Regardless a Paladin should be able to pull more hate then before with cure spells due to the increased cure amounts.
• What gear should I be equipping now?
  If you are a White Mage, equip your AF3+2 pants. For maximum cures, the general rule of thumb will be Cure Potency > Healing Magic >>> MND >> VIT. Enmity down gear will probably help if you are bombing Cure III/IV, especially if you are a Scholar. A bit of Fast Cast and Haste will help recast timers as well.
• What should I be meriting now?
  Mind merits now suck for healing since you'll only be able to get +6 power with full Mind merits now. Meriting Healing Magic is actually a viable choice now, since +16 Healing Magic is +16 power.
• Will the update fix Cure VI?
  No. It broke it more. Cure VI sucks and anyone that thinks it makes any job more powerful doesn't understand basic game mechanics.

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Once again I will reiterate the need for feedback now more then ever. This is time to give opinions in force, and that's means you, the reader should take a gander at the charts and formulas and give an opinion! Don't disappoint us!

Should this be getting put into a thread in the Test Server Feedback forum? Or at least the Cure VI stuff?

I wish there was a PM function, but since there isn't:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Should this be getting put into a thread in the Test Server Feedback forum?

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I'm not completely sure but I think if grabbing the attention of the devs via the community reps is your intention then it would be a very good idea to start a thread there with your impressions of it with any relevant data.

I think the risk of splitting up discussion into several threads isn't remotely an issue compared to the benefits of getting people talking about this if a new thread in the test server subforum would do that.

Also, thanks for all the amazing formula work.

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(More stuff since I found something to add.)

I finally found some discussion in the JP forums today about this, apparently there was a little bit of testing (nothing like what we did though) a few people did that I managed to miss (which by the way is why we use Dev Tags people... or that's what I'd be telling them if I could understand Japanese).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tsubuanpan

回復魔法スキルについて。テストサーバーで学者さんしてきました。

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Google Translate

Healing magic skills. Mr. scholar has been on a test server.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seabura

遅いかもしれませんが… 回復魔法スキルの検証お疲れ様です！

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Google Translate

Cheers for good work magic skill verification of recovery may be slow ...!

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They have a small sample and some impressions in a Scholar thread as linked by the quotes. The discussion goes on but the machine translation isn't fully capable of deciphering it into readable English so I can only guess by the gist of it that they are talking about Scholar, enmity generation, and something about the heal amounts bringing back the days of meripo.

While it is heart warming to know there is someone talking about it, meripo is a very bad word here. :( By the way, if anyone knows Japanese and wants to help out, we could use the general impression our fellow players have, machine translations are horrible and we could use more opinions.

I think it would be a great idea to make a topic about Cure VI in the test server forum. It seems to be very frequently read by the Community Bros compared to all other forums and the spell is bad enough to essentially be the Ancient Magic of cures at this point. If nothing else, and I always expect nothing else, we might learn the thought process behind Cure VI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

While it is heart warming to know there is someone talking about it, meripo is a very bad word here.

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I've seen the phrase "meripo" in a relatively large number of posts while poking around the Japanese forums for Community Bros posts and I can never make out what anyone is going for with the expression. Based on what context I can make out, I think it's just that entire nation's term for "fighting a bunch of not terribly challenging yet not terribly easy monsters" or "I'm over level 75 and I'm fighting a monster, yosh!" or something.

However, I'm certainly no expert on matters that involve Japan but exclude such things as breaking through the heavens with one's drill or people being so dorky that their lives become a black comedy of loneliness.

I'd love to know what is actually meant by "meripo" just to satisfy my own curiosity, because it doesn't seem to be a reference to past situations given that I've seen the word used in the Prism Staff thread and other forward-thinking threads.

In other unproductive news, looking through that Scholar topic with Google translate makes my everything hurt. It's a generic topic about Scholar, so getting context is impossible and it feels like everyone is talking about five totally different PHONETICALLY WRITTEN Scholar abilities in every single post. I also get the general idea that most of them are wowed by the scope of the change, though, which I think is very similar to English community.

Some quick WHM gearset analysis
(I'll do some sch, rdm and pld later)

Now that the formula is knocked out, we can accurately figure out how well gearsets perform in relation to one another.

AF3+2 pants should be worn on always. The efficiency gained through their use effectively warrants a "best in slot" status.

I'm going to be using my basestats for the calculations. Consider the weakening of MND/VIT in the power formula other races shouldn't perform too differently.

440Skill
106MND
86 VIT
~(514 power)

Let's start with some Afflatus: Solace sets...

Here's a pretty good representation of the previous set we used to use at 99:

More power <------> More -ENM

http://i.imgur.com/0qPbS.jpg

50% Potency
+29 Skill +29 Skill
+65 MND +30 MND
+0 VIT +0 VIT
-0 ENM -31 ENM
(~61 power) (~44 power)

Cures:
1 - 94.5 93
2 - 207 205
3 - 471 465
4 - 885 874
5 - 1113 1105
6 - 1402 1386


http://i.imgur.com/xaAsh.jpg
Google-doc chat about best sets came up with this~

50% Potency
+65 Skill
+39 MND
+3 VIT
-6 ENM
(~84 power)

Cures:
1 - 96
2 - 208
3 - 477
4 - 898
5 - 1123
6 - 1423


Same as previous but switching fylgja+1/healing to colossus/orison

49% Potency
+66 skill |+69@lightsday
+37 MND
+3 VIT
-7 ENM
(~84 power | ~87@lightsday)

Cures:
1 - 95 96
2 - 207 208
3 - 473 475
4 - 892 894
5 - 1106 1117
6 - 1414 1416


http://i.imgur.com/hecJi.jpg
Similar to the first set, keeping augurs gloves and trying rubeus shoes

50% potency
+63 skill |+66@lightsday
+37 MND
+3 VIT
-3 ENM
(~81 power |84@lightsday)

Cures:
1 - 96 96
2 - 208 208
3 - 477 477
4 - 897 898
5 - 1122 1123
6 - 1420 1423

http://i.imgur.com/GWOJE.jpg
Attempted to keep healers mitts and rubeus on. Although, it works out at a similar power as above, but with only 48% potency, and thusly performs worse.


Tefnut/Genbu combos used to be pretty decent pre-change, post-change it perform worse than any of the sets you see above... I'll math em out if anyone specifically wishes.

Other things to consider:

Under the existing system there's no real benefit to casting in Orison body while under Afflatus Misery; you're better off with a +mnd body. In the new system you probably want to use the Orison body regardless. Curas/Curagas will still want the +mnd body, though, since they'll still use the existing formulas.

Tefnut Wand/Genbu's Shield combo still has the advantage of more easily capping cast time reduction. It's possible to hit 80% cure cast time reduction with augmented Genbu's Shield, AF3 neck/legs, Loquacious Earring, and various AH gear (HQ Kalasiris, Cure Clogs, ring, waist, ammo). Doable without Genbu's as well, with Aceso's Choker and the fast cast back piece, but seems easier to achieve with Genbu's (especially when you can start dropping small FC pieces as you account for subjob Fast Cast or Light Arts).

Tefnut is worth about half as much in contributing to the underlying cure value (old: ~6 HP on Cure V; new: ~3 HP on Cure V), but that difference is almost inconsequential. It's still a good piece, especially as an AH item.


Enmity.

Rough approximation (since Kaeko's tables don't go up to level 99), with 525 Power and 50% cure potency.

Cure 3: 305 * 1.5 = 457
Cure 4: 570 * 1.5 = 855
Cure 5: 727 * 1.5 = 1090

Cure 5 generates a flat 400 CE / 700 VE
Cure 4 generates about 510 CE / 1530 VE (would have been about 620 CE / 1860 VE at level 75)
Cure 3 generates about 270 CE / 810 VE

The difference in VE between Cure IV and Cure V will take an extra 14 seconds to decay. There's actually not much difference in the amount of CE generated, but -20 enmity would make them about equal. It would also drop VE by an extra 300, making the difference in decay time just 9 seconds.

If you had -12 enmity in your Cure V kit (Orison Cape/Earring/Fylgja Torque+1/Verse Strap+1), you'd want -30 enmity in your Cure IV kit to reach the same CE amount. That would give an 8 second difference in VE decay.

Of course Cure IV and Cure III have lower recast times than Cure V (8 and 6 seconds vs 10 seconds), which, combined with the lesser amount cured, means you'll probably be using them somewhat more often, so hate will likely build up a bit faster regardless.

In comparison, the 700 VE (616 with -12 enmity) of Cure V takes ~10 seconds to decay; with a 10 second recast (~8-9 seconds with Haste on), you'd have to be spamming it to have any net gain in total VE.


So, I'd probably aim for -25 enmity in my Cure III/IV kits. In addition to the -12 already in use:

Feet: Several options here.
Marduk: +10 mnd, -4 enmity
Teal: +6 mnd, -4 enmity
Relic+2: +8 mnd, -4 enmity
Aife's: -8 enmity
Blessed: +3 mnd, 2% haste, -4 enmity
Blessed+1: +4 mnd, 3% haste, -5 enmity

Can probably consider -4 enmity the baseline.

Leisure Musk, Metanoia Ring and Pythia Sash give another -12, for a total of -28 enmity at the cost of 13 mnd, which is all of like 2-3 HP cured.


Total enmity build-up.

Cure V (with -12 enmity) would take have to cure about 15k HP to reach 'significant' build up on CE (~5000 CE). However there would be no significant VE to go with it, so would still be fairly safe.

Cure IV (with -28 enmity) would reach 5000 CE with about 12k HP healed. If constantly spammed as fast as recasts allow (~100 seconds), that would have built up 10000 VE to go along with it. That capped VE would take about 3 minutes to decay. So, if all the curing was spread out over about 5 minutes, there would be no significant VE buildup, and it would be as safe as using Cure V. However if it was done in 2 minutes, the healer could be reaching notable hate problems.

Cure IV with the default gear set (-12 enmity), would reach 5000 CE with about 10k HP healed, and would reach that in ~80 seconds if spamming. They would also be at cap VE by that point (~5000 CE + 10000 VE), meaning they'd be running into hate issues far more easily.

Additional note on efficiency: Cures 3 and 4 gain more efficiency from cure potency than cure 5, which gains more than cure 6. So on the charts I posted on the last page, the closer to the top of the chart, the faster it improves as you add cure potency (leaving Cure 6 even further behind, relatively speaking).

One important thing to keep in mind is that Cure V is still pretty much Cure V. Cure IV has gotten way better rather than Cure V becoming notably worse.

In situations where Enmity is an imminent concern, a bro using mostly Cure V isn't much more likely run out of MP after the changes than before. Situations that go bad due to post-change Cure V expending too much MP would have been very tense already. There's simply the new option of using an extremely MP-efficient cure instead of an extremely Enmity-efficiency cure.

Overall, I really like the implications of these changes.

Equipment will matter more now than ever, whether it's Healing Magic skill for power or -Enmity for not being eaten. There will be strategic elements in deciding which Cure to cast that weren't present before. A lot of equipment that was almost pointless before, such as Sirona's Ring and the Healing Magic skill grip, will have a reason to exist. Healing Magic skill merits will mean something other than "This person, this person is not a smart person."

One thing that really surprises me is that it appears people subbing White Mage or Red Mage will have very slightly stronger cures than before, particularly if they go the extra mile and macro in the few Healing Magic skill pieces that don't compete with Cure Potency slots to get the most mileage out of their sub-jobs.

It must have taken the Development Bro who passionately loves bad things longer than he expected to make Cure VI even worse, perhaps because it was already pretty bad, since everything else seems to be improved or relatively unchanged.

So basically use Cure V whenever possible and Cure IV as a resort to prevent hate build up.

SCH and RDM could main heal a party but hate problems will be created.

Basically kill it before hate becomes an issue.

Changes have been pretty good, but other than fixing Cure VI (seriously, SE... Give it a purpose that is not sucking!), I think they could revise the static enmity values of Cure V. At 75, the enmity difference against Cure IV was more noticeable, and now that Cure IV is much more MP efficient, Cure V could use a slight improvement in the enmity department.

BTW, has anyone tested if this changes affect the WHM and RDM PUP automatons? RDM auto could become really interesting with boosted Cure IVs, and the tendency of spamming Cure VI of WHM automaton could be more annoying now, haha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TimeMage

BTW, has anyone tested if this changes affect the WHM and RDM PUP automatons? RDM auto could become really interesting with boosted Cure IVs, and the tendency of spamming Cure VI of WHM automaton could be more annoying now, haha.

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Eco's been asking me to check the values on this, cura, curaga and BLU cures, but I can't say I've had a moment free to test it...

I'd hazard a guess and assume that they're using the new formula, otherwise they would have included it in the bolded part below:

Reference quote:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Cure Potency
Cure potency will be affected more significantly by healing magic skill. If a player has high healing magic skill, cure potency will be greatly increased, but low healing magic skill will have almost no effect on cure potency. The effect of skill level on cure potency will vary based on the type of cure, but cures lower than Cure V will be affected the most. Note that Curaga, Cura and Waltzes will not be affected.

• Cure I-IV: Up to 1.4 times the normal cure potency
• Cure V-VI: Almost no change

With this adjustment combined with the increase of cure potency mentioned earlier, we would like to increase opportunities for mages jobs other than white mage to serve as healers.[/LIST]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Eco's been asking me to check the values on this, cura, curaga and BLU cures, but I can't say I've had a moment free to test it...

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They also said there is no change to Blue Magic and I believe somewhere they even said no change to automatons (I wouldn't give my guarantee that I actually saw that one however). On most of those I just want a test to be absolutely sure, but it would probably just be a waste of your time sadly.

If anyone wants to test, it would be fairly simple though, just test a Cura (under Afflatus Solace or no WHM job ability to be sure) and a Curaga, both on and off the test server, with the same setup (it is very unlikely that both will be the same if they've been changed). If they do what SE says it should be the same in both cases, which is the result I'd expect. Same with Blue Magic, just pick a spell, BLU/RDM it up, test on and off the test server.

It is gonna be strange having to gear MND for AoE cures while gearing Healing Magic for single target ones, even stranger then Cure V not being the most MP efficient cure on the block.

I recall someone saying that Camate posted it, but I'm unable to find it... maybe you'll have more luck ?

Should be easy to test (BLU cures), I doubt the constant has changed from the old formula...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aleste

I recall someone saying that Camate posted it, but I'm unable to find it... maybe you'll have more luck ?

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I did, and I was about to edit my previous post, but I'll just add it here instead. Spoiler'd is the whole thing, I've also taken the important parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Howdy!

Here are some responses from the development team to questions regarding the cure potency adjustments.

Quote:

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Was receiving benefits from stacking MND put off?

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After looking into various possibilities such a MND and healing magic skill itself, we decided to go with adjustments to healing magic skill after considering the benefits this would give to jobs that possess this skill. MND affects cure potency more than in the past and the effect will remain as it is.

Quote:

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Will there be any changes to the success rate of removing Death?

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With the current system, the higher the healing magic skill, the higher the success rate will be. However, to balance this with the rate of success of Holy Water, there is no 100% success rate even if your skill is very high.

Quote:

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Will the values of blue magic-type healing spells also be increased?

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Since the main focus of this adjustment is for Cure–Cure VI, there will be no changes to blue magic spell’s cure potency.

Quote:

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With this adjustment, when using Cure IV with +50% cure potency, you can cure for around 850 HP, so it would be really nice if you could lower the amount of enmity gained after curing.

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Since a fundamental rule of battle is that enmity increases as the amount of HP you restore increases, after considering the relationship of Cure V and Cure VI, this rule is being maintained. It would be best to mitigate this increase with Tranquil Heart and equipment that decreases enmity.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Quote:

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Will the values of blue magic-type healing spells also be increased?

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Since the main focus of this adjustment is for Cure–Cure VI, there will be no changes to blue magic spell’s cure potency.

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So here is the bit about Blue Magic. I honestly can't find the automaton thing but I really thought I saw it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Quote:

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Was receiving benefits from stacking MND put off?

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After looking into various possibilities such a MND and healing magic skill itself, we decided to go with adjustments to healing magic skill after considering the benefits this would give to jobs that possess this skill. MND affects cure potency more than in the past and the effect will remain as it is.

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I had forgotten I had seen this. To clarify, here is the part that bugs me:

Quote:

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MND affects cure potency more than in the past

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That part caught my attention when it was first posted, because I couldn't figure out when "the past" was referring to.

He mentioned that MND was not being adjusted but then said it had more of an effect than in the past, implying there was a time when MND had even less of an effect on Cures than it has at this very moment. I assume it is either a reference to an extremely old update that I can not even remember, or the vaguest and most unclear reference ever to Cure V becoming much more prevalent as players have gone from 75 to 99.

There was a big update to the Cure line back in 2003, but the update notes don't mention MND. Maybe it was later than that if it existed at all? I no longer expect what the Community Bros say or what the Development Bros do to make sense, so I didn't look too hard.

Yep he's referring to the old cure update in either or 03 or 04. It's the one where they lifted the hardcaps on cures. You can add more MND and it would give you slightly more cure amount.

I'm interested to see what happens to BLU magic, it used the Cure V formula just less base cure amount. They said they have no plans to change Blue cure magic, yet I wonder how they go translated to their actual coders.

Efficiency numbers worry me... I don't feel that it's progressing the way it should...

Cure1 : 4.57 -> 31.33 -> 42.00
Cure2 : 3.43 -> 18.82 -> 25.36
Cure3 : 3.58 -> 26.00 -> 35.06
Cure4 : 3.89 -> 24.42 -> 32.94
Cure5 : 3.20 -> 16.79 -> 22.65
Cure6 : 1.96 -> 10.32 - >13.28
[ Cureskin/MP -> Cure/MP -> Cure+Cureskin/MP ]
[ 99WHM/SCH, Light arts, AF3 body/legs, Solace ]

Overall I feel that Cure6 is pretty useless now and isn't worth casting (less-so with the bolster to cure3/4s strength) when compared against the MP cost.

EDIT:: There's a thought, I wonder how it compares against those Regen numbers I ran ages ago.

Regen 3 (gear, merits - 700hp) 10.93 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, merits - 975hp) 11.98 HP/MP

Regens might be slightly better now with the AF2+2 body's new boost (assuming you didn't account for that), but not by much. But really, what White Mage in their right mind merits regen or carries around regen gear when the boosts are so small and the opportunity costs are so high?

That said Scholar's regen spells boosted with strats even make a White Mage with great gear have their cure spells look inefficient by a wide margin. I think I would have a very hard time ranking who is the better healer after these changes - and any situation where you need more nuking support occasionally or anything where 2hour abilities are concerned is a straight up win for Scholar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Overall I feel that Cure6 is pretty useless now and isn't worth casting (less-so with the bolster to cure3/4s strength) when compared against the MP cost.

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This is definitely a problem. We're not exactly asking for Cure VI to cure more, it just costs too much and this has been a problem since before the changes were even put up for testing.

There are a myriad of ways to fix Cure VI that I've thought of just brainstorming with other White Mages like Aleste, but the simplest and easiest one is just to cut the MP cost. Even if Cure V/VI are fated to eat more MP then Cure I-IV I still feel that Cure VI costs too much, even for an "emergency" cure.

By the way, if decreasing the MP cost isn't on the table, I figured I'd list some of the ideas that have been thrown out about Cure VI, any one of these implemented would be an improvement:

• Largely increased Cureskin
  Perhaps a 50% cureskin effect that scales to 100% with the AF3+2 body (with no cap obviously)?
• Enhanced Cureskin
  Cureskin takes reduced damage as if the target had a ton of defense and magic defense.
• Reduces enmity when cast
  Literally lowers the enmity on the White Mage when this spell is cast. Optionally it could also add that enmity to the target.
• Lowered cast/recast time
  It costs a ton but has a near-instant cast time, or no recast time.
• Provides a buff tied to cureskin
  Like Plenilune Embrace it could buff the target with enhanced stats while the cureskin is still on the target.
• Increases Cure Potency Received on target
  A short duration buff to cure potency received on the target depending on HP cured. It could either last for multiple cures or just the next one.
• Enhanced Afflatus Solace charge rate for Holy
  Single Cure VI casting curing for maximum HP could fill the charge to full.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

• Enhanced Cureskin
  Cureskin takes reduced damage as if the target had a ton of defense and magic defense.

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I like this one, the rest are either weird for a cure spell or OP, maybe even a -25% DT trait for the duration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

[*]Enhanced Cureskin
Cureskin takes reduced damage as if the target had a ton of defense and magic defense.

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I'd love a buff like this for Cure VI. Things are presumably very bad already if somebody is opting to use the post-change Cure VI, so a strong defensive buff would be very helpful in that kind of situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I like this one, the rest are either weird for a cure spell or OP, maybe even a -25% DT trait for the duration.

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I know the list was kinda weird in general because most of it was just brainstormed ideas without any real filter, although I'll contend that none of the concepts are overpowered (the bolded part) and the potentially imbalancing part would be how they are implemented.

For example, the first one listed had a suggestion of how underneath it that was up to a 100% cureskin effect - Cure VI is so inefficient that such an effect would only make the spell's efficiency including cureskin to be close to matching Cure V's efficiency including cureskin - the question becomes if about 1000~1500 more health for a few seconds to absorb a big move is overpowered.

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I didn't want to rank them by usefulness at all since I was just throwing them out but I too would personally favor a Cure VI specific buff to the cureskin that is ideally defensive in nature and wears off when the cureskin gets eaten - something strong enough to make Cure VI worthy of its tier and MP cost while not being something you'd want or need to spam constantly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

We're not exactly asking for Cure VI to cure more, it just costs too much and this has been a problem since before the changes were even put up for testing.

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I think we need a DEV Beacon for this one.. it was bad before, and now it's even worse...


Although, as far as the rest of it is concerned I think I'm content with Cure4 being more MP efficient than Cure 5 purely because of the enmity associated with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NOC_EU

• [dev1094] Cure Spell Adjustments
  At high skill levels, Cure spells now heal more HP than before, while low skill levels see minimal benefit. The degree to which Healing Magic skill affects HP healed varies by spell, with Cure I-IV seeing the most significant adjustments.
  • Cure I-IV: Amount of HP recovered may increase by as much as 1.4 times.
  • Cure V-VI: Minimal adjustments.
    *Curaga I-V and Cura I-III will remain unchanged.

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Okay so this update is now live (and hopefully we'll actually discuss what this means now that people have no choice but to test it for themselves).

Once again I'll hold onto my thoughts since we only have a few regulars actually posting theirs here until we get more input on the matter, but I only have negative things to say about the way people treat support roles in general if we don't get an active discussion from more people then the handful that have been posting on the implications of this change now that it is actually going live.

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Anyways, for those who are just showing up thinking "WTF my cures have changed" here is the new formula and the power numbers:

http://i.imgur.com/afCa8.gif


Power numbers.

Looks like this just puts even more weight into /SCH for jobs like SMN and BRD if they don't need to cast na spells or haste.
Probably looking at ~200 power from /whm which gives a 400~ cure 4. /SCH should reach closer to 500 power giving a cure 3 for over 300.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Looks like this just puts even more weight into /SCH for jobs like SMN and BRD if they don't need to cast na spells or haste.
Probably looking at ~200 power from /whm which gives a 400~ cure 4. /SCH should reach closer to 500 power giving a cure 3 for over 300.

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/SCH only has Cure III, Cure IV even subjob WHM or RDM still heals more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

/SCH only has Cure III, Cure IV even subjob WHM or RDM still heals more.

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But is a lot less MP efficient, for the few places where that still matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

But is a lot less MP efficient, for the few places where that still matters.

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Perhaps, but if you're getting hit enough that you need to cure yourself Cure III wont save you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Perhaps, but if you're getting hit enough that you need to cure yourself Cure III wont save you.

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SMN, BRD or BLM subbing SCH can all cap Cure potency, giving a 450 HP cure 3 for 42 MP. That's a decent chunk of HP for very little MP. Great for a little backup healing to take some stress off the WHM, and give you something to do between BPs or Songs. I don't imagine most BLMs ever going for this, but it's an option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

SMN, BRD or BLM subbing SCH

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I'd say you'd have to look at all the benefits. Cure IV is a large benefit even if your Cure III suffers as a result, so you'd really want to be sure you are getting enough healing out with just Cure III. You also have to look at other boosts you get, such as Haste, or Fast Cast.

Bard would probably benefit more from having access to Haste and Fast Cast or Haste and Stona then it would from weather spells and arts. Other jobs have more situational decisions to make. Summoner for example will probably find situations where Cure III with Light Arts is more then enough when combined with weather spells to proc their gear, such as Sandstorm for boots for speed or weather spells for AF3+2 gloves to significantly reduce MP costs.

Black Mage has a pretty hard choice between Red Mage and Scholar as well, since both have extreme MP efficiency (people really forget that SCH with Arts and strats can make you as much MP as a Convert can, and Sublimation is as useful as Refresh) which will make it depend more on the situation and what benefits from each job you end up using. Red Mage has some nice benefits with easier spell access (no Arts switching neccisary), some Magic Defense Bonus, Cure IV, and Haste (which ultimately makes it better for a self-sustained Stun recast), but Scholar has its own tools, such as Arts skill boosts, strats, and most of all, weather spells. Black Mage's subjob choices aren't as cut and dry as that of a White Mage's in this regard (where Red Mage is inferior and only even gets a consideration because of Refresh and Convert, which barely equate to Scholar's MP longevity to the point where if one was slightly nerfed in any way then Red Mage wouldn't even be an option due to significant MP inferiority - truly those who call for nerfs of /RDM in regards to White Mage are fools who don't understand the game).

I think the change just makes /SCH more viable for situations when you need its weather spells but you might consider light healing important (and of course makes /SCH even better for skill deficient White Mages while still being the best sub for skill capped White Mages too).