Bully: it's really bad.

I have so much angry crap to say about this I don't even know where to start. Screw it.

Everyone needs to play Samurai and Blue Mage.

You forgot warrior and WHM.

Thf need flee2 not bully lol

We need TH4 that gives a .5% increase to a 1% drop! That makes up for the 1/3 DD output and lack of utility.

Does anyone think its funny that even though at the top of thief discussion there is a thread with testing showing that Treasure hunter 2 + probably doesn't do shit..... and another thread all about how Thief knife Sucks and people want a better damage dagger, or to get rid of it entirely......

The reps only seem to respond with answers to questions that nobody in here even asked about crappy ass job abilities that everyone pretty much agrees aren't good?

Who the hell asked for more treasure hunter procs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Does anyone think its funny that even though at the top of thief discussion there is a thread with testing showing that Treasure hunter 2 + probably doesn't do shit..... and another thread all about how Thief knife Sucks and people want a better damage dagger, or to get rid of it entirely......

The reps only seem to respond with answers to questions that nobody in here even asked about crappy ass job abilities that everyone pretty much agrees aren't good?

Who the hell asked for more treasure hunter procs?

---

The JP thfs, probably. I know that everything they've decided to give pup this update is based on what the JP pups want, and only what the JP pups want (pet Subtle Blow and overload that doesn't actually happen), as opposed to what the english speaking pups want (useful shit, like fixing the whm puppet's retarded AI). Someone who can read/translate Japanese could check the JP thf forum to be sure, but I'm pretty certain this is the cause. (I feel for you guys, Pup's been the playerbase's buttmonkey for ages, so I can empathize with thf being the dev team's buttmonkey)

They probably aren't responding to that because TH does work and there is no bug or issue with it at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

They probably aren't responding to that because TH does work and there is no bug or issue with it at all.

---

Prove it.

...oh wait.

Debbie just trolls threads. Move along. Nothing to see here.


I wish Google translate worked well enough to post on there. I noticed that Wyvern JA got boosted even though all the English forums thought it was freaking amazing all ready. I went on the JP forums and sure enough, they were all complaining that it was weak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Debbie just trolls threads. Move along. Nothing to see here.


I wish Google translate worked well enough to post on there. I noticed that Wyvern JA got boosted even though all the English forums thought it was freaking amazing all ready. I went on the JP forums and sure enough, they were all complaining that it was weak.

---

Someone's THF mule wasn't proccing enough, probably. :(
Sad that up to level95 the ultimate THF accomplishment is full-timing Thief Knife, Assassin's Armlet's and Raider's Poulaines +2. Vajra does not matter, Mandau does not matter, Twashtar does not matter. If you're not using Thief Knife in events you'll be called gimp, idiot and bastard.

And even then a WHM/THF sporting a Taruratu Sash is more relevant than you, since TH3 is as good as it gets for droprates + they can still cure/haste/erase. Not even /thf is needed for Voidwatch, Burning Circle battles, WoE, a lot of Abyssea etc.

Any strategic utility that might've come out of Bully (aka Animated Flourish v2 - it has the same enmity generation and roughly same range, apparently) was thrown out of the window as soon as Treasure Hunter proc rate was put in the mix. You will full time the Bully recast timer for TH procs, because that's all that's left for THF to do. If mages pull hate, you'll have nothing to help them. By the time you run up to mages (IF they are in the same party), target them with Collaborator/Accomplice, they've either used Enmity Douse already or taken enough damage to lose hate anyway (or tanks have done their job and took the situation under control again).

The FFXI Dev team only listens to japanese players? Wow, that's surprising. Oh wait, concidering every Q&A post by a forum rep is in response to questions by Japanese players translated into english. Rangers complaining about blast shot being a melee WS? Are you fucking kidding me?

It's an absolute joke. It's fucking appaling that FFXI's dev team only listens to feed back from one nationality of players. And what's worse is there is not enough complaining from the other nationalities about it. There needs to be a fucking crusade from english, french, german, american, italian, australasion, finnish and every other nationality that basically says FUCKING LISTEN TO US TOO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

The FFXI Dev team only listens to japanese players? Wow, that's surprising. Oh wait, concidering every Q&A post by a forum rep is in response to questions by Japanese players translated into english. Rangers complaining about blast shot being a melee WS? Are you fucking kidding me?

It's an absolute joke. It's fucking appaling that FFXI's dev team only listens to feed back from one nationality of players. And what's worse is there is not enough complaining from the other nationalities about it. There needs to be a fucking crusade from english, french, german, american, italian, australasion, finnish and every other nationality that basically says FUCKING LISTEN TO US TOO.

---

someone could always be ballsy and go post in the JP feedback forums in some language other than english, stating that "Hey, I know we're not japanese, but we play FFXI and we have opinions and feedback, too"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bayohne

However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear!

---

I don't understand. How could the activation rate possibly be lowered? Now instead of activating 0-2 times every five minutes, it'll activate 0-1 time every three minutes? How does anyone think this JA is remotely useful?

Honestly were people really expecting a godly ability that would allow for a high intimidation rate? Get real lol the concept to make an intimidation ability is really a hit or miss where it's very luck based. If anything it should be a COR JA rather then a THF one.

What if since THF is so caught up on it's TH effect, why not make an ability that increase it's dmg based on the lv of TH on the mob?

"Hunter's Instinct" -Increases damage based on current TH on the mob-
duration 30 second
recast 5 mins
TH=1(2% increase in damage)
TH=10(20% increase in damage)

As for Bully, think of the term Bully, to pick on make fun of and such. So what if instead of an intimidation rate it took hate from all in the part and added it to itself. Then for the 30-45 second duration their attack increases based on the amount of enmity they drained. In this essence the more in party the stronger the ability which would encourage them for team play but at the same time the hate drained is dependent on how much enmity person is putting in.

"Bully" -AoE absorb hate from others to increase att-
Duration 45 seconds
recast 5 mins.

------
But see if you think about it, while people are so focused with how they only seem to be a TH, why don't we consider abilities that work while TH is active on a mob. Heck there are some mobs where TH is pointless so what about JA that lower TH on a mob to perform special tricks. Like in a BCNM, could have a move that lowers TH rate by 1 to increase crit rate against the mob. The TH decay moves would basically be enfeebles you can inflict on the mob, however if you did want some form of balance you could have the % of it working be based on dagger skill, agility and intelligence or something.

I don't play THF but judging from what people are saying I"m pretty confident they would want the above rather then something that gives them the chance to omit one attack phase in a 30 second period.

Really good ideas. My favorite is Lowering Treasure Hunter by 1-2 To perform special things, It not only gives a middle finger to TH (a positive in my book) but it'd help the THF DD, and especially help them in fights where TH Doesn't mean jack! (like Treasure in every fight in the game when its past level 2 :D!!!!)

On a side note

Quote:

---

Honestly were people really expecting

---

We were expecting it to be shit, but not this shit. Look around about the time it was announced, We all Knew it would be utter crap, We were just hoping it wasn't A-Grade Utter crap. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

Honestly were people really expecting a godly ability that would allow for a high intimidation rate?

---

I wasn't expecting something that didn't work, then nerfed to work less.

It may have been nerfed to work less, but at least it can not work more often!

First I get the middle finger called
"Despoil", now I get "Bully". Fuck you SE. :C

[QUOTE=However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear![/QUOTE]

O great so they lowered the timer and just made it crap instead, another complete waste of time

So let us take a tally yes?

We have 2 Stealing abilities with long recast times, with nothing exciting or interesting steal that we cannot get using TH or people /THF can get with little effort.

Steal augmented by merits has a chance, yes chance even at full merits, to steal buff from an enemy. It requires Steal to be unsuccessful , there are many buffs we cannot steal, it does not work on many of the more interesting mobs, it shares a timer with Despoil

Despoil, has a seperate pool of items, and has a chance to debuff an enemy. It chooses the debuff for us based on the mob and item stolen, does not always succeed, requires a 5 minute wait to try again, shares a timer with Steal.

The 2 Steal abilities, SE has said, will not be upgraded with better pools because they do not want THF to have control over a part of the in-game economy. They believe it is unfair for us to make a large profit for an ability, though they continue to upgrade TH and no one is banned from also leveling the job.

Aura Steal will not be changed because they believe the ability would be over powered on a separate timer. However many jobs have the ability to dispel buffs on an enemy with a shorter timer that is independent of a another JA or spell, many of the stealable buffs, outside of duration, can be cast on us by party members, SE has complete control over what we can and cannot dispel already so continuing to do so would not really be an issue to make it not OP. They are also giving the same ability to DRK as a spell, meaning it cannot possibly be OP if another job gets the same ability, unmerited and untied to another ability or spell.

Outside of this we "get" Bully....while the concept is interesting, AoE party intimidate, the duration and proc rate is too low to be useful. It also has a high recast time at the original and new timers for something with such a time to work its magic. The idea that the timer cannot be lowered without lowering the potency is also just silly. We now have a shorter timer for less of a chance of it working?

We have been asking for a long time for better and more interesting abilities outside of TH: simple things like shorter Steal/Despoil timers, separate timers on those JA's, a more interesting/profitable steal pool so we have a reason to use the JA that helps define our class which is to get items and make profit, many of us have said we are fine with lowered TH in an exchange for more DD capability or some other skill to augment our role. It seems you refuse to listen to the rather simple and very loud requests, These have not been happening just recently on these forums, but for years on many other gaming sites. Why are you not listening?

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

---

Did you notice that the potency decrease was lowered with more party members? That was the trade off...less intimidate for the ability to add more TH, which nobody asked for, and lowered recast. The last part was the only thing people really wanted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reaux

Did you notice that the potency decrease was lowered with more party members? That was the trade off...less intimidate for the ability to add more TH, which nobody asked for, and lowered recast. The last part was the only thing people really wanted.

---

I think you mean to say that the overall potency was decreased in order to balance a lower recast. The potency still increases in proportion to the number of people with incurred enmity both inside and outside the party/alliance, though likely at a reduced rate as well. Karbuncle already outlined this with his "fake numbers" here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xanthe

I think you mean to say that the overall potency was decreased in order to balance a lower recast. The potency still increases in proportion to the number of people with incurred enmity both inside and outside the party/alliance, though likely at a reduced rate as well. Karbuncle already outlined this with his "fake numbers" here.

---

Somehow I see this not being used. Any time where the group is big enough for this to be useful (if it even gets good in big groups.) is going to against a monster that you don't want the thief spamming a ghetto provoke on in between sneak attacks and trick attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

---

Even in best cast scenario before, if it was as effective as a potent RDM paralyze with 18+ people (which it isn't, especially on HNM style monsters where the intimidation rate was even lower), 30 sceonds duration with a long recast is too short a window of opportunity to be made useful.

I'm not on the test server to try anything out but I get the feeling that people are misinterpreting what SE is saying when they say the rate of intimidation increases with the number of party members. Especially when coupled with Camate's confusing post "However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle".

I believe the intimidation effect did not change with the number of party members. It is simply that each party member has an equal chance to intimidate the mob. Therefore, the net effect is a higher overall rate of intimidation with higher numbers of party members. If a single player has x% chance to intimidate, then each party member also has an x% chance to intimidate. This is why the effect seems so lame when tested by single thfs. It was probably linear - each additional member had exactly the same chance to intimidate. Adding 1 member added an additional x% net intimidation rate.

Now with the lowered recast, the effect for additional party members is no longer linear. Where before, each player had a x% chance of intimidation, it is probably now x% only for single member party, and lowered % of intimidation for each additional member. For example, with 2 members, it might be 0.8*x (for each person). For 3 members, it might be 0.8*0.8*x% and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokithor

I'm not on the test server to try anything out but I get the feeling that people are misinterpreting what SE is saying when they say the rate of intimidation increases with the number of party members.

---

I don't think anyone is misinterpreting that.

IE: The the base rate effect was only stonger in a group becuase there were more people there to have a chance at intimidating.

They have, in fact, now lowered that chance to intimidate (which was already pretty low for NMs...the only place you'd really need/want somrthing like this) in correlation to the number of people present in order to justify (to themselves) lowering the recast to 3 minutes (which is still too long for a 30 second ability).

So the effect itself, still has an opportunity wondow that is much to short, and is now weaker than it was before we were complaining about it.

See the problem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

I don't think anyone is misinterpreting that.

---

Thank you for your insightful contribution to my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokithor

Thank you for your insightful contribution to my post.

---

You are most welcome :D. Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

You are most welcome :D. Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread!

---

Ninja edits!! Your edits now add to the discussion.;)

Regardless of how the effect works, the whole Bully JA is definitely in the "Wot?" category.

In particular, adding a TH effect to the newly nerfed Bully really shows that SE doesn't get it. Thfs don't want to be just TH whores. LS Thfs will now be required to always ride the Bully timer to pump up the placebo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokithor

Ninja edits!! Your edits now add to the discussion.;)

Regardless of how the effect works, the whole Bully JA is definitely in the "Wot?" category.

In particular, adding a TH effect to the newly nerfed Bully really shows that SE doesn't get it. Thfs don't want to be just TH whores. LS Thfs will now be required to always ride the Bully timer to pump up the placebo.

---

I'm actually all for more ways to actively increase treasure hunter, and to somehow make that tied to active melee combat. I like that they added this to Bully, but we'll have to test it to see if it is a meaningful increased chance. (but yeah this is also kind of "meh" because the effects of "Increased Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level" seem to be very minescule.)

I like ideas that I see flowing around about a Damage boost being tied to TH level...

I would take that a step further with an increase of the chance to raise treasure hunter effectiveness level based on the level of damage the THF does. Lower Damage = less chance, Better damage = increased chance.

This way, better Thieves with better weapons (relics/empyreans etc), gear and a greater understanding of their melee aspect will be, in fact, better at iraising Treasure Hunter effectiveness than a THF mule with 3 pieces of gear...The Best DD THF, THE best Geared THF , THE most skilled THF would be one in the same with the best Treasure Hunter THF.

...Add to that a damage bonus for the THF based on the current Treasure Hunter level = TH whore job fixed.

You could do all sorts of things with our current abilities to compliment this as well:

Steal: Instead of stealing crap items, raisesTreasure Hunter effectiveness level by one
Mug: Instead of stealing gil, raises Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level by 2.
Bully: Increases the chances of raising the Treasure Hunter effectivenes level.
Perfect Dodge: Grants an increased chance to raise treasure hunter effectiveness level and grants a greater damage boost based on Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level.

etc etc....you wouldn't even need to lower their recast timers.

...All of a sudden every THF ability has synergy with its core functions.

If the Dev team wants to give us skills to make us more marketable for large groups, then great; the gaming mechanic to where we actually fit in or become marketable to alliance pt mechanic is the questionable side of all of this myriad of dilemma...if we're supposed to be managing enmity, increasing drops, and doing spike damage, the bridge to get there has been burnt more than once.

So Bully sucks in what its supposed to do. Look at the bright side: 8 years later, thf has a native claiming JA, good enough for me :)

theres probably going to be gear that "augments" bully as well.

Has anyone else noticed a difference in Treasure Hunter Procs under bully? I haven't noticed a difference at all...as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get TH to proc under bully yet at all....but then again the effect only last a very short duration sooo...yeah.

It does not appear to be any sort of meaningful increase that would even do anything in 30 seconds or less.

Hey, Airget's idea on page 10 is pretty good. He might be onto something!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mefuki

Hey, Airget's idea on page 10 is pretty good. He might be onto something!

---

Thief's Wife would never allow such a thing. :(

Make the intimidation of Bully powerful in a large group, remove the TH bonus upgrades, keep the timer at 3 minutes.
THAT would have been a useful ability. You pop it on dangerous HNM 2HRs like 100 Fists or Chainspell.

SE have once again showed they have absolutely no idea what they want thief to do. They need to make up their fucking minds.

Bully was intended to be a JA that intimidates the enemy, to follow the debuffing aspect of their thief job vision. But then they went and added an increased TH effect to it. It will no longer be used as a debuffing ability but as a means to increase TH. Well done.

Seriously, the japanese thief forum must just only be saying "we don't care about anything other than TH. give us more ways to increase TH". Well I think it's about time SE stopped only listening to ONE PART OF THE PLAYERBASE. How in god's name can they justify only taking feedback from japanese players whilst completely ignoring European, North American, Australasian and any other nationailty? It's absolutely fucking appaling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

Make the intimidation of Bully powerful in a large group, remove the TH bonus upgrades, keep the timer at 3 minutes.
THAT would have been a useful ability. You pop it on dangerous HNM 2HRs like 100 Fists or Chainspell.

SE have once again showed they have absolutely no idea what they want thief to do. They need to make up their fucking minds.

Bully was intended to be a JA that intimidates the enemy, to follow the debuffing aspect of their thief job vision. But then they went and added an increased TH effect to it. It will no longer be used as a debuffing ability but as a means to increase TH. Well done.

Seriously, the japanese thief forum must just only be saying "we don't care about anything other than TH. give us more ways to increase TH". Well I think it's about time SE stopped only listening to ONE PART OF THE PLAYERBASE. How in god's name can they justify only taking feedback from japanese players whilst completely ignoring European, North American, Australasian and any other nationailty? It's absolutely fucking appaling.

---

I don't think this is true at all, every JP player I've encountered has said cor is "ROLL JOB ONLY" yet they keep buffing COr's DD. I also don't know of any JP RDM's who even think of meleeing or any JP player who has ever considered RDM a melee job at all, yet they're buffing RDM melee.

Thats because they placed X jobs to Y nationalities:
RDM falls under NA feedback, THF falls under JP feedback.