dev1024 - healing magic

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Originally Posted by Reaux

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

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You have never played either SCH nor RDM before have you? There are so many inaccuracies in this post.

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

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What should a Light Arts SCH be doing if they aren't healing?

All of our so-called support capability was given away to everyone via subbable Accession. WHM/SCH or RDM/SCH can both do AoE stoneskin (or hell, even WAR/SCH can do that!), RDM/SCH can do aoe phalanx, COR now gets TWO different, AND MORE POTENT regains.

Let's not forget that SCH isn't even the most MP efficient healer anymore. WHM/SCH has all of the mp tools that SCH main does (light arts, conserve mp, penury, sublimation) IN ADDITION TO pants which give you MP back for curing! Add on to that capped cure potency and cureskin and it's not even a contest. Only thing that would make WHM even better would be if they could Convert on top of all that.

Giving SCH or RDM a new cure (doesn't have to be cure5) isn't going to obsolete WHM AT ALL. WHM is still going to be far and away the best healer in the game.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional at best.

Dont get me wrong, i dont exactly wanna be looked to as a healer on rdm and sch all the time, would i mind having a bit more cure potency gear or another spell to utilize to heal? sure, ive often considered /blu to see if i get some other worth-while healing spell, but i tell ya, i am THRILLED when someone asks me to come something other than whm, blm, or nin to ANYTHING these days, my smn is all but retired, my rdm is shelfed, my drk is only pulled out occasionally, and my rng if theres no thf and th is needed, and even my new sch is only occasionally pulled out to cap azure in party settings. Do i -want- cure V? Tough call, do i want more healing power? you better believe it, but my stance still stands that rdm/sch getting cure V (while uncreative, again can only make up so many things before you're grasping at straws) wouldnt break whm, it just would mean some players wouldnt HAVE to level whm to offer decent/sufficient healing in certain environments.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

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I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Currently there is not, and I hear a lot of people saying they think that's perfectly fine, or that we should just duct tape a bunch of support jobs together and pretend they'll work the same as a White Mage. That strikes me as bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

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you rly not know what the rdms want to say; is it fair that melee dd have cure4 with dnc sub, is it fair that blu have cure5? and rly why the whm have so much panic for a rdm with cure5?

And for the mom for what you need a rdm now.... much other jobs better.
cure5 can help rdm a bit better as secondhealer.

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Originally Posted by Lilia

you rly not know what the rdms want to say; is it fair that melee dd have cure4 with dnc sub, is it fair that blu have cure5? and rly why the whm have so much panic for a rdm with cure5?

And for the mom for what you need a rdm now.... much other jobs better.
cure5 can help rdm a bit better as secondhealer.

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I quoted that, but I'm not sure what it says. I am sure that this person just wants to justify coming to a party as a red mage instead of a white mage.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

make is so whms can't cast refresh and convert, give me an enfeeble worth casting and I won't ask for cure V.

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WE HAVE ADDLE... oh wait :(

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Originally Posted by Lilia

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

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How did your whole party get into red?

draw in , good aoe, or bad whms or whm is dead, away....

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Originally Posted by Reaux

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

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I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

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Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

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This is some very shaky reasoning. Red Mage can still solo a ton of stuff without Cure V and could probably solo nearly as many things as it does now even if Cure IV was taken away as well. There are much more effective roadblocks to RDM soloing that SE can and does make use of.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

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Unless Red Mage or Scholar can somehow solo and heal a group the same time, I don't see how one affects the balance of the other. Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

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Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

Edit: I don't actually care about Cure V when discussing whether or not Red Mage should get Cure V, was just pointing this out. I'm sure I could probably think of more ways that a large cure spell would make a Red Mage solo way less risky or even possible, but I'm hoping this point gets the thought across.

For me, i dont need cure 5 for solo, but cure 5 can help heal the party.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.



Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

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I would like your post twice if I could.

The question of whether or not WHM should be the *only* primary healer in the game is a debate that I am willing to entertain. But don't stroll in here and say "you have enspell II to add to the party." I know some WHM are concerned about losing their place as *the* best healer in the game. I have WHM leveled too! I have all 3 of the jobs in question leveled. Let me tell you, WHM brings so much to the table that even giving SCH or RDM Cure V will not change that. Even before the level cap, this was the case. The only area WHM suffered was Meripo parties because of RDM MP efficiency. (It still got more invites than SCH though.) In any other event, WHM always had a place.

MP efficiency is not really a problem for just about any mage job these days. The new equip, subjob options and abilities have made most of those concerns a lot less pressing.

I am of the opinion that WHM should be the best choice for the main healing slot in just about every situation. However, I would like both RDM and SCH to be *adequate* second choices to fill that spot. Currently, that is not the case in Abyssea or Voidwatch. Now, how they decide to go about doing this is up in the air.

Much to the dismay of some of you, the dev team has not ruled out the possibility of adding a higher tier cure at some point. They've said as much in their post. This seems like the easiest fix, but let's be honest, it is also the least creative and does very little to differentiate the 3 jobs. I would love if they developed a healing helix type of spell for SCH that was actually viable and buffed Light Arts and the new spells to actually be potent. What if the TP down spells they mentioned noticeably reduced the amount of TP moves an NM used or if the Animus spells were useful? How about additional bonuses to weather spells? It would be amazing if RDM received enhancing spells that sufficiently buffed the group and enfeebles that sufficiently debuffed the mob so that Cure IV would be enough to keep the group alive.

As you can see, in order to fill in for that WHM, both the SCH and RDM will have to work a lot harder and utilize all of the tools at their disposal. I have NO problems with this. I don't think any RDM or SCH in this thread wants to replace WHM. I think they would just like a reason to be invited!

Again, the content is changing as we move out of Abyssea. From what I've seen thus far though, while player HP pools are returning to normal, NM difficulty is increasing greatly. Both jobs need to bring something more to the table to warrant a spot on the team. SCH really brings nothing to the table as things stand now. RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and toss out extra Hastes. Something has to be done about this.

SE could give Cure 5 to RDM and WHM but adjust the formula so that MND or VIT aren't factored in, kinda like how Waltz was changed for /DNC so that CHR wasn't factored in. This way RDM SCH PLD get something more along the lines of Cure 4.5 which would heal around 600ish not adding in potency. They can also remove the enmity bonus associated with it so that it would draw massive hate(good for PLD, bad for RDM/SCH)

sasarai 100% ya

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

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Compared to gravity; bind; Stoneskin; Utsusem, Fast Cast, and Slow II working as a team; proper equipment for Elemental Magic; proper equipment to reduce or eliminate spell interruption; or just finding a really nice fence, casting one less cure after Convert wouldn't make much of a difference. Casting one cure rather than two would make the process safer, but wouldn't save anyone who used Convert right next to the monster without Stoneskin or shadow images.

You're definitely right that it would make the process less risky, but it wouldn't do so in a way that would allow any additional monsters to be killed by a lone Red Mage. It also wouldn't make the process any faster, and time spent is the main pitfall of soloing something nowadays.

Of course, this does raise an interesting point. The development team does some weird stuff so they may get all worked up over the idea of risk being reduced even with literally no other effects. I have no idea what their concept of "balance" is.

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

If higher tier VoidWatch stuff and some of the new Notorious Monsters in Dynamis are any indication, pretty much everything new with a funny name is going to hit like a truck full of dynamite. Without twice as much HP, more jobs gaining more ways to keep people alive is even more important.

I agree with most of your other points, though. Cure V (or Cure VI, since it is and always will be closer to Cure IV's MP efficiency) for all would be the least interesting solution by far.

Personally agree with a comment someone made earlier in the thread - SE needs to make supporting jobs like RDM worth having in a party instead of a DD, bard or what have you. As I understand it, RDM and SCH are supposed to be jack-of-all-trades who fill gaps and do a bit of everything to earn their spot in the party - you use ALL your magic skills (and for RDM, your melee weapon skills if you've geared for it) to bring everyone to a new level of strength. THIS is what I think RDM and SCH both should be and would like to be, not a stand in for BLM or WHM. Working in tandem is hugely preferable to working against one another.

As a WHM, I am fortunate to be in an event static with an absolutely incredible RDM who does just that, and he is flexible enough to take on anything thrown at him - he can kite, crowd control, stun, support heal, land crippling enfeebles, effectively deal elemental damage, and just generally keep everyone ticking over. He's got PDT- gear and melee gear. In a pinch he can step in and keep things going if me or a BLM are in trouble. This is what I think RDM should excel in.

I think SE could really do with boosting his ability as an enhancer. The AoE Boost-XXX spells could have gone to RDM and been made targettable like Curaga, and things like this double attack spell RDM is supposed to be getting might help here. Make these spells long duration, easy to use and possibly AoE so RDM aren't locked into another haste/refresh cycle, and make them worth using to they really add to a party's strength.

Once SE manages to get the specialists (WHM and BLM) and the support (RDM, SMN, SCH) to a point where players will accept them being in the same party, THEN we can start looking at "overpowering" one job in favour of another - eg things like Haste II - because WHM and RDM (for example) will work so well together than RDM's Haste II won't be reason to dump WHM. Then it won't MATTER that WHM is the only job with Cure V because support mages will already have their places in a party regardless.

More practically, even with this vision I agree that RDM could use a small bonus to healing prowess. With increasing HP, Cure IV is the new Cure III and, even with Tranquil Heart, I think the enmity could stand to be dropped further. There are lots of other possibilities - modifying Regen so that it'll keep working in the background on people with full HP and then restore that lump of "regenned" HP when that player takes damage, for example, or other damage mitigation tools. Oh, and as a WHM even I'm annoyed that RDM lost having exclusive rights to Addle.

So that's my take on this. Focusing not on "RDM needs Cure V to stand in for WHM", but "RDM needs special new spells so that it'll be indisputibly worth having -alongside- WHM, regardless of Cure V".

When have people not wanted a rdm next to whm? I always had rdm with whm in events for refresh/dia3/haste/debuffs at 75, and the same will be true at 99*.


*assuming lv99 is not in abyssea

Well the main thing that people seem to be saying here is that they're not invited to things because a WHM is already there, so apparently in at least some situations RDM + WHM is not seen as desirable. It's like at 75 cap - people often wouldn't want a RDM and a WHM in any experience points party above level 55ish, though it would be wanted in certain endgame situations. If SE are able to make two magic casting jobs work in the same party across the board (and not just in certain situations) then it'd help solve some of RDM's problems.

It's just important to get the balance right; I think that WHM's lack of MP recovery abilities at 75 was supposed to encourage WHM to team up with a support caster, but because RDM's abilities were already adequate for experience this didn't work. At 90, WHM doesn't really lack anything so there's no need for support casters unless you need really powerful enfeebling or enhancing (eg. powerful NMs). Obviously this is a very black and white example, with some exceptions, but the principle stands. If SE can change this so that support offers something really powerful all the time (for example some new, unique enhancing effects) then those support casters will always have something valuable that WHM lacks, and vice versa (Cure V). This makes both specialist and support casters' places in a party more assured in all scenarios, including those in which RDM has been devalued by the playerbase. Making these fun to use - long duration, AoE, possible connection to Composure for RDM, allowing meleeing and so on - would be instrumental in making these changes work.

The tl;dr would be that support casters like RDM need to be able to earn their place in a party -whatever that party is doing-, not just in certain situations, otherwise we're stuck with parties without support casters and that's not good for anyone (except DDs). Just as a bard can replace a DD solely through enhancing, so should a RDM be able to though applying its many trades in equal measure.

=edit= Obviously the critical thing here is to make sure that any enhancements to support casting or specialist casting jobs don't break the balance. Give RDM access to Cure V as well as some powerful unique enhancements and WHM's position isn't assured, and vice versa. Maintaining the balance that would allow two casters per party (including combinations like RDM + RDM, for example) is of absolute importance to stop certain casting jobs being marginalised.

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Originally Posted by Aequis

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

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whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

11 pages and ignorant white mages still don't understand why giving Cure V to RDM and SCH would not turn those jobs into the new WHM.

[SIZE="7"]CURESKIN[/SIZE]

No, it's not just an extra 300 HP that effectively raises the target's HP by that amount for a short period of time if the target was cured to full. It's that, plus
[SIZE="7"]
no spell interruption[/SIZE]

And that means that your NIN or THF tank can get their shadows back up even as they're getting hit by a truck. And that means that the battle is under control again with one Cure V, whereas that RDM or SCH main healer would probably have to follow the Cure V with Cure 4 or another Cure V if ichi gets interrupted and Ni isn't up yet.

I think any more discussion of this is a waste of time until and unless people finally understand that point.

Cureskin isn't the only thing White Mage has going for it, but it is pretty darn enormous. It's more or less an extra +25% cure potency above the cap and is exceptionally useful in all situations. It's not even the only thing White Mage brings to the table, which puts White Mage that much further ahead of everyone else.

Seriously, White Mage is so far ahead of the game here that no one else is even a speck on the horizon when it comes to filling the role of healer.

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Originally Posted by Lilia

whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

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You saying, that WHM and SCH etc. took a lot from us, by using RDM as a sub?

I'm aware of everything we lost, but this is where the problem starts. My first job to lv.75 was Red mage, and despite having ten other jobs at lv.90 I still consider it my "main". We did end up losing a lot of our specialities at each level uncap, some of which should have been handled better.

SCH as a sub has been restricted in terms of what SCH main has, and I don't quite get the WHM/RDM thing everyone seems so fond of. If you're shedding MP in Abyssea so fast that you need Convert, well...the only thing I have ever used /RDM for on WHM is NMs that need Dispel often (eg. Carabosse if you're the sole mage).

The answer though, isn't to ask for spells that other jobs already have in an attempt to make us somewhat "equal". The last time SE did that to us, they pretty much decimated our flexibility and uniqueness, because people complained we were "too powerful". The solution lies in giving back to each job a specific role, something that defines them and makes them stand out. Whatever you can do outside of the norm with whatever you have, ie. soloing certain NMs as RDM, that's fine and as far as I'm concerned, is a bonus to us.

We don't need to be playing "catch-up" with any job in terms of what we can do. We need clearly defined specific roles, and the giving of JSE spells or abilities to other jobs needs to stop, else there'll be a point where we're all playing the same thing - "Generic mage".

I don't mind not having Cure V, as a RDM, since we are not supposed to be healers. That is a White Mage's job. But we should get things that make us wanted in parties/missions/HNM hunts, because the way it is now..
Especially with Refresh Atmas and all the stats buffs from Atmas.. most people are not interested in RDMs anymore, not even for debuffs because Atmas make them too strong to worry about debuffs.

So yeah, Cure V doesn't really matter, but don't cast us out! XD
Give us something that'd make people want a RDM.

specific role... is good.... for the mom i cant see the place for rdm.
when the party need healing- i go whm, when the party need nukes-blm, support and enfeebling-blu or smn.
only when the alli/party have this magejobs you can come rdm.
Or is a lol event with lowlvl mobs , then is a rdm ok.

~Maybe a solo player , with a bit for the party~

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

If Cure V is the only thing keeping White Mage at the top of the hill then the game has some serious design issues to work out.

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That's the sad thing, it isn't why WHM is the top healer. Even if RDM and SCH had cure5, they still wouldn't compare to a WHM, especially next update. Why?:

1) Cureskin is amazing
2) JA MDB bonus thingy? omg so amazing
3) Amazingly strong barspells
4) Shellra5 5/5 is amazing

WHM offers too much survivability, even without factoring in Cure5. I'd still feel sooo much safer with a WHM than any RDM or SCH, but oh well?

The problem is that those assets are, while extremely powerful, unnecessary in quite a lot of casual content.

Things like stoneskin conferred by Cure are only useful 100% of the time when you're cure bombing a tanking monk or something like that; in any other scenario I find maybe 80% of those stoneskin effects wearing off naturally, either due to Utsusemi users or hate bouncing around. Sure, that's 20% that are doing something useful, and it is a significant benefit, but not as significant as it appears on paper. Likewise, my barspells with full merits and gear offer only a few points of potency above those of a RDM, so my only real advantage is the magic defence bonus - again, it's very good to have but not as black and white as it appears. The same goes for Shellra V with full merits - a 3% increase in magic defence over Shell V. Useful, but not groundbreaking. Again, for our other high potency spells - Cure VI is hugely expensive and never useful outside Abyssea (and not always inside), I've used Curaga IV maybe four times this year, and Regen IV is only practically useful when blood tanking. Very powerful spells and effects that have a potency that's rarely necessary.

I agree 100% that support casters like RDM should be able to cope with a WHM's duties when high potency support isn't needed - things like paper NMs, or EXP and the like. However, WHMs have only recently recovered from being shunned in low-man content and experience points parties at 75 cap. We don't want to go back to the status quo where medium potency support casters are preferred to us for things like that which don't require our high potency. After all, we can only do one thing - heal and protect - whilst support casters can generally do a lot more than that.

Yes, WHM shouldn't be the only healing option 100% of the time - that's ridiculous - but we should at least be AN option 100% of the time. Giving Cure V to support casters may not change that, but we've still got a way to go to 99 cap and Cure V narrows that gap significantly. Making room in parties for two mages - specialist and support casters together - is a much better solution than cloning parts of jobs and running the risk of treading on toes. If SE's introduction of SCH is anything to go by, they need to focus on understanding this before working on magic casting jobs any more.

For me, it's never mattered much which support job is a slightly better healer for more laid back content. That's the point of laid back content: you can mostly do whatever you want. As long as White Mage remains the obvious first choice for challenging content and situations where healing is really important, things feel balanced to me.

Even Fellowship NPCs get Cure 5...

blus white wind- aoe heal ~ 700 hp- "........"

Yeah, bluemage gets cure5 -1, curaga4 -1 and tons of DDing options. We still don't have cure5 and have curaga0(or curaga2 but lol @ subbing whm, and accession cure3/4 destroy your single target healing). But it's ok, we get a brutal earring spell!

Makes no sense at all, I wonder if the entire dev team is trolling us.

the devs play blus and hates all rdm.... maybe i dream

where is the whm community?
rly... by rdms want cure5.... (whm)"no no is too much" "rdm with cure5 is the new main healer"....
by blu cure5 ....(whm)"...."
by blu cure5 andcuraga4 (whm)"....."

lol. i know whm+rdm the old 75 friends

It's more than a bit ridiculous that Blue Mage is going to have access to our top tier spells (because Curaga V is going to be completely excessive, Cure VI is currently less so but certainly an OSHI- button). However, the difference is that Blue Mage has a completely different role to Red Mage. In practice, what party is likely to ask a Blue Mage to heal for them? Yes, it does happen, but not often.

Red Mage, on the other hand, generally has a very similar back line role to White Mage in most parties. If Red Mages had access to Cure V they would immediately be using it to augment their existing role and would therefore be better positioned to start giving White Mages something to worry about.

I'm not saying it's right for Blue Mages to have these spells, or that Red Mage shouldn't get something decent to help with healing, I'm just pointing out a possible reason why White Mages aren't foaming at the mouth over this sort of thing.