The Mysteries of Vana 'Diel

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

This is a tough one.

If we assume Doggvdegg fell into the Crystal line after the battle with him in the WOTG Sandy mission then it's possible he remained there in limbo until the Al'taieu crystal became linked to the system during the events of CoP.

It isn't exactly impossible seeing as Lion pulled off a similar stunt that sidelined her from the conclusion of Zilart until the post-CoP followup in Apocalypse Nigh.

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Apollyon is the Greek word for Abbadon, which is Hebrew for "Place of Destruction" or "The Depths of Hell". Temenos originally meant an area set aside for the worship of gods, but has come to mean the plane of a deity.

I think that Limbus is one of the afterlives of Vana'diel.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Pulling something out of my ass?

Divine Magic is radiant. Divine Magic is derived from elements which radiate energy, making it easier to generate an "area of effect" -- pun intended.

Dark Magic is the exact opposite. It absorbs light, and has a tendency to collapse in on itself. Making it harder to expand it into an effect that spread across an area. That's why Absorb/Aspir/Absorb-Stat abilities draw from one place and "collapse" into another as single target.

How did I do? lol

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XD quite well I would say.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Apollyon is the Greek word for Abbadon, which is Hebrew for "Place of Destruction" or "The Depths of Hell". Temenos originally meant an area set aside for the worship of gods, but has come to mean the plane of a deity.

I think that Limbus is one of the afterlives of Vana'diel.

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I think the Heaven/Hell comparison is only meant to be cosmetic.

In reality, Apollyon is the Promyvion of the Al'taieu Crystal. The Emptiness surrounding the crystal has created an area of exploration culminating in the battle with Proto-Omega which was last active during the battle against Bahamut.

I seem to recall a Quasilumin explaining why exactly both Apollyon and Temenos are populated with monsters. I'll have to look that up shortly.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

I think the Heaven/Hell comparison is only meant to be cosmetic.

In reality, Apollyon is the Promyvion of the Al'taieu Crystal. The Emptiness surrounding the crystal has created an area of exploration culminating in the battle with Proto-Omega which was last active during the battle against Bahamut.

I seem to recall a Quasilumin explaining why exactly both Apollyon and Temenos are populated with monsters. I'll have to look that up shortly.

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I guess I should have been more clear. I meant that Apollyon and Temenos are both types of hell which is why they are both full of very bad things.

Originally Apollyon and Temenos were called "Lower Promyvion" and "Ou'Hpat Obelisk" respectively. In the update that ushered in Limbus (or maybe the one right before it, it has been a while) the names were changed to what they are now. (Nag'molada mentions Ou'Hpat Obelisk in one of the cutscenes even after the name changes.) That really doesn't have much to do with this discussion, just a neat bit of trivia since you mentioned Apollyon being Al'taieu's Promyvion.

Ah, I missed the point a bit.

soooooo goin' into limbus (limbo?) then to apollyon or temnos is like the FFXI version of Dante's Inferno? can we call it Bubeeky's Inferno instead?

We can visit six of them, and a seventh has been accounted for, but where is the Light Protocrystal? Weather suggests Qufim Island somewhere.

What's up with the three "failed" elements, the ones associated with the carmine, cerulean and gray chips and the malfunctioning/broken ancient apparatuses?

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

We can visit six of them, and a seventh has been accounted for, but where is the Light Protocrystal? Weather suggests Qufim Island somewhere.

What's up with the three "failed" elements, the ones associated with the carmine, cerulean and gray chips and the malfunctioning/broken ancient apparatuses?

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The Light Protocrystal is a good question. Alexander is the odd man out with the Celestial Avatars, outside of summoning, he only manifests in vessels. (And even as a summon he manifests in the form of his last vessel.) It is possible that the in-story reason for the lack of a Light Protocrystal is that it was lost when the Gordeus went supernova in the last Ragnarok, but even then he was summoned in a vessel, so it is hard to say. It is possible that the Light Protocrystal could be under Qufim, the basement of Lower Delkfutt's Tower could lead to deeper levels that we cannot reach where it could exist in cannon.

I would hazard a guess that the three non-functioning ancient apparatuses were something that they planned on using but never got around to. Maybe they were going to add a fourth one in an expansion zone and give them level 2 skillchain properties. In the Jeuno quest data files there are unused quests for each of the 8 elements called "Mystery of (Element)". It is thought that this was how we were originally supposed to operate the Strange Apparatuses, but even that leaves out the three non-functioning ones. It is always possible that they might remember that they exist and decide to add in something for them later.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If you're talking about "Strange apparatus", They're used in a mini-quest to get items like the Arcane Flower pot, Rune Weapons, Cermet, and Crystal Clusters.



Decoration i think :X, some of them have prisoners inside.



Gusgen? If i recall it was explained during the Bastok quests.

It used to be a heavy Mining area for Bastok, However on one day, it was something along the lines of "Visit your parents" Day, where the children came to the mines to see their dads in work. Then a fiend cause a colossal cave-in throughout the mines which trapped/killed everyone inside. The ~8 NM ghosts are named after Workers and the way in which they died, the spirits you see floating around are the Miners and their Children's ghosts.

The NM that caused it was Juggler Hecatomb, it spawns every ~21/24 In the basement. If you notice when you go to the basement, theres actually a gigantic hole in the ceiling (Which you can drop down from above right onto the NM), This is how he caused the tremors/cave-in.

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See!! THIS is what makes this game brilliant! :)

how come there arnt any mixed children in the game besides Lilisette?
u know like:
elvaan + mithra
hume + taru
elvaan + taru? O_o wtf?
mithra + taru
hume + mithra

Sure, Karbuncle knows everything about FFXI but can he see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

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Originally Posted by Pyrobunny

how come there arnt any mixed children in the game besides Lilisette?
u know like:
hume + taru
elvaan + taru? O_o wtf?
mithra + taru

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Because Tarutaru are the Master Race and don't deign to lie with their lessers.

More seriously, though, Tarutaru are the only ones that have demonstrably procreated. Almost without exception, if there is a mother, a father, and a child together, they're Tarutaru. Most other races have childless couples and single-parent households.

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Originally Posted by Myrrh

Sure, Karbuncle knows everything about FFXI but can he see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

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Because its got the magic of Taru's?!

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Originally Posted by Pyrobunny

how come there arnt any mixed children in the game besides Lilisette?
u know like:
elvaan + mithra
hume + taru
elvaan + taru? O_o wtf?
mithra + taru
hume + mithra

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Cause that'd mean SE would have to pay for unique models and that ain't gonna happen. :p

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Originally Posted by Pyrobunny

how come there arnt any mixed children in the game besides Lilisette?
u know like:
elvaan + mithra
hume + taru
elvaan + taru? O_o wtf?
mithra + taru
hume + mithra

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This is actually a good question.

I'd guess this means that Humes and Elvaans are very closely related. I haven't gone through the entire WoTG missions, but as far as I know, it remains to be seen whether Lilisette is fertile or not.

I think any other combination doesn't work because they are too genetically dissimilar.

Of course, this is a fantasy game where the 5 races come from crystals, or the tears of Altana, or one of those Legendary wild dates between Altana and a drunken Promethia (I don't even want to think about the chains....) or whatever the retconned origin is. So, maybe we don't have to worry about details like compatible genes. Excuse me, I here mitochlorians calling.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

This is actually a good question.

I'd guess this means that Humes and Elvaans are very closely related. I haven't gone through the entire WoTG missions, but as far as I know, it remains to be seen whether Lilisette is fertile or not.

I think any other combination doesn't work because they are too genetically dissimilar.

Of course, this is a fantasy game where the 5 races come from crystals, or the tears of Altana, or one of those Legendary wild dates between Altana and a drunken Promethia (I don't even want to think about the chains....) or whatever the retconned origin is. So, maybe we don't have to worry about details like compatible genes. Excuse me, I here mitochlorians calling.

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I'd say it probably the same reason a Great Dane and a Chihuahua can't mate. For one that would be scary as hell, and secondly, carrying and delivering the offspring would probably kill both, mother and child.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

This is actually a good question.

I'd guess this means that Humes and Elvaans are very closely related. I haven't gone through the entire WoTG missions, but as far as I know, it remains to be seen whether Lilisette is fertile or not.

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Some JP have done extensive research on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Some JP have done extensive research on this topic.

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I wish to join them. :D

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Originally Posted by Septimus

The Light Protocrystal is a good question. Alexander is the odd man out with the Celestial Avatars, outside of summoning, he only manifests in vessels. (And even as a summon he manifests in the form of his last vessel.) It is possible that the in-story reason for the lack of a Light Protocrystal is that it was lost when the Gordeus went supernova in the last Ragnarok, but even then he was summoned in a vessel, so it is hard to say. It is possible that the Light Protocrystal could be under Qufim, the basement of Lower Delkfutt's Tower could lead to deeper levels that we cannot reach where it could exist in cannon.

I would hazard a guess that the three non-functioning ancient apparatuses were something that they planned on using but never got around to. Maybe they were going to add a fourth one in an expansion zone and give them level 2 skillchain properties. In the Jeuno quest data files there are unused quests for each of the 8 elements called "Mystery of (Element)". It is thought that this was how we were originally supposed to operate the Strange Apparatuses, but even that leaves out the three non-functioning ones. It is always possible that they might remember that they exist and decide to add in something for them later.

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My personal belief is that Carbuncle would have more to do with the Light Protocrystal than any other Avatar. If I remember correctly, Carbuncle is actually supposed to be one of the strongest, isn't he? He just is the least connected to Vana'diel as compared to the others. I may be wrong about this, or remembering it wrong, but the fact that only he is pretty much the only one who has extended conversations with the players makes me feel as though he's the only one who's representative of his true self, and as such, more likely to be significantly powerful. He's only as weak as he is because without a baseline summon Summoner would be too dominating in appearance. The absence of a Light Protocrystal could be indicative of why Carbuncle is weaker than the rest -- because he has no means of fully projecting himself into the real world like the representations of the other avatars do.

Or at least, that's my assessment. I'm pretty sure they said that the other avatars are just shadows or remnants of the real ones.

I could be wrong with all of that, its been ages since I've seen a SMN cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

I'd say it probably the same reason a Great Dane and a Chihuahua can't mate. For one that would be scary as hell, and secondly, carrying and delivering the offspring would probably kill both, mother and child.

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This. Half a hume is still twice the size of a Tarutaru.

Tarutaru could have largely dominant genes, though. Anything that is half taru is born looking fully taru -- that's not too far fetched.

I don't, personally, understand what the purpose of making Galka and Mithra completely separate races, myself.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

My personal belief is that Carbuncle would have more to do with the Light Protocrystal than any other Avatar. If I remember correctly, Carbuncle is actually supposed to be one of the strongest, isn't he? He just is the least connected to Vana'diel as compared to the others. I may be wrong about this, or remembering it wrong, but the fact that only he is pretty much the only one who has extended conversations with the players makes me feel as though he's the only one who's representative of his true self, and as such, more likely to be significantly powerful. He's only as weak as he is because without a baseline summon Summoner would be too dominating in appearance. The absence of a Light Protocrystal could be indicative of why Carbuncle is weaker than the rest -- because he has no means of fully projecting himself into the real world like the representations of the other avatars do.

Or at least, that's my assessment. I'm pretty sure they said that the other avatars are just shadows or remnants of the real ones.

I could be wrong with all of that, its been ages since I've seen a SMN cutscene.

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You've got avatar lore a bit mixed up.

Carbuncle is one of the terrestrial avatars like Bahamut, Fenrir, Diabolos and Phoenix. These avatars are called terrestrials because they are merely magical beings created after Altana split the mothercrystal and created Vana'diel.

The celestial avatars however are immortal beings who existed before Altana created Vana'diel but are currently dormant save for Alexander and Odin. The fear the terrestrials have always had is that if awakened, the celestials would attempt to reunite the crystals and destroy Vana'diel thus bringing the world back to "paradise" meaning the end of their lives.

Sound familiar? The Zilart attempted to revert the world to "paradise" but were stopped by the Kuluu who would be destroyed if the plan succeeded. Bahamut assisted the Kuluu because he knew that he too stood to be destroyed if the world were to be reverted.

Skip forward thousands of years and you have Carbuncle's current plan.

Carbuncle believes that by making pacts with the races of Vana'diel, the celestials might change their minds about reverting the world to paradise when awakened by becoming attached to the lesser beings who have flourished in their absence.

Alexander would be the individual with a protocrystal since he is the celestial avatar of light, however I do not believe SE has ever given us a definitive reason as to how he was awakened or even where his protocrystal is.

What we do know is that Alexander has been awake a long time and much like Odin has not attempted to revert the world back to paradise due to their ongoing feud and the ego trip he seems to get from being worshiped by the individuals on Vana'diel. They keep building him physical bodies afterall.

Odin seems to be enjoying himself so much with the concept of building up an army and creating "knights" out of the inhabitants of Vana'diel that he stands to lose if the world were reverted to its original state.

Simply put, Odin and Alexander enjoy Vana'diel because it gives them purpose even though the way they go about their purpose leads to death and destruction for the inhabitants. Very much like kids and their toys huh?

Two words:

cardian cards

delay on X-bow vs bow, I've used both RL, you can get off 3-5 arrows in the time it takes to get off 1 X-bow bolt because X-bow takes forever to cock (granted, not with any particular accuracy).

Gear changes mid-fight, I've taught sword-fighting (and other weapons for that matter) for rennasaince fairs, SCA and the like; if you take the time to change armor between swings you'll be dead by the 2nd swing, not to mention some armor actually needs assistance to get on, particularily plate armor. On the other hand, if you have decent hand speed and agility you can change weapons pretty much without penalty.

Why can't we throw knives? Honestly, I have a dart board with 3 of them in it in my home office.

How do taru tanks work? Honestly, almost everything in the game can either step over them or pick them up and throw them into a tree...

This is a mideval world, wheres the smell, disease and whore-houses? Slaves? the 90+% illiteracy rate?

Why does everyone on 3 continents all speak the same language?

that'll do for starters...

High fantasy not medieval.

The water in Bastok looks like they've been just dumping their sewage into it.

Yay for corrupting the public water supply.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

delay on X-bow vs bow, I've used both RL, you can get off 3-5 arrows in the time it takes to get off 1 X-bow bolt because X-bow takes forever to cock (granted, not with any particular accuracy).

Gear changes mid-fight, I've taught sword-fighting (and other weapons for that matter) for rennasaince fairs, SCA and the like; if you take the time to change armor between swings you'll be dead by the 2nd swing, not to mention some armor actually needs assistance to get on, particularily plate armor. On the other hand, if you have decent hand speed and agility you can change weapons pretty much without penalty.

Why can't we throw knives? Honestly, I have a dart board with 3 of them in it in my home office.

How do taru tanks work? Honestly, almost everything in the game can either step over them or pick them up and throw them into a tree...

This is a mideval world, wheres the smell, disease and whore-houses? Slaves? the 90+% illiteracy rate?

Why does everyone on 3 continents all speak the same language?

that'll do for starters...

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I would love to see something throw a Taru into a tree.

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Originally Posted by Francisco

In one of the missions involving Fei'yin, a NPC says they found ruins similar to Fei'yin on Cape Teriggan. What is this supposed to be?

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Fei'Yin was a Kuluu settlement. Same as Horutoto and the Temple of Ugga. They might've had a settlement that failed on take on Teriggan. Alternatively, it was something they built to interact with Garuda's protcrystal. The Kuluu created Summoning magic after they were exiled by the Zilartians. Was the reason Zilartians were afraid of the Kuluu and tried to purge the Emptiness from them, since the taint of Emptiness was what prevented them from hearing The Whisper of the Soul that allowed psychic communication between Zilartians. They wanted to remove the difference between them so they wouldn't have to be afraid of an army of Summoner prols rising up to crush the psychic bourgeoisie.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

You've got avatar lore a bit mixed up.

Carbuncle is one of the terrestrial avatars like Bahamut, Fenrir, Diabolos and Phoenix. These avatars are called terrestrials because they are merely magical beings created after Altana split the mothercrystal and created Vana'diel.

The celestial avatars however are immortal beings who existed before Altana created Vana'diel but are currently dormant save for Alexander and Odin. The fear the terrestrials have always had is that if awakened, the celestials would attempt to reunite the crystals and destroy Vana'diel thus bringing the world back to "paradise" meaning the end of their lives.

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I thought the Celestial Avatars were created after the formation of Vana. They're called the Celestial Avatars because they're their own constellations. There was a whole series on the legends of each of those avatars back when they were doing the Tribune still. They were all mortals that moved the heart of Altana with their actions in life, so she called them and someone important to them to Heaven and they became a constellation/Celestial Avatar. Like Garuda was a bird that healed her master's illness, Ifrit was some monstrous general that repented for his deeds. Each of the brightest stars in the sky (the colored ones) is part of their constellation and named after the person or thing called up with them.

The Terrestrial Avatars were just bound to Vana because they were in charge of the Mothercrystals.

That's just what I remember from the tribunes though, there might be something in the Smn storyline that contradicts that and those are just fun stories and legends people made about the stars.

If Corsair's are using a six-barreled gun...why can't they shoot six bullets at a time?

six barrel gun, as other time of machinegun with more than one barrel, just shot 1 bullet at the time but exchange the barrel firing the bullet to avoid overheating.

Well. Hexaguns aren't machine guns. They're pepperbox guns. Pepperbox guns are what predated revolvers. You'd have multiple barrels that could each be preloaded, like the wheel of a modern revolver but with extra long chambers. But the wheel didn't spin when you pulled the trigger or cocked the hammer the way they do in modern single and double action revolvers. So after firing each shot you'd have to grip the barrels and spin them with your hand to the next shot. The advantage was that you have a bunch of shots loaded up already so you wouldn't have to open the breech and fumble with another bullet.

FFXI's other guns are all single-shot rifles of some kind, or stubby shotguns, I dunno. But they all have much longer delays than hexaguns, which fits with the model of a pepperbox gun having lots of shots ready to go.

I see, didn't think of it like that XD
How do worm enemies conceal treasure chests?

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Originally Posted by Chamaan

I thought the Celestial Avatars were created after the formation of Vana. They're called the Celestial Avatars because they're their own constellations. There was a whole series on the legends of each of those avatars back when they were doing the Tribune still. They were all mortals that moved the heart of Altana with their actions in life, so she called them and someone important to them to Heaven and they became a constellation/Celestial Avatar. Like Garuda was a bird that healed her master's illness, Ifrit was some monstrous general that repented for his deeds. Each of the brightest stars in the sky (the colored ones) is part of their constellation and named after the person or thing called up with them.

The Terrestrial Avatars were just bound to Vana because they were in charge of the Mothercrystals.

That's just what I remember from the tribunes though, there might be something in the Smn storyline that contradicts that and those are just fun stories and legends people made about the stars.

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The stories about the Celestial avatars seem to be written from the point of view of an ordinary citizen of Vana'diel. Most Vana'dielians know nothing about the Kuluu/Zilart conflict, the emptiness or that they are the result of the meltdown that happened in the wake of the earlier conflict.

The stories of the celestials seem to be nothing more than myth. A way for the people of Vana'diel to explain what they don't know.

What the player learns through RoTZ and CoP is a vastly different story that leaves no way for the celestials to have existed as mortals.

Altana created the world from the Mothercrystal, the Zilart attempted to reverse this process and were stopped by the Kuluu and Terrestrial avatars who would cease to exist if Vana'diel were destroyed. The conflict led to the dawn of the races that currently occupy the world.

Sweet sweet mysteries! I've been hiding in the shadows collecting all your questions and I forwarded them over to the development team. I can't promise anything, but we will see what they can answer! :)

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Originally Posted by Camate

Sweet sweet mysteries! I've been hiding in the shadows collecting all your questions and I forwarded them over to the development team. I can't promise anything, but we will see what they can answer! :)

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camate is the best friend i wish i had but i dont because i play ffxi

Camate is my secret best friend. He doesn't know it though.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Camate is my secret best friend. He doesn't know it though.

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The BFF bracelet gave it away.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

The stories about the Celestial avatars seem to be written from the point of view of an ordinary citizen of Vana'diel. Most Vana'dielians know nothing about the Kuluu/Zilart conflict, the emptiness or that they are the result of the meltdown that happened in the wake of the earlier conflict.

The stories of the celestials seem to be nothing more than myth. A way for the people of Vana'diel to explain what they don't know.

What the player learns through RoTZ and CoP is a vastly different story that leaves no way for the celestials to have existed as mortals.

Altana created the world from the Mothercrystal, the Zilart attempted to reverse this process and were stopped by the Kuluu and Terrestrial avatars who would cease to exist if Vana'diel were destroyed. The conflict led to the dawn of the races that currently occupy the world.

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This is correct, the Celestial Avatars came first. The 8 Celestial Avatars fell into slumber when the Mother Crystals were separated, Carbuncle fears that if they wake up they will attempt to merge the Mother Crystals back together to restore Paradise.

If I remember the story correctly the Terrestrial Avatars were normal animals before the Mother Crystals were split, and if they are merged again they will go back to being normal animals. They were created to protect the Mother Crystals, but the are less powerful than the Celestial Avatars since they were created after Paradise.

Now here is my question. It was clearly stated that there are only 8 Celestial Avatars (one for each element): Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, Leviathan, Alexander, and Odin. It was clearly stated that there are only 5 Terrestrial Avatars (one for each Mother Crystal): Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Bahamut, and Phoenix. Then what are Cait Sith, Atomos, Dark Ixion, and Auroral Alicorn? We know where Cait Sith came from, but what about the rest? Are they a class of Avatars like Temporal Avatars, or do they have some other classification? Inquiring Summoners want to know!

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Originally Posted by Septimus

This is correct, the Celestial Avatars came first. The 8 Celestial Avatars fell into slumber when the Mother Crystals were separated, Carbuncle fears that if they wake up they will attempt to merge the Mother Crystals back together to restore Paradise.

If I remember the story correctly the Terrestrial Avatars were normal animals before the Mother Crystals were split, and if they are merged again they will go back to being normal animals. They were created to protect the Mother Crystals, but the are less powerful than the Celestial Avatars since they were created after Paradise.

Now here is my question. It was clearly stated that there are only 8 Celestial Avatars (one for each element): Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, Leviathan, Alexander, and Odin. It was clearly stated that there are only 5 Terrestrial Avatars (one for each Mother Crystal): Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Bahamut, and Phoenix. Then what are Cait Sith, Atomos, Dark Ixion, and Auroral Alicorn? We know where Cait Sith came from, but what about the rest? Are they a class of Avatars like Temporal Avatars, or do they have some other classification? Inquiring Summoners want to know!

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I know that Dark Ixion and Auroral Alicorn have auras like avatars but are they really? They seem more like legendary creatures like Wyrms or Sandworms to me.

Was there any information other than that "Ixion is come!" article I missed out on?

I mean even Atomos can speak yet the Monoceros dont and they actually drop to the ground rather than self-dismiss like other avatar battles.

The only mystery that REALLY matters is the Cactuar Needle and Doll Gizmo one. They've been around for 8 years and have NO purpose!! No quest, no recipe, nothing! At least make Cactuar Needles used in some kind of Bolt or Arrow recipe and make Doll Gizmo used in a new PUP attachement or Frame.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

I know that Dark Ixion and Auroral Alicorn have auras like avatars but are they really? They seem more like legendary creatures like Wyrms or Sandworms to me. Was there any information other than that "Ixion is come!" article I missed out on?

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This is why I ask the question. Before the advent of Magian Moogles the only things that had that aura were Avatars.

In the Ixion is Come! article (I archive pretty much everything), it is stated that Ixion has "fiery eyes burning with intelligence" and that Elvaan folk lore state that the Unicorns are sent by the Goddess to help the dying into the afterlife. That sounds fairly Avatar-ish, considering how the Cait Sith were born. But a definitive answer would be nice.

Why is Angelica's palette upside down?! D:<