Suggestions to Improve/Rebalance Vanadiel's Divas

I'd also like to point out that I could care less about AoE chocobo jig >_>
Please dev team, focus your attention to things that matter >_>

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Originally Posted by Urat

To Camate:

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Originally Posted by Camate

If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.

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This sounds reasonable, though personally I myself feel the more effective way to go about it would be to introduce some more -waltz recast gear for us dancers to work for, or let us merit waltz recast- in the future. Alternatively a tier 3 flourish that lowered the recast of our next waltz would be great. Each consumed finish = more seconds taken off the recast.

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I'd be all for this. Even if DNC doesn't get a place for HNM fights (so much for that heavy damage), lol.

Question to Dancers: If you could cast a Waltz at any time despite your recast timer for the cost of some Finishing Moves in addition to the TP cost, would this be acceptable?

How doesn't SE see that Healing Waltz is extremely inefficient?

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Originally Posted by Zatias

How doesn't SE see that Healing Waltz is extremely inefficient?

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Seriously... it's bad enough that we can't even use two different waltzes on separate timers. Like Urat said though, if we had a reasonable tradeoff, we don't care, as long as we can play a support role.

Oh Camate you made my day. I havent laughed this much in a long time. I know you only repeat what you have been told to say, but it shows clearly that the developers have no interest in changing anything on dancer at all aside from the Animated Fluorish.

Most funny is that the posts starts with "Enjoy" and then every reply you went into was answered with

" No, Not planned, Unfortunatly, It is not planned, No, We cannot, No" those are, unfortunatly as we say in german "Reizwörter", words that drive the conversation to a negative, disharmonial ending and not very tactful chosen.

Anyways. Thanks for the headsup. That alone means well :)

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Originally Posted by Windwhisper

Oh Camate you made my day. I havent laughed this much in a long time. I know you only repeat what you have been told to say, but it shows clearly that the developers have no interest in changing anything on dancer at all aside from the Animated Fluorish.

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Pretty much why I quit playing DNC.

The only thing i'd like changed in separating healing waltz and stronger potency on steps idea (because anyone /dnc can get the exact same potency) DNC is already strong enough.

weither you accept this fact or not.

If it is to difficult for you to maintain the job's abilites and work, then you should indeed quit playing the job and go back to a cookie cutter "easy" job that requires less work or thinking, like war or sam.

All this "waaah make us insanly over powerd so we can match all dds and mages" is not going to fly. if you cannot handle dnc i am sorry, it is not for you. yes it has it's downsides. but so does every other job in this game. no one job was meant to "solve everything"

as i said, the ONLY thing i disagree with is the healing waltz timer sharing curing waltz timers. if it has to cost more TP, so be it. and step potency so as to not have another job subbing it dosn't get the same thing, (example a ninja main gets 4 shadows with ni 5 with +2 feet while any other job subbing nin only gets 3 shadows, no matter the tier) i am perfectly fine with everything else and enjoy the challange.

May as well ask SE to give DNC "Doom Step"

Unless you have Terpsichore, you spend >1 second and 3.333~5 TP to gain 1 finishing move. With capped delay reduction, one attack round is also a little >1 second. With Saber Dance and good gear, one attack round is about 2.7 swings.

In order to use a 5FM Reverse Flourish with Marches (assuming a 100% Step Hit Rate), you've spent 20 TP and 16.4 swings (including Reverse Flourish itself). If you hit for 5.5 TP, you've lost 110 TP total. You've spent over a weaponskill worth of TP and 16.4 hits worth of damage to make a self-skillchain and Defense -9%. That's assuming that you're entirely efficient and don't over-TP while you're readying yourself for the self-skillchain, and assuming what you're fighting has enough HP (left) that it needs the skillchain. Basically, as we approach the Haste cap Steps and Flourishes become not worth using for damage purposes because of job ability delay. This whole calculation was carried through assuming a much more efficient Dancer than reality.

Simplicity brings efficiency much of the time, so a simpler strategy (WS when you have 100TP) is going to be carried out more efficiently than a more complicated strategy (Use Presto, then use Box Step exactly 1 second after it, then use Box Step again exactly 15 second later, then use Rudra's Storm exactly 1 second later, then use Reverse Flourish exactly 1 (or 2?) second later, then use Evisceration exactly 1 second later).

Admittedly, I don't take my own advice and continue to do a step/flourish rotation even when I have enough Haste that I shouldn't. Still, I'd like for the fun and Dancer-ish way to play the job to also be the best way to play it.

having played dnc to 90 imo the job is fine as is maybe add more weapon skills or its own weapon type. I've got desperate floursh to stick 99% of the time, and gravity also reduces evasion. Also I wild flourish is epic if you know how to use it. :)
here is what you do you use the floruish you boost ws then you use wild flourish with a weapon skill and with tyhe added boost effect you do some nice dmg. I solo most sea boss fights with it :) heck i out did my blu b/f in the disco ball nm to get into the inner gardens.

having read you stuff I gotta ask, how long have you played dnc? how much do you actually use the skills?
I've been playing the class since its release. I take pride in the class since I did take up dance in real life. (i took ballet for several years)

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Unless you have Terpsichore, you spend >1 second and 3.333~5 TP to gain 1 finishing move. With capped delay reduction, one attack round is also a little >1 second. With Saber Dance and good gear, one attack round is about 2.7 swings.

In order to use a 5FM Reverse Flourish with Marches (assuming a 100% Step Hit Rate), you've spent 20 TP and 16.4 swings (including Reverse Flourish itself). If you hit for 5.5 TP, you've lost 110 TP total. You've spent over a weaponskill worth of TP and 16.4 hits worth of damage to make a self-skillchain and Defense -9%. That's assuming that you're entirely efficient and don't over-TP while you're readying yourself for the self-skillchain, and assuming what you're fighting has enough HP (left) that it needs the skillchain. Basically, as we approach the Haste cap Steps and Flourishes become not worth using for damage purposes because of job ability delay. This whole calculation was carried through assuming a much more efficient Dancer than reality.

Simplicity brings efficiency much of the time, so a simpler strategy (WS when you have 100TP) is going to be carried out more efficiently than a more complicated strategy (Use Presto, then use Box Step exactly 1 second after it, then use Box Step again exactly 15 second later, then use Rudra's Storm exactly 1 second later, then use Reverse Flourish exactly 1 (or 2?) second later, then use Evisceration exactly 1 second later).

Admittedly, I don't take my own advice and continue to do a step/flourish rotation even when I have enough Haste that I shouldn't. Still, I'd like for the fun and Dancer-ish way to play the job to also be the best way to play it.

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your playing wrong then I've had 0 issues with using my skills >.>

sorry for the harsh tones in my 2 posts Just you guys are making me giggle a bit on the complaint about this class.

some tips : steps get better with dex. wait till 300% tp, use reverse flourish alot. this help tons to be a great dancer. I do not relay on the best gear and solo alot of stuff as my old 90 dnc. The character was kekkaishi a mithra on lakshmi. Just in case someone can vouch for me :)

I'm also leveling dnc on rosina (hence the siggy) and doing great as dnc/thf. Doing well in keeping my parry skills capped. heck I was fighting 5+ mobs at a time in the canyon @ dnc 15. most the mobs were easy prey to decent minus the decent and even match yag that joined. XD

Kept alive pretty easily also.

Byrth is by far, hands down, no contest, contenders where?, unmatched, world champion level, WWE Heavyweight Champion of the World best and most knowledgeable DNC to ever grace these forums.

I know you have ADD or Schizophrenia or something, so TL:DR? Shut up and listen.

The answer to being a better dancer is to suck at being a DNC?

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Originally Posted by Rosina

heck I was fighting 5+ mobs at a time in the canyon @ dnc 15. most the mobs were easy prey to decent minus the decent and even match yag that joined. XD

Kept alive pretty easily also.

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Your example of how good a dnc you are, is telling people that you survived fighting 5 EP to EM mobs at once at level 15???

Good god.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Your example of how good a dnc you are, is telling people that you survived fighting 5 EP to EM mobs at once at level 15???

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I remember doing this when a ton of links showed up next to a maw in hopes that someone would do something about it. In the end I kept getting Goblin links for a while and killing things super slowly because I could only use TP for healing. It was cool Dancer could do that, but I think it would have been faster to home point and go back, it was so slow.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Your example of how good a dnc you are, is telling people that you survived fighting 5 EP to EM mobs at once at level 15???

Good god.

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Roflmao, I know right? She could at least provide a more epic example.

dnc could make very good use of juggler abilitys.. Since we wont ever be seeing that job...

A smile toss type ja to reset another players JA.. randomly im sure.

weapon , ball, ring toss type moves.

Dare I menton mimic...

DNC excels at old content, but who cares if you can solo bosses that were designed for level 75 cap 15 levels later?
It's great in Abyssea, except that it's made useless by the proc system so there's little reason to bring it unless you're like me and militant about it :P

We're talking about making DNC useful on future HNM-type content, not on old trash content.

Also if anyone else mentions D.Flourish, I just might have an aneurysm :(

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Originally Posted by Rosina

some tips : steps get better with dex.

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What the-?
Do you realize how wrong you are?

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

What the-?
Do you realize how wrong you are?

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Tip of the iceberg my friend, tip of the iceberg. Don't read the rest. Spare yourself.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

your playing wrong then I've had 0 issues with using my skills >.>

sorry for the harsh tones in my 2 posts Just you guys are making me giggle a bit on the complaint about this class.

some tips : steps get better with dex. wait till 300% tp, use reverse flourish alot. this help tons to be a great dancer. I do not relay on the best gear and solo alot of stuff as my old 90 dnc. The character was kekkaishi a mithra on lakshmi. Just in case someone can vouch for me :)

I'm also leveling dnc on rosina (hence the siggy) and doing great as dnc/thf. Doing well in keeping my parry skills capped. heck I was fighting 5+ mobs at a time in the canyon @ dnc 15. most the mobs were easy prey to decent minus the decent and even match yag that joined. XD

Kept alive pretty easily also.

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Wow.

I wish I had the same skill at denying reality that you have at denying how FFXI works. It is enviable.

I would never age, I would be capable of sustained flight using only my pinky toes, and I'd eat two and a half Libertarians for breakfast every morning.

The effect of steps is static. Nothing affects the potency of a step unless it specifically says "Enhances X Step Effect".

I'm not even sure how to address the bit about 300% TP. You do know it's the recast of waltzes that eventually becomes problematic, right?

Oh Rosina, you so silly gurl.

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

If you're serious about a TP-draining area-of effect style buff, please consider making a variety of effects that DNC can bestow this way.

Potential Enhancements to Consider
1.) Regain
2.) Critical Hit Rate + Critical Attack Bonus
3.) Double Attack Rate + Triple Attack Rate
4.) Other? Something defensive? Probably won't get used.

Originally, I suggested:
Backup Dance (Dancer level 95, Recast 5 minutes, duration 5 minutes or until the DNC has 0 TP). Sacrifices TP to regenerate surrounding Party members' TP. ---Consumes 100 TP to give the dancer a "Sphere" effect that drains the DNC's TP by 2/tic to give party members a 2TP/tic regain effect as long as they are nearby.

Instead, make this a new category of dance, like Sambas, and increase DNC's ability to support the party similar to the manner in which BRD+COR are able to enhance the party. Consider, however, that this will constantly drain the DNC's TP so the effect should be fairly potent to make up for it. And yes, they should stack with sambas.

Category: Backup Dances

1.) Rousing Cheer (DNC Level 92)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive the effect of Regain. Drains 2/TP tic from the DNC, and part members regenerate 2TP/Tic. The cost of this ability is set less than the others because the DNC will see no benefit from this ability.

2.) Tenacious Cheer (DNC Level 95)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to critical hit rate and critical attack bonus (including the DNC). Drains 3 TP/tic. This should be at least 5% each, but I think 10% is more fair for the cost. Still significantly weaker than Blood Rage, which is intentional.

3.) Frenzied Cheer (DNC Level 99)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to their double and triple attack rates. Drains 4-5/tic. 10% double attack and 5% triple attack.


Balance the ability by making it wear off if TP reaches 0 and give it a somewhat long recast (3-5 minutes?). You can even make it not have any effect when solo if that's a balancing issue you're worried about.

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This is another idea I had, but I'm quoting the original post so I don't have to re-explain anything.
Why not have this ability work somewhat like favors/impetus and start out slightly weaker, but increase in potency the longer the DNC is able to maintain it? Have it increase in tiers based on the amount of TP which has been drained from the dancer and cap out at some point. Obviously (at least, I hope) you all (being the dev team) know more about game balance than I do, so I'll leave the exact values up to you to decide.

Since the effect as I have described it would wear when TP hits 0, this would emphasize the Dancer's need to stay active and on the front lines (without major support from other party members), and there are interesting strategic issues involved with enemies who steal or reduce TP. Just a thought.

Also please do something to make steps and waltzes stand out more when used by a main job DNC as opposed to someone using DNC as a support job, even if it's through equipment additions (such as the "Enhances Feather Step" on our Empyrean shoes).

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Tip of the iceberg my friend, tip of the iceberg. Don't read the rest. Spare yourself.

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precisely why i barely post here, let alone read what people say, people like this give me a headache

Only thing DNC is getting this update is another Flourish

•Dancer
•Ternary Flourish (Lv. 93)
Allows you to deliver a threefold attack. Requires at least three finishing moves.

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Originally Posted by Moink

Only thing DNC is getting this update is another Flourish

•Dancer
•Ternary Flourish (Lv. 93)
Allows you to deliver a threefold attack. Requires at least three finishing moves.

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Complete waste of the development team's time.

they will spend more time coming up with an animation than the players will ever use in their entire time in the game

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.

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Bards require nothing to be consumed for their Mazurka song. I don't see the difference.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

If I had the same rating in GK as daggers, I sure as hell wouldn't use daggers. 450 delay weapons are right along with daggers in TP gain according to the TP formula, even before sTP, you also get the 2H bonus and you could /SAM for hasso as well. Not to mention the superior weapon skills (Outside of abyssea on stuff that matters, AKA what SE said would be the next few updates)

Honestly, they need to fix 1Hs again before they do the new content or DNCs and THFs both are going to be shafted again outside of trash clear endgame like dynamis.

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If NIN doesn't get Y/G/K, why would DNC?

Kasha has a flower animation, so does Trance, so we'd definitely get at least that!

Also inb4 next job feedback for dnc has the question "I want to use Great Katanas on DNC."

would give me a reason to get a masamune.

Make it happen. Oh man, and give them monocles as well. That would be dope y0. Wait... I think I'm doing this wrong.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

All this "waaah make us insanly over powerd so we can match all dds and mages" is not going to fly. if you cannot handle dnc i am sorry, it is not for you. yes it has it's downsides. but so does every other job in this game. no one job was meant to "solve everything"

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This made me chuckle, examine warrior. I've yet to see any downsides to Warrior except it can't use Great Katana, or Katana. Damage mitigation? Destroying a mob in several seconds has been considered a form of damage mitigation. Other than that, it can tank, and by tank. I mean retaliate, proc almost every red under the sun.

Appreciate the gesture at 3:21 in the morning.

Please make Pet and NPC can get benifits form Samba again. It's no reason that why samba will not have effect on both. =D

AYOOOOOOO CAMATE !

My Dancer Suggestions

1. Give Dancer a higher Dual Wield
2. Cut down Curing Waltz IV and V recast by 5 seconds
3. Infatuation Samba: Lowers enemies Attack and Magic Attack.
4. Piercing Samba: Lowers enemies Defense and Magic Defense.
5. Increase the strength of Reverse Flourish a tad.

This one may be crazy but.

6. Can we get a glowing effect for Trance? Kinda like FF9 Trance but it doesn't have to be as extravagant.

I just would like to know why we, the players, accept non-sense and bull effects for jobs like this. SE is always yelling about balance this and balance that but yet nin can do everything we can plus more and I believe fits closer to where dnc should be than even a dnc main. We sit back and think that whatever se comes up with like this ternary crap is balancing. What exactly is so over powering about giving us defensive debuffs like paralyze, atk dwn, such abilities(not sambas). It upsets me to see how we really have no place in pts expecially with nins being able to use our prized haste samba and have access to our Curing Waltz 3. I dont want hear about crap like, o well yalls is more potent or dnc can use nin debuffs too. #1 haste/delay reduction caps at some point eventually making our little merit boost pointless. #2 if we cant slow down the dmg that is coming at us some way it doesnt matter how much more we cure. #3 when are we EVER going to land AND stick a nin buff let alone it be potent enough to even matter. If it sounds like im furious good cause I am. This is non-sense and crap for people think o this would overpower dnc or that would overpower dnc but look mnk and nin are good though /nod /nod I call a boat load of BS. FIX THIS ASAP. *Points to past FF Dancers* Look at them. That is how we are really ment to be namely tactics. If you want us to solo and still be in pts fine just give us the defensive debuffs to help us out please!

I just realized that with the title of this thread, Male DNC are now "Divas". lol

These are some more ideas I have had for DNC. I would like to enhance DNC's ability as a support job, seeing as that aspect of the job has fallen behind DD, tanking, and Solo. I particularly like the idea of playing with a monster's spell cast time or time between casting. On monsters that players can only damage during spell casting, or when not casting, I think this could be a convenient tool for DNC.
Sorry for the long post. I actually have a lot more silly ideas but I figure I'll post them some other time.

Samba ideas:

Lvl 55: Piercing Samba
-Inflicts the next target you strike with Piercing daze, allowing all those engaged in battle with it to gain piercing type weapon bonuses.

Lvl 70: Blunt Samba
-Inflicts the next target you strike with Blunt daze, allowing all those engaged in battle with it to gain blunt type weapon bonuses.

Lvl 75: Slashing Samba
-Inflicts the next target you strike with Slashing daze, allowing all those engaged in battle with it to gain slashing type weapon bonuses.

Lvl 85 Magical Samba
-Inflicts the enemy with Magical Daze, allowing all those engaged in battle with it to gain magical type weapon bonuses.

Step idea:

Lvl 87 Fantastic Step
-Increases target's spell casting time. If successful, you will earn two Finishing Moves.
*8% first step, 4% each step after capping off at 24%.
**Ideally, some kind of gear enhancement would bring it to 30%
***The name of the daze would be Stupefied Daze
****this in conjunction with Addle or the new BRD song would prove to be a powerful combination.
*****Another idea for this step is that it affects "recast time." Which in this case would mean increasing the amount of time between spell casts for enemy AI.

Job ability Ideas:

Lvl 95 Parapara
Recast: 1 minute
Duration: 30 seconds or until next flourish is used.
-Grants effect of your next self-enhancing flourish to all members of your party
*Party members receive the full effects of Ternary, striking, climactic, and building flourish.
**The TP received from reverse flourish is distributed evenly between party members.
***This is an idea from the Jp forum I thought was very good. I elaborated on it and gave it a name. Unfortunately, I can't find the original poster's name to give them the credit they deserve :(

Lvl 10 Encore
Recast:45 seconds
-Uses excess HP or MP absorbed through sambas to preform an extra dance.
*Dancer would get another bar under TP (or an invisible bar,) where excess MP or HP drained from enemies would build up. Bar's max would be determined by a percentage of the dancer's Max HP. (60% for HP, 30% for MP)
**The dancer would only start saving up HP/MP when their own HP/MP is maxed.
***The type of samba the dancer has used most recently. Using Aspir samba will set it to MP mode, but if the dancer uses haste or drain samba all saved up MP in the pool will be lost.

Other ideas:

Gear enhancement for Ternary Flourish
-Allows each hit of Ternary flourish to remove one beneficial effect from the enemy.
*It could be something like a 50% chance to remove an effect
**can remove up to three effects, but also can remove nothing

Gear enhancement for the Divine Waltzes
-Adds an erase effect to both of the divine waltzes.
*only removes spells curable by -na spells
**does not remove status effects cured by erase spells
***or vice versa lol

Ideas I support:

-Strengthen the effects of steps as we level up.

-a perfect parry ability

-increase samba duration as we level up

-evasion boost IV, please

-5 seconds of of Curing waltz IV and V. Also, bring Healing Waltz down to an 8 second recast.

-allow DNC to use hand-to-hand and club type weapons with decent enough skill (C+)
Staves would be cool too.

The damage type sambas are something I'd considered a long long time ago, but I gave up on them when they said they were going to make "damage type switching" a warrior ability in their manifesto.

The ability you named "Parapara," is interesting, also, the name is absolutely perfect, lol. It would have to alter the recast of the flourish, though.