Dragoon Manifesto thoughts

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Currently, the only good steal ability is Aura Steal, and it has a 5 minute timer and is cockblocked if the mob holds something. Apart from a certain Qiqirin in Salvage, and Brigandish Blade, there's really nothing worth stealing. Despoil is just steal but inflicts a random debuff. Useless on NMs as they don't carry stuff. Useless in general because you can't plan around it to make it useful.

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I wish SE realized that debuffs are meant to have short recasts so you can use them, not long ones so you use them occasionally if you feel like it. Imagine if Dispel had a 5 min recast for RDM, or if Flash had a 5 min recast on PLD. Even aspir and drain tend to be on the too long recast scale. (Except for PUP maybe, since if the recast isn't done I guess it can cast a nuke?)

I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for acknowlegement. I can see at least 5 topics related to steal in the first page of the thief forum. Yet not even a quick note saying "Looks like a lot of people are unhappy with steal, we'll pass this feedback on to the dev team." That sentance took me about 10 or 15 seconds to write.

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.

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Originally Posted by Yugl

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.

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Theres plenty already, I tried directing it there :(

I am sure the forum reps have sent these DRG ideas over to the dev team, (as they try to get as much feed back and information from us to them) so I wonder if the devs have a particular comment on what has been presented for the topic of DRG updates.

If they will not give us traits to the Wyvern like listed in the Original Post then why, I guess would be my reason. Something more than a malarkey response of 'It would overpower the job' (since it really wouldn't it would at most put it on par with the other heavy DD jobs) would be greatly appreciated. So, any word yet forum reps?

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I am sure the forum reps have sent these DRG ideas over to the dev team, (as they try to get as much feed back and information from us to them) so I wonder if the devs have a particular comment on what has been presented for the topic of DRG updates.

If they will not give us traits to the Wyvern like listed in the Original Post then why, I guess would be my reason. Something more than a malarkey response of 'It would overpower the job' (since it really wouldn't it would at most put it on par with the other heavy DD jobs) would be greatly appreciated. So, any word yet forum reps?

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I'd like to know too, I enjoy playing DRG.

It's really not a great job in a party setting at the moment though, not on high level mobs anyway

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Originally Posted by Yugl

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.

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So it's moved from general to thief forum, making topic number 6 (at least) relating to steal, without actually replying to it?

Care to rephrase that in English?

Sorry to jump into the discussion, but I bring some information regarding the feedback we have been receiving!

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“Adding the effect of reducing magic resistance to certain wyvern breath attacks” is the same effect as elemental ninjutsu spells, isn’t it? Additionally, you are able to select your ninjutsu, so shouldn’t you add some kind of selection process to this, too?

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The effect will be different than elemental ninjutsu spells.

During the most recent version update, the following feature was introduced: “During the window of time in which players may perform magic bursts after a skillchain, the target's resistance to the skillchain's corresponding element(s) will now decrease.” Along those same lines, we are considering making the same adjustment to a wyvern’s breath attack. This effect would be added to the breath itself, so you won’t need to worry about intricate timing to reap the benefits.

In regards to whether we can make it possible to select the type of elemental breath to use, since it’s already possible to do this with support jobs and the drachen armet, we are planning to keep it as is for now.

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For the ability that makes wyverns more difficult to KO, would the recast time be really long? Is this going to be a base reduction in damage they sustain, adding a really potent regen, or something completely different?

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The recast time really depends on the effect we introduce, but we are not at the stage where we can divulge any details. However, we are aware that wyverns are quite easily KOed and feel this is a very important point.

As for the specific stats, we are thinking more along the lines of a stoneskin-like effect.

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Wouldn’t “adding an effect to Jump, High Jump, and Super Jump that reduces enmity of the player behind the dragoon” off-set its usability?

1) Since Spirit Jump/Soul Jump is so powerful, if a wyvern is present, Jump/High Jump is not used.
2) Since the current ability range is short, in order to shed enmity on a back-row job, wouldn’t they have to run into the enemy’s attack range? It seems like it would be necessary to increase the jump range as well as give separate recast timers for each one.

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We are also aware of these things and will be looking into it.

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Make the haste effect from Spirit Surge just like the haste of Hasso and Last Resort (desperate blows), not magic-related haste. Also, make it so our wyverns don’t disappear upon its use.

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Since it’s a two-hour ability, we will be looking into the haste-related aspect of the ability. However, in regards to wyverns disappearing, since players’ stats are boosted significantly more than when the wyvern is present we plan on keeping it the way it is for now.

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Make Angon’s defense down effect higher in priority so it cannot be overwritten.

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We will be looking into this along with the revamping of merit point job categories.

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Make it possible for wyverns to grow in size and let us ride on them.

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While we really want to make is possible to ride wyverns and have them grow in size, unfortunately system wise this is difficult. (It MIGHT be possible to make them bigger though...)

Thank you Camate.

if they get bigger im leveling drg...

bigger wyvern = cooler :p

But 'd rather them use real wyvern models ;p

So basically:

We resolved an issue where players who whose jobs weren't set as WAR or SAM were dealing more damage than we intended.

why in hell's name do people think SAM deals good damage in abyssea?

I can see outside, where the line is more skewed, but inside DRG beats the shit out of SAM

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since it’s a two-hour ability, we will be looking into the haste-related aspect of the ability. However, in regards to wyverns disappearing, since players’ stats are boosted significantly more than when the wyvern is present we plan on keeping it the way it is for now.

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Spirit Surge haste being JA based instead would be a HUGE improvement to our 2hr.

The other issue with our 2hr though, is that it effectively completely nullifies both spirit/soul jump effects as well as our AF3+2 set bonus. If we must absolutely lose our wyverns during 2hr (understandable) we should still retain the effects that are based on a wyvern being present. After all, you ARE merging its power with your own.

Fervor - Increases Attack Speed but reduces Wyvern Breath Accuracy.
Gives +10% Job Ability Haste to the DRG for 3 min.

I was thinking since SAM has a Haste ability, and WAR has attack abilities, why does DRG not have a single self buffing Job Ability besides Ancient Circle? Can we get a self buff ability like berserk/hasso/innin/velocity shot/last resort? Just something that either increases our attack, damage, weapon skill damage, critical hit rate or attack speed for a moderate duration of 3-4 minutes? I just think DRG deserves a self buff ability besides hasso/seigen from our subjob. Maybe a wyvern breath that increases attack, or haste?

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Fervor - Increases Attack Speed but reduces Wyvern Breath Accuracy.
Gives +10% Job Ability Haste to the DRG for 3 min.

I was thinking since SAM has a Haste ability, and WAR has attack abilities, why does DRG not have a single self buffing Job Ability besides Ancient Circle? Can we get a self buff ability like berserk/hasso/innin/velocity shot/last resort? Just something that either increases our attack, damage, weapon skill damage, critical hit rate or attack speed for a moderate duration of 3-4 minutes? I just think DRG deserves a self buff ability besides hasso/seigen from our subjob. Maybe a wyvern breath that increases attack, or haste?

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I was thinking about that, but...

Jumps are pretty powerful.

Hello Camate! I've been a career Dragoon for years and while I do welcome any and all job adjustments, some haven't been making a lot of sense to me.

It sounds as if you're stating that wyverns will either be able to:

A: Further reduce the magic defense of that elemental breath to cause more damage for other party members' magical attacks, as well as subsequent breath attacks.

B: Reduce the magical resistance of the elemental breath used to improve consistency of damage for party members' magical attacks, and subsequent breath attacks.

If A1, would it be a flat increase that is only applicable once, or stack-able through subsequent breath uses of the same element?

If A2, should your Wyvern use: Flame Breath -> Frost Breath, would the Fire defense down effect be over written by the by the Ice defense or would we have two separate defense downs on the target at this point?

Side-note: Any thoughts on allowing the Wyvern’s Breaths to inflict enfeebling effects on Enemies?
IE: Frost Breath - Paralyze

Now, as far as the survival of the Wyvern wouldn't it simply be easier to allow the Wyvern to be curable by the mages in the party? The biggest issue with Wyvern survival is versus notorious monster type enemies, which make quick work after Spirit Link and Pet related potions have been used. Even if you added a stoneskin effect to the Wyvern that lasted for 500 hit points, it still wouldn't save the Wyvern from immediately being taken down shortly after especially on enemies whom use magic often and area of effect abilities.

That in consideration, would it be possible if there was an implication where as the Dragoon description goes, Warrior's who leap in and out of the fray of battle. Why not allow our Wyvern to do the same, and remove the penalty for Dismiss?

Then if so, why stop there? Why not remove the penalty of not being able to re-summon your Wyvern if you dismiss it when HP isn’t full? I understand this seems much like Super Jump, but that's an impractical solution, especially when trying to maintain the monsters attention.

The above would allow a player to control, and secure his Wyvern from being killed during heated battles, while still being able to re-summon at will given the Wyvern isn't killed before hand. Keep in mind I am not saying lower the Call Wyvern Ability down to 10 minutes like Beastmaster Jug Pets, but honestly that's an idea too.

However, wishes aside if stoneskin-like ability is introduced, could it by chance have the effect of Sentinels' Scherzo or Earthen Armor?

Simply on the mindset that, having a 3-5 minute recast stoneskin for a Wyvern and having it absorb anywhere from 300-500 damage wouldn't really move the Wyvern away from death against a monster like Amarok. It would simply delay an inevitable outcome of the Dragoon waiting on a 20:00 Min recast to summon Wyvern.

As far as Jumps go, could it possible to apply a attribute for damage increase on High/Soul/Spirit Jumps much like that of Jump and it's correlation with Vitality?

This would make the use of the original Jumps more favorable in the given situation, as well as improve what the newer jumps can do in the occasion that the Wyvern is not alive, and highly benefiting when it is alive.

Personally, as far as hate shed for party members being applied towards: Jump, High Jump and Super Jump seems rather lackluster. In the event that a strategy involves tanking in front of the enemy, and should for some reason a tank position behind you, the use of these abilities would cause nothing but issues and even lead to a potentially deadly ending: IE Spiked Flail.

I've always wanted Jump, High Jump and Super Jump to provide positive effects, for the Dragoon and the Wyvern and or negative effects for the enemy much like what they do during Spirit Surge. Enmity Down for party members addition on paper seems like wasted potential and impractical to a point.

DRG, the way it's been developed thus far is too multifaceted. We're an accurate melee pet job with high tp gain that also heals and will soon be able to debuff the target with breaths. We also lower the mob's defense and erase others people's hate as well as shed our own.

DRG has too many little things it does but in the bigger picture our role is hazy. We're more hybridy than any other hybrid. We heal, we debuff, we shed hate, we DD, we shed other's hate, we gain lots of TP, we have high acc. Our traits and job abilities are so underdevleoped and lack focus that jobs like WAR DRK SAM MNK NIN have. Those jobs have specialties like damage, HP and counter, evasion, attack speed, TP gain etc.. I suppose our specialty is our wyvern but the wyvern too is underdeveloped. It's a floating Enfire with an HP bar, that occasionally adds 40-200 damage to our weapon skills, and heals us once a minute depending on subjob. It need more though.


Also...care to explain why the modifier for Geirskogul on the DRG relic WS is Agility? Why is the modifier for our Empyrean WS VIT? Why not put VIT on the MNK emyrean WS and put STR on the DRG one? After all MNK has more VIT gear available and DRG has more STR gear available. DRG can't be taken seriously when SE puts silly modifiers on our weapon skills to make us seem 'different'. I feel like DRG is the hipster of DDs. "Our emp weapon has VIT on it and our WS is 60% VIT unlike the rest of you melees with your 60% STR modifier on WS and +15 STR on your weapons..ooh we're different"

Also answer the age old question. Gungnir. Geirskogul. Shockspikes. WHY? Maybe if they were badass shockspikes that dealt 50-80 damage and had a high chance to stun or a super long stun duration. But in practice it's a normal shock spikes effect that deal 11-18 damage with low chance to stun. Why would SE have thought that would be useful for a job that struggled to get hate back in the days when our best WS (Wheeling Thrust) did 100-300 damage while SAM/WAR/DRKs were doing 5-10x more...

Bigger = Better, Make them bigger!!!!!!!!

oh no, don't give into the "We'll make the Wyverns bigger!" idea...it's gonna be Wyvern emotes all over again D:>

(In case you are not familiar of what I speak of, there was once an update where all the jobs got goodies...but Dragoon's just got Wyvern Emotes while everyone else got practical updates)

Yeah, that's what these people aren't getting is that WAR is literally getting 125% damage while we get a completely aesthetic addition. My beef is that all these changes aren't about me the Dragoon itself. My wyvern is not me, the black mage I hook up is not me, the newly top tier again SAM whose life I save isn't me.

What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

But hey, it's cool, the rep posted in here and showed us all a treat instead of talking about their plans for keeping our damage on the competitive edge, so let's all lay down and roll over like good boys.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Yeah, that's what these people aren't getting is that WAR is literally getting 125% damage while we get a completely aesthetic addition. My beef is that all these changes aren't about me the Dragoon itself. My wyvern is not me, the black mage I hook up is not me, the newly top tier again SAM whose life I save isn't me.

What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

But hey, it's cool, the rep posted in here and showed us all a treat instead of talking about their plans for keeping our damage on the competitive edge, so let's all lay down and roll over like good boys.

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I agree, the lack of attack on DRG is a big issue. Not to mention that unlike WAR DRG doesn't get much in terms of Critical Damage Bonus, other than AF3+2 legs (while WAR gets AF3+2 Feet with the same value, and 8% in traits).

Since critical damage is now a HUGE part of DRG (Drakesbane+Soul Jump make up for most of DRG's damage) DRG should at least get a bonus in critical rate, to offset the failure to bring good attack to the picture.

DRG is essentially forced to /SAM, like all two-handers. If you lose out on Hasso and STP(allowing a decent xhit) your DPS drops significantly. So it's not like /WAR is really an option.

Enmity control is nice, but on high defense, high agility enemies the enmity shedding capabilities of DRG are kind of useless, considering they won't be getting hate like WAR will.

This is indeed true, they haven't given Dragoon anything that makes them a true stand alone job. Regardless of the fact that it's a "Pet job" the pet is beyond fragile. Even with Empathy Shell V + Protect V. Not to mention Empathy transfers worthless buffs like Seigan and Hasso over from time to time.

Dragoon is in need of additional critical hit rate, and an attack booster to help it better compete. It seems like every other job is getting a solid damage increase, while we're basically keeping the same, and simply getting a wyvern beef that should of been there from the start.

The biggest thing DRG falls short in is Attack.

In Abyssesa DRG is amazing. Drakesbane for 4~7k and Spirit Jumps and Soul Jumps for 700~2k depending on DA TA.

Not to mention those jumps when TA'd or DA'd give 50~120 TP. On DRG I seem to WS more than on WAR, unless the target can TA or DA itself.

Yeah except Abyssea is over, so it's back to regular game mechanics.


At this point, I'd settle for at least Healing Breath V and for Elemental Breaths to be bumped up to roughly 1/2 WS damage. Dunno if that should apply to Smiting Breath as well however, as that would be somewhat crazy. But the little guy is definitely in need of a big power boost given the lack of durability.

Also, can we make DRG's "alternate" version of Super Jump function like classic jump? Leap into the air for a set period of time, totally invincible, and then come crashing down for double damage. Aftermath/DA/TA etc should also be able to proc on this.

Perhaps the dev team should consider Jump and High Jump giving Attack or Critical Hit Rate boost for a short duration instead of enmity down for other people :|

I wonder if anyone remembers Earth Greaves exist?

Wonder why they don't just fix the useless duration on those in concert with the new "Stoneskin like" wyvern ability.

Because duration alone wouldn't do anything. They said "Stoneskin-like" so hopefully it won't be simply Stoneskin. Hopefully it'll be something substantial that will allow the Wyvern to live through devastating attacks/magic.

It's just sad that right now, the only way to cure your Wyvern is to either A: Spam Spirit Link, whenever it's up. Spam your Cure Salve II for Pets, and or use the newly released pet medicine, which doesn't stack. It's just rather silly. Especially for Dragoon since out set bonus depends on our Wyvern as does our use of Spirit Jump, Soul Jump and use of Breaths both healing and offensive.

Stoneskin period, or stoneskin boots with 3 min recast, 15 second use 300 damage absorb, won't do a thing to change the outcome.

Stoneskin Boots can be used every 1 minute, and do not need to remain equipped.

Increasing the Duration of the boots to 5minutes~10 minutes would go a good way in helping Wyvern survivability.

plus when i used the phrase "in concert with", I meant The new ability and These boots if updated could work well together in keeping a wyvern alive.

I hope its just simply Scherzo/Migawari/Earthen Armor

And, if you know what Kingdom Hearts is,
maybe something along the lines of
Once More and Second Chance
(Ensures you retain 1 HP after taking damage from a combo) and (ensures you retain 1 HP after taking massive damage)

Along with a shorter recast on Spirit Link, or something else entirely that restores Wyvern HP.

Edit: Although Wyvern buffs are just diverging from what DRG really needs: More Attack OR (not and) more critical rate.

So loving the idea of having a large Ember to fight along side with :D
I could see doing campaign fight and feel even more powerful with her easily intimidating presence following close behind as we charge into battle.

Why not more attack -and- critical hit rate? Multiple jobs got these, Dragoon just wasn't one of them. I'd say both would be a good adjustment for the job.

Earth Greaves<20/20 0:30/[1:00, 0:30]>

Wyvern Stoneskin

The Stoneskin effect granted to the wyvern will absorb 200 points of damage.

So... this is what you want to be better in conjunction with a new 'Ability' and such.

1: 200 points of damage
2: Inventory -1
3: Time it takes to activate the boots.

I'm not sure what you mean by duration, but 5-10 min stoneskin I'm assuming is what you mean. If so, this 200 damage stoneskin probably wouldn't even out live Dia II. Let alone a Thundaja, Thundaga IV, Blizzaja Blizzaga IV tier caliber of magic. Maybe if they added Wyvern "New Ability" boosting items that allowed it to be much better, maybe.

I'm crossing fingers hard for a Scherzo/Earthern Armor type effect. That would be perfect, would be very Spirit Link friendly. So who knows.

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Originally Posted by Amador

Why not more attack -and- critical hit rate? Multiple jobs got these, Dragoon just wasn't one of them. I'd say both would be a good adjustment for the job.

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If I remember correctly, no one as of yet has a higher critical hit rate job trait other than lolfencer. Blood Rage and Impetus are the only ones, and I'm talking traits, not abilities.

I think that having both in excess would be overpowered on a lot of content. The only time DRG really doesn't shine is in high level end game play, in which case it needs a lot.

I think a good 10% would be fantastic for DRG, seeing as how WAR can cap crit rate in abyssea on Ukko's Fury anyway. So it's not like DRG is going to steal its thunder.

In my experience with SE, the most we can expect from spirit link is the removal of HP taken, full recovery from spirit link, and stoneskin equaling the HP of the dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

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Dragoon is more likely to compete with WAR as a support DD rather than as a main DD. Given what WAR's current capabilities and future capabilities, it is unlikely that SE will ever level the field. The best way to counter this issue when competing for a spot within the PT/Alliance is to offer total damage enhancements. Total damage enhancements aim to facilitate the damage of the group overall rather than specifically the player. For example, an AOE haste buff to complement the haste received from Spirit Surge, Wyvern-named gear, and Lancer's Pelerine. An existing example that has locked DRG's position in many scenarios has been Angon.

Quite frankly, if we can continue to receive bonuses such as Angon that facilitate total damage, it's foolish to compete for the top melee spot if our damage remains at the level of a heavy DD. Only one melee can occupy the top spot and the rest are second hand choices. Given the number of DDs in this game, it's smarter to focus on a melee position that will provide PT enhancements. As mentioned earlier, mages currently cripple the enemy's offensive, but only DNC has taken a serious step towards crippling the enemy's defensive capabilities. If DRG can latch onto a few of these techniques and add in a few AoE Buffs, our role is more secure than secondary DDs even if their raw output is greater because we'll provide enhancements to total damage.

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Originally Posted by Amador

So... this is what you want to be better in conjunction with a new 'Ability' and such.

1: 200 points of damage
2: Inventory -1
3: Time it takes to activate the boots.

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Depending on the Duration, You could activate it before a fight. During a fight its a different story, It'd be more like a "Pre-buff", Like when you pro/shell yourself before a fight. It would help your wyvern live a little big longer.

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I'm not sure what you mean by duration, but 5-10 min stoneskin I'm assuming is what you mean.

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The stoneskin from the boots only last 1 minute. I'm saying the boots are hindered that way, Extending the Duration to that of the spell would help. It fathoms me people complain about Wyverns dying then scoff off any way to help prevent it. Especially Items like Dawn Mulsum.

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If so, this 200 damage stoneskin probably wouldn't even out live Dia II. Let alone a Thundaja, Thundaga IV, Blizzaja Blizzaga IV tier caliber of magic. Maybe if they added Wyvern "New Ability" boosting items that allowed it to be much better, maybe.

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Except its 200HP your wyvern didnt have before, its the same reason people bother casting Shell, Protect, Phalanx, Utsusemi, Blink, Stoneskin, etc. They're all buffs that extend how long you can take a beating, Just like a 200HP stoneskin would.

I understand it doesnt sound like a lot of HP, but its 1 preventive measure. Plus you can remove the boots after using the effect.

They would really be like a Reraise Hairpin, Something you use before a fight as a preventive measure, not something you use during. It would just be a little extra boost to the Wyverns survivability. The only problem is their duration is too short. That was the improvement i asked for.

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I'm crossing fingers hard for a Scherzo/Earthern Armor type effect. That would be perfect, would be very Spirit Link friendly. So who knows.

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Of course that would be a good idea. My point was not that the new Ability should be a Stoneskin effect. In case you missed it it was

"Maybe with this new defensive ability, they can udpate Earth Greaves to be more useful/effective, I think both of them, the new ability, and the shoes, Might work well together in increasing our wyverns life span"

I'm asking they maybe buff Earth Greaves as a combined effort along with their already-in-motion plans to keep wyverns alive longer.

The biggest problem would be Inv-1 for some, But you could simply put them in your sack/Satchel after use. use them between fights. I'm not saying its a perfect solution, but like Dawn Mulsum, its another step in preventing wyvern death i think would work well with the new abilities.

Edit; Edited a lot.

I think AoE Haste is getting ahead of yourself, since Haste can already cap somewhat easily.

AoE attack bonus that can last longer than 45 seconds? K.

For instance: AoE Attack Bonus: Recast 5min, duration 3min. Boosts the user's Attack significantly, and his party's attack slightly. Slowly decaying the user's attack bonus over two minutes to the point of the party's attack bonus.

Or a similar ability regarding critical rate.

Has anyone ever mentioned Blood Rage is freaking over powered?

Last Earth greaves on my server was sold a month and a half ago.